is vengeance viable for rated pvp?

[kwakkwak]

Hi, full wh aug jug here... no vengeance/vigilance spec is not viable for ranked or for pugs. There are only 2 viable jug/guard builds rage(dps) and hybrid(tank) other are useless. As i mentioned in class specialization topic veng/vigi and defense should be merged together and make one viable tank spec, because vigi/veng has so many nice perks for tanking as unremitting/unstoppable, rage generation on knock, sunders generation, pooled hatred/gather strength.

 

Veng/vigi is in the worst dps spec group with lethality snipers/operatives, arsenal mercs, telekinetics/lightning sorcerers, and yes concealment operative is better. Why it is so bad:

1. It is melee, well this one is obvious

2. Spec heavily reliable on master strike/ ravage and impale/overhead which do weapon damage which is mitigiated by armor, can be parried/deflected/dodged. The best weapon damage spec is combat/carnage, because they have 100 armor penetration.

3. Shien is crap and when you are running in that stance, you're really squishy

4. No burst. Yes this spec dont have burst or decent sustainable dps, hell you cant kill heal solo

5. Dots. Dots are weak and quickly cleansed

6. Nothing to put on table. You say we have awe, but pyrotech have awe, one more stun and pull which are better. Merc got stun and knock, hybrid sorcs has flashbang shield and other precious thing, conceal operative can heal on top of stealth, ******** of cc, and insane burst, mara got party wide buffs. You cant guard in vengeance, because if you not in shien your damage is terrible.

7. Have to stack accu to be viable, while rage stack power

 

Somebody say they do 500k damage in long games, well rage can do 1mil in long match, can run in soresu and guard damage will be 5k+, attacks cant be blocked or parried, got 2 roots.

 

P.s. I really liked that spec and it is much more fun to play veng than rage(i hate it personally), but after switch rage it is out of question which is better. They need to completely redesign juggernaut trees

 

i agree with this except with leth being listed as worse then conc. a good leth opt can churn out HEAPS of damg. and has as good if not better burst then conc. the issue with leth is most players cant play the spec cause it is a challenge to play correctly. that said in rated right now its all about pyro PT/ vans, sents/maras, opt healers and hybrid shadows/sins with a peppering of hybrid/rage juggs. wtb a nice balancing patch and Xrealm ques. it prob to late to save this game from MoP and GW2 but i still have hope.

[Roiz]

veng immortal is the best spec currently for juggs. obv people will play what they like but overall it is the best spec.

Yes it is great spec for ball carrying, tanking and defending objective points, but not DPS. OP wants to play full vigilance as dps spec.

[Cappadin]

Full augmented warhero vigilance guardian here, 1800 rwz rating 57-14 w/l ratio. After playing focus/vig/ and vig.def specs I've come conclusions about each spec

 

1. Focus: good for lolsweep aoe damage against bads or when stacking multiple coordinated focus knights. I personally find it gimmicky, predictable, and squishy.

 

Now comes the debate between full vigilance and vig.def hybrid.

 

Vig.def pros: 6% defense chance over full vig spec and a 10 second, 40% damage reduction every 3 minutes. You can use this ability 5 times in a full length warzone if you use it off cd every time and do not wait for optimal usage.

ful focus generation due to being stuck in soresu, and a horrible, incomplete, clunky rotationw

To me, the con of losing the ability to stance dance from shien to soresu is game breaking. As full vigilance you have a fluid rotation, 100% uptime on autocrit bs and dispatch and another ability to take ms off cd. The chnce to do 4 masterstrikes in 30 seconds is amazing. With unremitting someone needs near perfect timing to avoid the last hit. Even*avoid it they are forced to use a defensive cooldown, potentially 4 if they even have that

 

Imo I perform best as full vigilance. Granted, my first priority is playing support like a def.vig hybrid but when you can tell your team isn't feeling much pressure, switching to shien can help you clean up quickly and ready your team for a shift.

 

Also, s I wear tanking offpiecea like relics, earpiece and implant for ball carrying and defending on voidstar or ce.

