I didn't realise how bad PvP was broken, until tonight - and why nobody does RWZ's

[UGLYMRJ]

Oh NOz, gear isnt the end-all be-all, even in rated..... Damn.....

 

 

<------Feeling vindicated for all the flames I took saying this for the last 8 months....

 

There's been a few of us fighting the good fight... unfortunately we are greatly out numbered here on the forums. Fortunately for us... if it comes down to a fight to the death.... I'm pretty sure we can still take em on.

 

Why?

 

Skill > gear > tears.

 

Edited November 1, 2012 by UGLYMRJ

[L-RANDLE]

There's been a few of us fighting the good fight... unfortunately we are greatly out numbered here on the forums. Fortunately for us... if it comes down to a fight to the death.... I'm pretty sure we can still take em on.

 

Why?

 

Skill > gear > tears.

 

Yup.

 

/5char

[Jadescythe]

The problem with this is objectives. If you reduce CC or increase TTK by much you potentially have to increase spawn timers or make some other change in order to compensate. If people live longer and are CC'd less.... it drastically decreases the chances of having those free seconds to plant a bomb or cap a node.

 

While I would love to see TTK increased slightly and CC decreased slightly... even the slightest change can drastically affect the game and break objective based PvP. Not saying it's impossible... but even a small change can make a huge difference.

 

Even now most rated matches become an eternal fight for the last node. each team caps one and very often the last node goes damn near all game without being capped. With 2 equally skilled teams... capturing objectives can already be a challenge and either change could make that worse. Civil wars are already decided by whoever caps a node first way too often in rated. Basically... predation + force sprint wins (With an intercept of course). Any changes to TTK or CC could make it even worse and I hardly see that as a competitive way to decide a winner.

 

With the way things are going, I'd be all for trying to increase TTK, decrease CC, and lower the cap times in ACW/VS. I wouldn't mind seeing nodes change hands more often or see teams actually cap doors sometimes in games. If it only took 4 seconds to cap a turret in ACW, then I think it would be entirely possible to have strategy to take it WITHOUT having to kill the whole other team at one time. Possibly change it to have a longer time, but have the time keep going down as long as someone is channeling it. So if it takes 12 seconds to cap and you have two people channeling, time isn't sped up, but if one gets hit, it keeps going until they are hit as well. But if the first person is back to channeling before the other is hit, it wouldn't break the time at all.

 

I came up with those ideas in like 20 seconds, so who knows if they are any good, but I think there are ways to allow for changes in TTK and CC without breaking warzones.

[Larry_Dallas]

Too bad the guild I used to do ranked with unsubbed. 8 Cybertechs sounds like the best and worst pvp idea in the world and I'd like to have tried it.

 

Anyways, I do agree that resolve should be changed back, but also think stuns should go back to 30m for everyone if it does.

[Larry_Dallas]

The problem with this is objectives. If you reduce CC or increase TTK by much you potentially have to increase spawn timers or make some other change in order to compensate. If people live longer and are CC'd less.... it drastically decreases the chances of having those free seconds to plant a bomb or cap a node.

 

While I would love to see TTK increased slightly and CC decreased slightly... even the slightest change can drastically affect the game and break objective based PvP. Not saying it's impossible... but even a small change can make a huge difference.

 

Even now most rated matches become an eternal fight for the last node. each team caps one and very often the last node goes damn near all game without being capped. With 2 equally skilled teams... capturing objectives can already be a challenge and either change could make that worse. Civil wars are already decided by whoever caps a node first way too often in rated. Basically... predation + force sprint wins (With an intercept of course). Any changes to TTK or CC could make it even worse and I hardly see that as a competitive way to decide a winner.

 

Stalemating's really just a civil war thing. Haven't been in a NC that did that, at least. I guess I've been in a few VSs that nobody got through the first door, but that's a lot rarer than CW stalemates.

[DarthBror]

Min/Maxed BM is equivlant to WH.

 

As in the mods from set 1 and Enhancement form set 2..

