Legacy Wide datacrons

[Aries_cz]

Actually, the stat bonus is 40 to all stats, if you manage to collect all (including the +10 fleet datacron), so it is no major boost that would meant "life or death", not in OPS, and definitely not in WZ.

However, if you want to be "the best", you should take the time to train a arm yourself (gather your arsenal, your knowledge, your datacrons). Do not expect that some magical fairy of the past will appear and grant you all your ancestors knew...

[Aramyth]

I just wanted to add in saying that I would like this as well.

[YeIIow]

(gather your arsenal, your knowledge, your datacrons). Do not expect that some magical fairy of the past will appear and grant you all your ancestors knew...

 

every character is "me", so ur argument is invalid, furthermore: how is passing the datacrons knowledge between my characters any different than, my father passing his knowledge about a book he readed/or the book itself, to me?

[Kyozo]

Wanted this since February!

[KhodaKat]

I might be able to get behind this petition for the colored Matrix Shards, although I'm a little conflicted about it.

 

The +stat Datacrons? Not so much. Especially not the +10

 

They give a stat boost that should not be able to be purchased for Cartel Coins.

[Petnil]

imo it was a bad idea to ad stats to datacrons. It should be codex only.

 

Also if datacrons were ever to be legacy wide i would only want it to be the stats, not the codex. Probably not the shard ones either.

[AsheraII]

imo it was a bad idea to ad stats to datacrons. It should be codex only.

 

Also if datacrons were ever to be legacy wide i would only want it to be the stats, not the codex. Probably not the shard ones either.

I'd actually rather see them make the codex legacywide, but specifically not the stats.

The stats are NOT a must-have, no matter what some people try to make you believe. While they will help you handle content, their benefit is NOT that great that they magically allow you to beat content that you couldn't beat without them. People really overestimate the effects of some very minor stat increases.

10 endurance is ONLY 100 health. We're talking about characters with healthpools running into the 20,000 here, that's about half a percent.

10 Mainstat adds maybe 1 point to your DPS, if you include the crit bonus that is.

10 Secondary stat adds even less.

10 to another stat adds basically NOTHING.

 

So if min maxing is sooo important to you, then know that

you can already skip 2 out of 5 datacrons because they simply add nothing to your character,

and another 2 out of 5 you could do without because they add very little to your character, even the endurance one if you're a tank.

Well, that leaves about 20% of the Datacrons that you'd like to have on your character. They don't add much, but they help. They're NOT a necessity to handle any content.

And if you like to min/max, then work for it, instead of asking for everything to be given to you on a silver platter.

[MajikMyst]

Exactly, at one point does it become absurd?

 

- I did Black Hole weekly today, I need a Legacy Perk so I get the BH comms on all my toons.

- I killed all the World Bosses for my Aratech Coral and now I should be able to Legacy Perk the speeder to all my toons

- I just had sex with Jaxo, Legacy Perk so I can bang her with all my toons

 

Come on, stop the knee-jerk thinking and demanding everything be a Legacy Perk, it's already at a ridiculous level and threatening to become absurd. Before just coming here and "OMGLEGACYTHISQQ" sit back and think about it for a week and then revisit it. This shouldn't be the first place people go for every idle thought.

 

^^

 

/thread

[MajikMyst]

There are no class-specific datacrons.

 

Actually there is.. Strength datacrons are for classes that use strength... Willpower is for classes that use willpower... Cunning datacrons are for classes that use cunning... Aim datacrons are for classes that use aim..

 

Yes, some are for all.. But some are pointless to get... Cunning and aim are not going to do any good for a consular..

 

The only reason to get them all is the codex, and to just get them all..

 

Which I did..

Edited February 4, 2013 by MajikMyst

[MajikMyst]

/SIGNED

 

OMG... I have all but 2 on my Main including the +10 and I will tell you I will NEVER hunt for those for my other toons. Let me pass on all my work to my alts! Isn't that the basis for Legacy in the first place?

 

Just curious?? If by chance they do legacy these?? What makes you think you are going to get the 2 you do not have?? Don't you have to get them first for them to apply to your legacy??

 

Or are people really asking for bioware to just legacy datacrons so you don't have to get them at all??

 

Just curious??

