A Tale of Two Games: ToR and WoW - Review!

[Akaen]

It was the best of times, it was the worst of times. For ToR, unfortunately, mostly the worst. This isn't my first review - I reviewed the game during the beta several times, but I was shunned by incredulous and overzealous fans. After all, it was "just" a beta. Well here we are, at the dawn of release - no longer in the beta. So where does this game stand in the grand scheme of things? How does it compare to WoW, SWG, Rift, GW2? Lets find out.

 

Who am I? I'm some dude that led a top-US CS:S team for many years, was a part of two top-10 WoW guilds, and played in several WoW Arena Tournies (including the CGS invitational) and many many CS tournaments, including the CPL. I also had a stint working for an indie game developer several years ago. I like to think that I know what I'm talking about, and usually, I do.

 

Story

Story. Story. Story. We've heard it over and over again. Bioware has really hammered this home - much how Vincent Chase is Queens Boulevard, The Old Republic is story. And story is one of the few battles ToR wins. The voice over quality is top notch and primary class quests are mostly interesting and engaging. Some may be deterred by the incessant use of family drama as a plot device since it gets old pretty fast. With that said, don't expect Chaucer, but the writing is sufficient.

 

Unfortunately, the side quests are problematic and suffer from trivial subject matters ("blah blah click some turrets") or endless fetch questing (go to X, come back to Y, go to X again, now back to Y). This wouldn't have been a problem 10 years ago, but 2012 is almost here. WoW has moved us past the trivialities of fetch questing and now we do cool stuff like lassoing dragons, bombing runs or mind-controlling giants. ToR pretends like there hasn't been an entire generation of MMORPGs since KOTOR and suffers for it greatly. Bonus quests are an interesting touch, but more often than not, they insult the player. Here you are doing the most trivial of tasks (ex: clicking control panels - a Bioware favorite) and a bonus quest pops up that asks you to kill 30 of the same type of mob. And just like that, we're all sent back to the late 90s. Bioware has a lot to learn from Jeff Kaplan.

 

On many levels, however, the VO is a technical achievement. Ordinarily, I'd have no problem with pouring so much money into something like voice over, but the gameplay significantly suffered from it. To me, that's unforgivable.

 

Combat

The crux of a good MMORPG is solid combat. I expect combat to be fluid, responsive, and logical. ToR has a pretty good grasp of what it wants to do, but doesn't quite reach the bar set by better MMOs. First of all, the "heroic" combat Bioware preached for years and years isn't as heroic as they made it out to be. Animations are often choppy and blocking animations seem to happen at random times (as opposed to having weapons make contact). But lets face it, it's not a big deal. What is a big deal, however, is the lack of an auto-attack.

 

This quizzical gameplay choice hurts more than it helps. It means that the gamer needs to manually press 1-1-1-1-1 (or right-click like a madman) to use the regular "white attack" ability and to generate resources that one may use (in the case of the Warrior-archetypes). Not only is this boring, but it literally provides zero gameplay improvement - what is the reasoning behind no auto-attack? Who knows.

 

Stealth and cover are very underwhelming. Cover, in particular, is nigh worthless in PvP. The conical radius, the spent GCD, the fact that 4 classes can easily close range, and the fact that almost every class has a knock-back should be very clear indicators that a mechanic like cover is a terrible, terrible idea.

 

Stealth, as mentioned, is very odd. On one hand, it tries to mimic what stealth is in WoW (a fundamental mechanic of classes like rogues and feral druids), while more often than not it becomes merely a trivial escape mechanism. It needs to be fundamentally reworked - stealth should be a game mechanic, not a novelty.

 

PvE and Leveling

Admittedly, a high point of the game are the instances (known as flashpoints). Black Talon, Athiss, Hammer Station, etc. are all fairly well-designed. Mechanics are tried and true: get out of the fire, interrupt heals, kite bad stuff. This is where ToR really does feel like "WoW in space" and it's also arguably the best part of the game. As a matter of fact, the only reason I'm still playing is because I'm curious to see if the large-scale Operations will be as good as Flashpoints.

 

Leveling is fairly smooth, but the fact that the world is sharded can be distracting and does discourage grouping. Heroic 2+ man quests can be fun, but I found myself skipping them more often than not - the time invested doesn't seem worth it. During hardcore leveling periods, I also found myself skipping all VO. I don't care about your life story, I just want to get this quest out of the way. I feel somewhat guilty about it, but these are the scenarios that make me feel like side-quest VO is a swing and a miss - a very expensive miss.

