Vis-Tecum Posted November 2, 2012 Author Share Posted November 2, 2012 (edited) I don't know about WoW, but in LOTRO, the map home was a 60 minute timer, and took you to one location. kinda why I titled the thread "why do devs" not "why do the swtor devs" it is deffinatly in many games and like I said before a "mmo" thing really I was just venting because the game pissed me off today and now I cant play it with out getting upset but like I said is a little quality of life and convience so game breaking in a mmo. cant we just have some fun with out all the rules rules rules and some more rules just to make it more "fun" and no im not saying there shouldnt be any rules, you need rules to make it a game. but there is a point where your just making up rules for no reason and I think many developers do this. hell I am all for more rules in huttball to make it feel more like a real sport, just not pointles ones. I think offsides is a good rule in sports and I think it would make huttball more interesting. slow lifts does not make the experiance more enjoyable Edited November 3, 2012 by Vis-Tecum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arlon_Nabarlly Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 well you are focusing on one of many complaints [just the cooldown complaint] and rp and pvp servers are in the minority and a small precent of the player base Wow. Hi, I'm reality, have we met? Let's look at some numbers here taken from (http://www.torstatus.net/) Based on Number of Severs: US PvE - 3 RP/PvP - 5 European PvE - 3 RP/PvP - 6 Asia-Pacific PvE - 1 RP/PvP - 2 Total PvE - 7 RP/PvP - 13 Total - 20 PvE % = 7/20 * 100 = 35% RP/PvP % = 13/20 * 100 = 65% Is 65% a small percent? Now based on Population (now admittedly I don't know how torstatus' population index works, but since it's the number I have I'll use that) US PvE - 1.96 + 1.83 + 1.75 = 5.54 RP/PvP - 1.8 + 1.72 + 1.55 + 1.38 + 1.30 = 7.75 European PvE - 1.79 + 1.62 + 1.59 = 5 RP/PvP - 1.83 + 1.59 + 1.55 + 1.55 + 1.45 + 1.41 = 9.38 Asia-Pacific PvE - 1.03 RP/PvP - 1.2 + .98 = 2 Total PvE = 5.54 + 5 + 1.03 = 11.57 RP / PvP = 7.75 + 9.38 + 2 = 19.13 Total = 30.7 PvE % = 11.57/30.7 * 100 = 37.69% RP/PvP % = 19.13/30.7 * 100 = 62.31% Is 62.31% a small percent? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vis-Tecum Posted November 2, 2012 Author Share Posted November 2, 2012 (edited) Wow. Hi, I'm reality, have we met? Let's look at some numbers here taken from (http://www.torstatus.net/) first off reading comprehension is key here, I said rpers are the minority not all rpers and pvpers combined are the minority. it was regarding the immersion breaking, the pvp argument is better but still a pointless argument considering the state of open world pvp in swtor. you are defending a tiny portion of content at the expensive of so much convienence for everyone. this is what I mean by taking rules too far. but yeah, what are the highest pop servers? and of those two rp servers how many of them rp so hard as to not use quick travel? do rpers cry when their speeder and companions pop out of thin air. i know, everytime we summon a companion we should have to wait for them to path all the way to us from the ship so that rpers dont loose immersion. and is there just massive open world pvp battles going on on pvp servers I am unaware of, and wouldnt it be nice to beable to travel to all these fights going on with out having to wait 30 minutes or truck it over there, personaly I would love to beable to show up help out my faction defend our outpost and return to my questing or whatever I was doing. but I guess that is not fun to have that option keep trying Edited November 3, 2012 by Vis-Tecum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlimsPicken Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 OK Mr. Cool MMO player.... Do you find that all video games are not fun? Same kinds of people make most games. not all, just most. because most devs arent too cool, it seems. They sure as **** dont know whats fun in most cases, it appears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simplius Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 yup this game is more frustrating, than fun,,,thats one of the reasons for the low sub numbers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superpescado Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 some people like what you call annoying. Design is an art and like art it is subjective. If you really think these design choices are annoying you should try out EVE online. Get trial account and see if you can make it past the tutorial. It will probably make you re think your position on what is and isn't 'annoying' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scullzomben Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 My biggest frustration is knockbacks. KNOCKBACKS EVERYWHERE. Seriously, the amount of trash mobs that have knockbacks is so painful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vis-Tecum Posted November 2, 2012 Author Share Posted November 2, 2012 some people like what you call annoying. Design is an art and like art it is subjective. If you really think these design choices are annoying you should try out EVE online. Get trial account and see if you can make it past the tutorial. It will probably make you re think your position on what is and isn't 'annoying' so your argument is that devs make games frustrating because that is what they consider fun. I agree that is fun to some people and they play eve [just a joke, I actually think eve is frustrating because of the difficulty and unique game play not pointless annoyences but I did not play for more than a couple days so I wouldnt of got annoyed or noticed these things right away] but that does not diminish the fact that frustration is not fun and I would like to know the philosophy behind limiting experiances and gameplay options Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuixupu Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 My biggest frustration is knockbacks. KNOCKBACKS EVERYWHERE. Seriously, the amount of