Shocking truths about premades in Normal Warzones.

[rlionherz]

Funny thing is that rated could work if ppl just didn't care that much about having an optimal team. The 8-man requirement was implemented to discourage quitting during match.

 

Let's say everybody groups up, cross-guilds and everything. That could make for great rankd play as the ELO-ratings should only pit equal teams against eachother. And there should be a lot of teams

 

Instead everybody gets their a-team together and the queue dies.

 

damn right!

 

best part of random ranked groups is these ppl like to pvp, play their class, communicate and at least fight or die trying

[LarryRow]

Stopped reading around the part where you said that you couldnt play rateds without the more or less perfect rooster

 

It's true. If my guildy Foghorn Leghorn isn't on, we don't queue.

 

Why the hell u love so much mid.....we have the ball ppl stay in mid, sith are scoring and reps are all in mid

 

Which is a viable strategy to get control of the ball back, except that some imp stealther throws a grenade and snags it while all the pubs are still trying to click on the cc breaker.

[islander]

Funny thing is that rated could work if ppl just didn't care that much about having an optimal team. The 8-man requirement was implemented to discourage quitting during match.

 

Let's say everybody groups up, cross-guilds and everything. That could make for great rankd play as the ELO-ratings should only pit equal teams against eachother. And there should be a lot of teams

 

Instead everybody gets their a-team together and the queue dies.

 

I actually agree with this. Too much e-peening about ranked sucks the life out of it.

[POPsi]

Greetings fellow players. I have a lvl 50 sawbones, assault vanguard and a marksman sniper on the Tomb of Freedom Nadd server. I definitely am not the best scoundrel healer around, but i consider myself to be above average in terms of skill and understanding the game mechanics.

 

On the said server there are 4 competitive PvP guilds per faction more or less, who do both normals and ranked. So, its likely you ll get a ranked wz pop during peak hours at least.

 

So, why do we even join the normal q you will ask ? To begin with, some days we just lack a certain key class/cannot get a proper set up. Unfortunately, you simply cannot get a Commando to dps, you cannot q and hope to win without a shadow defending west and definitely need a sage for the bubbles. Long story short, ranked warzones team set up is greatly influenced by some "metagame rules" and ofcourse FoTM. Lets face it, one joins a PvP oriented guild in order to win ranked warzones.

Also, atleast in ToFN the pvp guilds more or less know if and when the other guild/guilds are going to form a team. Obviously theres no point in keeping your team up and waiting if you know noone is gonna q.

 

Obviously even if subs are actually going up it gets harder to recruit players who have both the skill and knowledge to play at a "competitive" level. Therefore, there is only one solution left, and thats normals.

 

Now. Do "hardcore elite facerolling and so on" guilds enjoy facerolling undergeared PUGS? Answer is obviously NO. Do we enjoy getting in warzones to see 4 green 14k recruits ? NO. Do we enjoy losing a game because the enemy premade got better randoms while ours are incompetent? NO. This isn't how PvP should be. Fyi hardcore pvping comes with the proper mentality. True pvpers don't qq about OP classes and gain satisfaction not from winning, but from winning the very best opposition.

 

Lets face it, PvP endgame is supposed to be Ranked Warzones. Sadly, its really hard to set up, given of course you intend to do it properly, since there is no real incentive for people to play. Personally i 've slacked plenty of times, choosing a good pint over ranked. Therefore, on plenty of cases, normal warzones is whats left.

 

There is also a double standard about premades. I have yet to see one of those self called "casual" players whine because he got teamed up with a premade, that in the end gave him an easy win. I think that your problem is not that premades are making PvP unfair, since an effortless win should annoy you equally. Its only the defeats that seem to brake the game. Please. I 've soloqd a bit during the past few weeks and i dare say there were plenty of games where 3 out of 4 participants were undergeared.

 

Now, about that 4 man ranked stupidity thats lurking around. You ppl being for it, merely choose to have Bioware place the problem on somebody elses lap, since the maps atm are not designed for 4v4 matches. It will more likely completely brake PvP instead of fixing it.

