Hitting 50 makes me want to quit

[Bluecapsule]

So according to the OP and many others there should be no reward for me having sat through hours of war zones and put in the effort over someone who has just hit 50?

By the same token I should therefore expect to be handed a set of gear at 50 for PVE so I can go on HM ops right away? Oh whats that? No I can't? I have to grind dailies for gear, columi, rakata etc or else groups won't take me. Well how about that...

 

The reason people in war hero gear do well is because they put in the time to get it. You say it takes no effort to get it at the same time you complain about being stomped in war zones. Well guess what, those same war hero players got stomped but they didn't come on a forum to whine, they stuck at it and got the rewards.

 

Has anyone also considered that being undergeared and fighting higher geared players is a fantastic way of improving your skill in pvp? It literally forces you to scramble to stay alive. If everyone was handed gear with little to no effort to achieve it, the zones would be full of inexperienced pvpers and I guarantee you would be on here complaining about how the teams you are in are full of idiots.

 

In short, you are given a set of recruit gear, it's not that hard to get battlemaster and be competitive and then just put in the effort and get war hero and enjoy the fruits of your labour. There is nothing unfair about a system that rewards effort, we all live in it!

 

 

I think this is the exact problem of the game. " there should be no reward for me having sat through hours of war zones and put in the effort over someone who has just hit 50? "

 

Shouldn't, I don't know, getting BETTER at the game be reward enough? And if it's not, then there's a problem with the game design. OP's complaint is that skill flat out doesn't matter for new 50s. You just have to keep grinding over and over again until you get better equipment. It's not fun for the majority of people who would rather be rewarded for being good at the game.

 

 

 

edit: just to compare how pvp works in other successful games (not necessarily MMOs):

 

League of Legends - grinding gives runes that produces small stat boosts, though a skilled player w/o runes will beat an unskilled player with runes every single time.

 

Dota 2 - grinding gives no in-game advantage.

 

Guild Wars 1/2 - all players have easy access to the "best" pvp gear with minimal grind.

Edited August 10, 2012 by Bluecapsule

[Ianosm]

I guess you either missed or chose to ignore my point that, in my opinion, competing against better geared players is the best way of improving your skill and becoming better at the game. The old expression 'thrown in at the deep end' applies, there will be some who just don't like it but those who keep at it will emerge as much better players with a greater appreciation for both gear and pvp awareness.

 

Look it's going to be hard for us to see eye to eye on this, I respect what you are saying and I agree that it's very frustrating to be a good player but to see yourself as not having the gear to compete. What I will say is that the end result, having worked and suffered through it is far more satisfying then if everyone was given it right away.

 

Different strokes for different folks etc

[Frumyrfrenzy]

I agree with the threadstarter. I came back after a few months only to find that PvP at 50 just isn't enjoyable anymore. The itemgap is way too big. I tried for a few weeks, got almost all battlemaster items, and realized how incredibly long it would take me to get a single piece of war hero armor, let alone a set. And you need some pieces if you do not want to be ripped apart in a few seconds by one or two guys. There is no fun getting there and it's way too long walking that no fun road.

On the other side, with every alt I have and who participates in the 10-49 bracket I feel more powerful and everything seems way more balanced. But if you are new at 50 or came back, there is no fun in it for you for a very long time. This is why I burnt out and stopped PvP with my 50s after a few weeks of trying really hard.

[belizar]

I guess you either missed or chose to ignore my point that, in my opinion, competing against better geared players is the best way of improving your skill

 

so freshly dinged 50 vs full pvp geard 50 and the newbi is meant to learn from that is ?

[Bluecapsule]

I guess you either missed or chose to ignore my point that, in my opinion, competing against better geared players is the best way of improving your skill and becoming better at the game. The old expression 'thrown in at the deep end' applies, there will be some who just don't like it but those who keep at it will emerge as much better players with a greater appreciation for both gear and pvp awareness.

