Did I hear this right?

[Quething]

Why would any gay storylines introduced be horrid? I thought Bioware did a fantastic job with ME3. Cortez had an emotionally investing storyline and Traynor's was great to experience.

 

I don't know if I'd go that far, Sam's romance is only slightly better than poor Kelly's in ME2. Even knowing straight from the horse's mouth how much work and dedication the writer put into making it compelling and honest, I still always go "oh, this was a total afterthought somebody threw together on their lunch break" when I play it and have to remind myself otherwise.

 

Of course, the Jacob romance is one hell of an epic clunker too, in much worse ways, and that's just in ME2 - let's not even talk about what they did to it in 3. Bad writing happens. It's not exclusive to queer romances, it's not exclusive to straight romances, it's not exclusive to any kind of storyline at all. It's an inevitable fact of life when you deal in complex stories. And when you're BioWare, and you've got Liara, Kaidan and the entire cast of DA2 on your resume, you can generally feel pretty confident claiming it's not tied to the s/s nature of the participating characters.

[HellbirdIV]

Of course, the Jacob romance is one hell of an epic clunker too

 

I blame the fact that Jacob is about as interesting as a piece of wet cardboard. I don't think you could write an interesting romance storyarc with him in it, no matter how hard you tried.

[xorv]

On the scale from 1 to 10 for priority. This is like 40 in importance.

 

Can not believe they are wasting time on developing this.

This is the same company that squandered time and money on patch 1.4.

[Vongolasky]

Quick question. Honestly, how much of the population really, really wants this? I'm not talking about people who don't really care, I'm talking about those that want nothing else but this. Because, by the posts I've seen, there has only been a hand full of people even talking about it. I'm not speaking against Homosexuality. I wouldn't dare. Its stupid to speak against these days unless you like being hated, called names, and spit on.

[Chaac]

Quick question. Honestly, how much of the population really, really wants this? I'm not talking about people who don't really care, I'm talking about those that want nothing else but this. Because, by the posts I've seen, there has only been a hand full of people even talking about it. I'm not speaking against Homosexuality. I wouldn't dare. Its stupid to speak against these days unless you like being hated, called names, and spit on.

 

Well if you go by the pre launch polls there was always a couple of thousand responses in favour of adding this content so back then at least it was more than a handful. There are also some people who have stopped playing for the time being but will return once SGRA's are in which means currently they can't post on these forums. In total I've seen far more people post in favour of adding SGRA's than I have post against it.

[Kioma]

Quick question. Honestly, how much of the population really, really wants this? I'm not talking about people who don't really care, I'm talking about those that want nothing else but this. Because, by the posts I've seen, there has only been a hand full of people even talking about it. I'm not speaking against Homosexuality. I wouldn't dare. Its stupid to speak against these days unless you like being hated, called names, and spit on.

 

Well, it's perhaps a fair question, but nobody really has the answer. In any case it's not relevant because the most vitally important people - the developers - have already decided to include it. They've stated as much and until they state differently nobody can really 'know' they aren't putting it in.

 

If the handful of people who want it are developers it's going to be realised.

[odericko]

After reading 5 pages of this thread, I'm just glad Bioware is developing SGR content. No need to debate it to death, really. All signs point to it's coming, just as it was in the recent Bioware games. People that wanted OPs/WZs got there content. Now it's time for some story content to be put in (SGR and Makeb).

[Chaac]

I'm gonna post this here since some people might not be up to speed on what has and hasn't been said in the past - Thanks to Ulain for some of the information. I'd also just like to remind people that the point of this thread wasn't debating whether or not SGRA's should go into the game but about seeking clarification from a statement that suggested they would be here with Makeb.

 

A Time Line Of Events Pertaining To SGRA's

 

 

February 2000 – EA releases the Sims featuring same-gendered romance.

 

 

July 2003 – Bioware releases Knights of the old Republic which was initially slated to feature a same-gender romance with the companion Juhani. Although much of the Juhani arc was removed it remained possible to enter a romance with the character and to learn part of her personal history and the relationship she had with another Jedi who will later fall to the Darkside should Juhani be killed by the player character.