 

Last but not least. Atleast the premades i run do not capitalise on voice communication in order to win. We may or may not be on our Teamspeak server, but most of the times we win because we observe the battlefield and use common sense before using an ability. (Observation test: How many times did you bother pressing Map hotkey, check your weak node defenders name and keep an eye on his Healthbar on the Raidframe? This way you need not rely on him reporting INC. You just either report it yourself or move to help him on ur own. This wins games.)

 

Bottomline, in my opinion forcing people to not play with their mates in a MMO is just plain wrong and it will solve nothing. Even if players were allowed only to solo q for normals, then these very forums would flood with OMG NABS EVERYWHERE threads asking for another solution. The only way that might actually work is making ranked easier to set up by properly addresing class balance and perhaps giving players an incentive to play ranked (Perhaps mods/enhancements to make maxing easier after a certain rating for comms/credits - just an idea).

 

PS : Is it true that the SW:TOR PvP team is the one who came up with the bombing spec for Bright Wizards on WaR? You ppl actually managed to make something even worse. Congratulations.

 

Let me translate: Oh noes, we are 1 person short to get the best possible balanced team up for ranked, so let's just go and roflstomp some pugs instead for easy comms with no effort. Don't tell me you don't enjoy playing against helpless pugs, because every single time I'm on the other end of the you know what, the premades seem to be pretty much enjoying the slaughter at the spawns. If they didn't they would not queue up for non-ranked with half a ranked team. So you Sir, are not telling a truth, because I yet have to see a pug vs premade match very the premades don't kill for fun. If I don't enjoy something, I don't do it.

 

On another note, you say you play for challenge. And then contradict yourself saying you only play ranked with the best possible setup. I feel confused. Where is the challenge in that?

Edited December 12, 2012 by POPsi

[Groncho]

i like this post

been pugging randomly in Tofn (lag for me there is pretty bad) and the PVP level there is good (most of the real good Pvp'rs are from Calypho !!!! )

sadly op, ppl will ever find easier to complain than to improve the way they play

 

I hope devs can find another way to balance the Ac composition of a ranked team without it been gamebreaking. The new gear gaps are an improvement in this field. Maybe we are gonna have more fun pvping in the next days

 

+10

[Digimanbyte_ID]

 

Bottomline, in my opinion forcing people to not play with their mates in a MMO is just plain wrong and it will solve nothing. Even if players were allowed only to solo q for normals, then these very forums would flood with OMG NABS EVERYWHERE threads asking for another solution. The only way that might actually work is making ranked easier to set up by properly addresing class balance and perhaps giving players an incentive to play ranked (Perhaps mods/enhancements to make maxing easier after a certain rating for comms/credits - just an idea).

 

.

 

Bottom line, no one cares about you playing with your friends especially on a dead server so you can ROLFstomp them just for PvP entertainment.

 

Don't like being forced to wait for premade to join the queue. Break up in solo and deal with it like an adult. Premade vs PuG's is plain wrong and only caters to malicious morons who want to spank the crap out of people in PvP and while chatting about their life and give coordination. So no, infact I hope in the future your just forced to solo in PvP against premades and then comeback and tell me how its still a wonderful system.

 

No point in playing a game thats fixed. Especially if you pay to play it.

[Debaucher]

Let me translate: Oh noes, we are 1 person short to get the best possible balanced team up for ranked, so let's just go and roflstomp some pugs instead for easy comms with no effort. Don't tell me you don't enjoy playing against helpless pugs, because every single time I'm on the other end of the you know what, the premades seem to be pretty much enjoying the slaughter at the spawns. If they didn't they would not queue up for non-ranked with half a ranked team. So you Sir, are not telling a truth, because I yet have to see a pug vs premade match very the premades don't kill for fun. If I don't enjoy something, I don't do it.

 

On another note, you say you play for challenge. And then contradict yourself saying you only play ranked with the best possible setup. I feel confused. Where is the challenge in that?

 

You kinda mad ?

