Skill based PvP

[Icestar]

let me just put it out there for you. WE KNOW DAMN WELL THAT GEAR MAKES A DIFFERENCE. we just ALSO know that skill makes a bigger difference, because those of us "at the top", have had to go up against OTHER people who are just as geared, and skill mattered.

 

No I do not believe that for a second. I have been around long enough to know how most got their gear and it is NOT only against equal geared players, not for a second.

 

I choosed to enjoy the eight different stories instead of grinding PvP matches over and over again. I was around when the geared level 50 were farming in pre 50 PvP warzones and I am around now when geared players are farming less geared players. I can not see the skill in that, I am sorry I can not.

Edited August 31, 2012 by Icestar

[Pvtcarnage]

No I do not believe that for a second. I have been around long enough to know how most got their gear and it is NOT only against equal geared players, not for a second.

 

I choosed to enjoy the eight different stories instead of grinding PvP matches over and over again. I was around when the geared level 50 were farming in pre 50 PvP warzones and I am around now when geared players are farming less geared players. I can not see the skill in that, I am sorry I can not.

 

Yeah so 8 months later treat every geared person like that.....pretty sad and jaded

[oredith]

No I do not believe that for a second. I have been around long enough to know how most got their gear and it is NOT only against equal geared players, not for a second.

yes, in fact, people like me had to pvp in recruit against full warhero, since I only started 1.5-2 months ago!

 

I choosed to enjoy the eight different stories instead of grinding PvP matches over and over again. I was around when the geared level 50 were farming in pre 50 PvP warzones and I am around now when geared players are farming less geared players. I can not see the skill in that, I am sorry I can not.

so, you were actually way ahead of me in terms of pvp gear?

[oredith]

I was around when the geared level 50 were farming in pre 50 PvP warzones and I am around now when geared players are farming less geared players. I can not see the skill in that, I am sorry I can not.

your incorrect assumption is that just because they outgear you, they do not ALSO outskill you.

[Icestar]

your incorrect assumption is that just because they outgear you, they do not ALSO outskill you.

 

And finally a personal insult against my PvP skills, you have no clue how good I am regarding PvP so leave it at that.

 

I only tell a little about PvP past and present, this is what happened and it is what happens right now.

 

If you choose to think it is any other way I respect it but I do advise you to play a few warzones once in a while to check up on reality.

[oredith]

And finally a personal insult against my PvP skills, you have no clue how good I am regarding PvP so leave it at that.

 

I only tell a little about PvP past and present, this is what happened and it is what happens right now.

 

If you choose to think it is any other way I respect it but I do advise you to play a few warzones once in a while to check up on reality.

just educated guesses.

 

a skilled pvp player doesn't complain about pvp - period. not about other people's team, their comp, their gear, or their skill.

 

they can tell where their shortcoming is, they are realistic with themselves, and they seek to improve themselves - and that improvement includes gear.

[Icestar]

just educated guesses.

 

a skilled pvp player doesn't complain about pvp - period. not about other people's team, their comp, their gear, or their skill.

 

they can tell where their shortcoming is, they are realistic with themselves, and they seek to improve themselves - and that improvement includes gear.

 

Well I will not go to your level and comment on your ability to make educated guesses.

 

You might interpret my posts as complaints, I understand that but that is not what they are. I simply enjoy a good constructive discussion to understand how geared players can actually say that they use pure skill in this game when the statistics point to the opposite. I state my thoughts and what I see while playing and my main point is always to point out flaws that can be corrected to expand the playerbase in the future.

 

With this current system there is no way it will attract new players to stay and endure this insane geargrind until a equal PvP status can be obtained.

 

Lets agree that we disagree without having to resort to insults, I do would like to read some constructive motivation why this current system is working. You probably have played one or two warzones the latest days and you must have seen the problems with less geared players, if you have not then please play and write back later on. The answer "go grind gear" is not working, I am sure that most players does not enjoy 500 warzones until they can play on a equal level.

 

.......or you might prefer that ranked warzones has problems and that regular warzones mostly consists of augmented warhero players. Lets hope that they want to stay because the playerbase is shrinking, that does not take a genious to figure out

Edited August 31, 2012 by Icestar

[oredith]

With this current system there is no way it will attract new players to stay and endure this insane geargrind until a equal PvP status can be obtained.

gear grind / timesink is/was/will always be the mainstay for MMO longevity. you may disagree with it, but you would be wrong.

 

Lets agree that we disagree without having to resort to insults

opinions that you do not like, do not mean they're insults. they're simply differing opinions.

I do would like to read some constructive motivation why this current system is working. You probably have played one or two warzones the latest days and you must have seen the problems with less geared players, if you have not then please play and write back later on. The answer "go grind gear" is not working, I am sure that most players does not enjoy 500 warzones until they can play on equal level.

