Legacy Wide datacrons

[Ratajack]

See folks, this is a classic example of the logical fallacy called "shifting the goalposts." Ratajack criticizes the idea for being about laziness, and when I address his claim with counterarguments, he ignores my arguments and switches to a completely different argument about copying bonuses. This is fairly representative of the vocal minority (honestly guys there's only about 4 or 5 of you) arguing against the legacy datacron idea - they don't have a coherent reason to deny the change, so they resort to an online gish gallop. Watch as they divert away from their new points once those are addressed (actually I'd be pleased if they wouldn't but I'm not sure they know how to rationally debate).

 

Based on your last statement about HK, I can only assume that you'd be okay with legacy datacrons if you had to pay per character to share them? That would be exactly analogous to HK - do the mission line once, use CC or credits to share with other characters on a per need basis.

 

Does HK-51 give ANY stat increases to the character?

 

As to my being "ok" with it on a per character basis, I am against coddling and enabling those too lazy to put forth a modicum of effort to actually EARN those bonuses on every character. I have, however, offered what I consider to be a reasonable compromise.

 

IF they decide to implement legacy wide datacrons, I would hope that they do it something like this:

 

1.) Datacron unlocks would be faction based, an unlock for imperial characters and an unlock for republic characters. In order to be eligible for the unlock for a given faction, a single character on that faction must find all the datacrons available for that faction.

 

2.) There should be a high legacy level requirement, one that CANNOT be bypassed by throwing money at BW via the CM. After all, we are talking about "legacy", not CM, right. This unlock should not be put on the CM and should be only via legacy. By high legacy level, I'm talking about legacy 35-40. If they made it legacy 50 required, so much the better. To balance the high legacy requirement, making it a legacy perk as opposed to a character perk would be appropriate. Also in order to balance the high legacy requirement, making it an "automatic" legacy unlock once all requirements have been met or charging a miniscule fee, such as 1000 credits, as opposed to a million or more to "purchase" the unlock would be appropriate.

 

3.) The stat bonuses should not be "gifted" until a character reaches max level. If a player wants the stat bonus before reaching max level, they can find the datacron.

 

 

 

For everyone against copying, would it be okay if I could transfer bonuses between characters? Only one character would have them at a time. I'd just mail them around like an armor set in legacy gear. That would be fine right?

 

It would be kind of hard to send a stat increase around in the mail. That would be like a player using a stim on their assassin and having their mercenary get the boost.

 

See, there I looked at the content of their arguments and directly addressed their points. Let's see if they can do the same and then we'd actually be having a discussion instead of whatever it is we're doing.

[Ryric]

Yay you actually did address my arguments! I feel less like I'm talking to 5 walls!

Ratajack I am fine with your stated conditions. I'd be ok if it required Legacy 50, datacron Master achievement, 10 mil credits, and still didn't apply until each character hit 55. At least the option would be there.

 

To address stat incerases in the mail, it is possible. My 55 biochem can use a purple stat booster, mail it to another biochem, and that other can get the same stat boost at the same time from the same item! The end is here!

 

Majikmyst, it is not moving the goalposts to discuss points others have brought up. The fallacy you're trying to accuse me of is false analogy - you don't think the comparison is apt. Fair enough, I think the HK comparison is weak; I'm not the one who originally brought it up. To address your points, warzones, ops, fps, and dailies are pretty much what endgame content is. If a players doesn't enjoy doing any of those they should probably start an alt or quit playing. Most players find doing those over and over again fun - and doing that content uses skills that anyone has just from playing the game until that point.

 

Datacrons are different - getting several of them requires platforming and jumping skills which aren't needed anywhere else. Many people find waiting 40 minutes for the balloon, only to miss the jump onto the sandcrawler, to be unfun. Many people find waiting for the slowly moving platforms on Corellia to be unfun. Many people find starting a 10 minute process over because the game has clunky controls to be unfun. I think these people should be able to get through these unfun parts once then not have to repeat them if they'd rather not. You compare this to somehow getting BiS gear or similar things - I think of it more like using XP boosts to skip planetary missions you don't like. Levels= stat points.

[MajikMyst]

Majikmyst, it is not moving the goalposts to discuss points others have brought up. The fallacy you're trying to accuse me of is false analogy - you don't think the comparison is apt. Fair enough, I think the HK comparison is weak; I'm not the one who originally brought it up. To address your points, warzones, ops, fps, and dailies are pretty much what endgame content is. If a players doesn't enjoy doing any of those they should probably start an alt or quit playing. Most players find doing those over and over again fun - and doing that content uses skills that anyone has just from playing the game until that point.