Edited August 20, 2012 by Cappadin

[BurningCourage]

Hi, full wh aug jug here... no vengeance/vigilance spec is not viable for ranked or for pugs. There are only 2 viable jug/guard builds rage(dps) and hybrid(tank) other are useless. As i mentioned in class specialization topic veng/vigi and defense should be merged together and make one viable tank spec, because vigi/veng has so many nice perks for tanking as unremitting/unstoppable, rage generation on knock, sunders generation, pooled hatred/gather strength.

 

Veng/vigi is in the worst dps spec group with lethality snipers/operatives, arsenal mercs, telekinetics/lightning sorcerers, and yes concealment operative is better. Why it is so bad:

1. It is melee, well this one is obvious

2. Spec heavily reliable on master strike/ ravage and impale/overhead which do weapon damage which is mitigiated by armor, can be parried/deflected/dodged. The best weapon damage spec is combat/carnage, because they have 100 armor penetration.

3. Shien is crap and when you are running in that stance, you're really squishy

4. No burst. Yes this spec dont have burst or decent sustainable dps, hell you cant kill heal solo

5. Dots. Dots are weak and quickly cleansed

6. Nothing to put on table. You say we have awe, but pyrotech have awe, one more stun and pull which are better. Merc got stun and knock, hybrid sorcs has flashbang shield and other precious thing, conceal operative can heal on top of stealth, ******** of cc, and insane burst, mara got party wide buffs. You cant guard in vengeance, because if you not in shien your damage is terrible.

7. Have to stack accu to be viable, while rage stack power

 

Somebody say they do 500k damage in long games, well rage can do 1mil in long match, can run in soresu and guard damage will be 5k+, attacks cant be blocked or parried, got 2 roots.

 

P.s. I really liked that spec and it is much more fun to play veng than rage(i hate it personally), but after switch rage it is out of question which is better. They need to completely redesign juggernaut trees

 

zelous leap is a 1s root so thats pretty weak as a peel. and we arent squishyier then rage at all we 1% more dmg reduction than you with the talent in our spec and we can awe 15s earleir with the same talent and our self heal gives 15% dmg reduction and unstobable gives you 20% dmg reduction rage has more stupid burst and i know it does more dmg but the things is that spec is so dumb it so easy to play and i dont enjoy it and as for killing heals umm i can kill heals like no prob cause I can master strike in unrementing and then push get unrementing again and start a new rotation on them and the ability to awe much more in games is great for peels and general cc and as for stacking acc umm what are you talking about you have to choose between surge and acc anyways so you can get 75. something precent surge and get 100% acc with 1 point into the acc talent like I would rather have less rng crap happnen then haveing like a tiny boost in crit hits like the differnce is so minimal stacking surge after 75% like 78% i think is around the cap for surge or something so ya thats not an issue and a awe is a 6 second CC not a stun which is better in alot of situation in ranked plus I can set up for my leap dps by leaping and telling the other leapers to wait a sec while they blow knockbacks into me then my team mates are free to leap with not fear of a knockback. and cleanseing any other dots other than your 31 point attack dot is useless waste of a global rage does do more dmg stupidly but veng is still viable its just not as much dps but you can still make it work and do good dps up there with everyone else honestly sweep needs to be nerfed so its not as stupidly strong dmg not alot but like 10% less dmg or so would make it better maybe a little more but no much. I can tell you i do more dmg as focus but its not fun to play for me at all and my survivabilty is way less.

Edited August 20, 2012 by BurningCourage

[TheSolidPat]