 

 

August 2008 – Karen Traviss confirms two Mandalorian characters to be a married homosexual couple. Link.

 

 

“Goran Beviin and Medrit Vasur are a gay couple. Homosexual men. Call it what you like, they're in a same-sex marriage.“

 

She further elaborates;

 

“The gay Mandos - like the rest of the Mandalorian cast - are in the series because I think the Star Wars galaxy, with millions of worlds and species, is probably more diverse than just a regular vanilla diet of straight, good-looking, able-bodied white folk with red hair and emerald eyes or whatever. So I decided it was time SW had its first gay characters, because it was dumb for such a rich universe like that to be so narrow and unreal.“

 

October 2008 – George Lucas donates $50,000 to No on 8 ( a campaign in support of gay marriage). Lucasfilm donates the same amount of money to the same campaign. Link.

 

 

April 2009 – Bioware Community Manager Sean Dahlberg censors the use of homosexual labels and states that the terms “do not exist in Star Wars”. The statement is later retracted and the terms are uncensored. Link.

 

 

August 2011 – Bioware's Cory Butler responds to the question of SGRA's being in/out with a hurried no and a quick change of topic. Link.

 

 

September 2011 – Bioware Community Manager Stephen Reid announces that SGRA's will be a post launch feature:

 

“Quote: Originally Posted by*StephenReid

Due to the design constraints of a fully voiced MMO of this scale and size, many choices had to be made as to the launch and post-launch feature set. Same gender romances with companion characters in Star Wars: The Old Republic will be a post-launch feature. Because The Old Republic is an MMO, the game will live on through content expansions which allow us to include content and features that could not be included at launch, including the addition of more companion characters who will have additional romance options.”

 

This is shortly followed with two posts from Reid explaining why it was decided that SW:TOR should allow same sex romances -

 

“First of all, this is definitely not an audience that consists of a 'couple of people' and we're aware of that. We take this decision very seriously.

 

Second, it's very important to realize that this is just one of many, many content additions that will be going into the game post launch. The vast majority of our content will be of interest to the vast majority of our potential audience.

 

However, one of the amazing things about MMOs is that over time we can get to add things that are exciting and interesting to smaller audiences. Normally, that's not something that's addressed too far ahead of time. In this case, we felt the addition was warranted and should be addressed early.

 

There will be plenty of content for all to play and enjoy.”

 

And -

 

“We can't guarantee that a character you play at launch would have romance options 'unlocked' for an existing companion. It's something that will be taken into consideration when making design decisions. Not a promise it'll happen, but we'll take that feedback and relay it through to design.

 

We fully intend to do justice to the story in our storylines.*

 

As you may have heard, we take story very seriously - this included.

 

Lastly for those of you who seem concerned that you will be 'tricked' into any romance arc in the game - all romance choices are clearly marked. You will be aware you're making those choices as you make them.“

 

 

January 2012 – Activists target SW:TOR's decision to include Same-Gendered Romance. Link.

 

 

March 2012 – Daniel Erickson elaborates on the inclusion of Same Sex Romances. (The specific mention of SGRA's begins at the twenty one minute mark.)

 

 

“Q: Any update on same gender romance?

Daniel Erickson: It is coming and it is coming with story updates. It is something that depends on the writers and we want to do right, and writers have a long lead time. We did not want to just change all the dialogue for the other gender. That is not writing, that is not story telling. This was cut originally because of budget and time issues. We have designs, we know what romance options we want to put in for this. It is coming when full story comes, and full story is coming this year. We are still on track. “

 

 

August 2012 – Gabe Amatangelo Lead PvP Designer announces that he belives Same-Gendered Romance to be coming with Makeb. Link.

 

 

“Um, the same-sex relationship stuff, there is – I think it is in Makeb? In the new update, I think there is some stuff in there. But I don't know exactly. I'm not, not a writer. That's sort of the aspect that I am farthest from. But it really comes down to just getting it on the schedule and getting that content into the game”

 

 

August 2012 – In response to an email from a former regular poster the ESRB confirms that same sex romances do not affect the rating that a game receives.