 

For me. its the Mod from Force mystic. and the enhancement from the forcemaster.

 

Also you will need to sub out the crytals from both your main and off hand.

 

thats +82 power right there.

 

Additionally you will need to pull out 2 armor plates and replace them with 2 BH or Campaign plates. thats +60 to Main stat and +40 to endure with those.

 

These changes will make a BIG diffrence in Output and survivability.

[DarthBror]

Keep in mind to min max WH.. the sets are flipped opposite. So I need the mods from the Masters set or the main hand. and the enhancement from the mystics set.

 

Mirror opposite of the BM sets.

[TUXs]

And for the record this isn't a QQ post, this is a where did it all go wrong post? So very very wrong...

 

You answered this yourself actually:

 

I have never, in my entire time spent PvP'ing, died so quickly or have been CC'd so much.

 

The CC's are 95% of the problem IMO.

[UGLYMRJ]

With the way things are going, I'd be all for trying to increase TTK, decrease CC, and lower the cap times in ACW/VS. I wouldn't mind seeing nodes change hands more often or see teams actually cap doors sometimes in games. If it only took 4 seconds to cap a turret in ACW, then I think it would be entirely possible to have strategy to take it WITHOUT having to kill the whole other team at one time. Possibly change it to have a longer time, but have the time keep going down as long as someone is channeling it. So if it takes 12 seconds to cap and you have two people channeling, time isn't sped up, but if one gets hit, it keeps going until they are hit as well. But if the first person is back to channeling before the other is hit, it wouldn't break the time at all.

 

I came up with those ideas in like 20 seconds, so who knows if they are any good, but I think there are ways to allow for changes in TTK and CC without breaking warzones.

 

I like it... it would be a touchy thing to change... have to get the right balance of both but with proper guarding, taunting, healing in war zones it does seem like deaths are rare in competitive PvP. Increasing TTK and decreasing CC sounds good... it would just have to be done carefully. Finding the balance would be difficult.

 

The tough part about increasing TTK would be the fresh 50's... they would get burnt down even quicker and we all know how many complaints there are about that already.

 

Stalemating's really just a civil war thing. Haven't been in a NC that did that, at least. I guess I've been in a few VSs that nobody got through the first door, but that's a lot rarer than CW stalemates.

 

Civil war is the worst... but I've had many VS and NC's that have been stalemates as well.

Edited November 1, 2012 by UGLYMRJ

[criminalheretic]

That statement reminds me of keyboard turners that get mad when people strafe behind them in a duel, and complain about how it's not 'honorable" to do that.

 

It's always amusing to me how uptight MMO players can be with made-up rules on what their vision of "sporting" combat should be.

 

If you feel grenades are overpowered, then make a new thread (since grenades are *not* exclusive to RWZs) with a strong argument on why that is. I would somewhat agree with you that grenades are OP, but as long as it is in the game, you can't fault players for using them.

 

Nope grenades are not exclusive to RWZs, although it makes me laugh a little every time someone uses one in lowbie. I'm sure they have a ton of mats and loot, but I still can't help but thinking "really?".

[Antipodes]

Nope grenades are not exclusive to RWZs, although it makes me laugh a little every time someone uses one in lowbie. I'm sure they have a ton of mats and loot, but I still can't help but thinking "really?".

 

The term "tryhard" comes to mind. Unless they are using the re-usable ones

[Sweeet]

The problem with this is objectives. If you reduce CC or increase TTK by much you potentially have to increase spawn timers or make some other change in order to compensate. If people live longer and are CC'd less.... it drastically decreases the chances of having those free seconds to plant a bomb or cap a node.

 

While I would love to see TTK increased slightly and CC decreased slightly... even the slightest change can drastically affect the game and break objective based PvP. Not saying it's impossible... but even a small change can make a huge difference.

 

Even now most rated matches become an eternal fight for the last node. each team caps one and very often the last node goes damn near all game without being capped. With 2 equally skilled teams... capturing objectives can already be a challenge and either change could make that worse. Civil wars are already decided by whoever caps a node first way too often in rated. Basically... predation + force sprint wins (With an intercept of course). Any changes to TTK or CC could make it even worse and I hardly see that as a competitive way to decide a winner.