zelous leap is a 1s root so thats pretty weak as a peel. and we arent squishyier then rage at all we 1% more dmg reduction than you with the talent in our spec and we can awe 15s earleir with the same talent and our self heal gives 15% dmg reduction and unstobable gives you 20% dmg reduction rage has more stupid burst and i know it does more dmg but the things is that spec is so dumb it so easy to play and i dont enjoy it and as for killing heals umm i can kill heals like no prob cause I can master strike in unrementing and then push get unrementing again and start a new rotation on them and the ability to awe much more in games is great for peels and general cc and as for stacking acc umm what are you talking about you have to choose between surge and acc anyways so you can get 75. something precent surge and get 100% acc with 1 point into the acc talent like I would rather have less rng crap happnen then haveing like a tiny boost in crit hits like the differnce is so minimal stacking surge after 75% like 78% i think is around the cap for surge or something so ya thats not an issue and a awe is a 6 second CC not a stun which is better in alot of situation in ranked plus I can set up for my leap dps by leaping and telling the other leapers to wait a sec while they blow knockbacks into me then my team mates are free to leap with not fear of a knockback. and cleanseing any other dots other than your 31 point attack dot is useless waste of a global rage does do more dmg stupidly but veng is still viable its just not as much dps but you can still make it work and do good dps up there with everyone else honestly sweep needs to be nerfed so its not as stupidly strong dmg not alot but like 10% less dmg or so would make it better maybe a little more but no much. I can tell you i do more dmg as focus but its not fun to play for me at all and my survivabilty is way less.

 

How do you expect people to read this poorly written wall of text. I really tried sorry, but i felt the headache coming

 

Edit: I just tried again, and I cannot get passed line 3 sorry. I don't think I've ever seen a sentence with 7 lines before.

Edited August 20, 2012 by TheSolidPat

[HurricaneXXIV]

Rateds are all about the 2-3 globals and focus fire. If you are a dot class or a class that needs to be on the target 5 or 6 seconds you have issues. It's why you rarely see sorcs, lethality gs/snipers and why mara's prefer to the middle tree in rateds (and pred).

 

Force sweeping jugs/guardians and pts are top dogs in rateds. They can kill people before the healer realizes there is a target swap.

[RUDI]

Full augmented warhero vigilance guardian here, 1800 rwz rating 57-14 w/l ratio. After playing focus/vig/ and vig.def specs I've come conclusions about each spec

 

1. Focus: good for lolsweep aoe damage against bads or when stacking multiple coordinated focus knights. I personally find it gimmicky, predictable, and squishy.

 

Now comes the debate between full vigilance and vig.def hybrid.

 

Vig.def pros: 6% defense chance over full vig spec and a 10 second, 40% damage reduction every 3 minutes. You can use this ability 5 times in a full length warzone if you use it off cd every time and do not wait for optimal usage.

ful focus generation due to being stuck in soresu, and a horrible, incomplete, clunky rotationw

To me, the con of losing the ability to stance dance from shien to soresu is game breaking. As full vigilance you have a fluid rotation, 100% uptime on autocrit bs and dispatch and another ability to take ms off cd. The chnce to do 4 masterstrikes in 30 seconds is amazing. With unremitting someone needs near perfect timing to avoid the last hit. Even*avoid it they are forced to use a defensive cooldown, potentially 4 if they even have that

 

Imo I perform best as full vigilance. Granted, my first priority is playing support like a def.vig hybrid but when you can tell your team isn't feeling much pressure, switching to shien can help you clean up quickly and ready your team for a shift.

 

Also, s I wear tanking offpiecea like relics, earpiece and implant for ball carrying and defending on voidstar or ce.

 

Hi mate, don't want to argue with you. I didnt say it can't work if you play right, but why I would take vigilance guardian instead of sniper(engineer) who have insane defensive cd, insane utility, really really good damage, or say combat or even better hybrid of combat/watchman with dots and 100% armor penetration. If i need dedicated ball carrier hybrid is better...

 

Who needs 4 master strikes in 30 seconds if you can't burst somebody down. Hybrid mara is godlike in that situation and on top of that he can give party wide buffs. Any good rwz team will take such type of mara over vigi/veng jug anytime. And mara has better defensive cds than vigi jug...sorry, but it is true.

 

EDIT: I am not sure you can make 4 ms in 30sec...3 agree.

 

You said smasher build is predictable agree of course, can it be shut down yes, but with a good healers it is not a problem...

 

About rotation agree they are more elegant and as i said I like vigi/veng more, but the weapon damage source and cleanse made me respec. The biggest problem of veng/vigi is weapon source, so you need to have about 105+ accuracy, which somehow hard to achieve...and as rage juggernaut smash counter, people know that it is better to stop master strike... it is really hard to have 3 hits nowadays.

