NO Addons please. There is another solution!

[Raansu]

if you dont want them dont use them, the rest of us that take the game remotely seriously meanwhile will keep demanding them until our subs run out

 

You don't need a crutch to take a game seriously.

[Tikume]

im in favor of keeping addons out of the game, along with macros etc.

 

yeah dps/hps meter etc after fights i dont mind, they dont affect play much, just tell you how you did.

Edited January 30, 2012 by Tikume

[ddayyy]

Oh comon, we really need AT LEAST a DPS / threat meter. That's just standard for any mmorg. Without that, our overview of what kind of damage we are doing is so little. It makes the fights less interesting for me, it's really essential that they implement a DPS meter.

 

I want to see when I improve, and I want to compare myself to other people in the raid. Otherwise it's SO much less interesting.

 

And how are we going to test class balance without a combat log or dps meter?? It really leaves you so much in the dark.

 

If you don't like DPS meters, don't use them!

Edited January 30, 2012 by ddayyy

[Cynistra]

You don't need a crutch to take a game seriously.

 

I bring points in almost every single posts I made here on this thread, that supports the implementation of addons. I did it in an extremely polite manner. You come and insult people for their opinions without bringing any argument whatsoever to support your point.

 

Can you even name the said harmful addons? I bet you I can name 10 beneficial, well-built addons that improves the gameplay experience for every bad one you are going to bring on.

 

I even stated that the devs can decide how they open up the addons and what they let the "modders" actually implement in the game as probably being the best compromise. Yet it is not enough for you, you must continue to insult people for their opinions on what would make the game better.

 

Everyone has had the chance to read you by now, and your point is this one: "Addons are bad because I said so". the blatant emptiness of your argumentation makes it hard to believe you even think before posting.

[Delezar]

No Addons, People stop being lazy and learn how to play and dont be reliant on 3rd party apps that make games boring hense why people are leaving one certain MMO!

 

I totally agree.

[Raansu]

I bring points in almost every single posts I made here on this thread, that supports the implementation of addons. I did it in an extremely polite manner. You come and insult people for their opinions without bringing any argument whatsoever to support your point.

 

Can you even name the said harmful addons? I bet you I can name 10 beneficial, well-built addons that improves the gameplay experience for every bad one you are going to bring on.

 

I even stated that the devs can decide how they open up the addons and what they let the "modders" actually implement in the game as probably being the best compromise. Yet it is not enough for you, you must continue to insult people for their opinions on what would make the game better.

 

Everyone has had the chance to read you by now, and your point is this one: "Addons are bad because I said so". the blatant emptiness of your argumentation makes it hard to believe you even think before posting.

 

Because there is no argument. Addons are a crutch. It's an issue of you not willing to adapt. You'd rather have something tell you what to do rather then learn from experience. Healbots, raid timers, gear score etc... all they do is make players lazy and force developers to work around the "popular" addons eventually making them required. It can also heavily affect pvp balance by giving blatant advantages to the addon user, and asking the devs to pick and choose what addons can and cannot be let through that it would turn into such a colossal task that it would take away from more important issues and eventually they just wouldn't do anything about it.

 

Addons are a crutch.

[Cynistra]

I totally agree.

 

They are leaving "a certain mmo" because their last expansion was crap, not because of addons. The whole L2P excuse is pathetic, because most addons help you achieve just that. Tell me, who would you like to get in your raid group: Someone doing EVEYTHING he can to improve his performance or the guy refusing to use addons because he doesn;t like em?

[Cynistra]

Because there is no argument. Addons are a crutch. It's an issue of you not willing to adapt. You'd rather have something tell you what to do rather then learn from experience. Healbots, raid timers, gear score etc... all they do is make players lazy and force developers to work around the "popular" addons eventually making them required. It can also heavily affect pvp balance by giving blatant advantages to the addon user, and asking the devs to pick and choose what addons can and cannot be let through that it would turn into such a colossal task that it would take away from more important issues and eventually they just wouldn't do anything about it.

 

Addons are a crutch.

First, thank you for responding in a decent post.

 

I am not asking devs to review addons one by one, just don't let modders code what you dont want them to code, it is, in fact, pretty simple.