[MajikMyst]

Lazy? I'm sorry, but that's a stupid argument to apply to a game.

 

People who don't want to take the shuttle to the orbital station and then to the planet are lazy.

People who use speeders, or even sprint, are lazy.

People who use group finder are lazy.

People who use quick travel are lazy - and don't even get me started on the emergency fleet pass!

People who use any of the legacy perks are lazy.

People who mail credits to an alt are lazy.

 

I'm not saying it should be removed from the game. I will say that this game is too grind-y as it is, and doesn't need more grind.

 

But people who don't want to explore and get the datacrons for both the lore and stats are lazy..

 

Is your claim that people who don't want to level a character aren't lazy?? Should leveling a character be legacy??

 

Just saying..

[JacenHallis]

Actually there is.. Strength datacrons are for classes that use strength... Willpower is for classes that use willpower... Cunning datacrons are for classes that use cunning... Aim datacrons are for classes that use aim..

Yet, BH/Troopers get some use out of Cunning, and Agent/Smugglers get some use out of Aim. Knight/Warriors get use out of Willpower, and Shadows and Assassins can use Strength.

 

And, even then, there's the experience bump that each datacron gives when found. As I said, there are no class-specific datacrons. They are there for everyone. A certain class might be able to get more use out of the actual stat than any other, but that doesn't mean it's class-specific.

 

Regarding the "small" stat bump: Define "small." Taken in total, we're talking +50 to endurance and your main stat, at the least. Sure, that seems small when you compare it to people with 20,000 health, but then think about how quickly a marauder or sentinel would try to snatch up a piece of armor if it offered 50 more endurance and strength than what he had while all other stats remain the same.

 

Every little bit helps. And you don't even have to "min-max" to see that.

[ObiJuanShenobi]

In favor. They also need to throw mounts into the legacy wide perk. I hate that the best rare mounts I have is on a toon I no longer play.

[Kilikaa]

I would support Legacy wide datacrons. They can include the xp and codex entries as well as stats. Any datacrons you found on one character will be unlocked for the rest. So if you are missing a few you have to find them on one character to unlock them for the rest, including the +10 if you are lucky enough to have gotten it.

 

I found them all on my Marauder with a friend. We are missing the +10, but have the rest. It's nuts to have to go and get them for the twelfth time, especially since some are so damn hard to get. So legacy wide with all benefits I support. Some things should not be given a legacy perk, but these should.

[PetFish]

The stats are NOT a must-have, no matter what some people try to make you believe. While they will help you handle content, their benefit is NOT that great that they magically allow you to beat content that you couldn't beat without them. People really overestimate the effects of some very minor stat increases.

10 endurance is ONLY 100 health. We're talking about characters with healthpools running into the 20,000 here, that's about half a percent.

10 Mainstat adds maybe 1 point to your DPS, if you include the crit bonus that is.

10 Secondary stat adds even less.

10 to another stat adds basically NOTHING.

 

So if min maxing is sooo important to you, then know that

you can already skip 2 out of 5 datacrons because they simply add nothing to your character,

and another 2 out of 5 you could do without because they add very little to your character, even the endurance one if you're a tank.

Well, that leaves about 20% of the Datacrons that you'd like to have on your character. They don't add much, but they help. They're NOT a necessity to handle any content.

And if you like to min/max, then work for it, instead of asking for everything to be given to you on a silver platter.

 

That last line sums up my feelings on this perfectly.

 

Now, I had to do the math myself on this cuz Google failed me or I failed the Internet, one or the other. It got complicated cuz some planets have faction-specific ones, free-for-all ones, or a mix of both.

 

Including the +10 here are the total stats to be gained from gathering ALL Datacrons:

 

Aim Pub: 43 Imp: 40

Cunning Pub: 37 Imp: 37

Endurance Pub: 39 Imp: 40 (+400 health)

Presence Pub: 38 Imp: 40

Strength Pub: 40 Imp: 40

Willpower Pub: 40 Imp: 40

 

The one stat that really helps everyone is Endurance, and you can see that if you get them all you get an extra 400 health. So if you say "400 health is nothing when you're talking about 20k health" then my question is why do people spend ~700,000 credits for purple augments that give them an extra 280 health (14 gear slots, 14x2x10) over the blue versions that cost only ~150,000 credits? Typically, the purple augments have +2 Endurance (and every stat) more than their equivalent blue versions.