 

So why can't datacrons be in the same boat as end game.. After all, getting them is useless unless you are going to play end game.. See, you just killed your own argument.. It is a moot issue to consider getting them if all you are going to do is roll another character.. Again, it is a player choice.. Why should the game be changed to accommodate those that are lazy??

 

There is no fallacy in my words.. I simply used your own words and accusation against you.. You don't have to agree with them.. But they are accurate..

 

There is simply no reason to make datacrons legacy.. There just isn't.. Bioware doesn't need to enable the lazy people that don't actually want to play the game.. There by ruining for the rest of us..

 

Datacrons are different - getting several of them requires platforming and jumping skills which aren't needed anywhere else. Many people find waiting 40 minutes for the balloon, only to miss the jump onto the sandcrawler, to be unfun. Many people find waiting for the slowly moving platforms on Corellia to be unfun. Many people find starting a 10 minute process over because the game has clunky controls to be unfun. I think these people should be able to get through these unfun parts once then not have to repeat them if they'd rather not. You compare this to somehow getting BiS gear or similar things - I think of it more like using XP boosts to skip planetary missions you don't like. Levels= stat points.

 

Actually that is not true.. Have you done the 'Seeker Droid' and 'Macrobinocular' quests??

 

No?? Didn't think so.. So the datacrons require jumping.. Jumping?!?!??!?!? WOW!!! Jumping is so hard!!! I'll never be able to do this.. Just plaster 'LOSER at Jumping' on my head.. Give me a break.. This isn't the first game that uses jumping.. And this game is no worse than some other games.. That is such a lame excuse.. Jumping it to hard?? Really??

 

40 minute balloon ride, if they are they are waiting for that then they deserve to wait.. I have those datacrons on all my characters.. I have never used the balloon.. Find a shadow or a trooper to bump you up.. I have helped 100's of people on my shadow.. There is a reason there are 100's of websites with a walk through to help people get them.. You can get them all in about two hours..Except the +10 to all stats on the fleet.. That just requires couple people to help and hopefully a sage.. Guilds come in handy for this.. You can also just organize one on chat.. You don't have to get them all at once either.. It would help to pick some up while questing.. If you done them at least once then you can move all the little tools you need to get some of them so make sure the toon you are collecting them on has them.. This isn't brain surgery..

 

Again it is all about choice.. Not lame excuses.. If they want the stats on their character then they will get the datacrons.. It is that simple and that is the only answer.. If they are to lazy or feel it is to unfun.. Then fine they can leave without them.. But why should they get the datacrons for free and without effort?? Did you even read my posts?? You can call it end game.. But it is all playing the game.. Being end game doesn't change my point.. Nor does it make it less valid.. People have a choice as to what they do or don't do.. And they have to live with the consequences of those choices.. No datacrons means no stats for that character.. It is simple as that.. If they want the stats then they need to go and get them.. Not complain on the forum and demand them for free..

 

Whatever happened to looking at a challenge like a challenge and striving to persever?? I guess that isn't the in thing now.. People just scream and yell for the bad game designer to make it easier for them.. How much easier does this game have to be???

 

Edit: I spent 3 hours trying to figure out how to get one of the datacrons on Taris.. This was during the beta.. No website walk throughs.. Constantly fighting mobs.. Dying from mobs too.. I got it.. I got all of the ones I found.. What people have to do now is easy sauce.. I had to figure it out on my own with no help.. Now there is websites to help you.. People have no excuse.. If they want them then they should get them.. Otherwise they should do without..

Edited August 25, 2013 by MajikMyst

[LadyDarkkitten]

Having missed the jump on the jawa ballon several times, wasted 3 hours in coruscant until I finally gave up and just generally had a VERY bad time trying to get crons on various alts can I just say I HATE PLATFORM GAMES. There I said it. It isnt fun and I dont enjoy or succeed at it, but for max lev pvp I need to do it.

 

Bioware PLEASE TAKE MY MONEY and give me legacy wide datacrons.

[LadyDarkkitten]

So w....

 

....