 

There has actually been a time when the TTK was a lot higher than it is now, and it didn't break objective based PvP in the slightest - Patch 1.1.5. That to me felt like the most balanced PvP I have ever experienced in terms of TTK. At the moment though a BiS player can take another BiS player out in 5 seconds flat with some lucky crits, that shouldn't be possible for one person to do in competitive PvP. I used to think 1.2 was bad in terms of TTK, but with the introduction of elite WH gear and bad balancing it has gotten worse, much much worse.

 

You think you're fighting the good ol' fight whilst you proclaim that things are fine the way they are... But are they, really? PvP is in a pretty bad place right now and I wouldn't say it's done the game any favours, would you?

Edited November 1, 2012 by Sweeet

[Sweeet]

Ultimately, this all comes down to fun.

 

When you have a very short TTK, the fun becomes completely one-sided. The person doing the killing has loads of fun, the person dying has no fun at all.

 

With a longer TTK, the fun becomes more even. The result should be exactly the same because after all, the better player will win no matter what! Whether it be because they know their class better, use their cooldowns better, have better gear, whatever, it really doesn't matter why they win.

 

However, if the person who is going to lose has some fun in the process then it means they will keep coming back. If they keep coming back, everybody wins.

 

 

So, whilst all you people out there are saying L2P, stop QQing etc, please realise that the OP understands this, he's not asking for nerfs, he's not saying ban grenades and he acknowledges that he himself and his team could be a lot better.

 

What the OP is asking for is a change of direction in the pvp design to balance out the fun being had. By increasing TTK or reducing CC or by some other method, it would be great if the losers at least had the illusion of having a chance. The better players will always win, thats a fact, but the current system means that the losers can often just get stomped sooo hard that it sucks all the fun out of it.

 

Less fun = less player retention = less pvp for everyone.

 

Give this man a cigar!

[RogueNights]

Originally wrote a longer more constructive post.. then decided to change it when I saw some of the later comments...

 

When you are having defense/staying on the field problems in rwz you are at the very very painful 2nd beginning of learning how to play this game.. The whole low ttk thing is utter nonsense imo.. Am not a super highlevel player.. but would say I’ve made the following observation: as the skill of both teams increases ttk on average goes up, alot. E.g. super high level teams facing eachother tend to have the problem of not being able to kill each other fast enough (ttk is absurdly high from disciplined healing/tanking defensive play) for anyone to ever take a contested objective.

[UGLYMRJ]

 

You think you're fighting the good ol' fight whilst you proclaim that things are fine the way they are... But are they, really? PvP is in a pretty bad place right now and I wouldn't say it's done the game any favours, would you?

 

I don't claim that anything is fine... but the majority of suggestions on these forums would further break the game and put it in an even worse place. At least it's playable.... most ideas here would make it completely unplayable.

[Invictusthetaru]

Was on 2 very good ranked teams on the fatman and bastion before I quit 2 or 3 months ago, and must say ranked warzones being so boring was one of the reasons.

 

The most intense matches were CC fests. We were outrageously good at CC capping so Alderaan was never a problem, but between the other 3 game types you would be hard pressed not to be stunned half the time.

 

Mezzes don't matter in regular warzones because dumb teammates break them all the time. In ranked you eat those 6-8 second mezzes as the other team heals back up to full, and it's just extremely boring. There are hardly any "clutch" moments because everything becomes so cut and dry.

 

I love the randomness of regular warzones, just don't get the same feel out of ranked.

[Aluvi]

And also that they don't normally do RWZ and ran into a top tier guild. I can imagine a couple of those on EB, where all the players know each other and play with each other regularly. It's unfortunate but until cross-server queues are implemented only kickball games will be fun or viable.

 

I'm not going to get involved in the argument, but for a post that is complaining about the gear gap, the only thing you mentioned are grenades and team coordination, both of which you can acquire with a little bit of credits and a little bit of practice.