 

The answer is that it gives them an edge over people that just have the blue augments, however small, it's still an edge. So people are willing to work hard to farm credits to buy these augments or make them themselves for the extra 280 health for that small edge but they aren't willing to work hard (it's not even hard, actually) to get the Datacrons, even *just* the Endurance ones, to give them an extra 400 health?

 

This is why Datacrons shouldn't be a Legacy perk. They give you an edge, however small it *may* be, over someone who doesn't have them. If you want that edge you should have to work for it and earn it, just like you do when you buy the purple augments.

 

People don't buy/make a purple augment and then say "Legacy so all my toons have it now", do they? But somehow people figure that Datacrons should be Legacy?

 

Let's say you have 0 credits and you want to buy a 60,000 credit purple augment that gives you +2 Endurance over the blue version. What's more difficult or time consuming, going to do Black Hole for 10-20 minutes to get the cash or going to Ilum for 2 minutes to pick up the Endurance +4 datacron that's just sitting there in the snow? You'd actually have to do Black Hole twice over 2 days to get enough credits to buy 2 purple augs to get the same +4 Endurance boost when you can just go get that bonus for free.

 

If you ignore the Datacrons on each planet while leveling then, yes, it sucks and it's a pain to go get them at 50 but that's your own fault. Every planet chain takes you close to every Datacron and if you get them while you're there it's a piece of cake.

 

Waiting until you're 50 and then demanding a Legacy perk so you don't have to go backtracking is absolutely 100% lazy.

Edited February 5, 2013 by PetFish

[oofalong]

...Including the +10 here are the total stats to be gained from gathering ALL Datacrons...

 

 

To clarify, the impact of the +40 datacrons are as follows:

• 420 more health derived from the Endurance Datacrons and the +10 and accounting for the Trooper/Bounty Hunter Class Buff
  
• 8.4 Increase to Bonus Damage. Depending on ability used this could mean ~2 more damage or ~20 more damage per attack. This includes the benefit of +40 and the Consular/Inquisitor Class Buff as well as the Jedi Knight/Sith Warrior Class Buff.
  
• 0.52% increase to crit chance to force/tech attacks and 0.19% increase to crit chance for all other attacks stemming from the boost to primary and secondary stats.
  
• Some boost to companion effectiveness which I haven't bothered quantifying yet.
  

 

Anyway, PetFish I thought I had you convinced back on Page 10 - what changed?

 

If you are opposed to this idea and have not read all of the posts in this thread at least go back and read my post #97 on Page 10. I believe I outlined a very solid argument, and one that so far no one has been able to refute with rational discourse.

 

EDIT: corrected miscalculation

Edited February 7, 2013 by oofalong
Incorrect data

[AsheraII]

To clarify, the impact of the +40 datacrons are as follows:

• 420 more health derived from the Endurance Datacrons and the +10 and accounting for the Trooper/Bounty Hunter Class Buff
  
• 8.82 Increase to Bonus Damage. Depending on ability used this could mean ~2 more damage or ~20 more damage per attack. This includes the benefit of +40 and the Consular/Inquisitor Class Buff as well as the Jedi Knight/Sith Warrior Class Buff.
  
• 0.52% increase to crit chance to force/tech attacks and 0.19% increase to crit chance for all other attacks stemming from the boost to primary and secondary stats.
  
• Some boost to companion effectiveness which I haven't bothered quantifying yet.
  

 

 

Anyway, PetFish I thought I had you convinced back on Page 10 - what changed?

 

If you are opposed to this idea and have not read all of the posts in this thread at least go back and read my post #97 on Page 10. I believe I outlined a very solid argument, and one that so far no one has been able to refute with rational discourse.

And our stance is that simply because those benefits are irrefutably marginal, a player who doesn't want to get all those datacrons won't miss them either. However, turning them into a Legacy-wide bonus takes AWAY from the gameplay of those who actually DO enjoy aquiring them. The variety of gameplay features and content available becomes LESS because of it.

 

Yes, it IS exactly the same as doing some operation on each character, or doing that same operation on one character and then have all your characters rewarded for it. To people who don't like operations but do want the gear from them, that would sound like an awesome idea. To someone who likes doing operations and progressing in both gear and content on different characters, that would be a blasphemy.