I played 15 matches last night over the span of ~4 hours, a lot of drinking and joking around, but i did not hear one single peep of complaint about gear issues from my 3 friends who were in pve gear. In fact, my friend was really excited about replacing his rakata chest piece with the battlemaster piece he was able to buy from the night's pvp.

or you might prefer that ranked warzones has problems and that regular warzones mostly consists of augmented warhero players. Lets hope that they want to stay because the playerbase is shrinking, that does not take a genious to figure out

the fact that player base is shrinking is never in dispute, but I personally doubt it's because people are tired of the ~15 hour "grind" to get full battlemaster gear.

[UGLYMRJ]

I know but they are all we got in this game

 

Luckily, still better than general chat. I actually PM the poor bastards that ask for help on fleet and get trolled by the masses.

[Icestar]

opinions that you do not like, do not mean they're insults. they're simply differing opinions.

 

I do like different opinions, they are mostly the best if they are constructive and based on research. Opinions that are based on fiction, pure speculation and insult are not worth much though. Insults will limit your ability to post here on the forums aswell so please don´t.

 

Let´s bring in some other on-topic thoughts on this matter, perhaps the OP has something to say. I will call it a night and hope some others has written some fun and constructive posts that I enjoy to read in the morning.

Edited August 31, 2012 by Icestar

[UGLYMRJ]

gear grind / timesink is/was/will always be the mainstay for MMO longevity. you may disagree with it, but you would be wrong.

 

This...

 

Much is based on preference or opinion or even perspective.... but you can't really argue this point.

 

SWTOR is a cookie cutter image of WoW in many ways and the gear grind is not very different from what I remember. I'd say the fact that WoW has what... 6-8 million players or something crazy like that.... 8 years later, proves that this guy has a valid point.

 

If you could use an example of an MMO without a gear grind that has millions of players active for more than even a year I would be surprised. I can't think of any...

 

Even if you could... his point is still valid and I completely agree with it.

 

The way I see it.... it's the way to keep people "invested". Even if you've done everything there is to do... it's hard to just walk away from the gear and fluff that you've obtained from hours upon hours of play time that start turning into days and weeks of play time. Do you think that WH gear NOT being optimized was an accident? To top it off... paying a monthly subscription encourages investing more time per day, because people want to feel like they're getting their money's worth. And that just feeds into my original point of being "invested".

 

Pretty intelligent business plan honestly...

 

Don't forget, what's a game to you... is a business to someone else. Creating an updated clone of the most successful business/game ever.... not a bad plan. Especially using the most popular movie franchise in history. May not have been executed perfectly... but my point and his... it's seems pretty obvious why they chose the option of gear grind vs no gear grind.

Edited August 31, 2012 by UGLYMRJ

[MbaxterBeau]

just educated guesses.

 

a skilled pvp player doesn't complain about pvp - period. not about other people's team, their comp, their gear, or their skill.

 

they can tell where their shortcoming is, they are realistic with themselves, and they seek to improve themselves - and that improvement includes gear.

 

Actually I was a skilled pvp player in this and that skill was GREATLY enhanced with augments and gear as well as class imbalance. I had 9 players on my team a few times and that helped too. Oh and did I mention Biomed?

[oredith]

TL;DR - Why try to change SWTOR into something else when Guild Wars 2 is already what you seek?

exactly this.

[DegreesOfFreedom]

Can we get back on topic and discuss the merits of what the OP is proposing instead of bashing on one another. The OP is proposing an alternative que for warzones whereby gear is bypassed. So for those who loved their gear grind can still que for their regular warzones while those who prefer to fight others without the handicapped the gear gives would choose this alternative route. I honestly do not see the point of arguing or proving someones "skill" here as some of you are doing as this can only be settled in a warzone (with equal gear of course).

 

Here are my thoughts on why I agree with the OP:

1) The main problem with the current lvl 50 pvp system in place is the advantage of the geared players over the non-geared ones. Some of you are defending this system and even saying that this is part of the game. And while I respect this position, I must respectfully disagree that this is how a pvp competition should be. I agree that the gear grind is part of the process and that it can be argued that the system is fair because everyone has to go through with it. I have no qualms about this, this is an mmorpg and that is how mmorpgs work. However, the main problem here is how the competition in pvp are structured. Having a war hero player go against a recruit player is unfair - and that is a fact. In any professional competitive competition whether sports, academics, and even video games - all of these make stringent rules and regulations to make sure everyone is on equal footing. My point here is that, the way the warzones are structured in this game that allows for players to compete in different tiers of gear is not fair, its not balanced, and heavily favours the geared people over the non-geared ones. This is where the argument of skill comes into play as some are suggesting in this board.

