50 PvP, no skill only gear?

[Icestar]

I have not been that active before playing level 50 PvP mainly because the huge misstake they made in the start by mixing extremly geared level 50 players with players with no gear at all.

 

Nowdays I have actually played 50 PvP with the expertise gear we are handed and some battlemaster parts.

 

I can honestly say that it it is a real shame to see that it actually has not changed at all. The matches are dominated by those with gear and it matters not at all how good you are to play it is still up to the gear you wear and how you opponents are geared.

 

Very sad to experience that actually, I had high hopes for a good time with my 50 characters but sadly that will not happen since I do not intend to spend hundreds of hours to grind gear only to be able to reach where PvP will be fun.

 

I really really miss pre 50 PvP, I hope Bioware release more characterslots soon since all my eight characters are level 50 now.

 

Most of my characters are valor 50+ so I do have a clue how to play them

Edited August 18, 2012 by Icestar

[Helistin]

Get a battlemaster set,augment it and you are completely viable in pvp. Takes a week or two.

[Icestar]

Get a battlemaster set,augment it and you are completely viable in pvp. Takes a week or two.

 

Grind a week or two in warzones where I do not enjoy to play only to reach somewhat equal ground after a week or two?

 

Hah, I have more fun washing my socks.

 

Sad, very sad that players have to experience such a downfall in entertainment from pre 50 to 50 PvP play.

 

I have read about 50 PvP beeing bad, I had no clue it was this bad though

Edited August 18, 2012 by Icestar

[Altheran]

Get a battlemaster set,augment it and you are completely viable in pvp. Takes a week or two.

 

Are they really some guys who augment their BattleMaster gear even if the augmentation kit goes to waste when they'll exchange it for WarHero ?

[Helistin]

Grind a week or two in warzones where I do not enjoy to play only to reach somewhat equal ground after a week or two?

 

Hah, I have more fun washing my socks.

 

Sad, very sad that players have to experience such a downfall in entertainment from pre 50 to 50 PvP play.

 

I have read about 50 PvP beeing bad, I had no clue it was this bad though

 

if you are not ready to play 5-10 games a night for a week or two for a complete set you are most likely playing the wrong game. They aren't handing out gear completely free in pve either.

Oh and nope, pre level 50 pvp farming fresh level 10 newbies isn't fun. Atleast for them.

[HaLeX]

What the guy above said get BM and augment them. It takes so long to get WH and the stat increase is not very good.

After you have full bm one or two WH peices all augmented you will be competitive. After that experience and skill which are heavily correlated will play a more prominent role. That is assuming you dont choose a gimped class to play then it wont matter what gear you have. And yes I augmented all my BM while waiting for WH, if iI didnt have the credits, np i would choose a cheaper augment until i saved enough. The whole thing takes 10 days maybe.

Edited August 18, 2012 by HaLeX

[Icestar]

if you are not ready to play 5-10 games a night for a week or two for a complete set you are most likely playing the wrong game. They aren't handing out gear completely free in pve either.

Oh and nope, pre level 50 pvp farming fresh level 10 newbies isn't fun. Atleast for them.

 

I am ready to play more games then that if I have fun. That is what games are all about right?

 

To have fun

 

Regarding gear PvE - PvP, well in PvE you usually follow a gear ladder hence you have your starter equipment and take down mobs that fits your gear and then move on with better gear in a natural progression.

 

Here in ToR PvP warzones you just get thrown out in a jungle and are supposed to spend time not having fun only to be able to have fun later on. That is a WIERD philosophy

Edited August 18, 2012 by Icestar

[SweetOldBob]

Gear matters, quite a bit. But that's not the whole story. I'm a noob, this is my first MMO, I'm getting better but still not very good at PvP. I have a Sent and a Commando that are both very well geared (mostly augmented WH with a few BM pieces), but at the end of a WZ I finish near the bottom (especially with my Sent) more often than at the top.

 

I've quit desparing when I see a roster of teammates who are sub-15K in HP, because many times a 14k player will finish near the top.

 

It's a bummer to face a team that completely outgears yours, but weirdly enough, that motivates me to get better gear.

[Jayshames]

Obviously it's not only gear that matters.

 

Also, some classes adapt to fresh 50 pvp much easier.

My sorcerer for example felt terrible going into 50 pvp, wasn't doing much damage and was dropping like a fly every time I got hit.

Whereas I just hit 50 on my Vanguard the other day, sure I still die if people get on me, but I can hang back and still get 3-4k critical hits all the time on my HiB and assault plastique, just have to grind PvP, got 5 pieces of BM so far. Gets better after every piece.