 

PvP

PvP is a joke, there's not much more to say. It's an insult to any form of competitive activity. Huttball is one of the worst ideas I've ever seen implemented in an MMO: Warsong Gulch with a passable flag? Really? What irks me most is that someone actually made money coming up with such a terrible idea. Inconsistent traps, obnoxious commentators, bad layout, Huttball has it all. There are 15-year-olds that designed better Unreal Tournament maps. Sure, there may be some occasional mindless fun to be had with Huttball, but there's no real value here.

 

Alderaan is significantly better, but doesn't even compare to the wide variety of BGs present in MMOs like WoW or Rift. Ignoring WoW's trailblazing here, Rift's "Black Garden" was a particularly awesome innovation. World PvP is more or less nonexistent.

 

If ToR was Communist Russia, PvP would be human rights.

 

Companions

Companions were lauded by Bioware as being an evolutionary step as far as the genre is concerned. Unfortunately, they turned out to be glorified pets. They even have an ability pet bar just like in WoW! Some companions are interesting, some are boring. They do seem to break up the monotony of the often morose landscapes, but they are basically just pets.

 

Companion crafting is a great idea, however. Not having to worry about crafting stuff yourself is pretty neat. ToR sometimes surprises you with interesting and progressive innovations. Unfortunately, these moments are far and few in between.

 

DOA

Does The Old Republic have a chance? Not with what we see on day 1. No chance. Fanboys and fangirls may try to make a case for ToR, but the reality is that there is no case for ToR. There are many changes that need to make their way into ToR for it to be a competitor to 2nd tier MMOs, let alone giants like WoW.

 

UI mods have been requested since beta. A combat log has been requested since beta. There are absolutely no features that even begin to address the social element of the game: guild achievements, guild skill trees, etc. There's a need for competitive PvP, LFG finders, etc, etc. These shouldn't be post-release patches, this is 2012! These are basic elements of modern MMORPGs. I don' think ToR is finished.

 

The only reason ToR won't die in 6 months is "Bioware" and "Star Wars." Will these two names carry the burden for a year? Two? I doubt it. But then again, I could be wrong. http://warhammeronline.com/ is still going. Don't fool yourself though. It's dead.

 

You may berate me now, but don't forget this review 1 year down the line. ToR is dead. Long live Titan?

 

It must be nice to have this much time on your hands...

[malagaj]

The OP do have points there and I can see that you don't like some aspects of the game. It still doesn't make that other people will not.

 

And yes like some people have pointed out, saying "I am right and every one else who thinks different is wrong" is wrong way to start the whole review.

 

I can also say that there is plenty of people who has played as much as you and done whole lot work in the industry that thinks opposite of you, but again it is your own point of view.

 

I don't care at this point what will happen SW:tor one year for now, but I can say that it will be here at least half a year if not whole year.

 

P.S: not just OP but to every one. Why people think that other people care much what you write in your own "Review". We have blogs for that and not the general chat. This is these days an epidemic to see these so called reviews.

Edited December 20, 2011 by malagaj

[lordCriper]

Huttball is awesome.

 

I can't wait for Monday Night Huttball nights. OH SNAP THAT'S TONIGHT!

 

Oh, wait.. servers will be down... ONE WEEK FROM TODAY - MONDAY NIGHT HUTTBALL BEGINS!

 

Also - I disagree on the companions. I'm level 50 and it's great to be able to call on whichever type of companion I need. If I'm taking more damage, I pull out my healer companion. If I need to kill stuff fast, I pull out my DPS companion. I'm a tank, so I haven't had any use for a tank companion. Is that a glorified pet? I'm not sure. What exactly are you expecting your companion to contribute to your combat and mission experience? When you make a decision that pleases your companion, you gain affection with them. And in some missions your companion will intervene and add more dialogue to the mission making them a bit more than a pet. Do you want more intervention from the companion? Not sure what you're after here or what classifies SWTOR companions as "glorified pets."

 

I mean, it is annoying that you have to hotkey your companion attack button to attack your target because they seem to just attack whatever has the highest aggro for them. And I guess it seems rather silly when your companions just stand in area effects on the ground and make no effort to move out and you end up having to toggle their passive on and off to move them out of stuff. But by the same means, it adds another skill aspect to the game. I like it.

