Dark Council Strength Order

[jovianus]

Well, I can believe it if we pretend that there wasn't a fight at all, agent was just running for his life and activating stuff.

 

The problem with the statement that it was made not by force sensistive individual. It really looks like employees discussing how big and bad their boss is.

 

Well, it's part of the nature of the game. How many members of the Dark Council do you slaughter on Corellia as a Republic player?

 

Either the standards of the Dark Council are actually incredibly low, or we just have to accept that for game purposes presumably tremendously powerful Force users routinely get their kneecaps smashed with the lead pipe of Plot.

Edited December 25, 2014 by jovianus

[dcaleb]

And yet he did As always with the EU, phenomenal cosmic power tends to fail at the most inconvenient moments. We are never given anything that directly contradicts the assessment of him being the second in power only to the Emperor.

 

Besides the fact that he can't one shot a force blind grunt while guys like Thanaton were able to kill Sith Lord's who could defend against force attacks with a wave of his hand (Inquisitor only survived because of ghost bindings previously unmentioned side effect of allowing you to survive injuries that should be fatal).

 

Well, it's part of the nature of the game. How many members of the Dark Council do you slaughter on Corellia as a Republic player?

 

Either the standards of the Dark Council are actually incredibly low, or we just have to accept that for game purposes presumably tremendously powerful Force users routinely get their kneecaps smashed with the lead pipe of Plot.

 

I always just assume that they got taken out by the Hero of Tython or the Barsenthor instead of the two force blind classes (or maybe got dog piled). Also, these are end game player characters while Jadus is fought less then halfway through the game.

[LordCJK]

Well, it's part of the nature of the game. How many members of the Dark Council do you slaughter on Corellia as a Republic player?

I suppose it's the same case as with the ops. Strike teams are canonical. But there are needed to take on armies guarding bosses, while it's pretty obvious that force users in general solo/2-man some of the bosses.

So on Corellia every republic class has contributed to the fall of imperial army. But in diffrenet ways. The ones who fought DC members ar obviously force sensitive.

Either the standards of the Dark Council are actually incredibly low

Thanaton was considered one of the weakest among the Dark Council, yet you remember his feats. Nah.

or we just have to accept that for game purposes presumably tremendously powerful Force users routinely get their kneecaps smashed with the lead pipe of Plot.

But we are here to discuss lore, not game mechanics. So we can find a plausible explanation for the mess.

[jovianus]

Besides the fact that he can't one shot a force blind grunt while guys like Thanaton were able to kill Sith Lord's who could defend against force attacks with a wave of his hand (Inquisitor only survived because of ghost bindings previously unmentioned side effect of allowing you to survive injuries that should be fatal).

 

Can't have it both ways bubby. Without explicit contradiction, all class stories are assumed to be legitimate as written/played out/stated. Can't just pick and choose which ones count and which don't because of personal preference.

 

And I'd note the Agents entire Chapter 2 revolves around the things Keeper had to do to keep him alive because the Dark Council was very much not happy about the fact that a "force blind grunt" had brought down one of their most powerful members.

 

I always just assume that they got taken out by the Hero of Tython or the Barsenthor instead of the two force blind classes (or maybe got dog piled). Also, these are end game player characters while Jadus is fought less then halfway through the game.

 

Assume away, doesn't change the fact that half the Dark Council got roflstomped on Corellia, in spite of theoretically representing some of the most powerful living Dark Side Force users in the galaxy.

 

But we are here to discuss lore, not game mechanics. So we can find a plausible explanation for the mess.

 

Well, the lore explicitly states that Jadus is second only to the Emperor. What people are doing is trying to find 'plausible explanations' for why it shouldn't count because they don't like the idea that those dirty "normals" can threaten the EU version of Force Users as Invincible Space Wizards.

 

*cough*Order 66*cough*

Edited December 25, 2014 by jovianus

[LordCJK]

And I'd note the Agents entire Chapter 2 revolves around the things Keeper had to do to keep him alive because the Dark Council was very much not happy about the fact that a "force blind grunt" had brought down one of their most powerful members.

Well, that's an argument, but can you prove the words ''one of their most powerful members''?

Again, as you have said, can't have it both ways. If you think Jadus top-1, then there weren't a fight. More a trickery and running.

If you think there was an actual fight, like gameplay one, then Jadus isn't. Simple as that.