 

Look it's going to be hard for us to see eye to eye on this, I respect what you are saying and I agree that it's very frustrating to be a good player but to see yourself as not having the gear to compete. What I will say is that the end result, having worked and suffered through it is far more satisfying then if everyone was given it right away.

 

Different strokes for different folks etc

 

I do see your point, but I think the OP's point is that the gap that the gear provides is too big, which is a balancing issue that can be fixed. I don't play pvp in Swtor because I know it's not for me (not enough patience/desire to gear up).

I'm glad that you (and many others no doubt) enjoy this type of gameplay, but if there's not enough people willing to grind it out then Swtor will die as people leave and switch to other games.

[Kaonis]

I guess you either missed or chose to ignore my point that, in my opinion, competing against better geared players is the best way of improving your skill and becoming better at the game. The old expression 'thrown in at the deep end' applies, there will be some who just don't like it but those who keep at it will emerge as much better players with a greater appreciation for both gear and pvp awareness.

 

Look it's going to be hard for us to see eye to eye on this, I respect what you are saying and I agree that it's very frustrating to be a good player but to see yourself as not having the gear to compete. What I will say is that the end result, having worked and suffered through it is far more satisfying then if everyone was given it right away.

 

Different strokes for different folks etc

 

See, it's hard to learn how to be better when you can know how to play your class perfectly, yet beat on a guy with full war hero and literally watch their health barely dent, while they smack you a few times and you die. There's hardly a learning curve here when the difference in gear makes it literally impossible to kill someone, the way PVP is set up presently, it's not skill based AT ALL. It's 100% gear based. Now if you have the same level of gear then it becomes skill based again. But with a little thing known as numbers, the guy with the higher numbers will be unfairly stronger and skill means jack **** when your hitting him for a few hundred, and he's smacking you for a few k.

[Ianosm]

Well sorry to be obvious but he's hitting you for a few k because he's likely spent months grinding zones and gathering gear (while being hit like you by other players). So yes as far as I am concerned he should be rewarded.

 

I would put it to you like this, as a sage, on an equal gear level there are certain classes that can crush me with almost no skill required. It's simply class balance and I accept it. Now if you kept equal gear for all, that would constantly happen and there wouldn't be much I or indeed any other class in the same situation could do.

 

Now given that I have spent months grinding, and bein stomped, I have some war hero gear and that means that if I come across those same classes but they have recruit/battlemaster then my chances of surviving are increased.

In addition to this, those months of me playing against these classes and better geared people has sharpened my skills so I am more competitive with equally geared people.

 

I just don't see that happening if you give everyone the same gear automatically at 50 and rely on skill alone. As you all know there are people who are and always will be better skilled than others just naturally, that happens in every walk of life. Equal gear would mean that say 60-70% of players would be stomped by the other 40-30% who are either of the class type or skill level that you just can't beat.

 

At least with the way it is now, someone who has decent gear but is lacking skill can survive against a skilled low geared player. The balance now swings so that there's 60-70% of people surviving long enough to enjoy it and progress.

 

It's not ideal and it can be frustrating, but I think it's fair.

[Kashley]

Has anyone also considered that being undergeared and fighting higher geared players is a fantastic way of improving your skill in pvp? It literally forces you to scramble to stay alive. If everyone was handed gear with little to no effort to achieve it, the zones would be full of inexperienced pvpers and I guarantee you would be on here complaining about how the teams you are in are full of idiots.

 

This is by far the worst argument I have ever heard. Ever. Getting beat down by people better geared then you teaches players nothing except how to manage nerd rage.

 

Fact: I know people who had 2500 ratings in arenas on WoW who are, in fact, skilled players. The gear desparity between a WH geared player versus a Recruit geared player taught them nothing. In fact it just pissed them off that they had to be cannon fodder as long as they were.

 

Now, what exactly is that kind of player suppose to learn? Do tell... Because frankly it just pissed them off that their skill playing meant NOTHING, while they got rick rolled by people who didnt know how to kite, LoS, and face ate melee attacks just because they could.