 

Don't like Datacron runs? Then don't do em, but don't ask for free rewards on all your characters either. We already get all kinds of free rewards on secondary characters for things we do on our main, and we don't really need any more. It might be nice if there were even more ways to progress your secondary characters through your main character, but NOT at the cost of unique existing content. Think up something NEW to add, instead of taking it away from completely optional game components you personally do not enjoy.

Edited February 5, 2013 by AsheraII

[CharlieBrown]

Made a suggestion to make most datacron unlocks available legacy wide after they have been unlocked by at least one character on your legacy. The unlock would cost credits or cartel coins.

 

Much more detail in the cartel suggestion post:

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=594402

 

Same suggestion from another poster:

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=594392

[Benets]

this idea already posted over and over, i think they don't mind, the suggestion forum is only to give us the illusion that we are making the difference. I've already made a lot of posts about a lot of things. I think very nice idea. Saw a lot of other ideas not hard to execute. So, my guess is this suggestion forum is to make us quiet, to calm players down.

 

Any way, said that if you want to check my ideas to see if really worth check it down:

 

Legacy

 

Patch 1.x Guilds

Guild HQs

Guild's Quests/Story

 

World PvP Ideas

Denova (Rep vs. Imp PvP planet)

World Pvp My Ilum Map

 

 

Story with different paths

 

Space Instance/Operation

[AdamGe]

Don't like Datacron runs? Then don't do em, but don't ask for free rewards on all your characters either. We already get all kinds of free rewards on secondary characters for things we do on our main, and we don't really need any more. It might be nice if there were even more ways to progress your secondary characters through your main character, but NOT at the cost of unique existing content. Think up something NEW to add, instead of taking it away from completely optional game components you personally do not enjoy.

 

If we didn't like datacrons, we wouldn't have done them in the first place. The point is we've done the work, we don't want to have to do it 12 times, and our legacy should be able to benefit... I thought that was the whole point of the legacy system anyway, to benefit your alts and encourage you to level more. Hell make it a high level legacy requirement, like 25 or 30 or something... I don't think there is really anything above 25 right now anyway is there?

[oofalong]

... turning them into a Legacy-wide bonus takes AWAY from the gameplay of those who actually DO enjoy aquiring them. The variety of gameplay features and content available becomes LESS because of it.

 

Turning it into a purchasable Legacy Wide datacron does nothing to diminish or affect your game play if you choose not to purchase the Legacy unlock. Again, the request is to make it a credit or Cartel Coin purchasable unlock just like the current Legacy unlock for HK-51.

 

Yes, it IS exactly the same as doing some operation on each character, or doing that same operation on one character and then have all your characters rewarded for it.

 

This is where your argument loses credibility. You keep asserting that "...it IS exactly the same..." as things that it is NOT exactly the same as. Let me demonstrate with your latest example. If I get gear from an Operation on one character that character can directly benefit from it or I can:

 

• Share the gear with an alt via Legacy armor and Bowcaster
  
• Sell the gear to a Vendor
  
• Reverse engineer the gear to learn the schematics or get mats
  
• Equip a companion with the gear
  

 

The proposed Legacy wide datacrons would not offer all of these options so to say "...it IS exactly the same..." is just wrong.

 

Still, I appreciate your perspective which I believe is:

 

Legacy Wide datacrons are not a necessary of a legacy unlock.

 

Does this sound right? This is absolutely a valid opinion and you are entitled to think so.

 

I also appreciate:

And our stance is that simply because those benefits are irrefutably marginal, a player who doesn't want to get all those datacrons won't miss them either.

 

My response is that they already gave away Recruit and Tionese Gear. I could believe sometime in the future that the stats from datacrons become irrelevant so before this happens BioWare could try to make money on it. Thus, those who want the marginal benefit can choose to purchase it.

 

To sum up, we both recognize the stat benefits are marginal. My response is to give them away because it doesn't matter, and your response is to restrict them because it doesn't matter. Neither is right or wrong on this point.

 

Further, I for one believe more legacy incentives mean more people will take the time to create alts. Thus, people are more engaged in the game. After all enjoying a new class's story is always better than waiting for the balloon on Tatooine or jumping around Nar Shaddaa. An engaged community is required for the long-term health of the game.