 

I, for one, played a watchman sentinel. I have some dots to apply to my target. It would be VERY convenient for me to be able to easily know which one of the 4 watchman dots is mine. Is it game breaking? heck no, but very annoying when I have to guess and clip my dots by mistake.

 

As far as pvp goes, a simple addition to the coding of the game automatically disabling all addons upon entering a WZ could be the solution.

 

For people caliming GS killed the raiding, I am sorry, but as I stated before, there is a simple feature in the game already called "inspect", which show all your gear, you can't get away with your greens in a NMM OP, sorry.

 

And for those claiming DPS meters broke "THE game", pretty simple (I assume) for the devs not to let modders have access to other people's numbers if they dont want to. I only use DPS meter to test my builds and support my own theorycrafting.

[TehFuZz]

Personally, I don't think there's any harm in having heal/DPS meters.

 

Other than that, I personlly prefer addons not being permitted. Anything that serves a purpose to "make your job easier", whether it be my macro'ing multiple abilities to single keypresses, putting MASSIVE messages on your screen to indicate procs (PRESS 3 NOW NOOB!!!), none of it is needed.

 

People are just too used to having this kind of stuff given to them on a silver platter, and a lot of people, it would appear, have forgotten how to play without them.

[Soazak]

I can understand some people don't want them, but why don't you want me to have them?

 

If you don't like addons, don't use them.

 

They're not a crutch, it's just different information that some of us like to have. If you believe skillfull gaming comes from as little information as possible, play with the UI off (Ctrl+U) completely or something. Hardcore.

[apla]

First of all, there are absolutely no arguments against non-combat addons. I want a gear management addon to manage my four sets, and more freedom in arranging my chat screens and stuff wouldn't hurt. The GTN interface could use a little something too. Whenever looking at an item tooltip, I want to have it compared to what my companion that I don't have with me has. I don't see how this could possibly affect your game experience. If you are afraid of gearscore, I can live with addons not having access to inspect information, but I'll also point out that you can always be inspected, and that group leaders will always be free to choose their members based on whatever criteria, be it gearscore or the color of your eyes.

 

As for in-combat addons, I want the relevant information to be displayed in exactly the way I want. If I asked one of the HCI people in my company about awkward information display and told them I wasn't allowed to change that, they wouldn't know whether to laugh or cry. However, asking players the same, I'd get "noob", "l2p", "adapt" and all that. Some DPS specs are hihgly dependent on procs, and trying to figure out exactly how many stacks of a buff you have from the constantly shifting buff bar is stupid. I play at 2560x1440, and those buff icons are tiny and away from the game action. Does anyone really think the challenge of this game should be in looking at a dozen small icons with numbers on them, shifting around wildly? Wouldn't it be good to have the information readable and close to the action so that you can focus on the action itself? Would it really be so bad that, out of the four DOTs of the same name on the target, you actually knew which one was yours?

 

Also, I don't play a healer (yet), but I don't want to heal without exactly configurable ops frames and mouseovers. Again, hiding the information should not be how the game is challenging. Information should always be available in the format I want, and the challenge must be in the decision of how to make the most out of the situation.

 

In combat, I don't want an addon that makes an action do different things based on the situation. Whatever you do must be your own choice, but the information that you base that decision on must be readily available.

[Whatsalightsaver]

All this thread tells me is that half of the SWOTR population is made of people who couldn't cut it in WoW. There are no rational reasons for not allowing add ons. All reasons stated are just smokescreens for "I don't want to be held accountable for my performance". That's it. That's what it boils down to. If people didn't want to use add ons, they wouldn't, but this thread is saying "Don't even allow them in game" because what they're really saying is "When we wipe I don't want them to see it was my fault".

 

To those against add ons, wanting to hide in anonymity is not only immature, it's pathetic. Spend time learning your class, practice, and then you won't have to fear the meters. It's as simple as that. Bioware, if you don't allow add ons, you will have an empty game faster than you could even imagine.

[SageH]

I read a lot about people missing addons. "I need healbots, dpsmeters, threatmeter..." You can do just fine without these, it's just a different game, we just have to adapt. Healbot, for instance, turns a very interesting game into something pulled out of a 90's Nintendo!

As for the meters, I have a suggestion: an <End Flashpoint/Operation Report>, just like in the end of Warzones. Voilá, you can consult who's doing their jobs right. DPS, Healing, Protection, MVP vote also (why not?)... It's all there.