Edit: I spent 3 hours trying to figure out how to get one of the datacrons on Taris.. This was during the beta.. No website walk throughs.. Constantly fighting mobs.. Dying from mobs too.. I got it.. I got all of the ones I found.. What people have to do now is easy sauce.. I had to figure it out on my own with no help.. Now there is websites to help you.. People have no excuse.. If they want them then they should get them.. Otherwise they should do without..

 

We get it. You enjoy platform games, discovering stuff and moving your character about. Most of the posters here dont. How does it affect YOU if I only have to do something I find unfun once? It doesnt. In the same way it doesnt affect me if you choose not to grind pvp gear and instead use a set of 66 gear and bolster to make you competitive.

 

Surely its better if we could al enjoy the game? Or does EVERYTHING have to be about walking uphill barefoot in the snow?

[MajikMyst]

Bioware PLEASE TAKE MY MONEY and give me legacy wide datacrons.

 

What is the point in playing the game if that is your response.. Take my money and give it to me without the effort..

 

Can I say the same thing about ops?? Can't they just take my money and let me gear my toons??

 

I am sorry you are having problems.. You can give up if you want.. But you should live with that choice...

[MajikMyst]

We get it. You enjoy platform games, discovering stuff and moving your character about. Most of the posters here dont. How does it affect YOU if I only have to do something I find unfun once? It doesnt. In the same way it doesnt affect me if you choose not to grind pvp gear and instead use a set of 66 gear and bolster to make you competitive.

 

Surely its better if we could al enjoy the game? Or does EVERYTHING have to be about walking uphill barefoot in the snow?

 

Actually it will effect me.. Everyone including me will use legacy datacrons if it is available.. In fact Bioware may as well remove them from the game.. Nobody will get them.. That is just a fact.. So it will effect everyone.. How can you not see that??

 

I don't enjoy every aspect of the game.. I hate doing dailies.. But I do them on multiple toons to get the coms and the credits.. I hate PVP.. But I did it to earn the valor I needed to wear a specific chest piece.. I made the choice.. I could either do the PVP to earn the valor to wear the chest piece or not wear that chest piece ever.. 70 valor is not something you can earn over night.. It took some time.. A lot more time than getting all the datacrons.. The choice is yours.. And you should have to live with that choice..

 

Yes.. Everything must about walking uphill in the snow, both ways to school and you must tell us how you killed a polar bear with your loose leaf notebook..

 

People can enjoy the game.. But people also need to not demand changes to the game to accommodate themselves without considering what it will do the rest of us.. People also need to learn to live with the choices they make.. As I have said many times before.. Demanding Bioware change the game because something is to hard is not the answer.. It never has been and never will be.. You claim it won't effect me or anyone else.. It will effect everyone.. It is like saying that adding speeders won't effect anyone.. Everyone will just keep walking.. We all know that isn't the case, don't we.. Legacy datacrons will be no different.. Everyone will use it and totally ruin datacrons forever.. Like I said.. They should just be removed from the game at that point.. Getting them will be a distant memory..

Edited August 25, 2013 by MajikMyst

[Ryric]

Actually it will effect me.. Everyone including me will use legacy datacrons if it is available.. In fact Bioware may as well remove them from the game.. Nobody will get them.. That is just a fact.. So it will effect everyone.. How can you not see that??

 

You do realize that this paragraph, besides just being an unsubstantiated assertion, is an admission that you would use this system you are arguing so hard against? Hypocrite much?

 

Sure,many people would use it - how is that not an argument for it? New players will have to get them the normal way at least once, and all these people who apparently love collecting them the normal way will keep doing it because according to them it's so easy and fun. Why spend credits or CCs when it only takes a few minutes anyway.

 

Games are about fun, not work. If you are treating this game like its work maybe you should reassess your priorities. If I didn't enjoy dailies, flashpoints, and ops I wouldn't do them. Making my numbers bigger isn't that important.

 

Personally, I'm actually pretty good at datacrons and have gotten a good set of them on 5 characters. See, letting other people play the game the way they like doesn't invalidate my playstyle. Implementing legacy wide datacrons would get most of my guys +4-8 to their stats - but just because the benefit to me is small doesn't make it a bad idea.

[JacenHallis]

This whole idea that she was a Cartel Market item.. What difference does that make and who cares??

Ask the person who brought her up. He stated that Treek was placed on the market so that people could bypass her Legacy requirement, when, in fact, it was the opposite. She was placed in the Legacy window so people could bypass the market.

 

I believe it has something to do with people wanting a Legacy Level 50 requirement to unlock the datacrons, which is acceptable, I think.