 

2) Skill - I do not presume to think that a fresh 50 can kill a war hero player who had played since the beginning if both are given equal gear, what I do presume though is that if either beat each other, its that it was skill that is the determininating factor not the gear. Some of you here suggested that gearing is not only part of the process but also along with skill part of a competitive pvp system. And this is a valid point. BUT the position that says the system is unfair not of the process (of acquiring gear because everyone goes through with this) but how players compete with gear advantage over another is equally a valid point. This position, at first glance looks like it is more tricky to navigate because you are mixing equality and fairness in the process of acquiring the gear and the reality faced by recruits against war hero as part of the process. What we are trying to say here is exactly the unfairness of the matchup between these two because gear gives so much an advantage that skill is secondary. I get the feeling that you feel like that some of us who asks for this option wanted to be spoonfed the gear freely, but nothing can be farther from the truth. Some of us here justs prefer a pvp where there is no gear disparity between players, because lets face it, with the current system put into place, even though once you are fully geared in this game, you are still pitted against players who are undergeared than you. From my perspective, this is what is wrong with the system.

 

3) There is a different philosophy and mentality between a geared based pvp vs. a non-geared based pvp. While both require skill to be considered an elite and both looks at winning at all costs. The difference comes in the reward system. The gear based pvp's reward system is the new tiers of gears while the non-geared pvp's are more intrinsic - just prove your skills and win. And while it can be argued that it is also intrinsic in the gear based system, the problem lies in the environment of its warzone pvp - the fact that there is a disparity between war heros and recruit people playing the game makes skill secondary - and that is a fact. And what is also a fact is that this matchup would always be unfair. For the non-geared pvp - the environment already promotes skill because gear is nonexistent, everyone is equal. And while I do not dispute the fact that the gear based model works (WoW), I think the better model is the non-geared pvp. There are already numerous games that implement them - almost all fps games, almost all 2d/3d fighter games. What these games have in common is the understanding of how the human competition and psychology works and that people will continue to play these games for years, long after the developers stopped making new content and maps for them because they are not looking for new gear, they are looking to be the best player on the planet. This is what pvp should be.

 

All we're asking for is a different warzone que where gear is ignored or set to all recruit levels. That is all. For those who prefer the normal warzone model, we are not asking to remove them. I've been on this earth long enough to understand that people have different opinions and different point of views and I respect that. We are not trying to displaced your preferred model. But please try to also respect our point of view of why we liked this model more.

[ingenuityfails]

I get the feeling that you feel like that some of us who asks for this option wanted to be spoonfed the gear freely, but nothing can be farther from the truth. Some of us here justs prefer a pvp where there is no gear disparity between players,

 

This exactly.

 

I like both gear-based and skill-based PvP. And I don't see why it's necessary to only have one or the other. It seems to me that whether you look at SWtOR as a game or a business, adding in an option to queue for warzones that take the gear factor out has lots of pro's and no con's. It is increasing the games content without compromising the content already there, and increasing the size of the market the game can cater to.

[Icestar]

Actually I think this could work in regular warzones aswell.

 

I think there should be a option to click when we sign up if gear should be accounted for or not.

 

It is possible to create and those that play "gearless" could be marked in a special way. I actually think it would be a success. Then the players could step up and prove that their skill matters over gear.

 

SWTOR could be the first MMO to do this and I bet it would attract players. I wrote this in the suggestionbox aswell.

 

Wonderful thought

Edited September 1, 2012 by Icestar

[Malkavier]

People keep crying about gear. You remove the gear, it is not in any way, shape, or form a matter of skill left over. It's the cumulative effect of your computer hardware vs their hardware, your internet speeds vs theirs, and if their route to the game servers are more or less reliable than yours.

 

Skill will have nothing to do with it, especially the way classes are currently balanced.

[Icestar]

People keep crying about gear. You remove the gear, it is not in any way, shape, or form a matter of skill left over. It's the cumulative effect of your computer hardware vs their hardware, your internet speeds vs theirs, and if their route to the game servers are more or less reliable than yours.

 

Those things are out of any gamecompanys reach to either fix or influence. The suggestion of playing with skill instead of gear actually is possible to create and it could attract those that left SWTOR PvP to come back and stimulate the PvP community immensely.

Edited September 1, 2012 by Icestar

[heechJunzi]

If progression-less PvP is the goal... why not just keep rolling alts, and play 10-49? Boosted-PVP is basically exactly what GW2 gives you in WvWvW.

 

Why does it have to be 50s?

[ingenuityfails]

Actually I think this could work in regular warzones aswell.

 

I think there should be a option to click when we sign up if gear should be accounted for or not.

 

It is possible to create and those that play "gearless" could be marked in a special way. I actually think it would be a success. Then the players could step up and prove that their skill matters over gear.

 

SWTOR could be the first MMO to do this and I bet it would attract players. I wrote this in the suggestionbox aswell.