 

Lotsa ppl who obviously know nothing about ranked talk about the perfect balanced team. Lets see what this is and some reasons behind choosing the listed below classes.

 

2x Tanks: 1x Guardian Simply because this AC adds a lot of utility and because its an amazing ball carrier in HB.

1x Shadow. Reason is, best weak side defender, really good ball carrier in HB plus the pull for defence.

 

So we excluded the Vanguard. Vg utility is really good, mainly due to stealth scan/harpoon stun. However, compared to the other two tank classes, the survivability CDs are just really worse. Oh, and most VGs just preffer to pump up the damage.

 

2x Healers: 1x Hybrid Sage for Bubble stun, 1x Scoundrel, because of the really good instant casts. (Its kinda hard to cast in ranked. If you get plenty of freecasts, it means you are vs a team thats average, or below). Note there are other combinations as well. Commando healer is viable combined with either of the two above. But if you run w/o a sage that has bubble stun, you are at a big disadvantage.

 

4DPS : One should be a combat sentinet for spec'd Transendance. The utility of this ability is simply too great to ignore. Afterwards, its all about whos online. Viable classes are : Gunslinger, Assault Vanguards (Pull, really good burst), Focus Guardian/Sent (No need to comment here), DPS Shadows (They do serious work).

 

Lemme get something straight. I 've played with every possible healer and tank setup, even included a commando DPS in ranked. And won. Not all the games, but didn't get insta gibbed. Problem is not only me. Its the rest of the group who whines about set up.

 

As for the reason an optimal set up is needed on ToFN? Hmmm well.... hurrrr.......... for the same reason i don't do nude runs in ranked. Its silly to give yourself a disadvantage, since the other guilds will have a viable set up as well. So, Optimal set up VS Optimal set up = bigger challenge, since theres no gear gap. Only a couple of classes vary.

 

Bottomline, you don't need 8 specific classes. But you just shouldn't q for ranked without certain ACs. Asking us to go to ranked w/o a proper set up so you may or may not get higher chances of winning won't solve the obvious matchmaking problems for either of the sides.

[POPsi]

You kinda mad ?

 

Lotsa ppl who obviously know nothing about ranked talk about the perfect balanced team. Lets see what this is and some reasons behind choosing the listed below classes.

 

2x Tanks: 1x Guardian Simply because this AC adds a lot of utility and because its an amazing ball carrier in HB.

1x Shadow. Reason is, best weak side defender, really good ball carrier in HB plus the pull for defence.

 

So we excluded the Vanguard. Vg utility is really good, mainly due to stealth scan/harpoon stun. However, compared to the other two tank classes, the survivability CDs are just really worse. Oh, and most VGs just preffer to pump up the damage.

 

2x Healers: 1x Hybrid Sage for Bubble stun, 1x Scoundrel, because of the really good instant casts. (Its kinda hard to cast in ranked. If you get plenty of freecasts, it means you are vs a team thats average, or below). Note there are other combinations as well. Commando healer is viable combined with either of the two above. But if you run w/o a sage that has bubble stun, you are at a big disadvantage.

 

4DPS : One should be a combat sentinet for spec'd Transendance. The utility of this ability is simply too great to ignore. Afterwards, its all about whos online. Viable classes are : Gunslinger, Assault Vanguards (Pull, really good burst), Focus Guardian/Sent (No need to comment here), DPS Shadows (They do serious work).

 

Lemme get something straight. I 've played with every possible healer and tank setup, even included a commando DPS in ranked. And won. Not all the games, but didn't get insta gibbed. Problem is not only me. Its the rest of the group who whines about set up.

 

As for the reason an optimal set up is needed on ToFN? Hmmm well.... hurrrr.......... for the same reason i don't do nude runs in ranked. Its silly to give yourself a disadvantage, since the other guilds will have a viable set up as well. So, Optimal set up VS Optimal set up = bigger challenge, since theres no gear gap. Only a couple of classes vary.

 

Bottomline, you don't need 8 specific classes. But you just shouldn't q for ranked without certain ACs. Asking us to go to ranked w/o a proper set up so you may or may not get higher chances of winning won't solve the obvious matchmaking problems for either of the sides.

