Why make force camo better than force cloak?

[Astarica]

The way the game handles stealth, the best advantage of stealth is the inability to make someone stop targetting you, and make it difficult for them to target you again (tab targetting being totally sucky magnifies this). In this respect Force Camo wins easily given its base refresh is 1/4 of all the other ways to make you lose target, and you can't even break it by AEs/dots while all other forms of stealth are vulnerable to these common countermeasures.

[SOULCASTER]

I'm with the OP, I hate that their cloak ability is far superior to my shadows. Regardless of how short their duration is, its unfair that they have a separately working game mechanic (you left out that it also reduces damage they take by 50% I believe). If you cloak and i instantly AOE on top of u....you should uncloak. period. All cloaking/stealth in game should work the same for all classes.

 

Also I agree with the other person who said on page 1, "they shouldn't have the counter to every class" because that is also true.

 

HOWEVER, Id much rather them nerf thier ''guarded by the force'' 99% dmg-reduction buff, that basically allows them to kill off the remainer of the team before dying or getting away.

Edited August 6, 2012 by SOULCASTER

[JackDeMolay]

If you dont understand it, you dont know the mechanics of the character...your crying is unfounded, unwarranted and useless...END OF THREAD:rak_03:

[Carnaje]

If you dont understand it, you dont know the mechanics of the character...your crying is unfounded, unwarranted and useless...END OF THREAD:rak_03:

 

You sir dont understand it, dont know the basis of the thread ... your crying is unfounded, unwarrented and useless ... stop posting

[Antipodes]

You underestimate how big it is to be able to get out of combat. Sentinels that use it to escape and regen may be annoying, but honestly, it's almost always less efficient than just dying and respawning. It takes very long to get out of combat + the time spend mediating.

 

DPS shadows could use some help and a 3 min CD does seem long. The buff they receive doesn't necessarily need to be related to force cloak though.

 

Tank shadows are fine. All this talk about stalling a node, and yet they are by far the best node guarder in the game.

Edited August 7, 2012 by Antipodes

[foxmob]

You can still be dotted and pulled from stealth as soon as you went into it. I couldn't careless if they removed this ability from the shadow, it doesn't work properly most of the time anyway.

 

just want to point out that I have enhanced stealth detection, and if you're near me without enhanced stealth, I'm going to see you and bring you out of stealth. i suspect that it's not always a dot that does this (I have a sin, and yes, i do have trble disengaging with vanish all the time, usually i'll stealth while being attacked and the attack will hit me after i've vanished). i do it to assassins all the time. they also catch me all the time.

 

also, stealth scan does bring maras/sents out of stealth...or makes them targetable with a quick hammer shot to bring out of stealth.

 

I'm for a nerf to mara/sent dcds, but I think there's a little misinformation going around here.

Edited August 7, 2012 by foxmob

[KantaUO]

Shadows in infiltration and concealment ops should have an additional 31point talent for a force camo. Same ability no changes.

[Shadyvoid]

Hey it's a constructive post.

 

Force camo has a 45s cooldown and lasts 4-5 seconds

 

Force cloak has a 3 minute cooldown and with no time limit, but more often than not it's less than 3 seconds before you're pulled from stealth.

 

as for the map stuff, I haven't paid attention - sometimes I'll still be in combat when I force cloak so it wouldn't surprise me if it was showing me in the minimap.

 

It makes me laugh at how you only take what you want to hear as "constructive". lol!

[Katsuragisama]

This really annoys me. I prefer to use Force Shroud as a more offensive ability than defensive. Probably the number one reason I pop Force Shroud, is to resist knock backs. The moment you Spike a Sorc or BH healer, the next thing they do is try to knock you back. Pop Force Shroud to resist it, and stay within range of your target, and you quickly have a dead healer.

 

Ofcourse this is used defensively too. Would you rather not watch your health bar plummet chasing a Tracer/Grav spamming newb? Then hit Force Shroud and resist their damage, while you bash their face in. That scoundrel stealthed to hit you with Hidden Strike/Shoot First? Pop Shroud and resist the knockdown, turn around, and stab his face in. Telekenis/Lightning got you slowed? Pop Shroud, run up, and stab him in the face as well.