 

 

I've quit desparing when I see a roster of teammates who are sub-15K in HP, because many times a 14k player will finish near the top.

 

This is the case for my Vanguard, I've already had alot of warzones where I've been top of board and top damage, even in recruit gear I was still geting 350k+ damage/warzone and a good 50k protection from just taunts alone.

Edited August 18, 2012 by Jayshames

[Blasphemerr]

Are they really some guys who augment their BattleMaster gear even if the augmentation kit goes to waste when they'll exchange it for WarHero ?

 

 

Of course. It takes a few days to earn a full set of battlemaster. It takes multiple days sometimes a week or more to earn a single piece of warhero. It certainly isn't cheap to the average player, but if you're a PVPer credits are about meaningless and who doesn't want more ideal stats/health earlier?

[AngusFTW]

A wh geared person who is bad because they never bothered to learn there class will get destroyed by a recruit person that knows there class inside out, obviously generally someone in full wh will be more experienced at there class thats why the gear gap seems so big. Edited August 18, 2012 by AngusFTW

[ZUZiK]

People that lose in pvp always blame gear. When they get gear they will blame class imbalance, faction imbalance etc. There is always something that prevents great players to shine.

[MyDarkSunshine]

Having done the grind to almost complete War Hero (some pieces of Battlemaster are actually preferable IMO) on a Jedi Guardian, both on a roughly equal footing with the majority of other players on my old server, and at a slight disadvantage after switching server, and having started the grind on a Sage - which, for reference, is like going from Godmode in pre-50 to fly on the windscreen at 50 - I honestly don't see what the problem is.

 

Simply put, objectives win the game. A recruit will not go toe to toe, one on one against a War Hero, but they shouldn't expect to. However a recruit can still contribute in a meaningful manner to the success of a team, assuming they play with the intention of doing so and not with the intention of seeing big numbers and getting solo kills. Skill-full play still exceeds gear, in this respect, and chances are if you're being dominated by War Heroes it is because a) yes, gear does indeed make a difference - but not 'the difference', and b) having played the excessive amount of matches required to get War Hero gear, they probably know exactly what they need to do at any given time to contribute to a win.

 

Yes, on my augmented War Hero Guardian I can easily take an objective that is solo guarded by a recruit. But that is the other teams fault for leaving a recruit to solo guard a node. Even a tank in recruit gear isn't going to hold long* against a sudden surge of attackers for the length of time required for reinforcements to arrive - but then, if the attackers are skilled enough, a tank in any gear will have trouble without fast backup. As a War Hero Guardian I have also been completely outplayed by a recruit geared Assassin; they started with mind trap, and as I wasn't born yesterday I didn't break CC - and called out "1 stealth left" in chat. They reapplied and then started to take node, so I broke CC and engaged. They then used their stealth move, and managed to LoS/hide long enough for combat to end. Re-applied mind trap and the node was lost [reinforcements were slow, as we were losing anyway].

* They'll hold longer through clever use of stuns and line of sighting; skill does make a difference.

 

As the Sage I get massacred by classes that I had been dominating a level or two before. That is perfectly fine - I'd happily killed level 49s and level 10s alike in pre-50 PvP, why should the War Heroes let me off easy because I'm in a recruit gear? They shouldn't. Can a recruit Sage still contribute to the success of a team? Easily. I've capped nodes from War Hero players that have played poorly one on one (never CC break a Sage's Force stun, seriously), I've scored - and enabled other players to score in Huttball, and I've managed to run interference long enough to make a difference in a game. I am by no means a great player. Anyone can accomplish these feats at any gear level.

 

Skill makes a difference. So does gear. It is factually incorrect to suggest level 50 PvP takes no skill, and only requires players to be well geared to win.

 

My advice for those entering level 50 PvP, regardless of previous characters/alts is simple:

1. Drop any assumption that you are a skilled player. Without an ego to bruise, getting stomped on is less noticeable.

1b. Do not let your previous few levels of slaughtering level 10s make you believe differently; you will get schooled in your first few games at 50 if you do.

2. Grind out the limit of WZ and ranked WZ comms before hitting 50. This will get you 1-3 pieces of BM/WH depending on what items you choose. Better than entering in full recruit.

3. Steer clear of ranked warzones. Even in fully augmented WH they aren't pretty.

4. Play for objectives, not for big numbers.

5. Enjoy the game. Do not get wound up by who kills who, or who wins what.

Edited August 18, 2012 by MyDarkSunshine

[Icestar]

People that lose in pvp always blame gear. When they get gear they will blame class imbalance, faction imbalance etc. There is always something that prevents great players to shine.

