NO Addons please. There is another solution!

[Aleemah]

Some proper roleplaying addons would be a great addition... not to mention a chat logging feature. I could care less about any combat addons, I don't play this game for endgame BS anyway.

[Baconmonster]

I don't understand why people would be against dps meters and threat meters. More Information is always a good thing. I get the feeling that a lot of people are complaining about dps meters because they weren't able to put out the dps needed when the meters were up. Literally that is the only feasible reason I can find for someone to be against them. Sorry, but if you're so afraid of what your dps will be then find a guild where it doesn't matter. Plus with threat meters. How is that ever a bad idea? Should I not use vent either? Should I just wing it on boss fights? I usually don't have problems holding threat in this game, but it's nice to know when someone is about to make the boss go ape **** and have it stampede through the ops group. These things are necessary evils for raiding, dps meters and threat meters specifically.

 

Also, are you telling me a mod like Auctioneer would be a detriment to the game? Are you going to look at me with a serious face and tell me the current Auction House is even remotely decent (because it isn't). Granted the economy has to establish itself and gain an identity on most servers but the point still stands. Mods make a lot of things better aside from raiding. I just fail to see the draw to a no mod system.

 

I'm not going to assume that everyone against these is incompetent and afraid of them because it will show that incompetence but I fail to see any benefit from knowing where you stand damage wise, or on a threat meter, or who's taking too much damage in raid, or any number of things that I can and will yell at someone for when raiding. If you're putting out subpar dps I want to know, if you're taking unnecessary damage I want to know, if your healing is subpar I want to know. It goes just as well the other way, I'll commend people as well as criticize. For me meters are more about holding people accountable for things than anything else. I understand that you want one to appear at the end of an op or a flashpoint, but if someone's failing and wasting everyone's time you need to know on the spot, not after the fact. You need to know specifics not some general overview, you could be doing great damage to trash and **** damage to bosses, under your system how will I tell the difference?

Edited February 8, 2012 by Baconmonster

[PaxFelix]

I don't understand why people would be against dps meters and threat meters.

 

Then you apparently have not read much of the 15 pages of this thread!

 

The fact is that there are not only strong feelings on both sides, but there are also some very compelling arguments on both sides. It is not immediately black-and-white obvious, if one actually considers the arguments on both sides of the matter thoughtfully.

 

The OP is an excellent idea for a middle of the road solution, and quite worthy of consideration.

 

My personal preference, though maybe no one else's, would be for some kind of combat meter whose data are visible only to the player him- or herself. That way, the theory crafters could move beyond theory to evidence in constructing optimum specs and rotations, but we would each enjoy the privacy we expect IRL.

 

Or perhaps limit access to the data to one's guild, at most. But the arguments opposing a completely public accessibility to one's GS or its equivalent would be respected.

 

And we wouldn't feel like we were in the WC on the open street.

[Baconmonster]

Then you apparently have not read much of the 15 pages of this thread!

 

The fact is that there are not only strong feelings on both sides, but there are also some very compelling arguments on both sides. It is not immediately black-and-white obvious, if one actually considers the arguments on both sides of the matter thoughtfully.

 

The OP is an excellent idea for a middle of the road solution, and quite worthy of consideration.

 

My personal preference, though maybe no one else's, would be for some kind of combat meter whose data are visible only to the player him- or herself. That way, the theory crafters could move beyond theory to evidence in constructing optimum specs and rotations, but we would each enjoy the privacy we expect IRL.

 

Or perhaps limit access to the data to one's guild, at most. But the arguments opposing a completely public accessibility to one's GS or its equivalent would be respected.

 

And we wouldn't feel like we were in the WC on the open street.

 

Apologies, I wrote the initial post at a bad time of the day for me and didn't use the tact necessary to facilitate a proper intellectual discussion about the topic. Let me rephrase my stance. I understand the arguments that people make; while I for the most part don't agree with their arguments. I do understand, however, that while I may not agree with their reasoning that doesn't make it any less compelling to other individuals, it has simply failed to win my support.

 

I agree wholeheartedly with mod mediation. Only allowing specific mods such as custom UI, meters, auction house UI, and a few others. I played WoW since it's inception, I would be a stalwart supporter of not allowing something like Deadly Boss Mods into the game. That way people would learn the fights instead of having a mod learn it for them.

 

To give some background, I have raided in WoW since the beginning of it's endgame up until the first few months of Cataclysm. Most of this time I was the Raid Leader of my guild which contained many friends I made in the game that I still stay in contact with to this day. My job as raid leader was made unbelievably easier with mods like DPS meter (which eventually included all relevant info not just dps). Honestly, I don't think I would have been able to do it if not for a few select mods that helped facilitate information gathering. I'm not saying my stance is infallible I am simply providing background to show that I'm not just some guy who has no idea what he's talking about.

