Did they ever consider halving the current subscription rate also?

[Macetheace]

I'm just wondering if they ever considered this.

 

IMO - F2Play is great for a large chunk of fresh players who don't want to get into the whole mmo consumes my life thing, but want to play the game. IMO - it will potential greatly increase the active player base, and I know that the hope will be that it would encourage more to switch up to full subscription.

 

However, I feel that while games like WoW exist, and it is perceived that SWTOR can't quite compete with that product, halving the current subscription rate cut in half may hurt cashflow short term, but long term could greatly increase subscription base, which is what the game really needs, they could always go back up to current price at the release of a new expansion.

 

The way I'm looking at it, is a person paying £8.99 for wow, now has a choice to pay £4.49 for a better game, that's cheaper, akes SWTOR a winner. 1.5 mil will pay £8.99, but if cutting your subscription in half gains you 6 million sbscribers, plus a 4million F2P base, you can work alot with that.

[terrorfistjab]

Knowing what we know now about the trial...er...ftp option, I would have preferred this to it. I bet a couple of my friends would have come back with a reduce sub fee compared to how they all backed out after learning the specifics of the ftp option. Of course with this proposal they wouldn't have been able to get the community to accept micro-transactions so easily. Edited November 13, 2012 by terrorfistjab

[Andryah]

I doubt it. Instead they are following the industry standard practice of giving you back ~1/3 of your subscription price in in game shop currency. In this case... that's 500 cartel coins per month for you as a subsciber.

[Urael]

I doubt it. Instead they are following the industry standard practice of giving you back ~1/3 of your subscription price in in game shop currency. In this case... that's 500 cartel coins per month for you as a subsciber.

 

To put this in numbers:

 

Subscriptions "effectivley" drop to $10 a month if you are an active user of the CC store and stay within your stipend.

[terrorfistjab]

To put this in numbers:

 

Subscriptions "effectivley" drop to $10 a month if you are an active user of the CC store and stay within your stipend.

 

But that is only "IF" you are an active user of the CC store. Not to speak for the OP, but if one hypothesizes that the reduce idea was implemented instead then there would be no CC store, and all the content of the CC store would either naturally be worked into the main content for the game, or not developed and that time and effort spent on other items and content for the main game, or just not developed at all. But I'm willing to bet that a lot of this stuff would have turned up in the main game without the CC store. Whether that is the case or not I still believe the OP''s suggest would have been a better model for them to try, especially considering their version of ftp.

[TonyACT]

Knowing what we know now about the trial...er...ftp option, I would have preferred this to it. I bet a couple of my friends would have come back with a reduce sub fee compared to how they all backed out after learning the specifics of the ftp option. Of course with this proposal they wouldn't have been able to get the community to accept micro-transactions so easily.

Agree that it is an extended trial option - in fact it HAS to be as no company can provide this sort of content for free.

[Andryah]

Whether that is the case or not I still believe the OP''s suggest would have been a better model for them to try, especially considering their version of ftp.

 

I disagree.

 

Freemium access models have proven very viable and successful for both players and game producers. Steeply discounted subscription prices have not.

 

With the coin stipend... players get coins (and why would they not use them....even if it's only for items to sell on the GTN?) which actually costs Bioware nothing in terms of sunk cost.... and yet they still earn $15 of revenue for every subscription as well as coin revenues from non-subscribers.

 

Freemium is a much more tested and proven successful model for MMOs. It's the lower risk approach from a business perspective.

Edited November 13, 2012 by Andryah

[sankalp]

I disagree.

 

Freemium access models have proven very viable and successful for both players and game producers. Steeply discounted subscription prices have not.

 

With the coin stipend... players get coins (and why would they not use them....even if it's only for items to sell on the GTN?) which actually costs Bioware nothing in terms of sunk cost.... and yet they still earn $15 of revenue for every subscription as well as coin revenues from non-subscribers.

 

Freemium is a much more tested and proven successful model for MMOs. It's the lower risk approach from a business perspective.