 

Realize your team sucks and you're not going to cap mid? Pop Force Cloak... Oh wait, someone had dot'ed you and you used your shroud for one of the above. Well now you're out of stealth and still in combat. Did that tracer missile hit you last second right when you went in stealth? Too bad, now you're out of stealth, oh, and you have to wait 2-3 minutes for it to come off CD. Get caught in a cluster**** of AoE when you tried to combat stealth? Sucks for you, now you have 3 marauders leaping at you, all with 5 seconds of god mode each. Yeah, you know you're dead.

 

Face it, compared to Assassins/Shadows, Marauders/Sents get a 2(or 3) for 1 deal when it comes to stealth.. They dont have to worry about resisting AoE to stay in stealth. They dont have to worry about that tracer missile hitting them at the last second. They have less to worry about with someone finding them, as they get a nice increased to speed as well (hence the 3 in 1 deal). They dont even have to worry about health. Unless you're a deception sin and pick up a health thingy, you get 0 health. Hell Marauders can activate IWIN/God Mode and get healed back to 100% health if they want.

 

Assassins/Shadows

--Pop Force Shroud

--Pop Force Cloak

--Pop Force Speed

--Run

 

Marauders/Sentinels

-- Pop Force Camouflage

-- Run

 

It actually amazed me the first time I saw a Marauder going into stealth, even if its for 5 seconds. Why do you even need it? You can just leap to everything anyways. I know Shadows/Assassins have force speed, but we cant change elevation with it. You better run up that *********** ramp. Sents/Marauders, you just hit Force Charge and you're there.

 

I liked the dual sabers, but I wanted more of a stealth class when I first started. If I only knew the things I know now, I might have gone Marauder as my main. But I do love my Assassin.

 

Edit to add:

 

I forgot the reason I started looking into GW2. The lead class designer for the Sin class said we were made to a lone wolf, with hit and run tactics. 3 minute cloak compared to marauders with 45 seconds... I clearly understood they have no idea what they're doing. I'll play my favorite type, a stealthy burst class (profession) in GW2. Stealth there is like Force Camo here, you might be hit, but you wont be knocked out if it. It might last 5-6 seconds (6 for Thieves if traited) but you dont have to worry about if it will work or not. You know it will. You might even get hit and put into a downed state while stealthed, but it doesnt break your stealth, so you still have the chance of the enemy not paying attention and escaping.

 

Then again, this is the same lead PvP designer from Failhammer, so why did we expect it to be any different from that game?

Edited August 7, 2012 by Katsuragisama

[DarkSaberMaster]

You should cry about it.

 

He really should. In the car with Red from Friday after he got his chain took by Deebo.

[DarkSaberMaster]

I'm with the OP, I hate that their cloak ability is far superior to my shadows. Regardless of how short their duration is, its unfair that they have a separately working game mechanic (you left out that it also reduces damage they take by 50% I believe). If you cloak and i instantly AOE on top of u....you should uncloak. period. All cloaking/stealth in game should work the same for all classes.

 

Also I agree with the other person who said on page 1, "they shouldn't have the counter to every class" because that is also true.

 

HOWEVER, Id much rather them nerf thier ''guarded by the force'' 99% dmg-reduction buff, that basically allows them to kill off the remainer of the team before dying or getting away.

 

If a Sent/Mara can kill off the rest of your team in the time that GBTF/UR is up, no amount of dev nerfs can save you from how horrible of players that y'all are.

[vsalcedo]

Well the class shouldnt have a counter to everything imo i think it should be taken away. Marras have waay to many things to counter other classes.

Trust me le

 

Force camo is not a gs or sniper counter... Is more of a **** im ****ed gotta go ability 4 to 5 seconds is more then enough to get away. CC that maurader and he is crap, they die so fast when cc and stunned just like every class.

[Drudenfusz]

I am fine with Mara/Sent having their Force Camo, but I really think Force Cloak could need some improvment. In PvE it almost never works when I have my companion with me... and even without I can't use it to buy some time, because opponents just reset to full health when I fighting alone. In PvP it sometimes work so that I can escape, but too often I get pulled right back into the fight, so it's in most cases better to fight to the end than to try to waste time with this.

[NoTomorrow]

Yes lets give assassins a better cloak, because they are not already a facerollling class while having an easy mode defending nodes with stealth.