 

Let me sum up my stance as succinctly as I can. I don't agree with the stance of no mods, I don't think I would be able to be convinced otherwise. I agree with mod regulation and restriction. I like the OPs idea for ops info, however, I would like it infinitely better if it provided information per boss fight not per ops/fps. I also think that certain mods like aucitoneer would help to grow pathetic economies on a lot of servers, and mods like gatherer (not sure how I feel about this one) could help as well.

 

What I'm trying to get at is there are too many good things that mods add to the game for them to be denied, however, a compromise between the two sides could be made to regulate and restrict what mods can be created. Again apologies for the short and less than thought out post I made earlier. It was the product of a hasty and angry (not at this something else) state that my mind was in at that point. I hope this post adds more to the discussion than my earlier post.

[eudaemonea]

I like the OP's suggestion. That would work very nicely to allow people to see where they rank vs. someone else without it impacting the run in progress. I also liked the suggestion of having an in game option to see your personal stats without the ability to link anything.

 

I played WoW since release and from my point of view, once the damage meters, gear scoring and raid mods became widely used, it gave people "tools" that enabled them to justify (to themselves at least) treating others badly that may not be doing as well.

 

A DPS/Healing meters for example doesn't really tell you squat -- it's just a raw number. World of Logs (in WoW) on the other hand can be a huge tool to determine where problems are and show the dps junky that he actually is doing a load of things wrong, even if his dps number overall is high. An in game dps meter just allows someone to wave their epeen around... usually with someone else being on the receiving end of it. I personally don't miss that bs at all.

 

There are some thing on the other hand that the game really needs but maybe instead of asking for mods, why not explain to the devs what you're wanting/needing and have them put it directly into the game for everyone to benefit from.

 

Right now off the top of my head we really need a way to see target of target (especially if you're healing or dpsing) and there needs to be some way to determine if you're about to pull off the tank. I'd like to be able to focus an enemy target in raids to watch who THEY target. The auction house needs some major tweaking (it's beyond annoying to use). Things like that... make suggestions. Don't just slap a mod on it and think that fixes anything. It only fixes it for you and those that use that mod. Not the entire community.

 

I'm very much against any mod that could be used to inflict others with negativity and abuse. That includes gear scoring mods, dps mods, healing mods, etc. Once you put those things in game, it's only a matter of time before people start mistreating each other like we saw so prevalent in warcraft. Right now, I've had ZERO groups flip out on any one person when we wipe. There's no discussion of someone's dps sucking. Heals are kind of black or white (they lived, they died). The TEAM approach to everything is so nice that I'd much rather never know what someone's damage is at. It's refreshing after years of warcraft brats making everything into a "i'm better than you" scenario.

 

Just enjoy the content. Make suggestions to the devs to add features. Let's leave the mods out of this game.

[Emeda]

I don't understand why people would be against dps meters and threat meters.

 

Basically its because they dont want people to see that they are not doing their job. Instead they hope that by not having damage meters/recount etc that they can be carried though any content by everyone else.

[eudaemonea]

Basically its because they dont want people to see that they are not doing their job. Instead they hope that by not having damage meters/recount etc that they can be carried though any content by everyone else.

 

Incorrect. It's to stop the elitist ***** type attitudes from those marginally better than someone else.

[PaxFelix]

I like the OPs idea for ops info, however, I would like it infinitely better if it provided information per boss fight not per ops/fps. I also think that certain mods like aucitoneer would help to grow pathetic economies on a lot of servers, and mods like gatherer . . . could help as well.

 

Bacon, you & I are in complete agreement with regard to all three of these.

 

And Eudaemonea is in the quantum center of the bull's eye about needlessly opening the door to griefers' abuse -- just don't go there. World of Logs is exactly the kind of useful tool I would throw my support behind, FWIW, and I think a lot of anti-modders just might as well.

 

Devs, please consider something like this reasonable, fully pragmatic, approach.

Edited February 9, 2012 by PaxFelix

[borghe]

I used to be on the "no add ons" crowd. Then again I play naked WoW with the exception of DBM.

 

but man... this game needs add ons. There are so many deficiencies in this game's engine and UI that if they just opened the UI to mods, at least then the community could fix some of this crap.