 

Still does not discount that fact that there is another MMO on the market that is following the subscription model and is successful. If something is good, you don't give it away for free. The only reason BW/EA need to entice people to play with Freemium is because they underachieved and now need to make the best of a bad situation.

[TonyACT]

Still does not discount that fact that there is another MMO on the market that is following the subscription model and is successful. If something is good, you don't give it away for free. The only reason BW/EA need to entice people to play with Freemium is because they underachieved and now need to make the best of a bad situation.

Well - they under-achieved or their original business plan was unrealistic. Let's face it, WoW is a statistical outlier in the MMO market, and if anyone REALLY thought they would match it they were in cloud cuckoo land.

[Andryah]

Still does not discount that fact that there is another MMO on the market that is following the subscription model and is successful. If something is good, you don't give it away for free. The only reason BW/EA need to entice people to play with Freemium is because they underachieved and now need to make the best of a bad situation.

 

Look more closely at the dual access model for this game. Very little is actually free.... and the model is well established in the industry and will evenutally replace subscription only access in MMOs completely.

 

And if by "another MMO" you mean WoW..... it's loosing multi-milion subs over the last year and cannot hold player base 4 months after an expansion any more. All WoW has is a few million (we don't count the 6 million Asia token based accounts as they are not subscriptions) players with so much time and energy invested in their characters they are afraid to move on to something else.

[Andryah]

Well - they under-achieved or their original business plan was unrealistic. Let's face it, WoW is a statistical outlier in the MMO market, and if anyone REALLY thought they would match it they were in cloud cuckoo land.

 

Yep yep.

[terrorfistjab]

I disagree.

 

Disagreement accepted but if I may, let me make a few counter points.

 

Freemium access models have proven very viable and successful for both players and game producers. Steeply discounted subscription prices have not.

 

Yes, freemium models have proven to be successful in the past for other companies and until I learned the details, I was hopeful that this would be the case for SWTOR. Unfortunately their version of a freemium game I feel will turn off a lot of gamers. And keep in mind EA doesn't have the best reputation in the gaming community, so whether unfair or not most will be more critical of their model, thus it would be in their best interest to make it seem like they are trying to do what is best for the game and the community like a reduce subscriptions. And while I don't doubt you on your statement that discounted subscriptions have not, could you give me some current example of their failures?

 

With the coin stipend... players get coins (and why would they not use them....even if it's only for items to sell on the GTN?) which actually costs Bioware nothing in terms of sunk cost.... and yet they still earn $15 of revenue for every subscription as well as coin revenues from non-subscribers.

 

Using the coin stipend and wanting that CC store in the game in the first place are two very different things. And since you brought of the sunk cost issues why not just let subscription player buy coins with in game credits. It is really all about promoting good will with your customer base and while I am being critical here I will say that the 500 coins is the best thing to come out of this ftp model all things considered.

 

Freemium is a much more tested and proven successful model for MMOs. It's the lower risk approach from a business perspective.

 

It maybe lower risk but EA is big enough they could take the risk and well, and lets face it, their reputation as a whole could use it even if it didn't generate the maximum amount of profits. Companies like Valve and in the past Apple( not really anymore) have proven that reputation and consumer opinion of your company can be a profitable commodity unto itself.

[JacenHallis]

To put this in numbers:

 

Subscriptions "effectivley" drop to $10 a month if you are an active user of the CC store and stay within your stipend.

No. Not really.

 

You see, if I'm a subscriber, I'm paying $15 + tax a month. If I get 500 cartel coins, it's not effectively $10, as I'm still paying $15 out of my checking account. I don't have five more dollars every month than I would have before free to play. Of course, someone will inevitably spin it this way. It's like getting buying a new car for $20,000, which is $1000 less than you would pay at another dealership. You didn't save a thousand dollars; you spent 20 thousand.

 

The cartel coin stipend is a way to placate the subscriber. It's also a way to lure the subscriber to spend more money. "I bought a pack for 360 coins, and I got a cool pink color crystal. Hmm... I have 140 coins now. I guess I can buy the what I need to get another pack to see if I get a second crystal for my other saber." Or, "Hmm... I really want to make that Pureblood Jedi, but I don't want to level up a pureblood of another class to do it, and I don't want to pay the insane amount of credits to unlock it. I guess I can buy a few coins to get me up to the 600 I need. I'd only need 100 to do it."