 

BurningCourage, I wont read that ****. Learn punctuation and formatting please.

Edited August 20, 2012 by RUDI

[Cappadin]

A vig guardian can perform very useful delays much better than any other class in the game and mcuh longer than focus spec and retain dps options afterwards compared to defense spec. For instance, a guardian can slow an entire team trying tshift to defend their other node/door. This is why you take one opposed to another pure dps class or focus spec. With proper use of leap/stasis/awe/push you can corral the entire opposing teams defenders that are trying to shift for our ape slow. Yes a focus guardian can do this too but vig can do it much longer before going down and again, retain the option to put out good focus fire damage later in the match unlike defense.

 

Stupid phone makes it hard to edit so sorry for errors.

 

Edit: after the first masterstroke you can have an instant proc if you follow it with os or pb. All masterstrikes after this require 9 seconds to allow for proc again meaning after the first two, you could get two more in 18 seconds. So really you could have 3 in like 15 seconds with back to hack procs.

Edited August 20, 2012 by Cappadin

[justintong]

I have made a video how vigilance guardian (vegeance juggs) is performing in pvp

I am full warhero+augmented, only the offhand is still battlemaster, all the opponents in the game were warhero/battlemaster geared.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PivMGoWKihQ&feature=youtu.be

[RUDI]

Edit: after the first masterstroke you can have an instant proc if you follow it with os or pb. All masterstrikes after this require 9 seconds to allow for proc again meaning after the first two, you could get two more in 18 seconds. So really you could have 3 in like 15 seconds with back to hack procs.

You know what the main part in your reply is you "CAN", but it is possible that it "DONT" proc and you wont have 3-4 ms. 30% is not 100% you know? Sometimes it didnt proc for me after 2 impales and shatter... it is really not reliable, i would trade that for 100% armor penetration anyday.

 

 

I have made a video how vigilance guardian (vegeance juggs) is performing in pvp

I am full warhero+augmented, only the offhand is still battlemaster, all the opponents in the game were warhero/battlemaster geared.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PivMGoWKihQ&feature=youtu.be

After I saw enemy healer on min 4 I stopped watching...these are bad.

Edited August 21, 2012 by RUDI

[justintong]

against organised and good rated teams, focus guardian or rage jugs are not good imo because the opponents will SPREAD OUT.

The smash or sweep against FULL WH players can only do a maximum damage of 6500 (highest i have seen is 5.9k for a smash, show me a pic or video if you can do more than that.) or less since no more adrenal and relic pops.

 

Given that focus or rage spec needs to build up focus/rage SLOWLY to execute bursting abilities, the opponents would have their health's topped up by then.

 

In contrast, vigilance/vegeance spec basically has unlimited focus/rage to use and keep up the constant damage on opponents.

 

Vig/veg spec has a much greater survivability too - 4% additional damage reduciton at all times + activating focused defense grants 15% damage reduction which acts like a mini Saber Ward.

 

Think in a simple way, would you want to do 15k dmg every ~12seconds with focus/rage spec (from building up focus/rage to executing your bursting abilities) or doing ~3-4k damage every second with vig/veg spec (virtually unlimited focus/rage to expense thus you can keep using attack abilities)?

 

Well in the end it is a personal choice, some people like focus/rage spec, some people like vig/veg spec, choose the one that suits you

Edited August 21, 2012 by justintong

[TheSolidPat]

against organised and good rated teams, focus guardian or rage jugs are not good imo because the opponents will SPREAD OUT.

The smash or sweep against FULL WH players can only do a maximum damage of 6500 (highest i have seen is 5.9k for a smash, show me a pic or video if you can do more than that.) or less since no more adrenal and relic pops.

 

Given that focus or rage spec needs to build up focus/rage SLOWLY to execute bursting abilities, the opponents would have their health's topped up by then.

 

In contrast, vigilance/vegeance spec basically has unlimited focus/rage to use and keep up the constant damage on opponents.