 

Both of these quotes basically sum up what I would say. I used to be in an "OK" PvP guild that didn't do rateds very much. We brought a half full WH and half WH/BM mix players, none of which had much experience doing ranked, but all of which thought they were amazing players (myself included). We got stomped by a few extremely coordinated teams, and the rest of my guild said pretty much the same thing as the OP; gear imbalance, class imbalance, etc. Anything to not break their own fragile egos and place the blame anywhere but on themselves. I saw it for what it was; an extremely coordinated group of players, each at the very top tier of their play. Players that are in the top .000001% of their class for skill and gear. And those players coming together to make a well oiled killing machine that decimates anything and everything in their way, making so called "high skill" and "well geared" guilds look like noobs in full recruit.

 

To the OP: The reality is that you got severely outplayed by people who have been running rankeds for a very long time. If this group is anything like the group I run with, they have probably done ranked to the point that people refuse to queue against them. They (like us) have had long discussions in vent and on their guild forums about how to win each warzone, detailed strategies that everyone on the team knows and executes flawlessly.

 

To make a PvE comparison, this pro team would be like the guild that has had all of TfB 16 man on farm for weeks and is in full best in slot, completely optimized gear. They have their strats down, everyone knows their jobs, and they just go in and clean house. Your guild, on the other hand, is still doing attempts on first or second boss and is in a mix of campaign and maybe a few rakata pieces. You can call it a gear gap issue, but the reality is that the other team is just vastly more experienced, has their strats down, and everyone knows what to do. There is no confusion. There is no question. There is only ownage.

 

I used to be like you OP, but since joining my current guild and learning from them, I realize how far I was from being truly skilled at PvP, and much I have learned. That isn't to say that I'm perfect; I still have much to learn, and I think I will always be learning and improving. When you have insanely close matches, with 2 teams at this level of play, you get games like this:

 

http://imageshack.us/f/716/physics2to0.jpg/

 

Look at the objective points, the stats, and the score. This was an amazing game with 2 very good teams. This is how top tier PvP is.

 

I will agree with you on one point - resolve and stuns in this game are broken. The amount of stuns needs to go down substantially, or resolve needs to be buffed to build more quickly and give you more immunity.. or use a diminishing returns on stuns/cc/snare/root system like WoW does.

[Sweeet]

Both of these quotes basically sum up what I would say. I used to be in an "OK" PvP guild that didn't do rateds very much. We brought a half full WH and half WH/BM mix players, none of which had much experience doing ranked, but all of which thought they were amazing players (myself included). We got stomped by a few extremely coordinated teams, and the rest of my guild said pretty much the same thing as the OP; gear imbalance, class imbalance, etc. Anything to not break their own fragile egos and place the blame anywhere but on themselves. I saw it for what it was; an extremely coordinated group of players, each at the very top tier of their play. Players that are in the top .000001% of their class for skill and gear. And those players coming together to make a well oiled killing machine that decimates anything and everything in their way, making so called "high skill" and "well geared" guilds look like noobs in full recruit.

 

To the OP: The reality is that you got severely outplayed by people who have been running rankeds for a very long time. If this group is anything like the group I run with, they have probably done ranked to the point that people refuse to queue against them. They (like us) have had long discussions in vent and on their guild forums about how to win each warzone, detailed strategies that everyone on the team knows and executes flawlessly.

 

To make a PvE comparison, this pro team would be like the guild that has had all of TfB 16 man on farm for weeks and is in full best in slot, completely optimized gear. They have their strats down, everyone knows their jobs, and they just go in and clean house. Your guild, on the other hand, is still doing attempts on first or second boss and is in a mix of campaign and maybe a few rakata pieces. You can call it a gear gap issue, but the reality is that the other team is just vastly more experienced, has their strats down, and everyone knows what to do. There is no confusion. There is no question. There is only ownage.