 

That's good marketing.

Edited November 13, 2012 by JacenHallis

[sankalp]

Look more closely at the dual access model for this game. Very little is actually free.... and the model is well established in the industry and will evenutally replace subscription only access in MMOs completely.

 

And if by "another MMO" you mean WoW..... it's loosing multi-milion subs over the last year and cannot hold player base 4 months after an expansion any more. All WoW has is a few million (we don't count the 6 million Asia token based accounts as they are not subscriptions) players with so much time and energy invested in their characters they are afraid to move on to something else.

 

As you keep harping about in every post you make, that is just an assumption and you cannot prove it. In another thread you have said that story is the be all and end all of this game, and that is being given away for free.

 

And wow might be loosing millions of subscriptions, they are still at 10 times the number we have. hell they have multi million subscriptions to loose.

 

As for players with so much time and energy put into chars, well there must have been somthing keeping them to spend those hours and energy into their char right.

[Elyx]

I personally can understand the OP's point, and I wouldn't be surprised if they had actually had that on the table at some point. Why they decided to not do that I'm not sure. could be because it hasn't been tried or tested in the MMO market, and they didn't want to risk it themselves. could be that after looking at demographic numbers, it didn't provide them with the financial benefit they would need from it to make it cost effective.

 

either way, not happening at this point. although the person who wanted a "cheaper" sub option could decide to simply spend 10$ worth of coins each month, gaining the fruit of these coins, unlocking aspects of the game, and not having to spend 15. you would have to self manage your spending, but it's doable with the f2p option.

 

though the idea is interesting, the question is, if they did a cheaper option (say, 10 instead of 15), what do you think you should get for that 10? its obvious that you shouldn't get as much as the full sub gets, but you should have more then what the freemium account or premium account gets. I thought it would be balanced to say that the 10$ sub would get sub access but just no coins...but that goes back to the argument of "is 500 coins really worth 5$ if you don't use them"? which would be applied in reverse...why should the only difference be 500 coins..especially when they're forking over 5$ more a month?. and there's demographic issues as well. How would they satisfy everyone who wanted a cheaper sub option, but wanted access to "their" favorite things?

 

like PvP. I simply do not do it. so as a 10$ subber, I'd want Ops access and dailies access, but could care less about PvP. yet what about those who want PvP, but don't' care about dailies or crafting? though a reduced sub could be doable, it poses allot of challenges about what and how you get access that are solved by a free access. you get the basics for free, and then buy the extra's you want. so while a reduced sub seems approachable, I can also see why they may have discounted it on the table of ideas.

Edited November 13, 2012 by Elyx

[Macetheace]

Well - they under-achieved or their original business plan was unrealistic. Let's face it, WoW is a statistical outlier in the MMO market, and if anyone REALLY thought they would match it they were in cloud cuckoo land.

 

That's quite unfair,it's not impossible to beat wow, and people are certainly not mad to try, blizzard have proved very good at what they do in all levels, from game design, to marketing, building and sustaining a good business,and managing their media/PR excellently, but they aren't unbeatable, and ToR has a window of opportunity to really claw back subscribers from WoW and generate new ones.

 

TOR on release was a superior game to wow's cataclysm and by a stretch, sure there were annoying things in TOR, like loading screens on older machines and some time delays on high animation abilities that were later fixed, but largely these were nit-picking issues compared to the vast improvements on many aspects of this game on wow, despite the similarities, and it certainly really excited masses of players that stuck with it for over a month. Personally i think the PR /fanbase management was bad, the wow crowd that moved over are particularly disgruntled, brutal bunch of addicts, they lapped up the content with glee, and hit max level too soon, then largely *****ed on every game forum and game discussion about lack of end game content, which was grossly unfair of them, to the extent it made me wonder if blizzard's PR team weren't egging this on, it was so well done and so blatantly false .. but then most things you believe are false and you believe them now because of similar tactics used by your deceivers to hoodwink you to accepting a lesser product over a much better one.

