Tim-ONeil Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 Alright, so in this situation your definition of gambling is paying real currency for a 'chance' at an item you want. We pay 15$ a month for a 'chance' at a particular item we want from HMs, raids, and REing items. By your standards the game itself should be a gamble. The RNG involved means we are paying 15$ but are not guaranteed the drops we desire. The loot bags have a loot table. Some items are undoubtedly going to have a lower chance of spawning than others. But the bag is no different than a player buying a Flashpoint Loot pass. In fact it is the exact same due to the above statement that our subscription could 'technically' be considered gambling due tot he RNG nature of loot drops. I guess if we are going to consider the loot bags as gambling, we need to consider every other RNG aspect of the game in the same light so long as we have to pay. 100% correct. The standard either applies to all items in this category or none of them. Logically we can't make a distinction between them because we are 'opposed' to one of them more so than another. It's a hollow argument since there is NOTHING forcing a player to choose to obtain packs and Bioware has even given us a way to obtain the items without interacting with the packs themselves in any manner (purchase through the GTN). This thread is based on two false premises. First that Bioware would back off the proven F2P strategy they have chosen based on a few that are raging against it on their forum. Realizing that they lost that argument the thread switches gears to the whole 'it's gambling/illegal/immoral' argument which is debunked above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CelCawdro Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 (edited) No it's gambling buy the mechanism in which it is implemented. Randomization implies a form of gambeling. In this case it really IS gambeling as you are trading IRL cash for these items. Randomization, while sometimes associated with gambling, is not an integral part of gambling. Risk is. And there is no risk to be found here. You get exactly what is listed, no chance for loss. Being guaranteed an item, as you state here, is in no way gambling. Edited October 24, 2012 by CelCawdro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSchmo Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 I could also buy a billion bags of chips trying to find one shaped like Abraham Lincoln. It doesn't mean I'm gambling. Nice analogy lol. But I like to compare it to a pack of baseball cards. You know going into it that you don't know what you're getting. There is the risk of getting a duplicate, but also a chance of getting that ultra rare sought after gem. Then of course you know you're always going to get the cruddy piece of gum that leaves a bad taste in your mouth. We all know it's in there, but we buy it anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CelCawdro Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 Actually, it does. On a personal level, perhaps. But not in a legal or corporate sense. The Doritos company is not endorsing gambling - it is completely of my own invention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackavaar Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 It's a business and these are non essential items. Yeah, until they make the Luke Skywalker; Return of the Jedi outfit and put it in a grab bag. Then your tune will change, won't it? I agree, these "get lucky boxes" are a bad idea and will lose them more business than it will gain them. Don't do it, BioWare. Having grab bags is fine. Putting exclusive items in them is not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CelCawdro Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 Nice analogy lol. But I like to compare it to a pack of baseball cards. You know going into it that you don't know what you're getting. There is the risk of getting a duplicate, but also a chance of getting that ultra rare sought after gem. Then of course you know you're always going to get the cruddy piece of gum that leaves a bad taste in your mouth. We all know it's in there, but we buy it anyway. You're quite right in your analogy. And what government defines buying baseball cards as a form of gambling and regulates it as such? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urael Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 Randomization, while sometimes associated with gambling, is not an integral part of gambling. Risk is. And there is no risk to be found here. You get exactly what is listed, no chance for loss. Being guaranteed an item, as you state here, is in no way gambling. No you are not guarenteed that the items will be of use. Sure you clear state the "class" of items contained but, you risk the "exact" item. Because there is an element of chance by definition it is a gamble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim-ONeil Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 Yeah, until they make the Luke Skywalker; Return of the Jedi outfit and put it in a grab bag. Then your tune will change, won't it? I agree, these "get lucky boxes" are a bad idea and will lose them more business than it will gain them. Don't do it, BioWare. Having grab bags is fine. Putting exclusive items in them is not. No, I will realize that I will then acquire the item through the GTN in this model. I'll stop getting mad over the fairness of the system and enjoy my new outfit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urael Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 (edited) You're quite right in your analogy. And what government defines buying baseball cards as a form of gambling and regulates it as such? It's not about government regulation. Randomness has an element of chance therefore by definition IS a gamble. I wasn't making any argument for regulation. Just the fact that it is a gamble to "play the lock box game" in the same way as it is a gamble to "play the trading card game". It is still a "gamble" based on the nature of randomisation. Edited October 24, 2012 by Urael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CelCawdro Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 Yeah, until they make the Luke Skywalker; Return of the Jedi outfit and put it in a grab bag. Then your tune will change, won't it? I agree, these "get lucky boxes" are a bad idea and will lose them more business than it will gain them. Don't do it, BioWare. Having grab bags is fine. Putting exclusive items in them is not. They're a great idea, because these items are not exclusive, as you say. They become unbound and can be sold on the GTN. You can get every item there, guaranteed, without dropping a cent on the grab bags. Likewise, the credit selling business will be crippled as people can buy these items legitimately with the sole purpose of resale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walking-Carpet Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 (edited) On a personal level, perhaps. But not in a legal or corporate sense. . .I think this accounts for the difference in opinions in the last few pages of this thread. CelCawdro is discussing what gambling is in a technical legal sense, while the other posters are discussing what gambling is in a moral or common usage sense. EDIT: Just for clarification, I agree with CelCawdro that grab bags aren't legally gambling. But I also agree that they are gambling, in a moral sense. Edited October 24, 2012 by Walking-Carpet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arlon_Nabarlly Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 (edited) No, I will realize that I will then acquire the item through the GTN in this model. I'll stop getting mad over the fairness of the system and enjoy my new outfit. ^ Also remember if you're lucky enough to get a super rare item then either: a. You use/wear it and look super awesome doing it b. You sell it on the GTN to buy other super awesome things Either way the feature is super awesome. Edited October 24, 2012 by Arlon_Nabarlly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urael Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 (edited) I think this accounts for the difference in opinions in the last few pages of this thread. CelCawdro is discussing what gambling is in a technical legal sense, while the other posters are discussing what gambling is in a moral or common usage sense. And from a mathmatical and logical sense it is a gamble due to randomisation. I was not arguing from the moral or common useage sense. Edited October 24, 2012 by Urael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galbatorrix Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 (edited) Gambling..... lol. Is it also gambling if you buy 20 packs of collectible cards hoping for that one card missing from your collection? And they sell those to CHILDREN! Someone should inform Target. Edited October 24, 2012 by Galbatorrix Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GnatB Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 Alright, so in this situation your definition of gambling is paying real currency for a 'chance' at an item you want. We pay 15$ a month for a 'chance' at a particular item we want from HMs, raids, and REing items. By your standards the game itself should be a gamble. The RNG involved means we are paying 15$ but are not guaranteed the drops we desire. The loot bags have a loot table. Some items are undoubtedly going to have a lower chance of spawning than others. But the bag is no different than a player buying a Flashpoint Loot pass. In fact it is the exact same due to the above statement that our subscription could 'technically' be considered gambling due tot he RNG nature of loot drops. I guess if we are going to consider the loot bags as gambling, we need to consider every other RNG aspect of the game in the same light so long as we have to pay. You're right. If you're playing the game simply in order to loot stuff, then yes, playing the game is gambling. (I'd also argue you're probably an idiot, but then, I tend to think the whole "end game" gameplay is for suckers, as it DOES basically boil down to doing the same thing over and over and over again to... yep... get your opportunity to gamble.) Difference is, most of us are paying our $15 for the stories, quest, PvP etc. Most of us aren't "end game" raiders doing the same dungeon over and over for a chance at the item we want. And even then, I don't understand it myself, but apparently a lot of the "end game" raiders actually enjoy doing those raids over and over. Whereas with these bags, it is pretty much a straight up, (assume $1 = 100 points) something like $3 for a chance at something you want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackavaar Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 No, I will realize that I will then acquire the item through the GTN in this model. I'll stop getting mad over the fairness of the system and enjoy my new outfit. You're a moron if you think any of these items will be put on the GTN for any kind of reasonable price. The items in such boxes on STO sell on their market for upwards of 850 million credits. You got that much saved up, bub? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CelCawdro Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 I think this accounts for the difference in opinions in the last few pages of this thread. CelCawdro is discussing what gambling is in a technical legal sense, while the other posters are discussing what gambling is in a moral or common usage sense. Essentially, it is correct to use the word "gamble" as a verb in this circumstance, but not as a noun. As a verb, the word is extremely generalized. As a noun, a gamble is a much stricter concept involving risk and the potential for loss. Likewise, this isn't an issue of morality, either - I would hardly think it immoral to gamble by asking a pretty girl to a dance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norsalith Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 No it's gambling buy the mechanism in which it is implemented. Randomization implies a form of gambeling. In this case it really IS gambeling as you are trading IRL cash for these items. Incorrect, gambling requires some monetary value in return. The bags, in effect, have no equal monetary value. You cannot cash them in for x amount of real world currency. So in a legal point of view it is not gambling. No we pay $15 a month for a "service" that is an MMORPG. The IRL cash clearly goes to paying for the service not a specific "randomization" mechanism INSIDE the service. In the case of lock boxes you are paying IRL cash for the Lock box. The rest of my reasoning is above in my responce to CelCawdro. We pay $15 to play the game. We 'rent' our characters and the server space. We 'rent' that space to improve our characters and enjoy the game. However this 'service' includes the 'chance' to obtain items. In other words gambling is, by your view point, a service we pay for while playing the game. Just because it is not as clear cut as buying the lock boxes, which does guarantee some item(s) of value equaling or surpassing the value of what you payed, does not mean it does not fall into your definition. Then again, I have to wonder at my sanity as I am trying to debate with someone who uses 'smilies' in their arguments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arlon_Nabarlly Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 You're a moron if you think any of these items will be put on the GTN for any kind of reasonable price. The items in such boxes on STO sell on their market for upwards of 850 million credits. You got that much saved up, bub? 850 million credits? Who are you Dr. Evil? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walking-Carpet Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 (edited) And from a mathmatical and logical sense it is a gamble due to randomisation. I was not arguing from the moral or common useage sense. OK, but it's still not gambling in a legal sense, which I believe is what CelCawdro was focusing on. EDIT: or maybe not. Essentially, it is correct to use the word "gamble" as a verb in this circumstance, but not as a noun. As a verb, the word is extremely generalized. As a noun, a gamble is a much stricter concept involving risk and the potential for loss. Likewise, this isn't an issue of morality, either - I would hardly think it immoral to gamble by asking a pretty girl to a dance. Now I'm confused. But I still think you guys should define your terms with specificity before you argue about them. Edited October 24, 2012 by Walking-Carpet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackavaar Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 850 million credits? Who are you Dr. Evil? Log in to STO and see for yourself. The greed is awe inspiring... and not in a good way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arlon_Nabarlly Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 Essentially, it is correct to use the word "gamble" as a verb in this circumstance, but not as a noun. As a verb, the word is extremely generalized. As a noun, a gamble is a much stricter concept involving risk and the potential for loss. Wow I think I feel asleep twice reading this sentence I would hardly think it immoral to gamble by asking a pretty girl to a dance. I would but I guess that's why I play video games on Friday night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CelCawdro Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 OK, but it's still not gambling in a legal sense, which I believe is what CelCawdro was focusing on. There is gambling "the Verb" and gambling "the specific activity." A case can be made for the former, but not the latter. I could take a risk by going to the grocery store and hoping they have fresh bread available. That's gambling, but only in the literary sense of the term. And that has never been the issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galbatorrix Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 The first few people to find the mask of Darth Nihilus will be rolling in credits, haha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walking-Carpet Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 There is gambling "the Verb" and gambling "the specific activity." A case can be made for the former, but not the latter. I could take a risk by going to the grocery store and hoping they have fresh bread available. That's gambling, but only in the literary sense of the term. And that has never been the issue.Cel-- I edited my post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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