 

no /roll or /random

the GCD visual that they seem to be pissing off one side or the other with every change they make

the stupid little bugs in there like sprint defaulting to off when you die (I know this has been changed) or your companion not summoning sometimes when you get off a speeder or flight path. or lag causing your distance to not bring abilities now in range inside of range, etc.

 

I get people who don't want healbot or an easy button... that's fine and all (though nothing is forcing you to use it, just like I'm not forced to use it in wow). but man... there are so many things wrong with this ui that we need to be able to mod it just to fix the serious issues.

[apla]

I get people who don't want healbot or an easy button... that's fine and all (though nothing is forcing you to use it, just like I'm not forced to use it in wow). but man... there are so many things wrong with this ui that we need to be able to mod it just to fix the serious issues.

 

What's so bad about (the current) Healbot?

[Konow]

No threat meter. For retarded dps to know when to use their threat dump.

No target of target.

No proper focus target.

No way of actually seeing any dispellable debuffs apart from blowing up the ops frames so big you can't see anything of what's going around you.

No mouseover macros.

No combatlogs. No way of knowing what actually killed you or where the dmg is coming from, either because missle travel time is off and you die before you actually die and the flytext doesn't show, or flytext is blocked by your release button.

Messy flytext, numbers stacking ontop eachother.

Blinding and annoying UI, to the point where it becomes a medical issue for some.

Annoyingly small, alternatively REALLY BIG nameplates.

Awful hotbar options, on the plus side you strengthen your neck muscles looking from right to left all the time.

Clunky pet control, unless you have an olympic gold medal for finger acrobatics. No way of rebinding pet controls.

Horrible horrible auctionhouse features.

Annoying chat functions, where you can't have 2 convos going in /w without going out of your way and scroll click some name, or type in the persons name each time you want to answer.

Mail system could also use some work. Like when you're sending several mails, you get booted back into inbox for each mail you send.

 

Many small things that could've been fixed in week 2 if they only opened for addons. Instead we are test subjects, paying for playing what is effectively still a beta.

You, or someone you know might think this is ok. On the other hand, I and many I know don't.

And all points made about how/why addons are bad, is moot. Nobody's forcing you to use them.

On the other hand that would also take some of the workload off BW which are obviously struggling. Making them able to focus on other stuff which clearly needs fixing, like every other bossfight. Itemization, and loot systems. Balancing out proffesions and crafting. And so on and so forth.

Edited February 9, 2012 by Konow

[PaxFelix]

retarded dps to know when to use their threat dump.

 

The insult is not helpful. Plus, it is a bigoted slur against people with a medical condition through no fault of their own.

 

Neither is it accurate, as the dps who does not quickly catch the fact that s/he is aggro'ed very likely does not realize it for all the UI problems you yourself listed.

 

Nobody's forcing you to use them.

 

True but not the point. Addons like Recount, GS, and other providers of griefer ammo fundamentally change the game organically, whether one uses them or not.

[Master-Nala]

Why exactly do you not want addons available? If you don't like them, don't use them.

 

Because the developers start balancing encounters around the use of addons.

 

Agree with the OP.

[Cadrigger]

Please please please please let me customize my UI. PLEASE!

[VarKoE]

Read 30 pages. Quit reading but mostly agree with op

 

Customize ui - yes (resize, move, skins, better visibility on combat effects, and target's target seem to be a no brainer)

 

Threat and dps meters - no, rt feedback makes encounters too easy.

I am ok with after encounter reports

 

Target dummy with dps feedback - that would help build questions particulaly if built with various boss attributes.

 

I would like some convenience mods but prefer it to be in house.

[yuzna]

Agreed. I want to be able to customize the UI, which apparently they are working on, and I also would love a target of target. Other than that couldn't care less, I love that there is no gearscore, dps meters and agro monitors. Makes the game more interesting and not all about numbers.

[todorovh]

To sum it up to only "argument" against add-ons is "i won't get invited to raids". That's just pathetic.

 

I don't really care whether add-ons will be 3rd party or not but I'd very much like to be able to:

 

1. Customize my UI - different people have different preferences - GIVE US OPTIONS, Bioware, please. As far as I've seen they're already working on this.

 

2. Meters/ Combat log - having a way to quantify my performance is of very high importance to me, regardless of whether I'm playing The Old Republic, a racing game ( do that a lot as well ) or I'm at work. Basically if I'm doing a bad job - I'd like to know it, so that I can work on identifying and fixing the issues.

 

I do understand that ignorance can in fact be bliss, but if someone just wants to run around, doing their own thing, having fun in their own way - no one is stopping them, why should I be denied the possibility of enjoying the game in my own way ?

 

Please Bioware, let us have options.