trash mobs that have knockbacks is so painful. Now this is a statement I can get behind. Yes please, enough with the knockbacks! At least give us more variety of annoying mechanics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 so your argument is that devs make games frustrating because that is what they consider fun. I agree that is fun to some people and they play eve [just a joke, I actually think eve is frustrating because of the difficulty and unique game play not pointless annoyences but I did not play for more than a couple days so I wouldnt of got annoyed or noticed these things right away] but that does not diminish the fact that frustration is not fun and I would like to know the philosophy behind limiting experiances and gameplay options Game producers make MMOs to appeal to a broad audience. They certainly do not make MMOs to appeal specifically to your personal needs and whims. Stop whining. Find an MMO that gives you what you need, is fun for you.... AND PLAY IT. If it's not this MMO, then find the right one. Take responsibility for your MMO experience instead of playing victim. /2cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vis-Tecum Posted November 2, 2012 Author Share Posted November 2, 2012 (edited) The ability to use multiple medkit was in the game at launch. There was a cooldown between uses but there was no limit to how many you could use in fight. I believe (and I'm not positive) this was taken out mainly for PvP balance. If you are biochem you can make re-usable med packs and being being able to spam them gave people with biochem a huge advantage in PvP and forced like 90% of the PvP community to only use this skill or fall behind. yes it was but the devs could not handle it, it was too convenient and they also dont want the extra heals in operations so they took it away from everyone and put it on all medpacks instead of just limiting reusables or making this effect only happen in ops and pvp they could of also just removed the biochem requiment for use giving biochem a good selling item and the convenience of a reusable medpack/stim/adrenal to everyone [though that probably has a economic factor to it] plus they are phasing out the reuseables anyway so again it becomes a pointless limitation that makes gameplay more frustrating, if I want to spend 100K on medpacks and spamm the hell out of them so I can solo a heroic shouldnt that be a choice for the player? does it cheapen your gameplay experiance if I do it on my time? are diffrent game play options for diffrent types of people so taboo in a mmo? Edited November 3, 2012 by Vis-Tecum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vis-Tecum Posted November 2, 2012 Author Share Posted November 2, 2012 (edited) Stop whining. Find an MMO that gives you what you need, is fun for you.... AND PLAY IT. If it's not this MMO, then find the right one. Take responsibility for your MMO experience instead of playing victim. /2cents. right, because this is just a swtor complaint thread gee and I forgot to put im unsubscribing in the title too get attention or just posted the 100th thread about disney was making this comment: "its amazing that they can take something so cool like getting the aim datacron on corellia [really like the idea, hate the execution] and then put in the slowest moving lift to get to the explosive device [why, what is the point?] and make it so the box blocks your camera and you cant see where your going to go flying [good job guys] and then make it so you will miss the ledge if your not lined up perfectly with no indication or markers where that spot and angle are [because having to wait 10 minutes to try it again is awesome] nothing is hard to do to get the datacron its just frustrating and makes you want to stab everyone who designed or tested anything to do with this game. is the game mechanic here patience?" really so offensive to people? I felt that this was a good example of how small things can ruin a awesome experiance and questioned why they are needed or designed that way. so I guess I should just go unsubscribe now Edited November 3, 2012 by Vis-Tecum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vis-Tecum Posted November 3, 2012 Author Share Posted November 3, 2012 (edited) to add another point it does seem bioware is trying to fix some of the inconvenience, they did add in the mail / repair droid, feild respec, daily shuttle, and option to return players to their previous location for the group finder but why not just climb down off that high horse and let people freelly travel back and forth to the fleet, our ship and our previous location instead of having to code and implement all these new items wit more cool downs like a addiction that are just a band aid to the original designs problems Edited November 3, 2012 by Vis-Tecum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grayseven Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 What makes a lot of the datacrons frustrating is input lag and a lack of consistency in the collision and physics in world objects. When you can get stuck in an object just by trying to jump on it...it can make these Super Mario Bros. datacron hunts frustrating as heck. If you fall a considerable distance and try to summon your speeder within a few seconds of hitting (and taking damage) you will get the "can't do this while moving" message. You've stopped, you've taken your damage and you are just standing there but the game still thinks you are moving. Same goes with running and jumping. If you run for a few seconds, stop and then try to do a short jump forward the game still acts like you are running and launches you much farther forward than you wanted to go. For some datacron locations you have to wait 3-5 seconds after running to jump if you don't want to overshoot the mark. Basically, the games bugs and quirks combined with the asinine paths some of these datacrons require add up to a huge amount of frustration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Revanchis Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 I rarely need QT more than 