 

I used to be like you OP, but since joining my current guild and learning from them, I realize how far I was from being truly skilled at PvP, and much I have learned. That isn't to say that I'm perfect; I still have much to learn, and I think I will always be learning and improving. When you have insanely close matches, with 2 teams at this level of play, you get games like this:

 

http://imageshack.us/f/716/physics2to0.jpg/

 

Look at the objective points, the stats, and the score. This was an amazing game with 2 very good teams. This is how top tier PvP is.

 

I will agree with you on one point - resolve and stuns in this game are broken. The amount of stuns needs to go down substantially, or resolve needs to be buffed to build more quickly and give you more immunity.. or use a diminishing returns on stuns/cc/snare/root system like WoW does.

 

I know exactly what the reality is, I know I am not as skilled. I also know that I could become just as skilled if I put my mind to it, but that is not the point at all. If what I witnessed last night is what end-game PvP is all about, then I do not want to be skilled in it, I'd prefer to stay mediocre and have a blast in normal WZ's than stoop to a level of gameplay I find cheap and demeaning.

 

People saying that the TTK goes up when two skilled teams go up against each other are also missing the point. Yes of course the TTK will go up if you are both locking each other down and healing to full whilst the other team is locked down. It's that very type of gameplay that is the issue in the first place though, locking people down for prolonged periods of time is not healthy for PvP and thus the game as it puts people off. At least you agree with me on that point. But do you not feel it is this over the top CC combined with the high burst that is causing the biggest problem? Think about it, the CC wouldn't be so bad if the burst wasn't so high. It is the direct combination of the two that breaks PvP, not just CC on its own.

 

I understand the tactics, I understand what needs to be done in order for me to become a skilled player within PvP's current state - I also understand that those tactics are a detriment to the game and everyone playing it. Just because there is a way, doesn't mean it is the right way. There are many great suggestions that would be far better than anything we have now, however I fear it has gotten so bad that Bioware are now dreading making even the slightest change in case they mess things up further... Not that it could actually get any worse.

Edited November 1, 2012 by Sweeet

[HuaRya]

I don't agree pvp is competitive and new players if competitive will

Improve themselves to be competitive the qq you see on the forums about pvp is from a small minority of people

That hate to lose blame everything on anything but themselves have limited understanding of the games mechanics

And would rather whinge and complain to change the game to suit them rather than just learning to play

 

I enjoy this post but notice these DEFENDERS of the WAY things ARE try again and again to write off any criticism of a system they obviously benefit from in hopes that it will never change.

 

Their typical response is: "Hey loser boy stop complaining and get better"

[Sweeet]

I enjoy this post but notice these DEFENDERS of the WAY things ARE try again and again to write off any criticism of a system they obviously benefit from in hopes that it will never change.

 

Their typical response is: "Hey loser boy stop complaining and get better"

 

It just proves how selfish some people can be. Even though something is blatantly hurting the game they defend it because it grows their epeen. I hope Bioware aren't actually listening to them, these aren't the type of people who should be having any kind of creative input on the game. Not when they can only see as far as their own gratification.

[Smashbrother]

First, the change to resolve to make it more forgiving for people accidentally overlapping stuns in pugs... People said it was going to be abused by coordinated teams... Oh look it is being abused by coordinated teams. And I'm not blaming the players, I'm blaming Bioware as they are the ones letting it happen.

 

The change to resolve did not affect good teams at all. They already coordinated CCs to not overlap. The resolve change only affected pugs where people just spam CCs all over the place. The fact that you think the resolve change can be abused somehow by good teams means you're just bad.

 

Second, non-incapacitating CC's need a form of diminishing returns. Being able to lock melee characters in place for prolonged periods of time whilst waiting for their resolve to wear down so you can stun or mezz them again shouldn't be possible.

 

Tell your teammates to stop being bad. There's this thing called cleanse. I have multiple melee and ranged chars, and roots/snares are fine as it is.

 

Third, burst damage is too high given the limited health pools currently. This one is self explanatory as you are either giving or receiving the damage so everyone should understand what is going on here.