[Eitetsu]

Looking at this from a flavor standpoint: I find all the datacrons on my first character. He's the "founder" or "father" of my "legacy" for the "legacy system" within the game. The datacrons contain "ancient knowledge" (read the codex entries guise!) that "increase your power." Now, why wouldn't my character pass that knowledge on to his heirs directly? I think it's safe to assume that your character "collected" the artifact, but for game mechanics reasons, obviously, the object has to be left in the world.

 

In addition, we now have achievements that are tracked across your account (your legacy), which includes datacrons.

 

Datacrons are definitely "legacy items" if you ask me. At the very least, they *qualify*.

[Ratajack]

Looking at this from a flavor standpoint: I find all the datacrons on my first character. He's the "founder" or "father" of my "legacy" for the "legacy system" within the game. The datacrons contain "ancient knowledge" (read the codex entries guise!) that "increase your power." Now, why wouldn't my character pass that knowledge on to his heirs directly? I think it's safe to assume that your character "collected" the artifact, but for game mechanics reasons, obviously, the object has to be left in the world.

 

In addition, we now have achievements that are tracked across your account (your legacy), which includes datacrons.

 

Datacrons are definitely "legacy items" if you ask me. At the very least, they *qualify*.

 

The character that finds the datacron can certainly tell his "heirs" about it, which would be akin to a legacy CODEX.

 

When you use a datacron, it specifically tells you it is a ONE TIME use. You use it on that character and gain the stat bonus on THAT character. While you can pass the knowledge of the datacron to your "heirs", you cannot pass the stat bonus.

[Elfa]

We do not make the rules here.. We can make all the suggestions we want.. But is always up to Bioware..

 

I would say that Makeb largely answered that question.. The new datacrons were pretty fun to get.. Especially the +10 to endurance one..

 

There is no point to making them legacy.. There is no reason, and there is no logical argument.. That is simply a fact.. They are there for those that put forth the effort to get them.. If you don't, then you live without the stats.. Legacy was never created as a means to allow people to side step playing the game.. If you are bored and don't want to get the datacrons, then don't.. Nobody is forcing you.. But your boredom is no reason to change the game.. It just isn't..

 

Are you to bored to do dailies?? Are to bored to do Warzones?? Are to bored to run Ops or Flash Points?? It is the same principle.. You want that awesome gear, you want those credits, you got to earn them.. The datacrons are no different..

 

Do them or don't do them, is your choice..

 

There is a point to making them Legacy wide and there is a logical reason. They are fun to do the first time but not the ninth time or the sixteenth time. If you don't like it then don't do it reasoning on the other hand is and always has been a garbage argument without any merit.

[Ratajack]

There is a point to making them Legacy wide and there is a logical reason. They are fun to do the first time but not the ninth time or the sixteenth time. If you don't like it then don't do it reasoning on the other hand is and always has been a garbage argument without any merit.

 

By your logic, the person who finds leveling fun to do the first time, but not the ninth or sixteenth should be able to create max level characters since he doesn't find the leveling process fun.

 

Let's change the game so that you only ever have to do a given task once, then you can reap the benefits for doing that task once on every current and future character. After all, everyone has something about the fame that they don't find fun.

[Stoofa]

Every time I see these threads appear I worry - worry that once again the vocal minority are going to get their way and something like this is going to be added.

I don't want games where you do something once and that's it - all characters past, present and future automatically get the reward for doing said thing.

I want more things like Datacrons - something that takes a little effort and only achieves something for that character.

 

I keep watching for potential things that could be added to the game that will cause me to seriously consider continuing play. The first was rumours of "droids" being a playable race - that would have been an instant leave for me.

Now I'm seeing this rearing it's ugly head again and the only "for argument" however cleverly hidden or disguised is "I don't want to have to do a Datacron more than once".

So BW, if you are reading this thread, please see that as the only actual argument for this feature and smack it on the head now.

[Ryric]

Every time I see these threads appear I worry - worry that once again the vocal minority are going to get their way and something like this is going to be added.

I don't want games where you do something once and that's it - all characters past, present and future automatically get the reward for doing said thing.

I want more things like Datacrons - something that takes a little effort and only achieves something for that character.

 

I keep watching for potential things that could be added to the game that will cause me to seriously consider continuing play. The first was rumours of "droids" being a playable race - that would have been an instant leave for me.