 

Vig/veg spec has a much greater survivability too - 4% additional damage reduciton at all times + activating focused defense grants 15% damage reduction which acts like a mini Saber Ward.

 

Think in a simple way, would you want to do 15k dmg every ~12seconds with focus/rage spec (from building up focus/rage to executing your bursting abilities) or doing ~3-4k damage every second with vig/veg spec (virtually unlimited focus/rage to expense thus you can keep using attack abilities)?

 

Well in the end it is a personal choice, some people like focus/rage spec, some people like vig/veg spec, choose the one that suits you

 

1- About your spread out argument. It doesn't take away the burst capabilities. Whether it is single target or multi target, the burst stays the same. In ranked we focus fire and i find myself often smashing on single targets. It doesn't remove the fact that it is still the most bursty spec in the game and that the enemy target will die within globals. I have done ranked games with over 400k damage single target while defending the node 2 (us) vs 3 (them). The AOE capabilities when node guarding are very limited.

 

2- Highest Smash you have seen is 5.9k in rated... LOL play more often? Every night i always hit suckers over 6.5k in rated.In reg WZ i still see 8k Smash, and every night i also pop a 7.5k.

 

3- your comment: Given that focus or rage spec needs to build up focus/rage SLOWLY to execute bursting abilities, the opponents would have their health's topped up by then.

 

Hmm i think you are confused with Vengeance there... When we call a target and we focus on him, he is dead after 2-3 globals from our dps. Again this leads me to think you don't do rated.

 

4- About constant damage... Have you not played wow arenas before? If you have 10k damage done as burst it is about equal to 20k done with dot/sustained damage. So you would need to do at least twice the amount of damage at least to become a threat, which you don't.

 

5- 3k-4k damage every seconds... lol.

 

Lets say you are attacking 10 mins in a WZ with your lowest 3k/second u are looking at 1 800 000 done in WZ. Seriously stop pulling out random numbers.

 

No wonder so many people are bad at this game. They come on these forums and read up on bad posts from bad people.

Edited August 21, 2012 by TheSolidPat

[_Zorth_]

no, vengeance is the worst melee DPS spec in the game for pvp, can some good players make it work? sure, but those players would get much better numbers if they rerolled..

 

Oh rly?

 

Please cut the BS since you've obviously never played the Veng spec. I do good constistently in veng and can be a great objective player to or a deadly slayer. Hutbal is my favorite game mode and rarely loose and can easily get games like I just showed.

 

Is rage better than veng?

Depends if you wanna hurt big groups of people or kill healers. If you are gonna run around and single target with Rage then you might as well go veng since it's more forgiving, but veng is no way near the worst spec m8.

Edited August 21, 2012 by _Zorth_

[TheSolidPat]

That guy you just quoted said it was the worst melee spec in the game. If it is not the worst melee spec, which spec is it then? Certainly not any Marauder specs, certainly not the Nerf OP melee spec. There isn't many Melee spec left... Edited August 21, 2012 by TheSolidPat

[anythingnottaken]

Vengeance + Soresu is the single hardest spec to kill in this game. It is more tanky than tank spec and arguably does more damage.

 

I can full confirm the validity of this statement, I run in soresu form with vengeance spec and can easily do as much dps as a marauder plus I have more survivability and my favorite force push

[anythingnottaken]

no, vengeance is the worst melee DPS spec in the game for pvp, can some good players make it work? sure, but those players would get much better numbers if they rerolled.

 

in case you wondered arsenal is the worst ranged dps spec for pvp, a few interrupts will make you completely useless

 

Under no circumstances would I have a pure vengeance juggernaut on my team, their is absolutely no reason to bring one over a sniper, marauder, a pyrotech(merc or powertech), so I would not take one unless absolutely necessary.

 

Seeing as you don't know how a class works I doubt anyone would want to be in your so called team

[RUDI]

Oh rly?

 

Please cut the BS since you've obviously never played the Veng spec. I do good constistently in veng and can be a great objective player to or a deadly slayer. Hutbal is my favorite game mode and rarely loose and can easily get games like I just showed.

 

Is rage better than veng?