 

Wonderful thought

 

While it's a pretty good idea, it does start to encroach on the geared-PvPers territory. And that's exactly what I'd like to avoid. Having them as 2 completely separate queues means they don't bother each other, and nobody feels like what kind of game they're playing is out of their hands, everybody is playing with like-minded peers. As I mentioned, I do think gear-based PvP is a good thing. It gives you something to progress towards, keeps people interested, but more importantly it allows people to specialize.

 

To clarify. Mixed matches are unfair. A full Recruit v Recruit match is fair. A full War Hero vs War Hero match is also fair. However War Hero is more customisable than Recruit. An example (using sage dps, because that's how I roll):

- if you're a balance sage, you can switch out all the alacrity mods to get more power/crit/surge.

- if you're telekinetic, you can boost up your alacrity to make yourself harder to interrupt.

- if you want survivability over dps, you can switch out the Willpower > Endurance armouring for the Willpower < Endurance armouring.

- and in reverse, if you're a healer who has a team of people you know you can rely on, you might want switch out your Willpower < Endurance armouring for Willpower > Endurance armouring to max out your heals.

 

In Recruit v Recruit everyone is equal because everyone's stats are the same through restricted gear.

In War Hero vs. War Hero everyone is equal because while everyone is wearing the same level of gear, everyone has access to whichever armouring/mod/enhancement/augment of that level they think is best.

Despite being on the same level of gear, and therefore on equal footing, no 2 characters are exactly the same, and that is part of the fun of PvP.

Yes, straight up battle skill is the most important part of PvP, but having the intelligence to successfully optimise your gear to make the most of your playstyle/spec is another kind of skill that I would hate to start seeing go unappreciated. Because the guy who has mastered both skills, is - in my mind at least - the guy who deserves to be on top.

 

However, making a queue where everyone has access to full War Hero and the customisation for it would break PvP. Nobody would have reason to queue for normal warzones any more. I'd hate to see that.

Edited September 1, 2012 by ingenuityfails

[ingenuityfails]

If progression-less PvP is the goal... why not just keep rolling alts, and play 10-49? Boosted-PVP is basically exactly what GW2 gives you in WvWvW.

 

Why does it have to be 50s?

 

It has to be 50's because even if you did switch to an alt every time you hit 50, you'd eventually have to start deleting characters. It's not a long term solution for people who intend to invest a lot of time in this game. Giving up on something when it doesn't work for you isn't as satisfying as finding a way to make it work for you.

[Icestar]

To clarify. Mixed matches are unfair. A full Recruit v Recruit match is fair. A full War Hero vs War Hero match is also fair. However War Hero is more customisable than Recruit. An example (using sage dps, because that's how I roll):

- if you're a balance sage, you can switch out all the alacrity mods to get more power/crit/surge.

- if you're telekinetic, you can boost up your alacrity to make yourself harder to interrupt.

- if you want survivability over dps, you can switch out the Willpower > Endurance armouring for the Willpower < Endurance armouring.

- and in reverse, if you're a healer who has a team of people you know you can rely on, you might want switch out your Willpower < Endurance armouring for Willpower > Endurance armouring to max out your heals.

 

In Recruit v Recruit everyone is equal because everyone's stats are the same through restricted gear.

In War Hero vs. War Hero everyone is equal because while everyone is wearing the same level of gear, everyone has access to whichever armouring/mod/enhancement/augment of that level they think is best.

Despite being on the same level of gear, and therefore on equal footing, no 2 characters are exactly the same, and that is part of the fun of PvP.

Yes, straight up battle skill is the most important part of PvP, but having the intelligence to successfully optimise your gear to make the most of your playstyle/spec is another kind of skill that I would hate to start seeing go unappreciated. Because the guy who has mastered both skills, is - in my mind at least - the guy who deserves to be on top.

 

I agree 100% my suggestion was only a modification of your original idea.

[ingenuityfails]

I agree 100% my suggestion was only a modification of your original idea.

 

I'm not saying anything you said is a bad idea, I'm just looking out for not stepping on anyone's toes.

Say, if you queued for a normal game, wanting a normal game, and the other team queued intending to switch on their hypothetical 'equal terms PvP' flags. One of the teams is going to end up feeling like they didn't get exactly what they wanted.

[underjollyroger]

I'd love to have gear-free, skill based star wars pvp.. From how pvp has been evolving during the last 9 months however I doubt this will ever come. Until now we have only had - 1 additional WZ, nerfs and moar gear. Nothing else.

[heechJunzi]

It has to be 50's because even if you did switch to an alt every time you hit 50, you'd eventually have to start deleting characters. It's not a long term solution for people who intend to invest a lot of time in this game. Giving up on something when it doesn't work for you isn't as satisfying as finding a way to make it work for you.

If there's no progression, so what if you have to delete a character? What is this "investing" thing, what dividends are you hoping to gain, if your objective is the sheer pleasure of (roughly) equal PvP?