[HellFlame]

Because the developers start balancing encounters around the use of addons.

 

Agree with the OP.

 

So theres actually something worth killing?

The encounters atm are a joke and if you dont think so we know why you disagree with addons. plain and simple.

[Perkunas]

So theres actually something worth killing?

The encounters atm are a joke and if you dont think so we know why you disagree with addons. plain and simple.

 

I wish there was a "like" button on the forums.

[Chunkie]

I'm in the camp that says NO to add-ons.

 

Those who say it's a requirement for end-game raiding is absurd. You don't NEED it. You use it because you need a crutch. You're telling me you can't do any of the current raids in the game without meters or combat logs? They aren't in the game right now, so you are doing them, aren't you?

 

In the end, all they do is make the game easier. And in response to add-ons making the game easier, the devs design their games around the meters and add-ons. I've seen this in EVERY SINGLE GAME i've played. So in the end, it doesn't make the game easier, it makes the add-on a requirement.

 

You don't need combat logs or meters to tell a good player from a bad one, or even an average one. You can tell just by the way they play. Just like you don't need a stopwatch to tell an olympic sprinter from your average joe sprinting. You do need a stopwatch if you want to tell which olympic sprinter will win the 100M, but you don't need it to tell who will win between an elite runner and a normal runner. Same with games. It's easy to tell which is the proficient player and which is the inexperienced or bad player, and you don't need combat logs or add-ons to do that.

 

You can play the game perfectly fine without it. All it will do is set up the developers to create the game around the add-ons.

[Baelarn]

I want addons, but I'm happy to keep them either in house, or have stringent outlines for third party.

 

Real time threat meters.

Post fight DPS meters. *

Fully customisable UI.

Better GTN functionality.

 

And that's. About. It.

 

*As in, after the boss fight ends, a "scoreboard" comes up with DPS, healing, protection, damage taken, sources, all that kind of information broken down into easy to follow categories so you can analyse who's doing what. Should be after every boss fight (kill or not), NOT at the end of a raid. It would be pointless at the end of the raid, as it doesn't allow you to discern what's going wrong and where on progression fights, etc.

[Exertim]

For those of you that missed it:

 

Last but not least; add-ons are still under discussion, but there's no current timeline for when that functionality might be implemented. While add-ons would give a lot more potential options (assuming a robust add-on community), there will still always be many people who want to use the game's default UI (new players, for example!). Therefore it's important for us to ensure the UI that we have works well, hence our ongoing development and expansion of UI options.

 

Still under discussion, but with the GCD cooldown UI fiasco that's been ongoing for several patches, I wouldn't be surprised if the devs over at Bioware have finally begun to realize that it would probably be a good idea to support player made addons/UI due to everyone having different preferences.

[ptoss]

Rather than add-ons, just PROVIDE them so we don't have to, BW.

[Sakki]

Those who say it's a requirement for end-game raiding is absurd. You don't NEED it. You use it because you need a crutch.

 

In the end, all they do is make the game easier. And in response to add-ons making the game easier, the devs design their games around the meters and add-ons.

 

I don't understand this reasoning. Add-ons like DPS parsers and threat meters aren't crutches. A player installing them will not instantly and magically improve. Add-ons like these are analytic tools that help improve the player's game and the understanding of encounter mechanics. One can only improve if adequate information is given.

And devs don't see an add-on and think:"this will make the encounter too easy, we need to ramp it up!". They see an encounter being beaten by skilled players, who achieved said skill by analyzing their performance, and only then decide to create more challenging content.

 

Just like you don't need a stopwatch to tell an olympic sprinter from your average joe sprinting. You do need a stopwatch if you want to tell which olympic sprinter will win the 100M, but you don't need it to tell who will win between an elite runner and a normal runner. Same with games. It's easy to tell which is the proficient player and which is the inexperienced or bad player, and you don't need combat logs or add-ons to do that.

 

Very bad analogy, as a human being you have an innate ability to estimate the passing of time. You might not know exactly how big the time difference is between the two but you will clearly sense there is a difference, as you stated yourself. This is just not true for games. Do not try and tell me you can somehow sense wether that sentinel in your group is doing more DPS than that sage. Without even so much as a combat log it is just plain impossible.

 

You can play the game perfectly fine without it.

 

Yes, I can. But it takes away an aspect of gaming that I thouroughly enjoy, which is analyzing my performance and improving on it when necessary or possible. I'd even argue this is the whole point of end-game for me. If BW says they're in this for the long run, they had better allow me to continually improve my game or I will get very bored, very soon.

[Scotland]

add-ons are for bads who can't play.