30. You know you can send your companions to sell your stuff rather than going to a vendor right? If you could teleport every minute you may as well play Star Trek "Beam me up Scotty!" Well, no. You're not warping. The idea is that you are traveling there at a normal pace, but you're just skipping time to straight there, instead of watching the whole tedious process. Like quick traveling in single player games. Honestly I think this game could learn quite a bit from single player RPG's, should have brought more guys from the Edmonton studio to do some work on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evarwyn Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 The OP brings up a great point though! I think one thing that really gets me in this game, is all the running and "manual traveling" you need to do to get from where you are, to where you want to be. Example: Imagine you're on Voss and your guild invites you to an in-progress raid. Wouldn't it be great if they could get you into the raid w/o you having to blow your travel cooldowns? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
United_Strafes Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 Its like game developers are aliens who have an entirely different concept of what fun is on earth. That, or the fact that they are mostly made up of individuals who have a cool factor of zero. We all remember these guys from high school, and unfortunately, they are smarter than us, so their bad ideas on whats cool or fun is what gets made. Basically, what these games need is actual "cool" people at the top who can properly apply the carrot and stick, because smart is usually not equal to cool. People who understand what is actually fun should be the ones making the decisions and just have the smart guys do the coding. Right luckily there must be at least 1 guy around who isn't crazy or we'd be spending half the day doing repairs, sleeping, and traveling in real time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xatasha Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 i get grinding and money sinks and I am fine with that. what annoys me is the ridiculously slow moving objects and the huge money sink for nothing, [and the excessive rules on everthing] make the quick travel cost 50 million credits so I have to grind dailies on 8 characters for months to get the money, but give me the option to make the cool down 1 min or no cooldown at all. or just be cool and think about your players and at launch give us bind points to anywhere and no cool downs on travel, or fleet passes or priority transports that dont share their redicoulous cool down. I dont see the reason for this and it doesnt extend any gameplay to stretch out content. it just makes it frustrating also I am ok with things like the balloon on tatooine that is a one time thing and part of the adventure but then to just place these slow moving cranes to make you have to wait and then have to do it again if you fail is so obviously un fun that someone should of stepped up and said something in development Again it is all about old school games that had to have time and money sinks to keep players playing. Today's games don't need as many time/money sinks but devs play it safe and tend to put a lot in and later can remove them rather than risk having to few in to begin with. There is also the greed aspect you have to look at. I am sure F2P will sale super fast speeders to milk a bit of money from the player base. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenirath Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 - travel system - rediculously long cooldowns - rules on top of rules on top of more rules... what is the reason or point of not being able to buff someone while mounted just so the devs can be ***** and not encourage helping your fellow players? - slowest moving cranes and elevators designed just to make you not want to go for that datacron - huge credit sinks for the smallest quality of life improvement with more restrictions than are needed - horrible drop rates for mission items like the freakin rakata key in the belsavis dailies or having to kill x number in the blackhole just to go back to the same mobs to get the boxes [great game design] not to mention the number of boxes compared to people in the instance - trash mobs on top of trash mobs and then fight more trash mobs and run back through them all 4 more times -getting stuck on invisible terrain or not letting take that short cut over the mountain / around that wall 1) Travel System: I find the travel system to be fairly convenient, almost every single area with even 1 quest is linked via speeder pads, the quick travel is on a 30 minutes cooldown (Standard for MMOs) and mounts go 90/100/110% where in WoW they go 60/100% on the ground. I don't factor in flying mounts only because we don't have them and WoW didn't have them its first 3 years. 2) Cooldowns: are no longer than any other game from my experience. 3)Restrictions: Every mmo has restrictions like these. WoW Priests can't provide fortitude buffs while mounted, Druid Healers cant heal in travel form, Etc 4)Elevators: Have you tried the Elevators in WoW? 5) Credit sinks: are all just fluff and Convenience and (Optional) 6) Drop rates: are no worst than WoW, TSW, other MMOs. I can't tell you how many wolves I had to kill for 10 wolf hearts, it wasn't 10 though. 