 

This logic means NOTHING. In the grind from 1-50 that is when you learn how to play your character for survival. Not because of a gear desparity created entirely by BioWare because cross server "doesn't promote community' and lack of planning prior to implimentation of a PvP stat. (Which I hate FYI, PvP should be about skill, not about who spends more time grinding in game.)

[Bloodsoak]

TL;DR: Change the objectives in warzones. Add new ways to win the match. Add new non-combat roles that are necessary to perform in order to win the match in that fashion, so that non-geared players can focus on winning the match a way that doesn't require they meet the enemy head on only to get steamrolled by the overgeared players.

 

I think they need to change the Warzone environments and objectives, so that a fresh 50 can focus on using that to do their part. Like if they added vehicles or mounted weapons you could get into and light up the field. Or an objective that almost completely takes the player out of the fight, but does something else important. Let's say the objective was to fly a transport from either end of the field delivering ammo for these mounted guns. But at the same time you needed someone to load the transport with the ammo crates and someone on the other end to reload the mounted weapon for you.

 

Now you just added 4 unique roles in that warzone which are necessary for winning, but have nothing to do with a player's gear. WoW sort of does this with one of their battlegrounds, where you need to go get the catapult and drive it to the opposing faction's base then use it to destroy one of their walls so other players can get into the base. But at the same time, if that catapult keeps getting destroyed before it can take out the wall, the players can resort to jumping on to the airship and parachuting into the base.

 

All I am saying is make multiple ways to win a match. And have those multiple ways include objective roles which don't rely on gear. You will still have players who want to jump into the thick of it and dps deathmatch each other the entire game, which can win them the match if the other side does the same and is outgeared. Or it can lose them the match if that side sees they are outgeared and resorts to other tactics (like flying the transport to deliver ammo or manning a mounted gun up on a ridge or even be the one carrying the ammo and reloading these guns). Maybe even have someone who needs to find the necessary parts to repair the transport in order for another player to fly it.

 

Right now there is only one way to win a warzone, and that is by beating the other team into the ground and capturing the base in that area by clicking on it unopposed for long enough. That is massively boring. Winning a match really comes down to the first minute of the game, as to whether or not you sent enough players to the right areas. Once a team captures two nodes, as long as they defend they win. Therefore the game's outcome was determined within the first minute of the game and there is no hope of turning things around. That is why you see so many people quit a match so early on.

Edited August 10, 2012 by Bloodsoak

[Holden_Dissent]

I didn't realize how big the difference in gear really made until last week. I'm out trying to finish out some quests that I didn't know existed in the lvl 45-50 zones of Belsavis or somewhere. I ride by a lvl 50 and he hits me as I'm riding by. I lost about 1/4 of health in my recruit gear. So, I drive just out of site, get off my mount, heal up in anticipation of going back and owning this guy. We both had the same idea and meet halfway. Before I can CC his companion I died. 3 hits by this guy. Incredible.

[Jnight]

I don't PvP in MMOs exactly for these reasons. It always seems to be about pitting vastly out geared people against those who can mop the floor with them without breaking a sweat. Its a race to the top to get the gear before your opponent instead of a battle of skill which is what PvP should be.

 

There's nothing wrong with expertise. If they made expertise more available to new PvPers and only have marginal upgrades for more progressed PvPers so that things were more fair and balanced and more about skill then it would be better, but then you'd have people crying as to why they put so much time in for PvP gear but they can no longer just face roll to victory.

 

As you progress you should get slightly more expertise, but not a night and day difference.

[kiddynomite]

Dont sweat it, hitting 50 made close to a million people quit this ****** game.

[bsbrad]

The main problem with this game is the gear grind, the BM and WH armor should just be different skins and before the PVP leet players complain that then PVE Ops armor would be too powerful I believe Tionese, Rakata, BH and Campaign gear should also be just skins of the max PVE armor

 

This would make the entire game about skill, if they need to adjust the difficulty of OPs to accomodate for the loss of stats in PVE OP armor then so be it.

 

The game should have a max armor setting at lvl 50 and not the **** that they have now.