Please NO addons. Don't turn this very enjoyable game into a big load of numbers popping out of my screen...

 

 

P.S. I do admit that some customization options on UI are needed.

 

I want real time data, not end of Operation data. That might be fine in PvP due to the nature of PvP but it isn't fine for Operations, esp for guilds like mine who make it a point to clear the most difficult content as quickly as possible just for the achievement of doing so. And while we have accomplished completion of all 16m Nightmare content, I would really love to know how I was doing during our wipes, or what the hell was killing me when I would suddenly explode out of nowhere.

[Vargasisarocker]

Just fun to see people say you cant manage raids without meters, I wonder how we managed to raid hardcore content 6 days a week in everquest for 6 hours at a time. We had no add ons at all. Addons that tells you to move to the left, to the right, push button a, push button b just sickens me.

 

And now to the dps meters and threat meters, same there, never needed that stuff in other games, you actually watch what other ppl do in your grp and you will see whos a good player. Paying attention is a wonderful thing.

 

I do agree with being able to change your UI a bit is not a bad idea, but why addons? Just make it doable in game. Not that hard.

 

Patience, like the game as it is, some stuff are meant to be different if all was the same in all games, why then even play other games...

[apla]

 

And now to the dps meters and threat meters, same there, never needed that stuff in other games, you actually watch what other ppl do in your grp and you will see whos a good player. Paying attention is a wonderful thing.

 

Out of curiosity, how would you deduce someone's threat generation just by observing them? By watching how many attacks of each kind they perform? I can't even see my own damage numbers when I tank, all I see are the boss' balls. I have NO way of knowing what kind of damage I do. Not to mention how I died when I just get one-shot out of the blue.

Edited January 30, 2012 by apla

[flowqz]

Just fun to see people say you cant manage raids without meters, I wonder how we managed to raid hardcore content 6 days a week in everquest for 6 hours at a time. We had no add ons at all. Addons that tells you to move to the left, to the right, push button a, push button b just sickens me.

 

And now to the dps meters and threat meters, same there, never needed that stuff in other games, you actually watch what other ppl do in your grp and you will see whos a good player. Paying attention is a wonderful thing.

 

I do agree with being able to change your UI a bit is not a bad idea, but why addons? Just make it doable in game. Not that hard.

 

Patience, like the game as it is, some stuff are meant to be different if all was the same in all games, why then even play other games...

 

its not about making things easier... its about making things less painfull like a dot tracker where u can actually see which dot is yours and what time it will run out. or a dps/heal meter if u wanna see which class may be more effective for job x y z. or a freakin targets target.

 

if u raid "hardcore" most addons wont be finished till u already killed them / on many encounters u have to write your own timers (yes SOME timers will become very important if they actually make pve hard e.g. timers/cd trackers on spells u may want to avoid)

[rhyona]

I stopped reading at Vodka and then fell to the floor in laughter.

 

*ahem*

 

Anyways, L2P without your crutch. When people refer to add-ons forcing other to use them, they are not referring to just PvE. Add-ons can and will give an extreme advantage to PvP players, thus forcing specefic add-ons to be used for content in the game.

 

Add-ons are nothing more than a crutch, simple as that. If you want your precious add-ons then go back to WoW.

 

You know, you can continue to insult me but at least I'm trying to offer a solution to people who have different opinions on whether addons should be in the game or not. Thanks for those who did read my post about the idea I suggested, I appreciate it.

 

As for your comment about addons being a crutch? I would have disagree with you, if a player is skillful at the game than addons are not going to do much for them. They are not going to get any extreme advantage in pve or pvp. For example, these are the addons I used during World of Warcraft. I used a total of 4 addons and I never felt left out or had a disadvantage in pve or pvp. I had X-perl for Unit Frames, Omen for threat meter, a dps meter and the Titan bar that listed my money, mail, location and gear at the top of my screen. I used the blizzard bars for my abilities with key bindings.

 

Addon List

X-perl Unit Frames

Omen

Dps Meter

Titan

 

Can you please tell me what advantage I really had over other players? Come on, where is this huge crutch you're talking about. For the record, I was also a gladiator on my warrior for arena's. I don't understand what this huge advantage in pvp you're talking about that addons give? Can you please explain what addons you think give a huge advantage in pvp?