Now I'm seeing this rearing it's ugly head again and the only "for argument" however cleverly hidden or disguised is "I don't want to have to do a Datacron more than once".

So BW, if you are reading this thread, please see that as the only actual argument for this feature and smack it on the head now.

 

Both sides of every issue on the internet think the other side is the vocal minority. A quick glance through this thread shows that there are far more unique "for" posters than "against," but that is of course not conclusive.

 

Of course the only "for" argument is that we want it - what else would there be?

The only "against" "argument" seems to be "I don't want other people to have it." So there we are.

 

I wish someone in the "against" camp would actually have a grasp of how to argue a subject, and understand things like hyperbole, shifting the goalposts, and economic concepts like opportunity costs. Instead we get the same tired points and fallacies over and over.

[CMoldas]

Yes, yes, yes we need to Legacy unlock datacrons!!!

 

I mean, we went through the effort to find them once right?

[Ratajack]

Yes, yes, yes we need to Legacy unlock datacrons!!!

 

I mean, we went through the effort to find them once right?

 

Effort put forth on ONE character does NOT equate to ALL characters receiving the benefits of that effort.

 

If you complete a quest, you gain the xp only on the character that actually completed the quest. If you participate in warzones, you gain the valor only on the character that participated in the warzone. If you compete an FP, you only gain the social points on the character that competed the FP.

 

The same goes for datacrons. If you find the datacron on one character, you only get the stat bonus on that character. It's the same principle.

[Ratajack]

Both sides of every issue on the internet think the other side is the vocal minority. A quick glance through this thread shows that there are far more unique "for" posters than "against," but that is of course not conclusive.

 

Of course the only "for" argument is that we want it - what else would there be?

The only "against" "argument" seems to be "I don't want other people to have it." So there we are.

 

I wish someone in the "against" camp would actually have a grasp of how to argue a subject, and understand things like hyperbole, shifting the goalposts, and economic concepts like opportunity costs. Instead we get the same tired points and fallacies over and over.

 

The only "for" argument boils down to laziness, or the aversion to the minimal effort required to actually EARN those bonuses on each character.

 

The "against" argument boils down to "let's not cater to those who are averse to even minimal effort and let's keep some things in the 'have to be earned' category".

 

People have put forth very cogent and logical reasons why some things are better left in the "have to be earned" category. You simply choose to dismiss them for a variety of reasons because they do not mesh with your desires.

[CrispenGray]

Ratajack -- would you be willing to consider it if it had the following requirements?

 

1) The individual must have "Datacron Master" achievement -- they have managed to grab every datacron in the game already, including those only available to one faction or another.

 

2) The individual must have a high legacy level -- perhaps 40 or even 50.

 

3) The individual must pay cartel coins to unlock it.

 

If they have achieved the first two, I don't think "laziness" is still an appropriate argument. And the third assures that only those who want it get it, rather than having it automatically foisted on those who would rather do the datacron hunt on a per-character basis. It also means that those who hate the datacron hunt can still work towards achieving a point where they don't need to do it anymore.

 

I've got all the datacrons on my two mains, but I'll admit that I haven't gotten around to getting them on my secondary toons, simply because I loathe the jumping puzzles. I do not find them fun. It's not laziness -- it's a matter of taste and what people find fun. Platforming in a game with imprecise jumping is not going to be everyone's cup of tea.

 

Your other argument, that of "Well, if we did that, why not just make leveling skippable?", is a slippery-slope argument, and it's a logical fallacy. Leveling is core to the whole game; if you want to skip that, why play the game at all? Datacrons are NOT core to the whole game; they are optional, and while some people enjoy hunting them, others do not.

 

So, with that in mind -- is my above suggestion an acceptable compromise?

[Ratajack]

Ratajack -- would you be willing to consider it if it had the following requirements?

 

1) The individual must have "Datacron Master" achievement -- they have managed to grab every datacron in the game already, including those only available to one faction or another.

 

2) The individual must have a high legacy level -- perhaps 40 or even 50.

 

3) The individual must pay cartel coins to unlock it.

 

If they have achieved the first two, I don't think "laziness" is still an appropriate argument. And the third assures that only those who want it get it, rather than having it automatically foisted on those who would rather do the datacron hunt on a per-character basis. It also means that those who hate the datacron hunt can still work towards achieving a point where they don't need to do it anymore.