[LordCJK]

*cough*Order 66*cough*

So? Whole squads of clone troppers against single Jedis?

Well, the lore explicitly states that Jadus is second only to the Emperor.

If you show me the codex or reliable source, then let it be. But I remember only one of imperial intelligence saying it, which isn't reliable source, yeah. People who know nothing about force powers can't judge it, especially the ones of ''second to the Emperor''.

 

I don't get your statements. We're talking about EU, so blaming EU writers doesn't relate to the topic.

[jovianus]

Well, that's an argument, but can you prove the words ''one of their most powerful members''?

Again, as you have said, can't have it both ways. If you think Jadus top-1, then there weren't a fight. More a trickery and running.

If you think there was an actual fight, like gameplay one, then Jadus isn't. Simple as that.

 

There was, at best, a desperately lucky effort to temporarily contain him. You cannot, after all, actually kill him.

 

And Watcher Two seems to imply that the entire Dark Council is coming to take Jadus into custody,"The Dark Council will take care of Jadus, they're coming aboard as soon as we're secure", seems a bit overkill for a supposed weak and minor member of the Council.

 

So? Whole squads of clone troppers against single Jedis?

 

Whole squads of like..3 or 4 guys? We see it directly on screen buddy, we're not talking about hundreds of troops massing fire on the Jedi until they're totally overwhelmed, we're talking about Jedi Council Masters getting gunned down by a handful of troopers.

 

I don't get your statements. We're talking about EU, so blaming EU writers doesn't relate to the topic.

 

I'm not blaming the EU writers per se, I'm talking about the fanboyism they create.

 

Movie Jedi, and Sith, are perfectly fallible and vulnerable, and can be brought down by a well executed attack by normal people. But no All Mighty Wielder of the Force from the EU could ever be brought down by an ordinary peasant. Hence all this desperately looking for ways to downplay Jadus and any other situation where a normal could have done it.

 

"I just assume the Hero of Tython or the Barsen'thor killed all the Council members on Corellia."

 

"I just assume, based on nothing at all, that the explicitly stated affect Jadus' mere presence has on people is some random quirk that he has no control over, because he can't be strong and still be threatened by a 'force blind grunt' under any circumstances." etc.

[LordCJK]

There was, at best, a desperately lucky effort to temporarily contain him.

I'm fine with that as long as doesn't include actual fightning.

And Watcher Two seems to imply that the entire Dark Council is coming to take Jadus into custody,"The Dark Council will take care of Jadus, they're coming aboard as soon as we're secure", seems a bit overkill for a supposed weak and minor member of the Council.

Never said he was weak.

But second in the Empire after the Emperor? I doubt.

Whole squads of like..3 or 4 guys?

More like 2. Oh, wait

and can be brought down by a well executed attack by normal people

Depends what kind of Jedi. And what kind of normal. In the movies only Jango Fett( a mandalorian with the suit ) was able to keep up with strong Jedi.

And Imperial Agent has no suit, he can't fly etc.

I'm talking about 1v1 fights, of course.

"I just assume the Hero of Tython or the Barsen'thor killed all the Council members on Corellia."

 

"I just assume, based on nothing at all, that the explicitly stated affect Jadus' mere presence has on people is some random quirk that he has no control over, because he can't be strong and still be threatened by a 'force blind grunt' under any circumstances." etc.

The second assumption is really ridiculous, but what's wrong with the first one? Or you think the time and space has split into 4 pieces so every rep class could get a kill?

[jovianus]

More like 2. Oh, wait

 

Yup? It's a shame that awesome Jedi precognition failed so spectacularly, all across the galaxy, at the same time. Except for Yoda.

 

Depends what kind of Jedi. And what kind of normal. In the movies only Jango Fett( a mandalorian with the suit ) was able to keep up with strong Jedi.

And Imperial Agent has no suit, he can't fly etc.

I'm talking about 1v1 fights, of course.

 

Yeah, look at all the insane acrobatics and flying Jango has to do to take down Jedi Council Master Trebor: Oh wait, he just stands there and shoots at him with a pistol until he dies.

 

The second assumption is really ridiculous, but what's wrong with the first one? Or you think the time and space has split into 4 pieces so every rep class could get a kill?