 

Do you not agree with this?

[AsheraII]

Turning it into a purchasable Legacy Wide datacron does nothing to diminish or affect your game play if you choose not to purchase the Legacy unlock. Again, the request is to make it a credit or Cartel Coin purchasable unlock just like the current Legacy unlock for HK-51.

 

 

 

This is where your argument loses credibility. You keep asserting that "...it IS exactly the same..." as things that it is NOT exactly the same as. Let me demonstrate with your latest example. If I get gear from an Operation on one character that character can directly benefit from it or I can:

 

• Share the gear with an alt via Legacy armor and Bowcaster
  
• Sell the gear to a Vendor
  
• Reverse engineer the gear to learn the schematics or get mats
  
• Equip a companion with the gear
  

 

The proposed Legacy wide datacrons would not offer all of these options so to say "...it IS exactly the same..." is just wrong.

 

Still, I appreciate your perspective which I believe is:

 

 

 

Does this sound right? This is absolutely a valid opinion and you are entitled to think so.

 

I also appreciate:

 

 

My response is that they already gave away Recruit and Tionese Gear. I could believe sometime in the future that the stats from datacrons become irrelevant so before this happens BioWare could try to make money on it. Thus, those who want the marginal benefit can choose to purchase it.

 

To sum up, we both recognize the stat benefits are marginal. My response is to give them away because it doesn't matter, and your response is to restrict them because it doesn't matter. Neither is right or wrong on this point.

 

Further, I for one believe more legacy incentives mean more people will take the time to create alts. Thus, people are more engaged in the game. After all enjoying a new class's story is always better than waiting for the balloon on Tatooine or jumping around Nar Shaddaa. An engaged community is required for the long-term health of the game.

 

Do you not agree with this?

The engaged community part I do agree with. On the rest, I'll merrily agree that we disagree

[oofalong]

@Asherall

 

Can you cite how specifically an optional purchasable Legacy wide datacron would impact your play? Seriously, I am interested to know how.

 

You really still believe that Legacy datacrons are exactly the same thing as replicating gear across you legacy? How are you able to dismiss the examples I provided?

 

I know you previously discounted my comparison to Legacy Class Buffs. I still contend that this is valid comparison.

 

I think the best comparison is that the max affection boosts from companions are already Legacy Wide. Across the 5 companions this contributes +1% to Accuracy, Crit, Surge, Max Health and Healing received. Surely, this is the best comparison to Legacy Wide datacrons. These are automatically applied, and all we are asking for with the datacrons is an opt-in option.

[AsheraII]

@Asherall

 

Can you cite how specifically an optional purchasable Legacy wide datacron would impact your play? Seriously, I am interested to know how.

It affects me exactly as much as gear replication from my Consular to my Agent would affect you: it doesn't affect your gameplay directly, but it DOES affect the sense of achievement you get when you gear up your second character in Dreadguard and I say "Meh, I already had Dreadguard on my secondary, never raided with it, Legacy perk".

 

And I know that Legacy gear, and no, those things don't realy compare. I know of the other benefits my secondary characters get from my main(s) as well. But still, those benefits do NOT justify removing an entire content type from those who like them. Yes, I can choose not to "opt-in". But what remains is a rather pointless and shallow gain, especially for the time spent on the more frustrating or time consuming datacrons (Coruscant, Nar Shaddaa, fleet). Since the complaints that people don't want to do it again involve mostly those three places: Coruscant, Nar Shaddaa and the Fleet. Maybe the balloontrip too, though that actually isn't a hard one, just boring. At least it isn't as long as it used to be. Other datacrons take just a few minutes.

 

Yes, Bioware did go a bit far on some crons, making us play platform games on an engine entirely unsuitable for platforming. I'd rather see them simplify a few of them, make them less susceptible to lag, move them to a new position which may be better hidden yet more easily accessible. But that's a different request. That's a request asking them to make the player NOT rely on unreliable gamesystems and mechanics like they have to now.

That is what players hate about the datacrons: making a jump, and the jump simply not registering, or registering that fraction of a second too late, making you bump your head against a beam and missing the landing spot, or resulting on jumping from a piece of surface that's slanted down instead of completely horizontal..