 

I don't think it's what the OP wants the pets to be that's the issue here. He just pointed out the fact that the devs (and certain parts of the community) have during alpha/beta/development of TOR stated that the Companions will be nothing less than a revolution to the MMORPG genre, which in retrospect is not the case.

 

Looking at them now it's pretty clear they are just pets, some might say glorified. Do they craft, yes, but you have to set up the crafting que. Which for some reason is capped to just 5 objects...

Do they add to the story, maybe a tiny little bit...

 

The only thing my pets in WoW couldn't do was to heal me, besides that they were not that different from the companions in TOR.

Oh forgot one thing, which is brilliant btw, sending the pets to sell grey is beutiful.

Edited December 20, 2011 by lordCriper

[Jeedaix]

Companions......What game has where you can level your skills by sending out your companion to do it for you, sell your gray items, and actually contributes to a fight instead of getting you killed, example you stun a mob they don't touch them....just one. This game is so far ahead of WoW it really is desperation to even be here and think different.

[Jeedaix]

He was in a Top 10 WoW guild guys cut him some slack The WoW kids are just ticked off their precious is no longer the king of the hill....lol

[KiznaCat]

I really couldn't get trough all posts....

 

But what OP and others are missing, about their "Everything should be in game from the start!"

 

Yes, maybe, from your point of view. maybe even from the point of the Developers. But face reality: Developing isn't cheap, and money does not grow on trees. And ToR is already at the point where it is the most expensive MMO at launch, if not even most expensive game of all times at launch... Might have beaten the previous record, which was MW2, or did it get beaten by BO or MW2.5?

 

 

 

Fact is anyway: They need to make a bit of money now, they surely will be working on new Content and new features already. But there is always a time where you have to say, "We have to release now, we run out of money!" And you surely don't want to spend your whole budget on developing, as you do need reserves for servers. Not just necessarily new servers to add, but also in case Hardware fries.

 

 

 

 

So basically: On your paper you think you can do this and that. if you think it is that easy, found a company, get investors, and try to make it better, and try to add everything you have in mind from the start. I'm sure you will fail miserably.

 

 

 

 

Also, while the OP's right to mention he plays WoW for some time, not that it really matter for being able to make a good review about a MMO, cause expertise is simply missing. The CSS thing is really far off.. it has really nothing to do with the topic or MMO's at all. And nice woot CPL, couldn't yawn louder.

 

 

It's just as meaningless like the following: I played for years in the ESL, played CS since Beta 1.0, played UT, Half Life DM, TFC, Quake 3, and so on and so on. Even worked as reporter in eSports. Though, what does that say? Just that i probably have no idear about MMOs, but about shooters or eSport.

 

 

What is relevant however: UO, EQ2, AO, Lineage 2, SWG, Lego Universe, WoW, Neocron, Global Agenda, STO, Aion, City of Heroes, City of Villains, Jumpgate, LotRO, Champions Online, Spiral Knights. And a few more that don't come to mind right now.

 

Does it make a difference? Not necessarily. For writing a review it does however, more expertise and experience. But if you write a review, you have to look neutral at absolutely everything anyway.

Edited December 20, 2011 by KiznaCat

[archifikoss]

 

DOA

Does The Old Republic have a chance? Not with what we see on day 1. No chance. Fanboys and fangirls may try to make a case for ToR, but the reality is that there is no case for ToR. There are many changes that need to make their way into ToR for it to be a competitor to 2nd tier MMOs, let alone giants like WoW.

 

UI mods have been requested since beta. A combat log has been requested since beta. There are absolutely no features that even begin to address the social element of the game: guild achievements, guild skill trees, etc. There's a need for competitive PvP, LFG finders, etc, etc. These shouldn't be post-release patches, this is 2012! These are basic elements of modern MMORPGs. I don' think ToR is finished.

 

The only reason ToR won't die in 6 months is "Bioware" and "Star Wars." Will these two names carry the burden for a year? Two? I doubt it. But then again, I could be wrong. http://warhammeronline.com/ is still going. Don't fool yourself though. It's dead.

 

You may berate me now, but don't forget this review 1 year down the line. ToR is dead. Long live Titan?

 

Sorry you're not having fun, and you are entitled to your opinion but...