 

Basically what I said... if you don't have the ideal setup for ranked, you don't q, you do non-ranked instead where you can instagib uncoordinated teams. Then I ask. Why? You said you like the challenge. There is no challenge in that. Let's assume you mean what you say about the challenge part... yet you still do the opposite, therefore making the game not fun for yourself, and not fun for the opposite team. Don't misunderstand me, I am not the type of guy who starts complaining during wzs, I suck it up and carry on. But I don't understand that you say one thing, and do the opposite. If you don't enjoy crushing pugs, queue solo yourself, don't do premades in non-ranked, end of story.

[Debaucher]

Never said i don't solo q. Did that plenty when i was between jobs during mornigs, still do it when i am too tired to play in a coordinated fashion and just want to finish my dailies. So yes dear fellows, i do solo q and i do get stomped.

 

But on ToFN at least, noone qs without combat sent and shadows. To be honest, the only classes that are excluded are commando DPS and scrapper. And theres not so many of them around anyway.

[Lithy]

 

Last but not least. Atleast the premades i run do not capitalise on voice communication in order to win. We may or may not be on our Teamspeak server, but most of the times we win because we observe the battlefield and use common sense before using an ability. (Observation test: How many times did you bother pressing Map hotkey, check your weak node defenders name and keep an eye on his Healthbar on the Raidframe? This way you need not rely on him reporting INC. You just either report it yourself or move to help him on ur own. This wins games.)

 

Right here. I say this all the time. No body seems to get it really, or says its not our job to watch that. Well if you want to win, it damn well is your job to be aware of everything. When a door gets caped with no call, I blame myself for not watching health bars. Yes, he SHOULD have said something but you can't rely on the PUGs. it's that simple.

[Leafy_Bug]

I vote we rename ranked warzones to 'hold your eyes all the time because boy, oh boy,this is PVP'. In any case, every top PVP guild on my server, Coral included, is using what BW gave them and that is stunlocking the opponent team. Don't hate the player, hate the game .

[TheBigBee]

Funny thing is that rated could work if ppl just didn't care that much about having an optimal team. The 8-man requirement was implemented to discourage quitting during match.

 

Let's say everybody groups up, cross-guilds and everything. That could make for great rankd play as the ELO-ratings should only pit equal teams against eachother. And there should be a lot of teams

 

Instead everybody gets their a-team together and the queue dies.

 

That would be called pugging and no it would not make for great ranked play

[TonyDragonflame]

Looks like 2-3% of all players play ranked and harass all these others 80% except 10-15 who play together with ranked ones.

[Mancer]

I vote we rename ranked warzones to 'hold your eyes all the time because boy, oh boy,this is PVP'. In any case, every top PVP guild on my server, Coral included, is using what BW gave them and that is stunlocking the opponent team. Don't hate the player, hate the game .

 

I vote we rename ranked warzones to (bite your pillow all the times because boy, oh boy,this is gonna hurt).

 

Edited December 12, 2012 by Mancer

[Veniras]

That would be called pugging and no it would not make for great ranked play

 

You don't get it. Ranked has one DEFINTE quality that unranked doesn't. It TRIES to match teams based on ELO.

 

If everybody pugged in ranked, it might make for funnier gameplay as teams might be more evenly matched.

[Jadescythe]

FYI to the crowd advocating for better geared players to do ranked: Ranked warzones are not meant to separate the good from the bad, they are meant to separate the good from the great.

 

Please stop complaining that there are good players in your warzones and work to get the community as a whole to step their game up. There is too much blame being placed on those who play the game correctly (i.e. playing their class to potential, focusing on objectives, etc) and it leads to the community fostering a philosophy of mediocrity, which leads to a continuous cycle of everyone on your PUG team being terrible and the calls for separate queues to increase.

[Leafy_Bug]

You don't get it. Ranked has one DEFINTE quality that unranked doesn't. It TRIES to match teams based on ELO.