 

“Thank you for contacting the Entertainment Software Rating Board (ESRB). We sincerely appreciate your taking the time to write.

 

The ESRB is a non-profit, self-regulatory body that assigns age and content ratings for video games and mobile apps so parents can make informed choices as to which are suitable for their children and family. As part of its self-regulatory role for the video game industry, the ESRB also enforces industry-adopted advertising guidelines and helps ensure responsible online privacy practices among companies participating in its Privacy Online program.

 

We understand that sexual themes have the potential to be of concern to consumers, which is why all such content must be disclosed during the rating process. In specific regard to your question, ESRB’s ratings criteria do not distinguish between heterosexual and same-sex content when it comes to addressing sexuality in games.

 

We hope this information is helpful, and thank you again for writing.

 

 

Best regards,

 

Entertainment Software Rating Board “

 

 

September 2012 – Hal Hood Lead Writer supports Gabe Amatangelo's announcement by posting two updates on Twitter. The first update is later deleted.

 

“(1 of 2) To all the folks who have been expressing interest in SGRs, here is the official word from Gabe Amatangelo:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Tt49...tu.be&t=10m49s…“

 

“(2 of 2) When I can share more information, I will let you know. Writing romances is one of my favorite things about working on SWTOR. :-) “

 

 

Thanks for reading!

 

 

[Glowrod]

Same gender romance.

 

If they add this, and don't give me an option to disable it, I'll probably quit the game.

[odericko]

I'm gonna post this here since some people might not be up to speed on what has and hasn't been said in the past - Thanks to Ulain for some of the information. I'd also just like to remind people that the point of this thread wasn't debating whether or not SGRA's should go into the game but about seeking clarification from a statement that suggested they would be here with Makeb.

 

A Time Line Of Events Pertaining To SGRA's

 

 

February 2000 – EA releases the Sims featuring same-gendered romance.

 

 

July 2003 – Bioware releases Knights of the old Republic which was initially slated to feature a same-gender romance with the companion Juhani. Although much of the Juhani arc was removed it remained possible to enter a romance with the character and to learn part of her personal history and the relationship she had with another Jedi who will later fall to the Darkside should Juhani be killed by the player character.

 

 

August 2008 – Karen Traviss confirms two Mandalorian characters to be a married homosexual couple. Link.

 

 

“Goran Beviin and Medrit Vasur are a gay couple. Homosexual men. Call it what you like, they're in a same-sex marriage.“

 

She further elaborates;

 

“The gay Mandos - like the rest of the Mandalorian cast - are in the series because I think the Star Wars galaxy, with millions of worlds and species, is probably more diverse than just a regular vanilla diet of straight, good-looking, able-bodied white folk with red hair and emerald eyes or whatever. So I decided it was time SW had its first gay characters, because it was dumb for such a rich universe like that to be so narrow and unreal.“

 

October 2008 – George Lucas donates $50,000 to No on 8 ( a campaign in support of gay marriage). Lucasfilm donates the same amount of money to the same campaign. Link.

 

 

April 2009 – Bioware Community Manager Sean Dahlberg censors the use of homosexual labels and states that the terms “do not exist in Star Wars”. The statement is later retracted and the terms are uncensored. Link.

 

 

August 2011 – Bioware's Cory Butler responds to the question of SGRA's being in/out with a hurried no and a quick change of topic. Link.

 

 

September 2011 – Bioware Community Manager Stephen Reid announces that SGRA's will be a post launch feature:

 

“Quote: Originally Posted by*StephenReid

Due to the design constraints of a fully voiced MMO of this scale and size, many choices had to be made as to the launch and post-launch feature set. Same gender romances with companion characters in Star Wars: The Old Republic will be a post-launch feature. Because The Old Republic is an MMO, the game will live on through content expansions which allow us to include content and features that could not be included at launch, including the addition of more companion characters who will have additional romance options.”

 

This is shortly followed with two posts from Reid explaining why it was decided that SW:TOR should allow same sex romances -

 

“First of all, this is definitely not an audience that consists of a 'couple of people' and we're aware of that. We take this decision very seriously.