 

Whilst I'm skipping some comments like lack of auto attack (which is a good thing IMO but ultimately comes down to personal preference), this last section invalidates all your review and makes it fail. HARD. And this one phrase is the turd that blocked the drainpipe of your until then clear stream of thoughts:

 

"Fanboys and fangirls may try to make a case for ToR, but the reality is that there is no case for ToR."

 

What ******** is this? Fanboys and fangirls? Are you thinking straight? So people who are ENJOYING the game because after hours of play find it FUN are FANBOYS? We like this game because we are enjoying our time with it, and its both its subjective and objective flaws don't get in the way of our ultimate enjoyment.

 

It's as strong a case as any.

Edited December 20, 2011 by archifikoss

[Holron]

Making a joke in a review = troll bait? News to me.

 

My argument is that PvP is underdeveloped in ToR (if my joke put you off-balance). Prove me wrong.

 

What ?

 

Prove you wrong that PVP in TOR is underdeveloped? What proof do you need? It cant provide ID. The proof for me, is I enjoy it, even when you play with people who dont know that passing is winning!

 

Also, for the record, your review was crap, but the comments afterward are well worth review.

Edited December 20, 2011 by Holron

[dvvx]

What ?

 

Prove you wrong that PVP in TOR is underdeveloped? What proof do you need? It cant provide ID. The proof for me, is I enjoy it, even when you play with people who dont know that passing is winning!

 

Also, for the record, your review was crap, but the comments afterward are well worth review.

 

Again, we're trying to have a civil/rational discussion.

 

To all the people saying I'm a WoW fanboy, I haven't played WoW for more than a year and now (I guess) I'll be waiting for GW2

[kennn]

enjoyed the read as always. good to see the haters come out of hibernation.

[Sykologist]

Two games,

 

One has been out a day.

 

The other for 6 years.

 

/thread

[dvvx]

Two games,

 

One has been out a day.

 

The other for 6 years.

 

/thread

 

Unfortunately, that argument doesn't hold much water. Even if we compare ToR with Rift (maybe a more able comparison), ToR still falls wayyy behind the curve.

[Sykologist]

Unfortunately, that argument doesn't hold much water. Even if we compare ToR with Rift (maybe a more able comparison), ToR still falls wayyy behind the curve.

 

Actually the argument holds plenty of water.

 

If you want a valid and rational comparison, it would be WoW Launch Day vs ToR Launch Day, or RIFT Launch Day vs ToR Launch Day.

 

You're trying to compare over 5 years of content updates, and bug fixes, to a game that's been out for 1 day (excluding development, and beta of both games).

 

And it's quite obvious, the OP never played WoW on launch day. It makes ToR queues seem minor.

[Hoseman]

Heres the problem with your review. You are completely biased in every way for blizzard.

 

several times you state your WoW achievements, your WoW guild status and even at the end of the thread you claim your waiting for the rumored "project titan".

 

This is just another well written blizzard fanboy post.

 

I know you can probably reply and claim you aren't but we all know its inherent in your comparisons and your biased opinions.

[CeruleanSun]

It was the best of times, it was the worst of times. For ToR, unfortunately, mostly the worst. This isn't my first review - I reviewed the game during the beta several times, but I was shunned by incredulous and overzealous fans. After all, it was "just" a beta. Well here we are, at the dawn of release - no longer in the beta. So where does this game stand in the grand scheme of things? How does it compare to WoW, SWG, Rift, GW2? Lets find out.

 

Who am I? I'm some dude that led a top-US CS:S team for many years, was a part of two top-10 WoW guilds, and played in several WoW Arena Tournies (including the CGS invitational) and many many CS tournaments, including the CPL. I also had a stint working for an indie game developer several years ago. I like to think that I know what I'm talking about, and usually, I do.

 

Story

Story. Story. Story. We've heard it over and over again. Bioware has really hammered this home - much how Vincent Chase is Queens Boulevard, The Old Republic is story. And story is one of the few battles ToR wins. The voice over quality is top notch and primary class quests are mostly interesting and engaging. Some may be deterred by the incessant use of family drama as a plot device since it gets old pretty fast. With that said, don't expect Chaucer, but the writing is sufficient.