 

This is NOT the point of my thread. I have won mostly of the warzones I have played and I only make the statement that gear is more valuable then skill in ToR warzone PvP.

 

Anyone that has tried to enter a few 50 warzones WITH good knowledge of their character euipped in recruitgear will find out that my statement is true.

 

I was only so surprised to find out that it was still broken and it demands so much time to have a character that is 1) Fun to play 2)Not a burden to the team and demands more healing and attention

 

You can basilcy hit someone and the healthbar barely moves, then the person hit back and half your hp is gone.

 

I only ask for some constructive thoughts and intelligent answers. Can anyone honestly say it is a fair fight when there is a difference of 1000 expertise and use the term "pure skill". Then that person clearly have no clue what he/she is talking about.

 

Expertise ruins 50 PvP experience in my eyes, it removes the use of skill completely

Edited August 18, 2012 by Icestar

[Daiyukie]

So if I give you my perfectly statted WH Scrapper and say "Have at it", you'll do just as good as me because the gear is good?

 

Somehow I doubt it.

Edited August 18, 2012 by Daiyukie

[Icestar]

So if I give you my perfectly WH Scrapper and say "Have at it", you'll do just as good as me because the gear is good?

 

Somehow I doubt it.

 

I might, or might not since I have no clue how good you are at PvP. Valor has been farmable by all kinds of ways since launch so having PvP gear means nothing more then that you run around in a portable bunker and tells nothing about pure skill.

 

But I do like how you think, to meet at equal terms with only your knowledge of your character. That is real PvP to me!

[ForsakenKing]

Just wanted to add my expereince. I recently leveled a GS to 50 (about 10 days ago?). I came in with the full amount of Ranked/Unranked coms, spent ranked on implants/ear (cant remember which i bough first) and BM gear. it took me 1 weekly to get full BM-relics. I felt usefull at about half BM. I did however have to pop medpacks/expertise stims like they were candy. Edited August 18, 2012 by ForsakenKing

[Daiyukie]

I might, or might not since I have no clue how good you are at PvP. Valor has been farmable by all kinds of ways since launch so having PvP gear means nothing more then that you run around in a portable bunker and tells nothing about pure skill.

 

But I do like how you think, to meet at equal terms with only your knowledge of your character. That is real PvP to me!

 

That's a fair point, I'm used to people knowing who I am on my server now lol. Gear only negates itself at equal levels, then skill and class are far more important. The game is balanced around the top end as it should be, War Hero versus War Hero when gear is really no longer a factor because equal expertise cancels itself out and similar stats are similar on WH gear, everyone has access to the same mods and enhancements. Would you rather it be balanced around... I dunno, endurance or something?

 

I can't actually comprehend the complaints about expertise and such when people in Recruit get killed. You're in crappy gear, it's normal. Doesn't mean anything about your skill, but the way you LoS, root and stun does say something about it.

[Icestar]

That's a fair point, I'm used to people knowing who I am on my server now lol.

 

Since you say you are so famous, then I have a challenge for you that you probably won´t dare to accept.

 

Go get yourself a complete recruitarmour exactly as you get it from the vendor and play warzones as usual for a few days. It will be interesting to see how far your "skill" will take you then.

 

I have no clue who you are and I dont want to know either, the satisfaction of what I know will happen to you is enough

 

Then you will see what this thread is all about, no whining only pure fact that gear owns skill in a level 50 warzone.

Edited August 18, 2012 by Icestar

[Daiyukie]

Since you say you are so famous, then I have a challenge for you that you probably won´t dare to accept.

 

Go get yourself a complete recruitarmour exactly as you get it from the vendor and play warzones as usual for a few days. It will be interesting to see how far your "skill" will take you then.

 

I have no clue who you are and I dont want to know either, the satisfaction of what I know will happen to you is enough

 

I won't be able to hunt PTs and kill Sents/Marauders 1v1 anymore, because only when I got great stats was I able to. Do you think I didn't experience lower gear and magicked myself up a suit of optimized War Hero? If I fight a Recruit-geared Sent, however, it will be the same story, I will win in about the same way as my War Hero vs War Hero Sent.

 

Gear cancels itself out when faced with equal opposition. People just cry because they can't beat War Hero wearing Recruit gear, which is by design. You know, gear progression? I'm not particularly a fan, but I don't mind it either, min-maxing is part of RPGs; Battlemaster augmented and optimized is quite good, I know first-hand.