 

Obviously the skilled players in both PVE and PVP will still rule but so be it, that is what the game is about. Have gear > skill just allows ppl who have more time to grind in both PVE and PVP become king of the hill.

 

Other MMOs have tried this approach before, Guild Wars for instance had a relatively quick way of getting to max level and then it became about who was the most skilled in PVE and PVP. Their issue was the amount of skills and the impossible balancing act between the skills they had to perform.

 

SW:TOR has turned into two seperate games at 50, those who PVP and those that run OPs/FPs, both games have limited content and unfortunately the way it is set up right now both sides of the game require gear > skill.

 

Adding a PVP stat to appease the PVP players who didn't like getting beat by the OP tiered PVE players was a mistake and it would have been better to just cap the armor levels and only show cosmetic differences between the PVP and PVE players.

 

Anyway my 2c, I am sure I will get flamed by the grinders for saying this....

[Technohic]

There is only so much people will want to play for just looks alone. There should be end game gear progression; it just may be too big of a gap right now. Still; you pay your dues and eventually it will pay off. I don't see a point in quitting over it.

[bsbrad]

There is only so much people will want to play for just looks alone. There should be end game gear progression; it just may be too big of a gap right now. Still; you pay your dues and eventually it will pay off. I don't see a point in quitting over it.

 

So it looks like there are two camps in this debate then:

 

- Gear Grind

 

If I play 20000 more hours I will be awarded the talent called, "Kill anyone with one press of a button" or "Indestructable mode, nobody can kill me, lol, I am a leet player" or "Press button to kill NM Karraga"

 

- Skill based

 

I am playing the game for fun and to have a challenge against equally spec'd ppl and doing PVE for the story

 

If you want a reward for all the grinding will two cookies do <-- Sorry for being facetious

[Technohic]

So it looks like there are two camps in this debate then:

 

- Gear Grind

 

If I play 20000 more hours I will be awarded the talent called, "Kill anyone with one press of a button" or "Indestructable mode, nobody can kill me, lol, I am a leet player" or "Press button to kill NM Karraga"

 

- Skill based

 

I am playing the game for fun and to have a challenge against equally spec'd ppl and doing PVE for the story

 

If you want a reward for all the grinding will two cookies do <-- Sorry for being facetious

 

Basically, yes. 2 extremes with very few in between. It's like politics these days.

[Bloodsoak]

IDEA: Change the objectives in warzones. Add new ways to win the match. Add new non-combat roles that are necessary to perform in order to win the match in that fashion, so that non-geared players can focus on winning the match a way that doesn't require they meet the enemy head on only to get steamrolled by the overgeared players.

[bsbrad]

Basically, yes. 2 extremes with very few in between. It's like politics these days.

 

I agree and as in politics there will always be ppl who will be arguing both extremes unwilling too comprimise. Personally I prefer a skill game but I do see why ppl like to feel a sense of accomplishment in their gear. I personally do have multiple lvl 50s where some are geared out for PVP and others for OPs, I just see the point of the original poster in that for fresh 50s it is definitely gear > skill. As I stated before even in OPs it is gear > content when is should be skill/tactics > content

 

Maybe the only way this will be settled is by having a capped PVP WZ where stats are normalized according to balancing rules, but you will have to queue specifically for that WZ. However, this will further dilute the PVP players which are already compaining about how long it takes to pop a WZ queue since rated WZs have been introduced and the fact that a lot of fresh 50s refuse to PVP due to the gear disparity.

 

Oh well considering this, I dont believe the game will change anytime soon and until some other game comes out that is closer to what my ideal MMO is, I will continue to play.

[Ianosm]

This is by far the worst argument I have ever heard. Ever. Getting beat down by people better geared then you teaches players nothing except how to manage nerd rage

 

Interesting, and up to this point I had resisted calling anyones points or arguments the 'worst' out of respect for people having different opinions. Variety being the spice of life and all that.

 

I will try and answer your superior opinion as best I can, forgive me if it is not up to your high standards.