 

In the case of Bioware, i just don't think they were prepared for this change in tone, and didn't react fast enough, it had done a lot of damage by the time they got tight on fans, and started upping their profile in the media concerning this game, by which time, the poison from the brats had infected most of the playerbase, who returned to an inferior product like going back to an old lover.

 

All this leaves Bioware in a pickle, but not one that they cannot get out, and certainly they were not fanciful on trying to crack this market, Star Wars is an iconic fanfic cult, they just need to organise themselves better, and play on their strengths.

 

1. you're losing out to wow on the subscriber part, F2play is good, you can also cut your subscription in two, full access for half the going rate of wow, is very very tempting

 

2. Boost your pr, now you've learnt your lesson, make sure your team counters every unfair criticism, officially or disguised as normal players, the wow media team do this all the time on fansites, game sites and their official forums too, trying to shape opinion even more than they actually inform - it's manipulation when you go the extent of trying to control people and sabotaging the competition - i do not recommend bioware does that.

 

3. Do more STAR WARSey stuff. Space ! is an asset. it's part of the star wars universe and is so cool. This is an exiciting aspect that a game like wow can never have, USE it, and USE IT WELL. It will attract brand new players to the mmo market and some old wow ones too, who will give the really good ground based parts of the game another shot, because they really are good and were very unfairly abandoned a few months into the game by players moaning about lack of stuff to do at end game then. Something that has since changed, but won't matter if youc an't get players to play again, you need an eye catching new feature or whole new element to the game that will allow you to rebrand and re-advertise it. And it is space, work on it fast, and get it up and running.

 

Do decent space ships, decent space stations, 3-dimensional space, space battles like you see in the movies, use that element. There is the entire SWG previous Star wars mmo that was entirely space based, why not build that into the current game, even make it an adventure that starts at level 50. once you've done the ground based character levelling and hit max level, ground base action can continue in more Ops, advanced flashpoints and warzones, all this wow has, but what wow doesn't have is the ability to start levelling your space ship and do space exploration missions, space combat battles, youc an't take off from a cool looking space station and fly in a stunning space environment, orbit a planet that looks really cool, and even go in for a landing.

 

make this possible, use that dimension and publicise it. In 4 months, when everyone is bored with cataclysm, they'd come flocking back to ToR, and they'd play their hearts out. Can you imagine, a whole new levelling experience at level 50? This one can take much longer because you have the ground based progression to keep you occupied, so no need to rush to max level, you can spread the levelling over much longer periods of time for space ships. Make it a subscriber only feature and you would put ToR well beyond the reach of wow.

 

 

Conclusion:

Wow already seems dated, ToR is a better game, it needs a new kick as feature like Space exploration and group combat game experience to kick start people to come back. Now when they return, they have 4 tiers of end game content, 3 tiers of flashpoints and warzone experiences to keep non space users quite content like wow, plus they have something wow can never have. They will not complain about lack of content this time, not with 4 tiers now available, and space exploration levelling at max level.

 

But if they give up now, now that would be stupid.

Edited November 13, 2012 by Macetheace
typos

[Knockerz]

Subscriptions base mmorpgs are rapidly being replaced with the freemium model. As for wow, Blizzard doesn't really have 10 million subscribers that pay 15 dollars each month. It's more like 3-4 million western users who pay a monthly subscription and 6-7 million pay for time players. Second, wow has been bleeding subscribers since cataclysm. However, the new expansion temporary put a stop to the decline of subscribers. Also due to the lack of positive information about wow in the last quarterly report suggest that wow influx of new players slowed dramatically or started to contract. I'm willing to bet willing to bet that next quarter report Blizzard's will sustain subscription losses and will once again be in declined. There are no longer higher number of new players to offset Blizzard's loss of subscribers and their most potent tactics to attract ex-wow players has already been exhausted.