Depends if you wanna hurt big groups of people or kill healers. If you are gonna run around and single target with Rage then you might as well go veng since it's more forgiving, but veng is no way near the worst spec m8.

Oh, look at screen...

1. it is not rated warzone, regular against pug

2. your 400k damage in hutball with 6:0 means they're undergeared, you died much less then they, you had a lot of time to damage. In my regular hutball i can have from 20k to 200k damage, because I dont care about killing enemies the main task is to score. And when I win 6:0 in most cases the biggest damage is about 90-100k.

 

Quote: Originally Posted by JackNader

Vengeance + Soresu is the single hardest spec to kill in this game. It is more tanky than tank spec and arguably does more damage.

NO! Hardest to "Kill" is a) operative healer(stealth, almost impossible to kill solo when he geared 20k+hp, lots of cc, vanish) then other operatives...

b) vanguard/pt full tank takes a while to kill them

c) hybrid vengeance/defense

d) assassin

e) marauder

f) maybe jug in soresu? And what is the point of going soresu in vengeance, you will be rage starved.

 

justintong, ~3-4k damage every second Maybe against lvl 10mob GCD is 1.5sec for juggernaut. The most geared dps against not moving/countering "PVE"(which is not affected by expertise) targets can reach 1800 damage per second, but more is really really hard. Please dont write ********, it makes you look like noob, who don't even played this game. Maybe you don't know how much your "WEAPON" damage is cut, because of armor? and it is often parried, blocked?

Edited August 21, 2012 by RUDI

[Wrothag]

facts:

 

vengeance is viable for rateds

its one of the most unkillable specs in the game

1v1 only marauders and hybrid sins considered as a threat (yes, pyropts fear us)

sure we cant burst down healers fast enough, there are other scenarios where we shine

ragenoobs will never outdps us singletarget

we have enough rage even in soresu

while rage guys spam forums how awesome they are, we are laughing over their dead bodies ingame

the funfactor of playing a vengeance jugg is insane

 

edit: forgot one important thing. to get the most out of the spec, you need 2 sets of gear, both vindicator and war leader

Edited August 21, 2012 by Wrothag

[RUDI]

facts:

 

vengeance is viable for rateds

its one of the most unkillable specs in the game

1v1 only marauders and hybrid sins considered as a threat (yes, pyropts fear us)

sure we cant burst down healers fast enough, there are other scenarios where we shine

ragenoobs will never outdps us singletarget

we have enough rage even in soresu

while rage guys spam forums how awesome they are, we are laughing over their dead bodies ingame

the funfactor of playing a vengeance jugg is insane

 

edit: forgot one important thing. to get the most out of the spec, you need 2 sets of gear, both vindicator and war leader

1) it can make the job done, but other can do it better. Why take something worst when there are better choices?

2) no, but it is more durable than sorc!

3) good pyropt will own and kite veng jug

4) yeah hutball, but hybrid of veng/defense is better than full veng

5) but they have much better burst, anyway who needs dps if you cant kill target?

6) well no, rage can, vengeance no

7) ok.

8) about fun factor 100% agree, but it is not viable.

Edited August 21, 2012 by RUDI

[VoidJustice]

facts:

 

vengeance is viable for rateds

its one of the most unkillable specs in the game

1v1 only marauders and hybrid sins considered as a threat (yes, pyropts fear us)

sure we cant burst down healers fast enough, there are other scenarios where we shine

ragenoobs will never outdps us singletarget

we have enough rage even in soresu

while rage guys spam forums how awesome they are, we are laughing over their dead bodies ingame

the funfactor of playing a vengeance jugg is insane

 

edit: forgot one important thing. to get the most out of the spec, you need 2 sets of gear, both vindicator and war leader

 

As a vigilance guardian I'd agree with this post, accept I play other classes also.

Vigilance is seriously UP and even if it wasn't, at this point the community conclusion/perception

is clear. Vigilance Jedi are 3rd or 4th or even last choice for a rated team. If you got on one you have

recieved "mercy" and the reality of any meager dps numbers you put up are more a feather in the cap of the insane

talents of your healers than any testiment to your skill.