 

Whoever is asking for a force cloak buff, should take a double bladed lightsaber and stick it into their mouths.

Edited August 7, 2012 by NoTomorrow

[RogueNights]

Yeah marauders force camo is kinda stupid.. Assassins use stealth at most 1x an engagement, often to limited effectiveness, while you see marauders persistently dropping in and out of it. It's just not what you would guess would be the case, then again alot about assassins in swtor doesn't really fit w/ what most people would think...

[richardya]

Yeah marauders force camo is kinda stupid.. .

 

Marauder, like infiltration assassin, is a melee dps class. They are supposed to be, by definition, squishy. Having an ability to vanish is not stupid. If the Marauder or Infiltration Assassin is on a healer and someone on the healers team focuses on him, just vanish, if he is in a melee mosh pit and someone is on him, just vanish. It does not have to be when you are almost dead. The 5 seconds is enough time that guy you vanished from will not sit around and wait for you to reappear, he will focus on someone else.

 

The Marauder gets this ability every 30 seconds. The Infiltration shadow gets this ability every three minutes. In PvP this is a huge disparity. In PvE the shadow ability has other advantages.Undying rage is an extra ability apart from the two defensive cooldowns they each have in addition to cloak.

 

This is huge boon to the Marauder uptime which increases his overall dps. This ability every 30 seconds and Undying rage means you are pretty good defensively unless your healer hates you.

Edited August 7, 2012 by richardya

[Zunayson]

Count to 4 and they show right back up.

 

6 if annih!

[kuey]

Force Camo doesn't put you or the target out of combat so you can't get another HS off.

 

Just thought you should know the tooltip for HS/SF doesn't indicate that the player need be OOC, merely in stealth and behind the target. I've never tried it under those circumstances so don't know whether or not it is tied to being OOC or not so I'm just going off the tooltip here.

[Jadescythe]

Just thought you should know the tooltip for HS/SF doesn't indicate that the player need be OOC, merely in stealth and behind the target. I've never tried it under those circumstances so don't know whether or not it is tied to being OOC or not so I'm just going off the tooltip here.

 

Seeing as sins have no way to be stealth and in combat, this really doesn't matter.

[kuey]

Seeing as sins have no way to be stealth and in combat, this really doesn't matter.

 

Actually I was talking about Ops/Scoundrel, and yeah I know they don't have one. I was just carrying on from the original hypothetical scenario of Ops/Scoundrels having Force Camo.

[Rynis]

I think sent/mara cloak is fine for them.

 

BUT

 

Our vanish is extremely buggy, and it's annoying when I get knocked out of stealth for no reason. With companions especially.

[Mournblood]

Another Mara/Sent OP thread. The Pyro PTs must be laying low lately.

 

You'd think players would have figured this out by now and moved on to more legitimate class issues. I swear I'm going to compile some video of me getting owned while using Force Camo and Undying Rage. Until then, the examples already provided should suffice. The ability in question (Force Camo) is essential to the AC as melee DPS, since Charge (leap) is often countered with knockbacks and we're very susceptible to snares/roots because we have no ability to break them. Force Camo won't break snares/roots unless you're spec'd Carnage, which most PvP Maras are not (they are either Rage or Annihilation). If we were ranged DPS, then we wouldn't need it. Typically, I'm using it as a gap closer to get to my target, which is usually a healer in the back lines. Sins can and do the exact same thing with their stealth. If I'm using Camo to escape, smarter players will AE mezz the moment they see me vanish, which stops me in my tracks, or they know I'm going for the health restore in the corner and beat me to it, or they simply focus a different target until I reappear, or they AE an area in the direction they saw me heading and pull me out of stealth. The ability itself is not an automatic "get of jail free card" as players who've never played a Mara/Sent would have anyone believe.

 

The advantage Sin stealth has over Camo is that it's indefinite. I can't count how many times teams underestimate how defended a node is because there are one or two Sins sitting there stealthed, which results in wasting time and resources and the opposite team getting further ahead on the score clock. I've also seen the opposite, where a team over-commits to attacking a node, leaves too few defenders at the one they own, and the one or two Sins that have been patiently waiting there stealthed pounce on the defender and take the node.