 

The only way I see myself playing wow again is if WoW goes f2p or if Blizzard reverts current changes such as the 10 vs 25 model back to the BC model of 25 man only, stops the monthly nerfs to classes that results in flavor of month class/specs, separates pvp from pve, makes the crz optional, reverts the nerf to warriors to be able to charge and intercept from cataclysm, and many more changes. Also most of players I knew who played wow are no longer playing wow. Only a few remain, but our guild is no longer a 25 man guild and I don't know most of the new people in the guild. There are just too many changes that any ex wow player will not want to play wow again. The longer you been gone the more WoW will feel like a new game. Now I left wow about half way through Cataclysm and I have very little desire to play it again due to the drastic changes to the game that at end of cataclysm in preparation for MoP. Plus, I hate MoP. The whole theme of that expansion just isn't my kinda of thing.

[JimG]

I'm just wondering if they ever considered this.

 

Yes, they considered and rejected that idea. Per DarthHater's post on his website, they were asked about lowering the subscription price and said they didn't think that's the route for them to go. He mentions something about it in his notes but he explains it in more detail during his podcast.

 

Link to post: http://www.darthhater.com/articles/swtor-news/22284-bioware-press-q-a-reveals-free-to-play-launching

[Jinzouningen]

Look more closely at the dual access model for this game. Very little is actually free.... and the model is well established in the industry and will evenutally replace subscription only access in MMOs completely.

 

And if by "another MMO" you mean WoW..... it's loosing multi-milion subs over the last year and cannot hold player base 4 months after an expansion any more. All WoW has is a few million (we don't count the 6 million Asia token based accounts as they are not subscriptions) players with so much time and energy invested in their characters they are afraid to move on to something else.

 

I like your point but honestly just speaking of Wow ( and not blizzard all together) they dont have to move to anything else. Lose a million, lose 2 million subs at this point just speaking of that game and its age its still a cash cow. All the while Blizzard is working to top that cash cow with hopefully another hit.

 

Also ,this has been said before, Wow still has an item mall on top of subs. Its greedy and insane but you know they arent making anyone buy from their item mall. One crappy $40 mount bought by one sucker in one month counts as more than 2 (almost 3) subs from that one sucker in one month without even counting the suckers actual sub.

 

So in a way its not fair to compare swtor to Wow when it comes to subs, content , the price of a sub etc. Theyre still milking people with extremely outdated graphics. People quit and go back because of familiarity and disappointment with new releases. Theyre still in the process of dumbing that game down even more than it already is (especially with the new..bad..talent system) all the while charging for new "content" with 7+ yr old graphics. biggest scam going.

[Andryah]

Subscriptions base mmorpgs are rapidly being replaced with the freemium model. As for wow, Blizzard doesn't really have 10 million subscribers that pay 15 dollars each month. It's more like 3-4 million western users who pay a monthly subscription and 6-7 million pay for time players. Second, wow has been bleeding subscribers since cataclysm. However, the new expansion temporary put a stop to the decline of subscribers. Also due to the lack of positive information about wow in the last quarterly report suggest that wow influx of new players slowed dramatically or started to contract. I'm willing to bet willing to bet that next quarter report Blizzard's will sustain subscription losses and will once again be in declined. There are no longer higher number of new players to offset Blizzard's loss of subscribers and their most potent tactics to attract ex-wow players has already been exhausted.

 

The only way I see myself playing wow again is if WoW goes f2p or if Blizzard reverts current changes such as the 10 vs 25 model back to the BC model of 25 man only, stops the monthly nerfs to classes that results in flavor of month class/specs, separates pvp from pve, makes the crz optional, reverts the nerf to warriors to be able to charge and intercept from cataclysm, and many more changes. Also most of players I knew who played wow are no longer playing wow. Only a few remain, but our guild is no longer a 25 man guild and I don't know most of the new people in the guild. There are just too many changes that any ex wow player will not want to play wow again. The longer you been gone the more WoW will feel like a new game. Now I left wow about half way through Cataclysm and I have very little desire to play it again due to the drastic changes to the game that at end of cataclysm in preparation for MoP. Plus, I hate MoP. The whole theme of that expansion just isn't my kinda of thing.

 

I agree with everything you said.