 

Anyway, I hope you realize that most people use addons so they can improve their UI from the standard one. Hell, we can't even move our UI and it would be so useful if we could and replace it with something that looks better. The second reason that people get addons is for information that they use to improve their skill and to learn more about their class. Such as the dps meter and Omen, most people get those so they can learn information on what their dps is like in their current rotation. They then theory craft to improve their skill and dps by coming up with a new rotation. The same goes for threat with me theory crafting how to do more threat with a new rotation.

[Vxsen]

This thread reminds me of an incident from WoW. During WotLK, around the time one of my alts was closing in on level 80, and I was beginning to get into the pre-heroic end-game 5-mans, I was thrown into an Occulus PUG with a level 80, raid-geared paladin tank. We fought our way through the first boss fight without much trouble, when this tank noticed he had done something like 50% of the damage, and we had the following conversation:

 

Overgeared tank: ***?!!! DPS GET YOUR GAME ON!

 

DPSer 1: What do you mean?

 

Overgeared tank: I’m doing all the friggin’ work! Just because you’re 80 doesn’t mean you belong in heroics! LEARN YOUR CLASSESS! GET SOME GEAR!

 

DPSer 2: We’re not all 80 yet.

 

DPSer 3: And this isn’t a heroic.

 

Overgeared tank: Huh? Ohhhhhh craaaaapppp. I meant to join a heroic….

 

[Overgeared tank has left the party]

 

This Overgeared tank wasn’t really doing anything more than his usual 9-6-9 rotation (or whatever it was called), but when he checked his DPS meter he decided he was being over-worked and we were all leeching off him. You might say that was a special situation, but the core truth is that this kind of thing happened all through the game. Remember back when even our alts had T-9 badge gear? And even the lazy players were pulling 3.5K in heroics? And then some newbie in green/blues would find his way into our PUGs and do something like 1.5K? We probably all managed to complete those instances in full groups of 1.5K dpsers at launch, but now that we were all pulling 3.5K in our T-9 badge gear, suddenly this guy in his blue/greens wasn’t doing his part and consequently the rest of us were being overworked! Well, of course someone had to say something! And someone always did, right?

 

Overgeared DPSer 1: I don’t pay $15/month to pull newbies through PUGs, brother.

 

Overgeared DPSer 2: Join a guild group if you want help.

 

Overgeared Healer: Your DPS is holding us up, so we’re gonna boot you now. Be sure to use the free time to check out Elitist Jerks so you can get some proper idea’s about spec and rotation.

 

Overgeared Tank: Seriously, dude. At the very least, you gotta be able to out-dps the tank!

 

[Newbie has been removed from the group]

 

I don’t miss any of that….

[Vargasisarocker]

Out of curiosity, how would you deduce someone's threat generation just by observing them? By watching how many attacks of each kind they perform? I can't even see my own damage numbers when I tank, all I see are the boss' balls. I have NO way of knowing what kind of damage I do. Not to mention how I died when I just get one-shot out of the blue.

 

How I see that? Easy if you group with ppl and they overaggro often its kind of obvious they arent playing there clas right. Like if I see tank charge mobs and gets stunned, then I dont hit full ae or go full out, then I take it slow, cause playing stuff controlled is way better than some crazy go full out dps all the time cause I want to top a meter...

[apla]

How I see that? Easy if you group with ppl and they overaggro often its kind of obvious they arent playing there clas right. Like if I see tank charge mobs and gets stunned, then I dont hit full ae or go full out, then I take it slow, cause playing stuff controlled is way better than some crazy go full out dps all the time cause I want to top a meter...

 

Some DPS classes easily out-threat me while we're both playing our classes right. But they have no way of knowing if they're about to do so. What you listed are trivial cases. Luckily, so far we haven't really had mobs or even bosses that one-shot people, and getting aggro isn't too dangerous. But really, some of us have little if any way to gauge our performance, because we don't even see our damage numbers.

 

Oh, and if you say we're obviously not playing right, give me the meters to prove it? Oh wait, you can't.