 

Unfortunately, the side quests are problematic and suffer from trivial subject matters ("blah blah click some turrets") or endless fetch questing (go to X, come back to Y, go to X again, now back to Y). This wouldn't have been a problem 10 years ago, but 2012 is almost here. WoW has moved us past the trivialities of fetch questing and now we do cool stuff like lassoing dragons, bombing runs or mind-controlling giants. ToR pretends like there hasn't been an entire generation of MMORPGs since KOTOR and suffers for it greatly. Bonus quests are an interesting touch, but more often than not, they insult the player. Here you are doing the most trivial of tasks (ex: clicking control panels - a Bioware favorite) and a bonus quest pops up that asks you to kill 30 of the same type of mob. And just like that, we're all sent back to the late 90s. Bioware has a lot to learn from Jeff Kaplan.

 

On many levels, however, the VO is a technical achievement. Ordinarily, I'd have no problem with pouring so much money into something like voice over, but the gameplay significantly suffered from it. To me, that's unforgivable.

 

Combat

The crux of a good MMORPG is solid combat. I expect combat to be fluid, responsive, and logical. ToR has a pretty good grasp of what it wants to do, but doesn't quite reach the bar set by better MMOs. First of all, the "heroic" combat Bioware preached for years and years isn't as heroic as they made it out to be. Animations are often choppy and blocking animations seem to happen at random times (as opposed to having weapons make contact). But lets face it, it's not a big deal. What is a big deal, however, is the lack of an auto-attack.

 

This quizzical gameplay choice hurts more than it helps. It means that the gamer needs to manually press 1-1-1-1-1 (or right-click like a madman) to use the regular "white attack" ability and to generate resources that one may use (in the case of the Warrior-archetypes). Not only is this boring, but it literally provides zero gameplay improvement - what is the reasoning behind no auto-attack? Who knows.

 

Stealth and cover are very underwhelming. Cover, in particular, is nigh worthless in PvP. The conical radius, the spent GCD, the fact that 4 classes can easily close range, and the fact that almost every class has a knock-back should be very clear indicators that a mechanic like cover is a terrible, terrible idea.

 

Stealth, as mentioned, is very odd. On one hand, it tries to mimic what stealth is in WoW (a fundamental mechanic of classes like rogues and feral druids), while more often than not it becomes merely a trivial escape mechanism. It needs to be fundamentally reworked - stealth should be a game mechanic, not a novelty.

 

PvE and Leveling

Admittedly, a high point of the game are the instances (known as flashpoints). Black Talon, Athiss, Hammer Station, etc. are all fairly well-designed. Mechanics are tried and true: get out of the fire, interrupt heals, kite bad stuff. This is where ToR really does feel like "WoW in space" and it's also arguably the best part of the game. As a matter of fact, the only reason I'm still playing is because I'm curious to see if the large-scale Operations will be as good as Flashpoints.

 

Leveling is fairly smooth, but the fact that the world is sharded can be distracting and does discourage grouping. Heroic 2+ man quests can be fun, but I found myself skipping them more often than not - the time invested doesn't seem worth it. During hardcore leveling periods, I also found myself skipping all VO. I don't care about your life story, I just want to get this quest out of the way. I feel somewhat guilty about it, but these are the scenarios that make me feel like side-quest VO is a swing and a miss - a very expensive miss.

 

PvP

PvP is a joke, there's not much more to say. It's an insult to any form of competitive activity. Huttball is one of the worst ideas I've ever seen implemented in an MMO: Warsong Gulch with a passable flag? Really? What irks me most is that someone actually made money coming up with such a terrible idea. Inconsistent traps, obnoxious commentators, bad layout, Huttball has it all. There are 15-year-olds that designed better Unreal Tournament maps. Sure, there may be some occasional mindless fun to be had with Huttball, but there's no real value here.

 

Alderaan is significantly better, but doesn't even compare to the wide variety of BGs present in MMOs like WoW or Rift. Ignoring WoW's trailblazing here, Rift's "Black Garden" was a particularly awesome innovation. World PvP is more or less nonexistent.

 

If ToR was Communist Russia, PvP would be human rights.

 

Companions

Companions were lauded by Bioware as being an evolutionary step as far as the genre is concerned. Unfortunately, they turned out to be glorified pets. They even have an ability pet bar just like in WoW! Some companions are interesting, some are boring. They do seem to break up the monotony of the often morose landscapes, but they are basically just pets.

 

Companion crafting is a great idea, however. Not having to worry about crafting stuff yourself is pretty neat. ToR sometimes surprises you with interesting and progressive innovations. Unfortunately, these moments are far and few in between.