 

And yet Bioware made the decision to make all these insanely powerful Dark Council members part of the planet quests available to every class, not part of either of the JC or JK's storylines. So again, it's just baseless assumption based on Force fanboying that ordinary peasants can never ever be capable of threatening Force users.

[fdbgjfdhjgkjdhsg]

According to the lore, Jadus should be the most powerful. People actually start feeling horrible only in his presence. Something only the emperor could do.

 

Really? Jadus seemed to be kind of a wuss when my sniper beat him up:rolleyes:.

[jovianus]

Really? Jadus seemed to be kind of a wuss when my sniper beat him up:rolleyes:.

 

So were all of the members of the Dark Council on Corellia when my Trooper stomped their faces in.

 

Can't just pick and choose whether game mechanics or lore take precedence depending on personal agenda. Either Jadus is actually as powerful as lore says, and the IA just beats him by lucky act of plot, or all Force users, up to and including the Emperor himself, really aren't that special, and can get their worlds handily rocked by any number of 'force blind grunts'.

[fdbgjfdhjgkjdhsg]

So were all of the members of the Dark Council on Corellia when my Trooper stomped their faces in.

 

Can't just pick and choose whether game mechanics or lore take precedence depending on personal agenda. Either Jadus is actually as powerful as lore says, and the IA just beats him by lucky act of plot, or all Force users, up to and including the Emperor himself, really aren't that special, and can get their worlds handily rocked by any number of 'force blind grunts'.

 

Not really going by canon here but my trooper is the one who killed the emperor when my friend and I were grouped together and I was helping him complete his final class quest with is JK. We reached the part where we had to fight the emperor and my friend was killed by him. Needless to say my commando killed the all powerful ruler of the sith empire with a few rockets and an assult cannon's barrel to the face.

[dcaleb]

Some guy said it=/=being true, lots of people say things in this game that turn out to be wrong (often to the tune of "you are about to die, Player Character" or 'Don't be crazy Player Character, nobody can pull that off "). What backed up Watcher Two's statement or indicated he had any credibility on matters regarding the force? Nothing, nothing backed it up. Jadus can canonically get his teeth kicked in by a force blind grunt not even halfway through their class story while other Dark Council members are either faced as the penultimate boss of a class story or as optional/end game story bosses not available until the PC is at least within spitting distance of the original level cap and the nominal peak of their abilities.

 

Seriously, there is just no way to take him seriously when he goes out like a punk so early in the game. He should have either been fought much later on or not be someone you can fight at all, the agent should have been restricted to joining him or talking him out of his plan.

[Darkelefantos]

Oh please. Nomen Karr, a powerful member of the Jedi Order and supposed equal to Baras, defeated by a mere Apprentice. Kellian Jarro, a legendary Jedi aswell as renowned Mandalorian Killer, defeated by a mere Bounty Hunter. Jaric Kaedan, member of the Jedi Council and captor of the Dread Masters, defeated in single combat by someone who wouldn't stand a chance against the Masters by themselves. The Emperor, most powerful being in the galaxy, defeated by a lone Jedi and his droid.

 

Conversely, Revan, whom was made short work of by the Emperor, was engaged in combat by a group of no less than 7, including the Grand Master of the Jedi Order and the de-facto leader of the Dark Council.

[dcaleb]

Oh please. Nomen Karr, a powerful member of the Jedi Order and supposed equal to Baras, defeated by a mere Apprentice. Kellian Jarro, a legendary Jedi aswell as renowned Mandalorian Killer, defeated by a mere Bounty Hunter. Jaric Kaedan, member of the Jedi Council and captor of the Dread Masters, defeated in single combat by someone who wouldn't stand a chance against the Masters by themselves. The Emperor, most powerful being in the galaxy, defeated by a lone Jedi and his droid.

 

Conversely, Revan, whom was made short work of by the Emperor, was engaged in combat by a group of no less than 7, including the Grand Master of the Jedi Order and the de-facto leader of the Dark Council.

 

I don't recall anything ever saying he was Baras's equal in a straight up fight (and he may or may not have ganked Darth Ekkage instead of fighting her head on), that is not really that impressive (and contrary to what some people seem to believe he didn't take them all on at the same time, it was spread out over the sacking of Coruscant), and I'm pretty sure Kaedan didn't do it by himself and he happened to have a technique that totally shut down the fear power the Dread Masters had grown to rely on.