 

Second, it's very important to realize that this is just one of many, many content additions that will be going into the game post launch. The vast majority of our content will be of interest to the vast majority of our potential audience.

 

However, one of the amazing things about MMOs is that over time we can get to add things that are exciting and interesting to smaller audiences. Normally, that's not something that's addressed too far ahead of time. In this case, we felt the addition was warranted and should be addressed early.

 

There will be plenty of content for all to play and enjoy.”

 

And -

 

“We can't guarantee that a character you play at launch would have romance options 'unlocked' for an existing companion. It's something that will be taken into consideration when making design decisions. Not a promise it'll happen, but we'll take that feedback and relay it through to design.

 

We fully intend to do justice to the story in our storylines.*

 

As you may have heard, we take story very seriously - this included.

 

Lastly for those of you who seem concerned that you will be 'tricked' into any romance arc in the game - all romance choices are clearly marked. You will be aware you're making those choices as you make them.“

 

 

January 2012 – Activists target SW:TOR's decision to include Same-Gendered Romance. Link.

 

 

March 2012 – Daniel Erickson elaborates on the inclusion of Same Sex Romances. (The specific mention of SGRA's begins at the twenty one minute mark.)

 

 

“Q: Any update on same gender romance?

Daniel Erickson: It is coming and it is coming with story updates. It is something that depends on the writers and we want to do right, and writers have a long lead time. We did not want to just change all the dialogue for the other gender. That is not writing, that is not story telling. This was cut originally because of budget and time issues. We have designs, we know what romance options we want to put in for this. It is coming when full story comes, and full story is coming this year. We are still on track. “

 

 

August 2012 – Gabe Amatangelo Lead PvP Designer announces that he belives Same-Gendered Romance to be coming with Makeb. Link.

 

 

“Um, the same-sex relationship stuff, there is – I think it is in Makeb? In the new update, I think there is some stuff in there. But I don't know exactly. I'm not, not a writer. That's sort of the aspect that I am farthest from. But it really comes down to just getting it on the schedule and getting that content into the game”

 

 

August 2012 – In response to an email from a former regular poster the ESRB confirms that same sex romances do not affect the rating that a game receives.

 

“Thank you for contacting the Entertainment Software Rating Board (ESRB). We sincerely appreciate your taking the time to write.

 

The ESRB is a non-profit, self-regulatory body that assigns age and content ratings for video games and mobile apps so parents can make informed choices as to which are suitable for their children and family. As part of its self-regulatory role for the video game industry, the ESRB also enforces industry-adopted advertising guidelines and helps ensure responsible online privacy practices among companies participating in its Privacy Online program.

 

We understand that sexual themes have the potential to be of concern to consumers, which is why all such content must be disclosed during the rating process. In specific regard to your question, ESRB’s ratings criteria do not distinguish between heterosexual and same-sex content when it comes to addressing sexuality in games.

 

We hope this information is helpful, and thank you again for writing.

 

 

Best regards,

 

Entertainment Software Rating Board “

 

 

September 2012 – Hal Hood Lead Writer supports Gabe Amatangelo's announcement by posting two updates on Twitter. The first update is later deleted.

 

“(1 of 2) To all the folks who have been expressing interest in SGRs, here is the official word from Gabe Amatangelo:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Tt49...tu.be&t=10m49s…“

 

“(2 of 2) When I can share more information, I will let you know. Writing romances is one of my favorite things about working on SWTOR. :-) “

 

 

Thanks for reading!

 

 

 

Sadly, I and a few others brought up that this thread isn't about whether they should be included or not. Doesn't seem to get the point across.

 

Thanks for the condensed version, though.

[Kioma]

If they add this, and don't give me an option to disable it, I'll probably quit the game.

 

Well, that's your choice. You can simply ignore it, though.

[CommunitySupport]

Everyone, we have had to remove a great number of posts from this thread and issue several infractions. Real-world political and social arguments and insults are never permitted on the forums. Any further posts in this thread that violate these rules will be infracted. The topic of this thread is to request information about a particular statement. It is fine to express your thoughts on this topic, but doing it in a way that is disrespectful to other forum members or initiates or continues debates about social issues is not appropriate.