 

Players invest more time on things that don't give them any benefit. However, that time is invested into things less prone to frustratingly mess up out of their control for no apparent reason.

 

Instead of asking to turn the datacrons into legacy perks, ask yourself WHY you don't want to do datacrons again, what's wrong about them, which ones specifically don't you like?

And for legacy perks, to encourage people to make alts: suggest additional things to unlock legacy perks, instead of removing them elsewhere.

It'd also be an option to keep the datacrons characterbound, but give the Legacy a +1 bonus to cunning for unlocking all cunning datacrons on that character, Legacywide +1 willpower for unlocking all willpower datacrons on that character, etc. Additive for all characters within the legacy. So the more you do it, the bigger that Legacywide bonus gets. Upto +22 for having it on all the characters you can have on a server.

 

That is how you create a Legacy perk without making existing gameplay redundant.

At the same time: gameplay should remain balanced around NOT having any datacrons or Legacy perks at all. They're meant as perks for progress, not requirements for progress.

[oofalong]

It affects me exactly as much as gear replication from my Consular to my Agent would affect you: it doesn't affect your gameplay directly, but it DOES affect the sense of achievement you get when you gear up your second character in Dreadguard and I say "Meh, I already had Dreadguard on my secondary, never raided with it, Legacy perk".

 

And I know that Legacy gear, and no, those things don't realy compare. I know of the other benefits my secondary characters get from my main(s) as well. But still, those benefits do NOT justify removing an entire content type from those who like them. Yes, I can choose not to "opt-in". But what remains is a rather pointless and shallow gain, especially for the time spent on the more frustrating or time consuming datacrons (Coruscant, Nar Shaddaa, fleet). Since the complaints that people don't want to do it again involve mostly those three places: Coruscant, Nar Shaddaa and the Fleet. Maybe the balloontrip too, though that actually isn't a hard one, just boring. At least it isn't as long as it used to be. Other datacrons take just a few minutes.

 

Yes, Bioware did go a bit far on some crons, making us play platform games on an engine entirely unsuitable for platforming. I'd rather see them simplify a few of them, make them less susceptible to lag, move them to a new position which may be better hidden yet more easily accessible. But that's a different request. That's a request asking them to make the player NOT rely on unreliable gamesystems and mechanics like they have to now.

That is what players hate about the datacrons: making a jump, and the jump simply not registering, or registering that fraction of a second too late, making you bump your head against a beam and missing the landing spot, or resulting on jumping from a piece of surface that's slanted down instead of completely horizontal..

 

Players invest more time on things that don't give them any benefit. However, that time is invested into things less prone to frustratingly mess up out of their control for no apparent reason.

 

Instead of asking to turn the datacrons into legacy perks, ask yourself WHY you don't want to do datacrons again, what's wrong about them, which ones specifically don't you like?

And for legacy perks, to encourage people to make alts: suggest additional things to unlock legacy perks, instead of removing them elsewhere.

It'd also be an option to keep the datacrons characterbound, but give the Legacy a +1 bonus to cunning for unlocking all cunning datacrons on that character, Legacywide +1 willpower for unlocking all willpower datacrons on that character, etc. Additive for all characters within the legacy. So the more you do it, the bigger that Legacywide bonus gets. Upto +22 for having it on all the characters you can have on a server.

 

That is how you create a Legacy perk without making existing gameplay redundant.

At the same time: gameplay should remain balanced around NOT having any datacrons or Legacy perks at all. They're meant as perks for progress, not requirements for progress.

 

Thanks for responding. You raise a number of fair points. Like you said before, we'll agree to disagree.

 

As to why, I don't got back and get all of the datacrons on alts, it is simple. I have 10 characters that I play, but only 3 level 50s. Rather than taking the time to hunt down datacrons for each additional character, I would rather spend credits/Cartel Coins to get the datacrons. Thus, I could spend that time playing through class quests and leveling. The sense of accomplishment I got from getting all of the datacrons the first time was great, and it was fun to explore new areas. Now, it is annoying and tedious for me.

 

Incidentally, while the fleet datacron is frustrating, I do wish more of the datacrons required groups to access. At least that would add some social upside to datacron hunting.