[LordCJK]

Yup? It's a shame that awesome Jedi precognition failed so spectacularly, all across the galaxy, at the same time. Except for Yoda.

Well, Jedi can't read thoughts after all. And Sidious have blinded them with dark side powers( not totally blinded, but more clouded their prophetic abilities in the force ).

Yeah, look at all the insane acrobatics and flying Jango has to do to take down Jedi Council Master Trebor: Oh wait, he just stands there and shoots at him with a pistol until he dies

Jango is good

And yet Bioware made the decision to make all these insanely powerful Dark Council members part of the planet quests available to every class, not part of either of the JC or JK's storylines. So again, it's just baseless assumption based on Force fanboying that ordinary peasants can never ever be capable of threatening Force users.

Then make your assumptions. How do you explain it then? Smuggler got a kill and noone else did? More biased than ours

[Rhyltran]

Well, Jedi can't read thoughts after all. And Sidious have blinded them with dark side powers( not totally blinded, but more clouded their prophetic abilities in the force ).

 

Jango is good

 

Then make your assumptions. How do you explain it then? Smuggler got a kill and noone else did? More biased than ours

 

To be fair Trebor was also a diplomat. Not really a fighter.

[dcaleb]

Yeah, look at all the insane acrobatics and flying Jango has to do to take down Jedi Council Master Trebor: Oh wait, he just stands there and shoots at him with a pistol until he dies

 

Wait, that chump who couldn't even deflect a couple of blaster shots from a single blaster was not only a jedi master but also a member of the council? I mean, I know that jedi are more interested in wisdom and such then combat prowess when assigning that rank but come on. How did he even survive long enough to reach that rank if he couldn't even deflect blaster bolts? Surely somebody had shot at him at some point in his career if he was an active jedi.

 

I mean, seriously, I always secretly assumed he was one of those drop outs who was never even allowed to become a padawan and Mace was so desperate for warm bodies he shoved a lightsaber in his hand and said 'you are coming to Genosis with us'.

 

 

Edit: And looking him up on Wookiepedia, he apparently focused on Soresu when he learned lightsaber combat. So yeah, the words 'epic fail' don't even begin to describe a guy who supposedly focused on the most defense oriented form of lightsaber usage that was created specifically to counter blasters being unable to handle a few shots from a blaster pistol.

Edited December 28, 2014 by dcaleb

[Kaedusz]

snip

 

Apparently you don't know what you are talking about.The Jedi in the movies are those during their Golden Age and they were the most powerful in the Star Wars universe.If Master Trebor, a jedi master and member of the council ,wasn't able to survive those blaster bolts then nobody especially from the Old Republic would.

(isn't that right color team? )

Edited December 29, 2014 by Kaedusz

[dcaleb]

The very same movie established that you start learning to deflect such things before you even become a padawan and the very first thing Obi-wan tries to teach Luke during his short time as his teacher was how to do it. The guy was demonstrably an incompetent loser by the standards of his time and I refuse to believe he was anything but one of those washouts who never got to be a real jedi despite being force sensitive. Obviously he was assigned to the jedi temple as a janitor and stole some real jedi's clothing and lightsaber while they were in the shower and Mace dragged him into the assault starships before he could explain he wasn't really a jedi.

[ShenLongKazama]

Obviously the most powerful council member is my Sith Assassin after she gets her council chair

 

No.

 

[Leaveshill]

Darth Nox is proably at the bottem of the totem pole right now. he basicly had to "cheat" to defeat his rival after all. and IIRC that cheat has since left him.

His power base is also, directly speaking, a bit behind the others. reading between the lines Nox's power base is basicly just the Imperial Reclaimation corps.

 

Actually, Nox doesn't let his ghosts leave. He keeps on harvesting it's power, and the personal power one gets from those ghosts are rather horrific. Just look at how Thanaton got to crawl around on the floor. Nox would likely beat any Council member, beside of the master himself (Jadus) maybe. No one has ever been recorded with having more than one ghost and suriving. Also, what's "cheat"? Using rituals?

You know every force-users, especially the dark-side users are using rituals? The brutes don't use them, but the brutes are rarely capable of fighting the strongest ritualists either. Nihilius, Sidious, etc. Rituals are legit, and using ghosts are very risky and not a way of cheating. Only the strongest can master froce-walking.