Edited October 2, 2012 by AllisonBerryman

[ObiJuanShenobi]

Same gender romance.

 

The instant you cleared that up, is the instant I lost interest in this thread. Thanks! Of all things this game needs to be better, this is the one people get excited for...

Edited October 2, 2012 by ObiJuanShenobi

[Nidza]

Same gender romance.

 

No thanks,that would be awful and I know of many who would unsub if that would happen.

[Uluain]

Everyone, we have had to remove a great number of posts from this thread and issue several infractions. Real-world political and social arguments and insults are never permitted on the forums. Any further posts in this thread that violate these rules will be infracted. The topic of this thread is to request information about a particular statement. It is fine to express your thoughts on this topic, but doing it in a way that is disrespectful to other forum members or initiates or continues debates about social issues is not appropriate.

 

Thanks for the clean-up and also for restoring the thread.

 

No thanks,that would be awful and I know of many who would unsub if that would happen.

 

I am afraid you misunderstand what is going on with this. It was announced by BioWare well over a year ago now that same-gender companion romance – just like the possible romances currently available with opposite-gender companions – would be coming as a game feature at some point post launch. That isn't in doubt. It isn't an "if that happens", it's a "when that happens".

 

We don't know a lot about that "when", however. Last March, we were told from a developer panel at the Guild Summit that same-gender romances would be coming some time this year in connection with other story content. There has been no clear word since.

 

This is where Gabe Amatangelo's remark in the Gamescom interview becomes more important than he may have realized at the time – it is the first (and, at this time, only statement any developer has made since the March update on the status of this content. But because Gabe qualified his comment by expressing his uncertainty, I am simply asking whether those in the know would clarify whether, in fact, SGRs are coming with Makeb or not.

Edited October 2, 2012 by Uluain

[RAVM]

People putting up their youtube vids of their male character kissing male companions or NPCs is not going to help this game's reputation.

[Oyranos]

the only naughty conversations I ve experienced in the game, is with smuggler... I made sex almost with all the quest giver ladies... so easy and much.. Jedis are so cheesy in that aspect.

 

so, other than that.. even if they add same gender romance... its nothing special... except if ur smuggler and u hunt down the entire world...to do bad things.. lol I also hope they add scenes.

 

As for those who say its not a story based thing... It doesnt have to, as u dont play as luke or yoda or any actors script... it is just a unique named character in a specific class and maybe with different likes, so that is not relevant.. Its just an excuse because you dont want it...

 

So what about one more addition... a priest screaming in the republic and the empire about it Is going to be even more funny

 

Anyway... the topic title is a bit confusing.. I thought it was something..Well, other than that.. And when u type SGS, please explain, I had to read further down and then see the video to get the meaning of it.

Edited October 2, 2012 by Oyranos

[Uluain]

Anyway... the topic title is a bit confusing.. I thought it was something..Well, other than that.. And when u type SGS, please explain, I had to read further down and then see the video to get the meaning of it.

 

I wanted to chose a non-inflammatory title that was to the point – that is, to focus on the uncertainty of the statement I wish to have clarified. As it is, the thread is prone to occasional derailment anyway. If I had actually mentioned same-gender content in the title, it would have been exponentially worse.

 

As for the acronym, I apologize. Just as in game one sees abbreviations being used for ops, warzones and flashpoints in the expecatation that players will already know what they mean, I have been discussing the implementation of this content for so long that I had lost sight of the fact that SGRs (same-gender romances or same-gender relationships) was not a term familiar to most.

 

You make an interesting point about romantic content in the game right now – that it is more frequently encountered simply as conversational [Flirt] prompts with mission-related NPCs than with companion characters. The promised same-gender content, however, has only ever been mentioned by BioWare in connection with companion character stories.

 

While I have made another thread on the possibility of same-gender [Flirt] prompts, these have never been addressed one way or another by BioWare. Gabe's mention in the interview linkined in my original post refers to companion romances only. I am sorry if I was unclear on any of this. It is sometimes hard to recall what is or is not widely known.