 

If everybody pugged in ranked, it might make for funnier gameplay as teams might be more evenly matched.

 

 

I guess I got a lot of ELO if I end up playing with 2k plus teams out there.

[islander]

FYI to the crowd advocating for better geared players to do ranked: Ranked warzones are not meant to separate the good from the bad, they are meant to separate the good from the great.

 

Please stop complaining that there are good players in your warzones and work to get the community as a whole to step their game up. There is too much blame being placed on those who play the game correctly (i.e. playing their class to potential, focusing on objectives, etc) and it leads to the community fostering a philosophy of mediocrity, which leads to a continuous cycle of everyone on your PUG team being terrible and the calls for separate queues to increase.

 

Although your points do have merit, I'd be more inclined to blame the imbalances in PvP which ranked warzones accentuate, currently.

Edited December 12, 2012 by islander

[Veniras]

I guess I got a lot of ELO if I end up playing with 2k plus teams out there.

 

You might be very right. I would not allow a matchmaking if the "ELO gap" was "too wide".

[Harrasment]

FYI to the crowd advocating for better geared players to do ranked: Ranked warzones are not meant to separate the good from the bad, they are meant to separate the good from the great.

 

Please stop complaining that there are good players in your warzones and work to get the community as a whole to step their game up. There is too much blame being placed on those who play the game correctly (i.e. playing their class to potential, focusing on objectives, etc) and it leads to the community fostering a philosophy of mediocrity, which leads to a continuous cycle of everyone on your PUG team being terrible and the calls for separate queues to increase.

people are terrible coz they wanna stay terrible, or simply they dont wanna raise theyr experience. SWTOR warzone are rly easy to understand, simple fact is that there is a low % of ppl that actually using theyr brain for improve them selves and that is ruining the pvp experience to who wanna do serious wz. thats all, ppl that premade must premade and stomp those carebears.

 

and note that i dont have any premade and never done ranked, so dont come here and say that im a premader

[Pvtcarnage]

FYI to the crowd advocating for better geared players to do ranked: Ranked warzones are not meant to separate the good from the bad, they are meant to separate the good from the great.

 

Please stop complaining that there are good players in your warzones and work to get the community as a whole to step their game up. There is too much blame being placed on those who play the game correctly (i.e. playing their class to potential, focusing on objectives, etc) and it leads to the community fostering a philosophy of mediocrity, which leads to a continuous cycle of everyone on your PUG team being terrible and the calls for separate queues to increase.

 

What he says, or see my sig

[Boyana]

As far as I know, on ToFN, there are some premades that love to queue up together in order to get 8-man premade.

 

As for the OP, not sure what is the point of this thread and I am trying to see the both sides of this story. The truth is, making the model of matching premades against premades can not hurt you nor your guild. You said yourself, you do not like to win against 14k players, so this would be the perfect way to assure fun for both sides.

 

Also, about Voice Chat..it would be silly for the people who play rated together for couple of month to even need a Voice Chat for normal warzones. You guys should already know every move of each other.

 

Long story short: I do not care just wanted to make a comment and be cool.

[FatEdd]

Greetings fellow players. I have a lvl 50 sawbones, assault vanguard and a marksman sniper on the Tomb of Freedom Nadd server. I definitely am not the best scoundrel healer around, but i consider myself to be above average in terms of skill and understanding the game mechanics.

 

On the said server there are 4 competitive PvP guilds per faction more or less, who do both normals and ranked. So, its likely you ll get a ranked wz pop during peak hours at least.

 

So, why do we even join the normal q you will ask ? To begin with, some days we just lack a certain key class/cannot get a proper set up. Unfortunately, you simply cannot get a Commando to dps, you cannot q and hope to win without a shadow defending west and definitely need a sage for the bubbles. Long story short, ranked warzones team set up is greatly influenced by some "metagame rules" and ofcourse FoTM. Lets face it, one joins a PvP oriented guild in order to win ranked warzones.

Also, atleast in ToFN the pvp guilds more or less know if and when the other guild/guilds are going to form a team. Obviously theres no point in keeping your team up and waiting if you know noone is gonna q.