 

Coaches in many, if not all sports (including mine), will tell you that practice against the best is always the most beneficial way to train. As I did in my sport, I trained against the best at the time and sure I got completely murdered for months but eventually, through adapting and analysing I learned how they operated and so my talents increased accordingly.

 

This, in my opinion, is no different to how things work in the game. By competing with players who are way above me in gear and skill etc, I learn what to do, who to avoid and who to confront.

 

To take your system in my training, I would compete against people of equal level for months and then get murdered by the first skilled person I come across. At least under the system that is in place now, the majority will have picked up enough skill/gear to survive or be competitive,

 

As a final point, your arguments about equal gear and only skill would stand up if SWTOR was the only game to have the system. I suppose next you will argue that even first person shooters like COD: Black Ops has a fair multiplayer system that requires no grind? So I can play the single player campaign, jump right into multiplayer pvp and be competitive? No I need to grind for better perks/weapons/gear while all the time being murdered by players who are prestiged 50000 etc....

 

And thats a single player.....MMORPGS are designed by nature to be LONG term.....but that is apparently too long....

[bsbrad]

IDEA: Change the objectives in warzones. Add new ways to win the match. Add new non-combat roles that are necessary to perform in order to win the match in that fashion, so that non-geared players can focus on winning the match a way that doesn't require they meet the enemy head on only to get steamrolled by the overgeared players.

 

In Huttball, it isn't about killing the other faction more about passing the ball to the endzone the only issue with this is top-tiered PVP players will steamroll the ball carrier before he can even throw the ball. Interresting idea make it so the ball carrier cannot move, but is immune to stuns/CC and therefore has to pass the ball (possibly take 50% dmg to stop the top-tiered players from ganking him). This would make it more interesting to be the ball carrier, instead of having sins/shadows rush the ball or mar/sents leap to the endzone all the time.

 

Of course the other 3 WZs are more about defending an area and have no objectives that lend themselves to lower tiered players as a recruit PVP player cannot defend long against a WH PVP player.

 

Also non-combat roles are usually, heal, protect or gather X, Y, Z resources (a la Fort Aspenwood in Guild Wars) unfortunately this usually means healers and ppl with speed boosts are at a greater advantage. The best PVP tank in the world as a fresh 50 would have no role to play in a WZ against WH PVP players and might as well quit the WZ.

[Jnight]

If you want a reward for all the grinding will two cookies do

Broke. Traveling the Galaxy trying to get back home. Will grind for Cookies.

 

Heh that almost sounds dirty

[Kashley]

Interesting, and up to this point I had resisted calling anyones points or arguments the 'worst' out of respect for people having different opinions. Variety being the spice of life and all that.

 

I will try and answer your superior opinion as best I can, forgive me if it is not up to your high standards.

 

Coaches in many, if not all sports (including mine), will tell you that practice against the best is always the most beneficial way to train. As I did in my sport, I trained against the best at the time and sure I got completely murdered for months but eventually, through adapting and analysing I learned how they operated and so my talents increased accordingly.

 

This, in my opinion, is no different to how things work in the game. By competing with players who are way above me in gear and skill etc, I learn what to do, who to avoid and who to confront.

 

To take your system in my training, I would compete against people of equal level for months and then get murdered by the first skilled person I come across. At least under the system that is in place now, the majority will have picked up enough skill/gear to survive or be competitive,

 

As a final point, your arguments about equal gear and only skill would stand up if SWTOR was the only game to have the system. I suppose next you will argue that even first person shooters like COD: Black Ops has a fair multiplayer system that requires no grind? So I can play the single player campaign, jump right into multiplayer pvp and be competitive? No I need to grind for better perks/weapons/gear while all the time being murdered by players who are prestiged 50000 etc....

 

And thats a single player.....MMORPGS are designed by nature to be LONG term.....but that is apparently too long....

 

I imagine your coach pitted you against people who were half cybernetic with adrenals and implants that made them able to be physically superior to you as well?