 

BM armoring to WH armoring= +3 main stat and +3 endurance. That trend continues for basically every mod/enhancement of like type you'll find, the Power/Surge Enhancement at BM level is what, +37 Power/+48 Surge and the WH Enhancement is +41 Power/+53 Surge? Something along those lines, so you're gaining a few stat points per War Hero piece. 3 x 3 x 7 = 63 in best-case scenario, if you somehow had +Power on all 3 components of all your main War Hero pieces (armor + weapon and offhand) for example.

 

So.. yeah, not much difference and BM is easily obtainable, but if you don't want to save up during sub-50 to get 3500 ranked/2000 warzone comms and upgrade right off the bat, then play for like a week to round out your BM gear, that's the problem, not the game. Implants aren't expensive at all and the Champion relics for credits are actually quite decent, netting you +98 Power I believe along with a good amount of expertise. Again, the difference between that and War Hero relics is pretty negligible, but those that do the small upgrade for major cost get the small advantage.

[Icestar]

IPeople just cry because they can't beat War Hero wearing Recruit gear, which is by design. You know, gear progression?

 

Thankyou for confirming my original statement in my first post. Gear according to you are by design constructed to prevent pure skill to be used, hence my original statement that gear wins over skill.

 

You talk about gear progression, well usually gear progression is adapted to the environment. It is that way in most games and even here if you look at the PvE part. You get some gear, use it against mobs that are challenging to finally beat them and move taking harder mobs on.

 

In PvP level 50 Warzone you do not have that natural progresson, you are zoned into a jungle with players that uses their gear to win. You say yourself that a recruit geared player cant win over a war hero geared player, is that progression? No not by a long shot.

 

PvP on equal terms where pure skill is used is fantastic, this wierd stuff we got in ToR where players hide behind their gear to win is hopeless. I hope you guys get enough players that want to pay for the grind to reach that when ToR goes F2P. Level 10-49 PvP was fantastic I have played eight classes through that only to find that level 50 PvP is hopeless.

 

Time will tell if ToR survives this concept in F2P, there must be some players that wants to go through that grind. If not I guess you WH guys are stuck with eachother until the last person drops out.

[Daiyukie]

Thankyou for confirming my original statement in my first post. Gear according to you are by design constructed to prevent pure skill to be used, hence my original statement that gear wins over skill. [...]

 

No, it doesn't. It gives a sense of progression and Recruit vs Recruit is the same as War Hero vs War Hero. That's all it is. If you don't like the system, don't play.

[Mizhas]

The problem is that, wait for it, THIS IS A MMO!

 

SURPRISE!!! Gear progresion is a part of every mmo so get used to it. If you wanna PvP from day one go and find yourself another game.

 

BTW this game has a much more important imbalance: OP classes are a much more important issue than gear progresion theese days in SWTOR.

 

As it has been said before in this post, level yourself the appropiate class and with skill you'll be owning full WHs being fresh 50.

[thefishdude]

This is NOT the point of my thread. I have won mostly of the warzones I have played...

 

It's funny when ppl say this. Let's see a screenshot of your win/loss record then.

[Icestar]

No, it doesn't. It gives a sense of progression and Recruit vs Recruit is the same as War Hero vs War Hero. That's all it is. If you don't like the system, don't play.

 

I do like the system as it is PvP 10-49, it is the 50-bracket they introduced a few months ago that is broken real bad.

 

I played warzone PvP when everyone got into the same warzone and Bioware scratched their heads what to do when the scaling went over the roof with players wearing the armour found in raids and heroics. Snipers oneshotting players and invulnerable armour. They had simply never thought it through what would happen when a player above level 49 stepped in and had stats above the thought max boosted 49.

 

Now they have something that is equal bad only that players below 50 are spared from it. I have enjoyed every valor rank I have until now when I am forced to play 50 PvP. I will not start over with my very high legacy on another server, it is new buyable characterslots or nothing.

 

The system we have now is not normal progression, if it was the recruit geared would play for themselves and the high geared warhero players would clash off on their own. PvP on EQUAL terms, using skill not hiding behind gear that migitates 85% of hits taken or even worse.

 

Players used to love to come farm lower level characters until Bioware stopped it and made a 50 bracket. We thought on the forum at the time that it would actually evolve into something good but it only stopped with this stupid 8-man premade thingy that very few players actually get to play.

 

End game PvP Warzone in ToR is severely broken and needs to be looked at. Sadly most of the DEVs that used to work with this seems to have been fired. It has been awful silent about PvP changes for ages now, time will tell if they do something or let the PvP warzone system die in peace.

Edited August 18, 2012 by Icestar