 

The comparison between the two abilities is apples and oranges, as someone has already pointed out. Yet there will always be players who instead of seeing the advantages their particular ability offers, they will only see what they don't get from a somewhat similar ability. If your issue is with the limitations of your own ability, address that specifically. But attempting to justify a nerf of another class ability based on your own related ability isn't sufficient justification for it, and undermines any argument you may make about issues with your own ability (or ours).

 

The Marauder gets this ability every 30 seconds.

 

It's a 45 second CD. If you actually played the class, you'd know this.

[Aluvi]

We have no real stuns, we have no cc, we have an inherent disadvantage due to being melee, and we wear medium armor instead of heavy like our jugg cousins. We have no cc/stun/other immunity, like a venge specced jug would. We don't have anywhere near the mobility of a venge specced jug (double force charge, intercede, etc).

 

But no one complains about juggs. Things like force camo and our 5 second half health costing invulnerability put us on a level playing field with other melee. The ones that DO have multiple stuns, more burst damage, cc/stun immunity, etc. Less QQ, more PEW PEW.

[Aluvi]

Another Mara/Sent OP thread. The Pyro PTs must be laying low lately.

 

You'd think players would have figured this out by now and moved on to more legitimate class issues. I swear I'm going to compile some video of me getting owned while using Force Camo and Undying Rage. Until then, the examples already provided should suffice. The ability in question (Force Camo) is essential to the AC as melee DPS, since Charge (leap) is often countered with knockbacks and we're very susceptible to snares/roots because we have no ability to break them. Force Camo won't break snares/roots unless you're spec'd Carnage, which most PvP Maras are not (they are either Rage or Annihilation). If we were ranged DPS, then we wouldn't need it. Typically, I'm using it as a gap closer to get to my target, which is usually a healer in the back lines. Sins can and do the exact same thing with their stealth. If I'm using Camo to escape, smarter players will AE mezz the moment they see me vanish, which stops me in my tracks, or they know I'm going for the health restore in the corner and beat me to it, or they simply focus a different target until I reappear, or they AE an area in the direction they saw me heading and pull me out of stealth. The ability itself is not an automatic "get of jail free card" as players who've never played a Mara/Sent would have anyone believe.

 

The advantage Sin stealth has over Camo is that it's indefinite. I can't count how many times teams underestimate how defended a node is because there are one or two Sins sitting there stealthed, which results in wasting time and resources and the opposite team getting further ahead on the score clock. I've also seen the opposite, where a team over-commits to attacking a node, leaves too few defenders at the one they own, and the one or two Sins that have been patiently waiting there stealthed pounce on the defender and take the node.

 

The comparison between the two abilities is apples and oranges, as someone has already pointed out. Yet there will always be players who instead of seeing the advantages their particular ability offers, they will only see what they don't get from a somewhat similar ability. If your issue is with the limitations of your own ability, address that specifically. But attempting to justify a nerf of another class ability based on your own related ability isn't sufficient justification for it, and undermines any argument you may make about issues with your own ability (or ours).

 

 

 

It's a 45 second CD. If you actually played the class, you'd know this.

 

Quoted for truth. thank you.

[Paulman]

I really don't understand why sents or marauders have a stealth ability in the first place, they're lolmelee and have nothing to do with stealth.

 

But granted, bioware decided to give them one, not just on par with the stealth classes combat stealth ability, but better.

 

Force cloak is garbage and needs to be fixed, 9 times out of 10 it doesn't work because youre dotted, it has a ridiculously long cooldown, the animation is too slow, a missile/lightsaber was following you, you get stunned as you activate it and they spot you stealthed, your companion breaks it, or some aoe breaks it - whereas force camo is a stealth ability without any of the problems that come with stealth.

 

Why should I have to waste resilience in order to make this move work half of the time?

 

So why do sents/maras get the best aspects of stealth without any of it's shortcomings? Why do the stealth classes get a crappier vanish ability than a melee class?

 

Isn't GBTF or UR enough? Can someone explain to me what a marauder is doing with stealth in the first place?

This is the real reason sent/marauders are so powerful. It isn't so much that that have it. It's the 45 second cooldown that's the killer. Think about that for a sec. Where other classes have a knockback to try and get away, they have an automatic get out of jail free card every 45 sec.