[ferroz]

I read a lot about people missing addons. "I need healbots, dpsmeters, threatmeter..." You can do just fine without these, it's just a different game, we just have to adapt. Healbot, for instance, turns a very interesting game into something pulled out of a 90's Nintendo!

You have no idea what healbot does, do you?

 

Please NO addons. Don't turn this very enjoyable game into a big load of numbers popping out of my screen...

That's the nice thing about addons... they never have to be on your screen.

 

So whether we have addons or not, you never have to have it be a big load of numbers popping out of your screen, since you can just continue to not use them.

[flowqz]

 

Overgeared DPSer 1: I don’t pay $15/month to pull newbies through PUGs, brother.

 

Overgeared DPSer 2: Join a guild group if you want help.

 

Overgeared Healer: Your DPS is holding us up, so we’re gonna boot you now. Be sure to use the free time to check out Elitist Jerks so you can get some proper idea’s about spec and rotation.

 

Overgeared Tank: Seriously, dude. At the very least, you gotta be able to out-dps the tank!

 

[Newbie has been removed from the group]

 

I don’t miss any of that….

 

"newbie has been removed" ... guess u were the newbie cause u got overgeared guy 1 2 3 4 so the only slot remaining for u is the 5th aka the kicked guy.

 

and sorry but if u couldnt outdps a tank in wow i know why they kicked u.

 

"You have no idea what healbot does, do you?"

 

y this guy made me laugh 2... a unitframe addon makes this game like an old nintendo game?

Edited January 30, 2012 by flowqz

[ferroz]

Because there is no argument. Addons are a crutch.

No, they are not all crutches. Some of them may be (the onus is on you to demonstrate this still), but certainly many of them aren't.

 

Even for the few that are, a crutch is necessary for someone with a broken/crippled/missing leg...

 

It's an issue of you not willing to adapt.

 

You'd rather have something tell you what to do rather then learn from experience.

No, I'd like to learn from experience. And have addons.

 

Healbots, raid timers, gear score etc... all they do is make players lazy and force developers to work around the "popular" addons eventually making them required.

this looks like an "argument by gibberish" fallacy.

 

You clearly have no idea what healbot does in wow and are just looking at the "bot" part of the word. That's a common mistake.

 

Raid timers do less to make players lazy than allowing them to use ventrilo... do you crusade against it's use?

 

gear scrore doesn't make players lazy, though it does allow them to snub people who have sub-par gear for having sub-par gear without having to look at their gear. It doesn't make them lazy. It doesn't make them elitist either (they'll be elitist about something else, without it, like saying "tanks need 18k health" in tor)

 

at no point does any addon actually become required... you may run into individuals that want you to have it to play with them, but there are always plenty of people who don't care either way.

 

It can also heavily affect pvp balance by giving blatant advantages to the addon user,

Ventrillo gives a bigger advantage; do you crusade against it's use?

 

and asking the devs to pick and choose what addons can and cannot be let through that it would turn into such a colossal task that it would take away from more important issues and eventually they just wouldn't do anything about it.

False; they can easily limit the addon api and restrict it if they find something has slipped through.

 

Addons are a crutch.

repeating your unsupported assertion doesn't actually make it any more true. Edited January 30, 2012 by ferroz

[ferroz]

This is short sighted, lemme know if this sounds familiar...

 

GEARSCORE: "we don't want to know our Gear score, we'd rather know ur skill..."

"if you dont like it dont use it"

I saw people posting requests with gear scrore requirements in general

 

I pugged 3-8 raids a week all through wrath, and never once ran with someone who asked about gear score.

Edited January 30, 2012 by ferroz

[Vargasisarocker]

Some DPS classes easily out-threat me while we're both playing our classes right. But they have no way of knowing if they're about to do so. What you listed are trivial cases. Luckily, so far we haven't really had mobs or even bosses that one-shot people, and getting aggro isn't too dangerous. But really, some of us have little if any way to gauge our performance, because we don't even see our damage numbers.

 

Oh, and if you say we're obviously not playing right, give me the meters to prove it? Oh wait, you can't.

 

Just look how they play its not hard. Are they overaggroing often, are they on the wrong mobs, are they helping with cc, are they using right abilties that the right time... will you see this in your precious stats? There are games that are close to 13 years old and still being played where there never been any meters and funny enough, they actually get by there anyway. I wonder how....