 

I've got all the datacrons on my two mains, but I'll admit that I haven't gotten around to getting them on my secondary toons, simply because I loathe the jumping puzzles. I do not find them fun. It's not laziness -- it's a matter of taste and what people find fun. Platforming in a game with imprecise jumping is not going to be everyone's cup of tea.

 

Your other argument, that of "Well, if we did that, why not just make leveling skippable?", is a slippery-slope argument, and it's a logical fallacy. Leveling is core to the whole game; if you want to skip that, why play the game at all? Datacrons are NOT core to the whole game; they are optional, and while some people enjoy hunting them, others do not.

 

So, with that in mind -- is my above suggestion an acceptable compromise?

 

It matters not if they have found all the datacrons and have the datacron master achievement. If a player is averse to the minimal effort required to actually EARN those bonuses on every character and wants his alts to reap the benefits of work done on other characters, then laziness is still the appropriate term.

 

I am against coddling and enabling, in any manner, those too lazy to actually EARN the things they want.

 

That said, though, I posted this earlier:

 

IF they decide to implement legacy wide datacrons, I would hope that they do it something like this:

 

1.) Datacron unlocks would be faction based, an unlock for imperial characters and an unlock for republic characters. In order to be eligible for the unlock for a given faction, a single character on that faction must find all the datacrons available for that faction.

 

2.) There should be a high legacy level requirement, one that CANNOT be bypassed by throwing money at BW via the CM. After all, we are talking about "legacy", not CM, right. This unlock should not be put on the CM and should be only via legacy. By high legacy level, I'm talking about legacy 35-40. If they made it legacy 50 required, so much the better. To balance the high legacy requirement, making it a legacy perk as opposed to a character perk would be appropriate. Also in order to balance the high legacy requirement, making it an "automatic" legacy unlock once all requirements have been met or charging a miniscule fee, such as 1000 credits, as opposed to a million or more to "purchase" the unlock would be appropriate.

 

3.) The stat bonuses should not be "gifted" until a character reaches max level. If a player wants the stat bonus before reaching max level, they can find the datacron.

 

 

I am also smart enough to know that if they required a high legacy level to unlock the legacy perk, that the "have to have it now" crowd would pitch a fit and complain that "it's not fair" and they "don't want to wait".

Edited August 27, 2013 by Ratajack

[AlexDougherty]

I like the idea of Legacy Wide Datacrons, the ballon ride on Tattooine is particularly boring, let alone 8+ times.

 

Just make it a high cost (but not too high), make it faction based, exclude shard datacrons, and make it that you have to land on the planet before you get the datacrons for that planet.

 

But please make it happen.

[Ratajack]

I like the idea of Legacy Wide Datacrons, the ballon ride on Tattooine is particularly boring, let alone 8+ times.

 

Just make it a high cost (but not too high), make it faction based, exclude shard datacrons, and make it that you have to land on the planet before you get the datacrons for that planet.

 

But please make it happen.

 

Should the person who finds leveling to be extremely boring be able to skip the leveling process and just create max level characters? Should the person who finds the whole gear grind to be extremely boring be able to skip that process and just create characters with BIS gear, or be handed BIS gear when that character reaches max level? Should the person who finds the valor grind to be extremely boring be handed valor 70 when they create that new character? Should the person who finds the social grind to be extremely boring be handed social 10 when they create that new character?

 

Or is it only those aspects of the game YOU find boring that should be able to be skipped?

[Ryric]

Should the person who finds leveling to be extremely boring be able to skip the leveling process and just create max level characters? Should the person who finds the whole gear grind to be extremely boring be able to skip that process and just create characters with BIS gear, or be handed BIS gear when that character reaches max level? Should the person who finds the valor grind to be extremely boring be handed valor 70 when they create that new character? Should the person who finds the social grind to be extremely boring be handed social 10 when they create that new character?

 

Or is it only those aspects of the game YOU find boring that should be able to be skipped?

 

I'm also in favor of legacy wide valor and social.

 

I think after this I'm done discussing with Ratajack. He's already admitted that he's conditionally okay with the idea if it has stringent requirements. He keeps using the same tired slippery slope hyperbole, or his idea that laziness is a negative trait when used as a motivation for a convenience feature in a game. If you get some new, non-fallacious, arguments, I'd love to hear them. Otherwise, saying the same logical fallacies over and over doesn't make them magically true.

[Mowermanx]

Worst idea Ive seen on the forums.

No way.

[ChrisMattar]

I second this its necessary and urgent