[Andryah]

As you keep harping about in every post you make, that is just an assumption and you cannot prove it. In another thread you have said that story is the be all and end all of this game, and that is being given away for free.

 

And wow might be loosing millions of subscriptions, they are still at 10 times the number we have. hell they have multi million subscriptions to loose.

 

As for players with so much time and energy put into chars, well there must have been somthing keeping them to spend those hours and energy into their char right.

 

Not sure what point you are trying to make... other then to toss ad hominems at me.

 

Everything I shared is accurate and verifiable on the internet if you care to search rather then attack.

Edited November 14, 2012 by Andryah

[Gomla]

To put this in numbers:

 

Subscriptions "effectivley" drop to $10 a month if you are an active user of the CC store and stay within your stipend.

 

To be fair, i'd rather pay a 3rd less and not get the coins. Nothing in the store I want anyway so they will gather dust.

[H-aTreD]

Not sure what point you are trying to make... other then to toss ad hominems at me.

 

Everything I shared is accurate and verifiable on the internet if you care to search rather then attack.

 

lol

[sankalp]

Not sure what point you are trying to make... other then to toss ad hominems at me.

 

Everything I shared is accurate and verifiable on the internet if you care to search rather then attack.

 

As the person above said, LOL.

 

There is no way to prove that Freemium is better than subs when the most successful MMO ever has a sub based model and is going strong, and has several times the number of its nearest competitor which is going F2P. This cannot be proven.

 

And if you don't want people attacking you, maybe you should not post while sitting on a high horse.

[Macetheace]

I'm curious to determine what most players will do.

 

Would we have the case that players will pay for World of Warcraft and then play SWTOR free? - so for example those ppaying the $15/£9 price tag on TOR will unsubscribe in 1 month, continue playing and pay for WoW and run ToR as a free game.

 

Or do they think they have enough to entince new players to sub? If everyone goes F2play, it will kill Ops for subscribers, and the gap between haves and have nots wil be so wide, that htey'd be forced to introduce gear gated warzones, as subscriber players will keep decimating the much larger non-subscriber groups it will cease to be fun.

 

F2Play - has some good points to it, as SWTOR is a solid game, the best levelling experience of an MMO, however with MoP 's release, wow has made some big improvements, and are really developing sustainability. A competing MMO that hopes to attract subscribers, must be able to match the novel and game system improvemnts its main competitor brings to the table - which means you would have to find as a good a system of dailies as WoW provides, well refined class changes etc, features like dual spec and maybe even cross realm zones - but also have novelties totally unique to your own.

 

In my opinion, TOR has to introduce some TOR only unique features. Already it holds the advantage in terms of character graphics and animations over wow, Light sabers and blasters are certainly cooler than steel swords with power ranger gear and blunderbuss rifles. But they should work on more of that fancy stuff and bring in new things.

 

Every one's been saying you need to develop space, and let the movement feel a lot more connected. SPace exploration, battles, etc is an elemnt WoW doesn't have, their vehicle system is atrocious and they never devleoped it further after it's really poor introduction in WotLK - Star Wars has that dimension, and atm, i'm thinking is the one to develop majorly.

 

1. change the space graphcis, the space stations, the outside model of the space ships, the stars, and the planets viewed from space in the landing cut scenes look aweful - reavamp the whole thing.

 

Interiors could use some diversity too, i mean interriors of space stations - etc but that might come in an expansion, don't want the interior of every planet looking exactly the same, it gets boring for sustained play. however a cool looking Carrick station for e.g. breathtakingly gorgeously designed planet from space, stars, and exploration zones with some stunning pictures, will go a long long long long way to a space game with space battles and multiplayer action.

 

2. Match the wow system changes for the ground game. If quality of life features are more attractive in warcraft than they are in ToR, people would stick to wow. The games are so close in other aspects, better animations and character models will not be enough, remember that game has a much larger world and diverse land topography than ToR, so ToR's system must be as smart, while it works on its expansion.

 

Systems like dailies, Looking for Group tools, etc must at least equal or surpass the competitor, then you add your space dimension and imo, it's in the bag.