Edited October 2, 2012 by Uluain

[Aelrail]

I do not agree with this and hopefully will never be implemented.

[losdia]

This post may end up getting blasted, but let me try to help out the mods and anyone new to this conversion by explaining where the mods are coming from with their rules on this. Over on the thread about this in Story and Lore we've had a long time to figure out where the lines are in talking about this.

 

Everyone, we have had to remove a great number of posts from this thread and issue several infractions. Real-world political and social arguments and insults are never permitted on the forums. Any further posts in this thread that violate these rules will be infracted. The topic of this thread is to request information about a particular statement. It is fine to express your thoughts on this topic, but doing it in a way that is disrespectful to other forum members or initiates or continues debates about social issues is not appropriate.

 

That means it is okay to post "do not want" type messages as long as you aren't excessively dismissive (I.E. "This is stupid, who would want it.") or crude in doing so. There is a degree to which it is okay to talk about your feelings on how adding SGR would negatively effect the game, but remember to keep your tone civil or your post will get deleted. Try to keep everything friendly and you should be fine. Just remember there are people who do care about this and some of them are devs.

 

What is not okay to do is compare SGR to any other RL issues such as race, religion, or RL politics of sexuality. This is basically seen as trolling by the mods. Even if it is just a rhetorical point, it is not something the mods view as acceptable. There are too many strong feeling about RL politics on sexuality, and the mods do not want them brought into this conversation. Doing so is what will get you infractions. Also, treating SGR as something kinky is likely to get you in trouble. There has been no comment that SGR will be any more explicit than the current romances and that argument carries unfortunate implications that can bring RL politics into this. This isn't just something that applies to people posting negative comments either. Pro-SGR comments are not acceptable if they talk about views on sexuality in RL politics. This is not the place for that sort of debate.

 

So, does anyone think we're ever going to get anything official from BW announcing content that is, apparently, coming in patch 1.5, or are we going to have to wait for the patch notes?

Edited October 2, 2012 by losdia

[utio]

I do not agree with this and hopefully will never be implemented.

 

The bad news for you is that it will be implemented, but the good news for you is you don't have to get involved with it.

[Uluain]

So, does anyone think we're ever going to get anything official from BW announcing content that is, apparently, coming in patch 1.5, or are we going to have to wait for the patch notes?

 

I think that this thread is being permitted to run here because the Community Team is hopeful of having a response approved at some point. As we have discussed elsewhere, there seems to be a gap between what information the devs have and what they are permitted to say.

 

Gabe Amatangelo's remark may represent something that slipped through that gap (e.g. if no one had actually told him he was not permitted to discuss it, because he is the PvP guy and not directly involved). If that is the case, actually clearing a solid reply may be a different kettle of fish. We don't know how that works. Yes, I have asked.

 

To address the broader question, I do think that we will see this announced in the lead-up to release. That seems to have been the gist of several statements made along the way.

Edited October 2, 2012 by Uluain

[Foobert]

I've been looking forward to SGRs for a while now, if not only because it would reduce the amount of male alts I have to roll n order to romance the female comps.

[Tatile]

I do not agree with this and hopefully will never be implemented.

 

I do not agree with the voice acting of the Jedi, but sadly it's still in the game.

[losdia]

I hope this isn't done the same way mass effect 3 did SGR. I was upset when that loser Steve kept feeling "worried" about me, disgusted when Kaiden asked me out to dinner and then proposed, and disturbed when i noticed Garrus in my shower.

 

I don't want to be talking to Khem Val when all of the sudden (Because I'm his bud), he tells me that he loves me and wants to share a night in my cabin. I will close the game and never play again.

 

This is actually a somewhat reasonable concern. Except that in TOR romance stories can only be started by you choosing to flirt back with your companions. All you will have to do to avoid unwanted SGR stories is just not flirt with people. Clicking a flirt prompt is the same as activating a "yes, please" flag for starting that character's romance. Having said that I doubt we will see more than 1 SGR enabled companions per class, so I doubt you'll have to worry about love triangles. The most you could have would be more like ME1. Also TOR is no where near as explicit as ME. It should all be pretty mild.

Edited October 2, 2012 by losdia