 

p.s. I continue to play Vig, and stay in pugs as not to hurt my friends teams.

Edited August 21, 2012 by VoidJustice

[AKfourtyseven]

f) maybe jug in soresu? And what is the point of going soresu in vengeance, you will be rage starved.

 

 

I read this alot. Its simple not true. I ran Vig in Soresu for ages and was never, ever focus starved. Why? Idiots were constantly giving me free focus by trying to CC while i was immune and leaping around the battlefield. That in addition to the free focus proc from masterstrike and honestly, Vig/Veng generates so much focus that it can fuel being in Soresu easily.

 

Edit: Imho, the key to making Vig/Veng work is having your gear set up so that you can take advantage of your crits (i.e you need to be sitting on 1050-1100 base damage). The DoTs arent going to kill anyone, but that guaranteed 5k dispatch and bladestorm will. Hybrid is still better pound for pound, but if you min/max gear? Full Vig/Veng is still nice.

Edited August 21, 2012 by AKfourtyseven

[anythingnottaken]

As a vigilance guardian I'd agree with this post, accept I play other classes also.

Vigilance is seriously UP and even if it wasn't, at this point the community conclusion/perception

is clear. Vigilance Jedi are 3rd or 4th or even last choice for a rated team. If you got on one you have

recieved "mercy" and the reality of any meager dps numbers you put up are more a feather in the cap of the insane

talents of your healers than any testiment to your skill.

 

p.s. I continue to play Vig, and stay in pugs as not to hurt my friends teams.

 

 

I would say it depends more on the team composition, if the team has a mobile healer like an operative who is constantly refreshing kolto probes on the teamates then along with the defensive CD's and the set bonus for intercede, juggs in soresu are pretty much immortal and very hard to kill, if 3 players focus on me I can stand for a while and in the same situation a sentinel or a marauder will melt away.

 

Sentinel/Marauder are really overpowered when combined with a pocket healer, as they can get 99% reduction for 6 seconds and the healer can bring them up to full health in that time but then again all the classes can be overpowered if there is a good healer backing them up.

 

For me for 1v1 I will always choose my Jugg or SS gunslinger over my sentinel, they can do the same job and have much better survivability than sentinel/marauder

[Wrothag]

1) it can make the job done, but other can do it better. Why take something worst when there are better choices?

2) no, but it is more durable than sorc!

3) good pyropt will own and kite veng jug

4) yeah hutball, but hybrid of veng/defense is better than full veng

5) but they have much better burst, anyway who needs dps if you cant kill target?

6) well no, rage can, vengeance no

7) ok.

8) about fun factor 100% agree, but it is not viable.

 

you clearly have no clue

 

2 - is more durable than almost anything else. (just a few bonus compared to rage: basic +4% dmg reduction. +20% with unstoppable. +15% with enraged defense for 10sec every 45sec). also dont forget, when need the tankyness, a smart venge guy is in def gear. 24k+ health with 1250exp war leader gear combined with the bonuses mentioned above... yes its more durable than a sorc, thats right )

 

3 - thats simple not true. they cant kite with unstoppable up, and we have slows and ccs. they are one of the most squishy heavy armored guys, playing smart the pyro cant win (ofc you dont have to be smart, just use your spells).

 

4 - huttball. a tank geared vengeance juggernaut is more then enough to fill the role as a ballhandler. when the other team has the ball, as vengeance you are less useless than a hybrid as you have noticable dmg output

 

5 - cant kill target? sure we can. some of them even easier for us than for rage. killing healers isnt for us, thats all. (annoying them, keeping them busy, forcing them to selfheal only etc is ok tho)

 

6 - as i said, you have absolutely no clue about us

[TheSolidPat]

you clearly have no clue

 

2 - is more durable than almost anything else. (just a few bonus compared to rage: basic +4% dmg reduction. +20% with unstoppable. +15% with enraged defense for 10sec every 45sec). also dont forget, when need the tankyness, a smart venge guy is in def gear. 24k+ health with 1250exp war leader gear combined with the bonuses mentioned above... yes its more durable than a sorc, thats right )

 

3 - thats simple not true. they cant kite with unstoppable up, and we have slows and ccs. they are one of the most squishy heavy armored guys, playing smart the pyro cant win (ofc you dont have to be smart, just use your spells).