 

No its not. Have you ever tried soloing a good healer? Can't do it. And if the healer happens to be an scoundrel, than even two people might not be able to kill him.

 

Those three points break PvP at a competitive level. Yes you can learn how to beat people at their own game if that is currently the best course of action in order to succeed, but that doesn't make it the right course of action for the game or the people playing it. especially those on the receiving end. PvP in it's current state hurts the game at a competitive level, which is why so few people play it competitively. Not just because it's so hard to get into now, but because certain features, burst, CC, are flat out broken.

 

Most people don't play RWZ because they're bad and don't like losing. I remember before RWZs came out, sooooo many people from so many guilds were talking **** about being the best. Then RWZs came out, and the vast majority of them got crushed by the legit best players, and all those people who thought they were the best got their egos crushed. This resulted in all these trash talkers QQing and quitting.

 

The only fix RWZ needs is cross-server so the game has a big enough pool where matchmaking can actually take place. That way the fights will be even, and you'll always be playing different teams. Trust me, it gets real old playing the same teams over and over and over again.

Edited November 2, 2012 by Smashbrother

[Invictusthetaru]

The only fix RWZ needs is cross-server so the game has a big enough pool where matchmaking can actually take place. That way the fights will be even, and you'll always be playing different teams. Trust me, it gets real old playing the same teams over and over and over again.

 

Agree with this as well, this is another reason they are stale.

[denpic]

It just proves how selfish some people can be. Even though something is blatantly hurting the game they defend it because it grows their epeen. I hope Bioware aren't actually listening to them, these aren't the type of people who should be having any kind of creative input on the game. Not when they can only see as far as their own gratification.

 

I pvp daily across 3 servers the only qq I see is on the forums by a small minority of players, Which tells me pvp is fine in its current state if you can't or dont want to be bothered to step up and Learn to be competitive that's your problem not ours but to come on the forums asking for the game to be dumbed down to suit you and expecting people to Agree is a bit much and to say people disagreeing are trying to maintain some kind of status quo is a joke. I have 3 50's 1 full war hero itemised 1 BM and 1 in recruit I play to have fun and find pvp in its current state to be just that weather I'm on my war hero or recruit.

The message I get from this post is the op got beat by a better team he can't be bothered to improve himself and thinks its easier to just come on here and complain.

[warultima]

Really you just realize all these today?

 

FotM Mara/Sin/Pt has always been there with 1.4 throw in smashingmonkeys.

 

But oh well, at least I got Mara/PT covered myself.

[Sweeet]

The change to resolve did not affect good teams at all. They already coordinated CCs to not overlap. The resolve change only affected pugs where people just spam CCs all over the place. The fact that you think the resolve change can be abused somehow by good teams means you're just bad.

 

Before the resolve change you could only be stunned for a max of 6 seconds because of the overlapping resolve, now you can be stunned for a full 8 seconds. 2 seconds is a very long time in competitive PvP.

 

Tell your teammates to stop being bad. There's this thing called cleanse. I have multiple melee and ranged chars, and roots/snares are fine as it is.

 

Cleanse, 5 second cooldown only castable on one player...and who's to say your healer(s) aren't being locked down?

 

No its not. Have you ever tried soloing a good healer? Can't do it. And if the healer happens to be an scoundrel, than even two people might not be able to kill him.

 

Well obviously they would have to adjust healing if they lowered damage...but you didn't think that far ahead did you?

 

Most people don't play RWZ because they're bad and don't like losing. I remember before RWZs came out, sooooo many people from so many guilds were talking **** about being the best. Then RWZs came out, and the vast majority of them got crushed by the legit best players, and all those people who thought they were the best got their egos crushed. This resulted in all these trash talkers QQing and quitting.

 

The only fix RWZ needs is cross-server so the game has a big enough pool where matchmaking can actually take place. That way the fights will be even, and you'll always be playing different teams. Trust me, it gets real old playing the same teams over and over and over again.

 

You don't think it's possible all these players left because they didn't like or enjoy what PvP had become? How quaint.