 

DOA

Does The Old Republic have a chance? Not with what we see on day 1. No chance. Fanboys and fangirls may try to make a case for ToR, but the reality is that there is no case for ToR. There are many changes that need to make their way into ToR for it to be a competitor to 2nd tier MMOs, let alone giants like WoW.

 

UI mods have been requested since beta. A combat log has been requested since beta. There are absolutely no features that even begin to address the social element of the game: guild achievements, guild skill trees, etc. There's a need for competitive PvP, LFG finders, etc, etc. These shouldn't be post-release patches, this is 2012! These are basic elements of modern MMORPGs. I don' think ToR is finished.

 

The only reason ToR won't die in 6 months is "Bioware" and "Star Wars." Will these two names carry the burden for a year? Two? I doubt it. But then again, I could be wrong. http://warhammeronline.com/ is still going. Don't fool yourself though. It's dead.

 

You may berate me now, but don't forget this review 1 year down the line. ToR is dead. Long live Titan?

 

i see you put a lot of thought into this... i didn't read it though because i couldn't care how tor and wow compare

[dvvx]

Actually the argument holds plenty of water.

 

If you want a valid and rational comparison, it would be WoW Launch Day vs ToR Launch Day, or RIFT Launch Day vs ToR Launch Day.

 

You're trying to compare over 5 years of content updates, and bug fixes, to a game that's been out for 1 day (excluding development, and beta of both games).

 

And it's quite obvious, the OP never played WoW on launch day. It makes ToR queues seem minor.

 

We've been over this before, but lets try again.

 

You don't compare your 2012 Honda Civic with a Ford Model-T, do you? Of course not, that would make no sense. You compare it to a 2012 Ford Mustang. ToR expects to be competitive TODAY, not a decade ago. Should we compare ToR with Pong, as well? Well in that case, you've got yourself a blockbuster.

 

Heres the problem with your review. You are completely biased in every way for blizzard.

 

several times you state your WoW achievements, your WoW guild status and even at the end of the thread you claim your waiting for the rumored "project titan".

 

This is just another well written blizzard fanboy post.

 

I know you can probably reply and claim you aren't but we all know its inherent in your comparisons and your biased opinions.

 

I'm a fanboi of good games. WoW is a good game, ToR is unfortunately not.

Edited December 20, 2011 by dvvx

[BloatedGuppy]

Again, we're trying to have a civil/rational discussion.

 

To all the people saying I'm a WoW fanboy, I haven't played WoW for more than a year and now (I guess) I'll be waiting for GW2

 

How to make a troll thread:

 

1. State exaggerated opinion as fact.

2. Poison the well by declaring anyone who disagrees with you is a fanboy/fangirl.

3. When confronted, claim you're "trying to have a civil/rational discussion"

[dvvx]

How to make a troll thread:

 

1. State exaggerated opinion as fact.

2. Poison the well by declaring anyone who disagrees with you is a fanboy/fangirl.

3. When confronted, claim you're "trying to have a civil/rational discussion"

 

I backed everything up with in-game data/facts. I've repeatedly proven my point on this thread. Also, if someone irrationally defends ToR, it's not poisoning to the well to assert that they are a fanboy.

[Sykologist]

We've been over this before, but lets try again.

 

You don't compare your 2012 Honda Civic with a Ford Model-T, do you? Of course not, that would make no sense. You compare it to a 2012 Ford Mustang. ToR expects to be competitive TODAY, not a decade ago. Should we compare ToR with Pong, as well? Well in that case, you've got yourself a blockbuster.

 

I'm a fanboi of good games. WoW is a good game, ToR is unfortunately not.

 

Unfortunately, MMOs are not cars. So your comparison is irrelevant and unintelligent. You might as well compare sandwiches to cars.

 

Not to mention, a life is at stake when it comes to cars. They are not essentially bought for enjoyment. And neither are they $60.

 

Pong is not an MMO either.

 

Please keeping bringing up irrelevant comparisons. They are hilarious, and show true ignorance.

 

(Btw, "good" is based on opinion, or in certain cases moral, beliefs. It is subjective)

 

Thanks for stopping by!

[Kookus]

Personal anecdotes, crying, and complete falsehoods.

 

Protip: what you consider to be "the crux" or even vaguely important, might not mean anything to the next person in the queue.