 

Obviously even if subs are actually going up it gets harder to recruit players who have both the skill and knowledge to play at a "competitive" level. Therefore, there is only one solution left, and thats normals.

 

Now. Do "hardcore elite facerolling and so on" guilds enjoy facerolling undergeared PUGS? Answer is obviously NO. Do we enjoy getting in warzones to see 4 green 14k recruits ? NO. Do we enjoy losing a game because the enemy premade got better randoms while ours are incompetent? NO. This isn't how PvP should be. Fyi hardcore pvping comes with the proper mentality. True pvpers don't qq about OP classes and gain satisfaction not from winning, but from winning the very best opposition.

 

Lets face it, PvP endgame is supposed to be Ranked Warzones. Sadly, its really hard to set up, given of course you intend to do it properly, since there is no real incentive for people to play. Personally i 've slacked plenty of times, choosing a good pint over ranked. Therefore, on plenty of cases, normal warzones is whats left.

 

There is also a double standard about premades. I have yet to see one of those self called "casual" players whine because he got teamed up with a premade, that in the end gave him an easy win. I think that your problem is not that premades are making PvP unfair, since an effortless win should annoy you equally. Its only the defeats that seem to brake the game. Please. I 've soloqd a bit during the past few weeks and i dare say there were plenty of games where 3 out of 4 participants were undergeared.

 

Now, about that 4 man ranked stupidity thats lurking around. You ppl being for it, merely choose to have Bioware place the problem on somebody elses lap, since the maps atm are not designed for 4v4 matches. It will more likely completely brake PvP instead of fixing it.

 

Last but not least. Atleast the premades i run do not capitalise on voice communication in order to win. We may or may not be on our Teamspeak server, but most of the times we win because we observe the battlefield and use common sense before using an ability. (Observation test: How many times did you bother pressing Map hotkey, check your weak node defenders name and keep an eye on his Healthbar on the Raidframe? This way you need not rely on him reporting INC. You just either report it yourself or move to help him on ur own. This wins games.)

 

Bottomline, in my opinion forcing people to not play with their mates in a MMO is just plain wrong and it will solve nothing. Even if players were allowed only to solo q for normals, then these very forums would flood with OMG NABS EVERYWHERE threads asking for another solution. The only way that might actually work is making ranked easier to set up by properly addresing class balance and perhaps giving players an incentive to play ranked (Perhaps mods/enhancements to make maxing easier after a certain rating for comms/credits - just an idea).

 

PS : Is it true that the SW:TOR PvP team is the one who came up with the bombing spec for Bright Wizards on WaR? You ppl actually managed to make something even worse. Congratulations.

 

? Unfortunately, you simply cannot get a Commando to dps ?,

 

I say go and ask a chap called Zacharyus on The Shadowlands server, I think that is how his name is spelt, but I think he may kind of put your theory in a cupboard to fester. The guy is a DPS animal as a Mando, the best I have ever seen, he has all the tricks up his sleeve, knows that class like the back of his hand and he knows it. But he is a one off, but get a group of Mandos with Sages, and you can pretty much kiss your ace goodbye, the same applies if you have a group of Mercs with Sorcers/Operatives, again not such an easy task for any group going up against it if they are well drilled and know their classes. So it can be done, I have seen it done, Mandos with Sages groups, almost impossible to beat, not to be underestimated, and like I say, the same goes for if you have a group of well geared Mercs with Sorcers/Operatives.

 

Not to say that the Mando and Merc do need something to make both classes actually on par with the other classes, but I tip my hat to Mercs and Mandos for sticking it out, it shows you what a real PVPer looks like.

 

Cheers

 

FatEdd

[vengefuler]

premades should come against pug so they will feel better and skilled

[Aricin]

I normally never post here, but had to now.

 

Calling total BS on OP. Then queue up solo. You and your mates will likely be spread across both teams. Problems solved.

 

Dress it up all you want. If you really cared about competitive play then don’t queue up as a group for non-ranked.