 

4 - huttball. a tank geared vengeance juggernaut is more then enough to fill the role as a ballhandler. when the other team has the ball, as vengeance you are less useless than a hybrid as you have noticable dmg output

 

5 - cant kill target? sure we can. some of them even easier for us than for rage. killing healers isnt for us, thats all. (annoying them, keeping them busy, forcing them to selfheal only etc is ok tho)

 

6 - as i said, you have absolutely no clue about us

 

You keep saying Rudi has no clue. But in all of your post you are not even able to differentiate Full Vengeance (which is what the topic is about) and Hybrid (tanking role) which you seem to defend.

 

I really which i could take what you write seriously. But I can't. I estimate your gear to be mostly in Battlemaster given what you are saying. Maybe we need a system like arenajunkies, where 2k+ rated is needed to post. It would filter all this crap.

 

I've played with and against the best pvp guilds on my server, and THERE IS NOT A SINGLE FULL RAGE JUGG IN THE TEAMS. Put it through your heads. It is a god damn PVE spec. But on the other hand you will have 2 rage Juggs, 2 PT 1 Mara + 1 more.

 

With our team setup, even if we decide to focus down a tank, he will die within 2-3 globals. Stop saying Full Vengeance has better survivability, because in the rated game you don't even notice it. The thing that matters the most is how much pressure you can apply while maintaining superior positioning. It was the same thing in WOW arenas that we simply replicate here in TOR which is a lot more forgiving.

 

Now I understand why Rudi gets frustrated having to debate this topic with people that probably never queued a single rated game

[Wrothag]

You keep saying Rudi has no clue. But in all of your post you are not even able to differentiate Full Vengeance (which is what the topic is about) and Hybrid (tanking role) which you seem to defend.

 

I really which i could take what you write seriously. But I can't. I estimate your gear to be mostly in Battlemaster given what you are saying. Maybe we need a system like arenajunkies, where 2k+ rated is needed to post. It would filter all this crap.

 

I've played with and against the best pvp guilds on my server, and THERE IS NOT A SINGLE FULL RAGE JUGG IN THE TEAMS. Put it through your heads. It is a gosh darn PVE spec. But on the other hand you will have 2 rage Juggs, 2 PT 1 Mara + 1 more.

 

With our team setup, even if we decide to focus down a tank, he will die within 2-3 globals. Stop saying Full Vengeance has better survivability, because in the rated game you don't even notice it. The thing that matters the most is how much pressure you can apply while maintaining superior positioning. It was the same thing in WOW arenas that we simply replicate here in TOR which is a lot more forgiving.

 

Now I understand why Rudi gets frustrated having to debate this topic with people that probably never queued a single rated game

 

i only have 4 points in immortal, hybrids dont have the +15% from enraged def. nor the +4% from the same talent (full immortals -not the hybrids- has a +4% for elemental/internal tho)

 

another proof of your cluelessness, my gear is full augmented + optimized wh vindicator and a set of full augmented (need 3 more enhancement for full optimisation) wh war leader combined with a few high-endurance bm pieces. (oh and first time i got to the worth-nothing 2k was in S1.... go look up my hero title too if you really want proof of my experience in ranked games)

 

you RAGE too much, chill a bit

 

sure i only have a bit less than 120 ranked games played due to the facts a)my gear is full, b)ratings are for the kids, c)i wont roll rage/hybrids just because some clueless guys says so d)i dont even have time to play at the evenings/nights.

these games also include matches with 2k+ players or even against 2k+ teams.

 

bit off topic, but getting vanilla rank14, winning arena tournaments in classic, getting 2.2k+ in the first two seasons without even caring, playing warzones and sieges in AoC as a member of the server's best pvp guild, then 2.5k in wow rbg also backs up my knowledge to be able to decide what is good for a ranked/rated team and whats not.

 

have a good day