 

Also; Nox has a cult, he has multiple moffs under him(serving him directly), he has a Dashade, which is more powerful than most force-users in the galaxy. Also, he has taken a lot of Thanatons powerbase. Also, controlling the ancient secrets of the Empire, Nox has access to and means to find powerful artifacts of power that he can use to improve his power further.

 

But of course, Nox doesn't have the strongest powerbase yet. But after defeating Thanaton, he gained a lot of Thanaton's former servants himself. The less zealous ones, at least.

And again. Khem Val would likely devour some of the dark council members himself. As Hurak-Mul said "In my day, possessing such a prize could be enough to rule the sith." - Khem Val is, lorewise, almost as powerful as a dark council member and he gets stronger every time he devours. And remember that nobody knows about the Force-walk, so people will not be capable of understanding where his power comes from. And they will not know that well, to kill him you need to ruin the corpse completely(will likely work) or purge the ghosts (which is probably unknown to everyone).

 

*also, people seem to forget that Nox has a "good" relationship with Marr. Marr did after all get Nox into the Council. He didn't just "earn his way by killing Thanaton", he simply proved more worthy and Marr saw a potential ally. He had probably considered it even during Thanatons's speech. It's natural to assume that Nox will support someone in the council (someone with a stronger powerbase, which will in return offer something back to Nox,-increased power to both), and that Nox would be loyal to Marr. I see people writing "allied to" blabla, but Nox is allied with the head of the council so who's allied to Ravage isn't really important.

Edited January 2, 2015 by Leaveshill

[wrathofabeloth]

Top

Darth Nox (Empowered by Ghosts) - easily defeated Thanaton

Darth Jadus - was considered second to the emperor

Darth Marr - was stated to be second to none within the empire

Darth Baras - gave the Emperor's Wrath a good fight before losing

 

Above Average

Darth Mortis ~ Darth Ravage - implied to be capable of taking out thanaton

Darth Thanaton - shown an impresive display of force abilitys and easily subduing a less experienced Sith Inquisitor

Darth Vengean ~ Darth Decimus ~ Darth Arho - seem to be among the most threatening war leaders in the empire

 

Average

Darth Ekkage - can easily kill lesser sith lords but has been locked away and never progressed like Baras did.

Darth Mekhis - held her own against Satele around the time of the Hope Trailer (Tie in Comics)

Darth Acharon & Darth Hadra - seem like respectfully powerfull invididuals but not great by dark council standards, were clearly overshadowed by Decimus' presence

Darth Karrid - not sure if she is as powerfull as Hadra but seemed like a worthy sucsessor, being outclassed by Master Gnost-Dural is nothing to be ashamed of

Darth Acina? - an unknown but i'll assume she earned her spot fair and square

 

Below Average

Darth Vowrawn - i like the guy but he seemed like a non-fighter when compared to his peers, being swatted away by Draahg backs this up

Darth Zhorrid - never earned her spot on the council for strength but due to knowledge of Jadus resources. And was looked down upon by the other memebers.

[Ershiin]

Discounting someone like Jadus simply for being outsmarted/"beaten" by the agent is ignoring a fact thats kinda being pummeled at us repeatedly.

That even the most powerful of Jedi and Sith are still "only human" (blablawhataboutalienzblablatrololol).. As such they're all subject to the same flaws and rules as anyone else. They only SEEM like they're "above" them to people who lack the proper knowledge of how they're "bending" the rules.

Its the reason why despite being a chosen ultimate powerful force user who could 1v1 Vader, Luke still got knocked out by something as silly as a wampa and could very easily have been eaten then and there...

Its the reason why despite being Force Jesus, Anakin was still a whiny easily manipulated fool who couldnt keep it in his pants despite knowing full well what a bad idea it was.

Its also the reason why that whenever two powerful force users duke it out, even if they're both almost purely the magey consular types, they generally always end up deciding their battles with a lightsaber in the end.

[DarkknightSithlo]

the Dark Council is the 12 greatest and powerful sith lords of the Empire , i dont believe that any non force user can actualy beat one of them. However is possible that a non force user could kill a simple lord or acolyte , i think we need to have that in mind. We are speaking of the Dark Council not any sith. I mean Jadus could do with the agent the same thing he did with Kaliyo, i dont think there was a fight there.