7)Trash Mobs: So you want the ability to stroll up to an item, grab it then walk out without having to fight? Roll an assassin 8) The invisible walls, mountains in way: Some of these are meant to stop you from accidently strolling in to an area 3 levels higher than you while leveling, some of these are the borders of a map, and the invisible walls are likely bugs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAVM Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 (edited) or having to kill x number in the blackhole just to go back to the same mobs to get the boxes [great game design] They do this everywhere and it's so annoying... Kill 30 mobs. Then, and only then, go back and fight the same guys re-spawned to destroy or loot the crates they're guarding..... ["Objective Updating..."] Edited November 3, 2012 by RAVM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simplius Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 They do this everywhere and it's so annoying... Kill 30 mobs. Then, and only then, go back and fight the same guys re-spawned to destroy or loot the crates they're guarding..... ["Objective Updating..."] yea they reuse the same area and mobs too much,,also in space,,,way too little content Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arlon_Nabarlly Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 (edited) Well, no. You're not warping. The idea is that you are traveling there at a normal pace, but you're just skipping time to straight there, instead of watching the whole tedious process. Like quick traveling in single player games. Honestly I think this game could learn quite a bit from single player RPG's, should have brought more guys from the Edmonton studio to do some work on it. No actually it's not. Really what it is that a shuttle comes and picks you up because you hear a shuttle sound then the character often waves bye when they reach their destination. Also you realize what Bioware known for is single player RPGs.... Edited November 3, 2012 by Arlon_Nabarlly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightspirit Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 On the early pre-launch forums the devs made all kinds of promises that they would eliminiate the grind, go with a softer trinity, not have boss battles being 4 guys beating up on one big boss but have dynamic events where your group fights hords of enemies and all sorts of other things. But as information was released it seemed apparent that someone was checking off all the checkboxes on the standard MMO design checklist and major innovation would not be tolerated. So yea, we have a lot of little frustrations in the game and yea, those frustrations are common in MMO' (especially older ones). It seems the devs on GW2 were reading the SWTOR pre-launch forums though because they managed to make good on most of BioWare's early promises and make a pretty good go of it. I'm not going to sit here and say GW2 is a perfect game so much as I'm going to say if BioWare stuck to their guns and did a little innovation on the core game elements they may have met their expectations for this game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 1) Travel System: I find the travel system to be fairly convenient, almost every single area with even 1 quest is linked via speeder pads, the quick travel is on a 30 minutes cooldown (Standard for MMOs) and mounts go 90/100/110% where in WoW they go 60/100% on the ground. I don't factor in flying mounts only because we don't have them and WoW didn't have them its first 3 years. 2) Cooldowns: are no longer than any other game from my experience. 3)Restrictions: Every mmo has restrictions like these. WoW Priests can't provide fortitude buffs while mounted, Druid Healers cant heal in travel form, Etc 4)Elevators: Have you tried the Elevators in WoW? 5) Credit sinks: are all just fluff and Convenience and (Optional) 6) Drop rates: are no worst than WoW, TSW, other MMOs. I can't tell you how many wolves I had to kill for 10 wolf hearts, it wasn't 10 though. 7)Trash Mobs: So you want the ability to stroll up to an item, grab it then walk out without having to fight? Roll an assassin 8) The invisible walls, mountains in way: Some of these are meant to stop you from accidently strolling in to an area 3 levels higher than you while leveling, some of these are the borders of a map, and the invisible walls are likely bugs. Accurate assessment. It seems to be a trend in the MMO player base to want more and more instant gratification elements in an MMO and anything that in any way impairs that desire is labeled a "grind". I think it's the proliferation of single player set piece games and arena faux PvP that is behind a lot of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vis-Tecum Posted November 3, 2012 Author Share Posted November 3, 2012 (edited) Accurate assessment. It seems to be a trend in the MMO player base to want more and more instant gratification elements in an MMO and anything that in any way impairs that desire is labeled a "grind". I think it's the proliferation of single player set piece games and arena faux PvP that is behind a lot of this. I know this wasnt in reply to my post but for me it is not instant gratification at all, my guild is still banging our heads against kephess every week and how long has tfb been out , I also pvp alot but still dont have a full war hero set or my valor capped, and I couldnt even count how many times I have beat lorrik and have only seen the midnight rakling once and didnt win. this I have no problem with, its not about instant grtification. its about convenience, I dont what stuff handed to me I want to work for it [though I did buy my 27 barrels and did not earn them, felt kinda lazy for doing that] but I dont want that work to feel frustrating because of little things the devs feel they need to have in their games, but dont improve the gameplay in a fun way. I just want the objectives / method to make sense. like I said in my example, [because I feel people are focusing way to much on MY list of gripes, I should'nt have put those in my post] the aim datacron should be a awesome fun experience but for me it failed and was just frustrating because the developers have it set in their way of thinking that being inconvenienced = more chalange / fun. if the lift didnt move so slow, the box didnt block your view or if there was some indication of the direction the box sent you flying then this would of been one of the best little unique ways to get a datacron and it didnt have to invole platforming it should of been a 10, for reasons I will never know they purposly made it a 5 or less in my opinion Edited November 3, 2012 by Vis-Tecum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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