 

The problem with your logic is you are ASSUMING that just because someone has gear they have skill. I, in fact agree with your coach. Going against people with better skills does sharpen a player. But giving an outrageous advantage that offers no competition (as in WH vs Recruit gear) your are not going against someone whos edge over you is based on skill. Its based on superior numbers.

 

Tell me, do you honestly think that if you took the best pvper ever and placed him in recruit gear he would stand a chance? He wouldn't. His skill isn't even a factor. That is why YOUR logic is wrong.

 

Assuming that a player getting his *** beat over and over in less than 3 GCD's and getting smacked for half their HP in one hit isn't teaching them anything. There is no skill in that. Its simply, go be cannon fodder till you have 'x' amount of hours invested in game play time to be able to compete.

[Bluecapsule]

Interesting, and up to this point I had resisted calling anyones points or arguments the 'worst' out of respect for people having different opinions. Variety being the spice of life and all that.

 

I will try and answer your superior opinion as best I can, forgive me if it is not up to your high standards.

 

Coaches in many, if not all sports (including mine), will tell you that practice against the best is always the most beneficial way to train. As I did in my sport, I trained against the best at the time and sure I got completely murdered for months but eventually, through adapting and analysing I learned how they operated and so my talents increased accordingly.

 

This, in my opinion, is no different to how things work in the game. By competing with players who are way above me in gear and skill etc, I learn what to do, who to avoid and who to confront.

 

To take your system in my training, I would compete against people of equal level for months and then get murdered by the first skilled person I come across. At least under the system that is in place now, the majority will have picked up enough skill/gear to survive or be competitive,

 

As a final point, your arguments about equal gear and only skill would stand up if SWTOR was the only game to have the system. I suppose next you will argue that even first person shooters like COD: Black Ops has a fair multiplayer system that requires no grind? So I can play the single player campaign, jump right into multiplayer pvp and be competitive? No I need to grind for better perks/weapons/gear while all the time being murdered by players who are prestiged 50000 etc....

 

And thats a single player.....MMORPGS are designed by nature to be LONG term.....but that is apparently too long....

 

 

You seem to be completely ignoring most of the arguments against the current system while repeating the same "getting stomped makes you better" argument. It's true that most multiplayer games offer some kind of grind system, but even in COD a skilled player will easily stomp an unskilled player with better perks/weapons. Same with LoL. In LoL grinding gives you access to runes which boosts your stats, but the boosts are small enough that they would only matter if you were playing against nearly equally skilled opponents. The current system simply makes it not fun to play until you gear up for most people. The only other straight up "gear check" PvP game that I can think of is WoW, which SWTOR pretty shamelessly copies. Again, there are people that enjoy this type of gameplay, but given the fact that SWTOR is hemorrhaging subscribers I think its fair to say that the current system is failing.

 

Guild Wars survived for years on the strength of its PvP system that rewards skill, not grinding. LoL is probably the most successful f2p game in the world, and it's a highly skill intensive game. Instead of just going "I grinded for months so other people should have to also," we should always be looking for ways to improve the system. All online games are supposed to be long term, but the successful ones are the ones that make you keep wanting to come back for more because it's fun, regardless if you have to grind or not.

[BadOrb]

Time for the cap to be raised methinks 55 ? or 60 ?

 

Cheers,

 

BadOrb.

[Leiralei]

So you're frustrated with pvp because you can't beat all the people who've been lvl 50 longer than you. You don't like the disparity between yourself and a player who is wearing better gear than you? I would ask you, when you were pvping from lvls 1-49, and you were that lvl 40-49 guy who was just obliterating those lvl 10-20 guys because you had better gear and access to more skills than them, were you upset with the disparity then?

 

I'm the level 10 ops who hits like a wet noodle but who sneaks the objectives and effectively calls incs. I'm the level 14 sniper who does top damage. I'm the level 30 assassin who protects the ball carrier then sprints to the finish line after the pass.

 

Not all of us who enjoy alts at 10-49 are playing twinked out level 49s you know... but a level 10 can contribute to a warzone more than a recruit can. It's ridiculously unbalanced.