 

You want to compare a game that has had the better part of a decade to grow, mature, and refine its focus, to a game that is hot off the presses and hasn't had a paying player-base for even twenty-four hours? I will remember this a year from now, as you suggested... will you? I intend to be around to remind you about it.

 

/bookmark

[MalconisMoarte]

You like to refer to games as Modern MMOs, however they are only modern by age. since you like WoW so much ill make my point here. Most of the things WoW has now was not in on launch day. Remember that WoW has been developed over what like 10 years? (I don't really care to look up the day it started in development).

 

Your super Pro review is a review of some beta and day 1. Get over yourself with your pedigree opening and just quit the game if your not satisfied. Ill play the game and review it myself, or at least check out credible reviewing sites...not Joe blow on the forums touting his awesome game history.

Edited December 20, 2011 by MalconisMoarte

[Kookus]

I backed everything up with in-game data/facts. I've repeatedly proven my point on this thread. Also, if someone irrationally defends ToR, it's not poisoning to the well to assert that they are a fanboy.

 

The problem with that assertion is that you are nominating yourself as the sole authority on what is "irrational".

[Sykologist]

Protip: what you consider to be "the crux" or even vaguely important, might not mean anything to the next person in the queue.

 

You want to compare a game that has had the better part of a decade to grow, mature, and refine its focus, to a game that is hot off the presses and hasn't had a paying player-base for even twenty-four hours? I will remember this a year from now, as you suggested... will you? I intend to be around to remind you about it.

 

/bookmark

 

I personally enjoyed the self entitlement. Like the guild was Fires of Heaven, and he is the next Raph Koster.

Edited December 20, 2011 by Sykologist

[BloatedGuppy]

I backed everything up with in-game data/facts. I've repeatedly proven my point on this thread. Also, if someone irrationally defends ToR, it's not poisoning to the well to assert that they are a fanboy.

 

No, you "backed everything up" with your opinions, have repeatedly failed to recognize your own bias, have shifted the terms of the discussion whenever called out on something, and poisoned the well in your very first post...long before anyone's defense of the game could be qualified as "irrational".

 

I don't want to get into a slap fight with you because that benefits neither of us, but the tone and attitude of your "review" was less than helpful. You've tried to strike a humorously acerbic tone and failed. Amateur critical analysis can be fun to write, but it's not particularly fun to read, especially when it's strident, narrow minded, exaggerated as hell, and pre-emptively attacks all dissent.

[dvvx]

Unfortunately, MMOs are not cars. So your comparison is irrelevant and unintelligent. You might as well compare sandwiches to cars.

 

Not to mention, a life is at stake when it comes to cars. They are not essentially bought for enjoyment. And neither are they $60.

 

Pong is not an MMO either.

 

Please keeping bringing up irrelevant comparisons. They are hilarious, and show true ignorance.

 

(Btw, "good" is based on opinion, or in certain cases moral, beliefs. It is subjective)

 

Thanks for stopping by!

First of all, I was making an analogy, not a comparison. Whereas you may not be able to compare apples to oranges, you can certainly make analogous arguments that relate the two. The analogy also holds water. Why? Because it clearly displays the fact that new products need to be competitive in present-day markets, not in age-old markets and economic contexts of long-ago. This is why ToR should be compared with WoW today, not a decade ago.

 

Second of all, Pong was meant to show the slippery slope you're arguing. A more appropriate example would be UO. Should we compare ToR to UO? Of course not, UO was launched in 1999. Could we compare ToR to some MUDs from the mid-90s? Again, that's just silly.

 

'Good' is not biased or subjective. Take a class on ethics (people that say 'good' is subjective always get a good laugh). But I digress: 'good', as far as a video game is concerned, means that it fulfills certain gameplay requirements, a vast amount of people enjoy it, critics find it favorable, and it's usually financially successful. ToR doesn't meet alarmingly many gameplay requirements (my review was essentially about the gameplay).

 

No, you "backed everything up" with your opinions, have repeatedly failed to recognize your own bias, have shifted the terms of the discussion whenever called out on something, and poisoned the well in your very first post...long before anyone's defense of the game could be qualified as "irrational".

 

Please quote me anywhere where I backed myself with mere opinion. Here, I assume you're going to be fair. Ex: if I say the UI sucks, that's not an opinion - it's a fact. I can go into the details of why it sucks, but lets be fair.

Edited December 20, 2011 by dvvx