Why make force camo better than force cloak?

[Order-Sixty-Six]

I really don't understand why sents or marauders have a stealth ability in the first place, they're lolmelee and have nothing to do with stealth.

 

But granted, bioware decided to give them one, not just on par with the stealth classes combat stealth ability, but better.

 

Force cloak is garbage and needs to be fixed, 9 times out of 10 it doesn't work because youre dotted, it has a ridiculously long cooldown, the animation is too slow, a missile/lightsaber was following you, you get stunned as you activate it and they spot you stealthed, your companion breaks it, or some aoe breaks it - whereas force camo is a stealth ability without any of the problems that come with stealth.

 

Why should I have to waste resilience in order to make this move work half of the time?

 

So why do sents/maras get the best aspects of stealth without any of it's shortcomings? Why do the stealth classes get a crappier vanish ability than a melee class?

 

Isn't GBTF or UR enough? Can someone explain to me what a marauder is doing with stealth in the first place?

Edited August 6, 2012 by Order-Sixty-Six

[-Fal-]

You should cry about it.

[Order-Sixty-Six]

You should cry about it.

 

go away.

[cycao]

Honestly...complain some more.

[Mularky]

Well before you get they entire Marra/Sent community here to defend their class, the cloak is kinda BS imo. Correct me if im wrong i think its a 45 second cooldown and increases movement speed by a bit if specced and lasts 4 to 5 seconds. I think if you look at your map you will see where they are. Still it is basically a get of jail free card. I do think it is op and and needs to be adjusted or taken away.

[Order-Sixty-Six]

Honestly...complain some more.

 

go away.

[Jadescythe]

Force Camo is a gap closer and really their only way to counter a sniper/GS at all. It lasts all of 4 seconds (can be talented to 5 I believe) and breaks if they enter combat early (most likely because they used it to break a root or avoid a casted ability or something). This is hardly a game breaking ability and doesn't function as an escape like op/scoundrel or shadow/sin where you can permanently restealth. Take it as one of many tools and it may paint another picture, but this is not the one I would choose to complain about with the 5 seconds of immortality out there.

[Order-Sixty-Six]

Well before you get they entire Marra/Sent community here to defend their class, the cloak is kinda BS imo. Correct me if im wrong i think its a 45 second cooldown and increases movement speed by a bit if specced and lasts 4 to 5 seconds. I think if you look at your map you will see where they are. Still it is basically a get of jail free card. I do think it is op and and needs to be adjusted or taken away.

 

Hey it's a constructive post.

 

Force camo has a 45s cooldown and lasts 4-5 seconds

 

Force cloak has a 3 minute cooldown and with no time limit, but more often than not it's less than 3 seconds before you're pulled from stealth.

 

as for the map stuff, I haven't paid attention - sometimes I'll still be in combat when I force cloak so it wouldn't surprise me if it was showing me in the minimap.

Edited August 6, 2012 by Order-Sixty-Six

[Archaar]

Force Camo is a gap closer and really their only way to counter a sniper/GS at all. It lasts all of 4 seconds (can be talented to 5 I believe) and breaks if they enter combat early (most likely because they used it to break a root or avoid a casted ability or something). This is hardly a game breaking ability and doesn't function as an escape like op/scoundrel or shadow/sin where you can permanently restealth. Take it as one of many tools and it may paint another picture, but this is not the one I would choose to complain about with the 5 seconds of immortality out there.

 

It's used as an escape though and it works very, very well. I've lost count of the times I've seen a mara/sent almost dead then use this ability to get away and heal up. BUT from a countering sniper/GS point of view I can see why you might need it.

[Mularky]

It's used as an escape though and it works very, very well. I've lost count of the times I've seen a mara/sent almost dead then use this ability to get away and heal up. BUT from a countering sniper/GS point of view I can see why you might need it.

 

Well the class shouldnt have a counter to everything imo i think it should be taken away. Marras have waay to many things to counter other classes.

[Order-Sixty-Six]

Force Camo is a gap closer and really their only way to counter a sniper/GS at all. It lasts all of 4 seconds (can be talented to 5 I believe) and breaks if they enter combat early (most likely because they used it to break a root or avoid a casted ability or something). This is hardly a game breaking ability and doesn't function as an escape like op/scoundrel or shadow/sin where you can permanently restealth. Take it as one of many tools and it may paint another picture, but this is not the one I would choose to complain about with the 5 seconds of immortality out there.

 

the only thing I see it's use for is knocking a sniper/slingers target off of them so they have to re-target. That's fine.

 

But gap closers? They have 2 leaps one with a 15 second cooldown do they not?

Edited August 6, 2012 by Order-Sixty-Six

[foxmob]

Force Camo is a gap closer and really their only way to counter a sniper/GS at all. It lasts all of 4 seconds (can be talented to 5 I believe) and breaks if they enter combat early (most likely because they used it to break a root or avoid a casted ability or something). This is hardly a game breaking ability and doesn't function as an escape like op/scoundrel or shadow/sin where you can permanently restealth. Take it as one of many tools and it may paint another picture, but this is not the one I would choose to complain about with the 5 seconds of immortality out there.

 

i'm going to call bs there. I mean...you're not completely off base, but it is very much an escape ability. 4s, especially with a speed increase spec'd, is huge. it also untargets you, so where ever you appear from, you need to be retargeted before the opponent can continue fighting (the mara/sent, however, can target anyone before coming out). and it's a huge advantage for every mara/sent on their way to cap a node or avoid a grapple. far from "just a defense against snipers."

 

while i agree with the op that the ability doesn't make sense on any JK from a lore standpoint, it is more a combination of various cd's that make the class unbalanced. I don't have a problem with requiring shadows/sins to pop resilience before vanishing. that mechanic is fine for all stealth classes. it's no different than remembering to pop resil before force speeding through fire so you can't be stunned or popping tech override AND reserve power cell before popping a plasma grenade for maximum burst. you're selling out to get something done asap.

Edited August 6, 2012 by foxmob

[TheronFett]

I really don't know why sents or marauders have a stealth ability in the first place, they're lolmelee and have nothing to do with stealth.

 

...Sentinels blended both schools of teaching and amplified them with a series of non-Force skills, such as in the fields of security, computers, stealth techniques, demolitions, repair or medicine.

- Wookieepedia entry

 

Since KOTOR pretty much coined the class, I think BioWare is a better measure of what the class should be than you are. They are a blend between warrior and sage classes, so having the ability to stealth briefly is perfectly reasonable. Or you could cry about it.

[Skolops]

the only thing I see it's use for is knocking a sniper/slingers target off of them so they have to re-target. That's fine.

 

But gap closers? They have 2 leaps one with a 15 second cooldown do they not?

 

Only one leap unless they are focus specced - which most Sentinels are not - and only one of the leaps is a real gap closer. Though the second can be used as one to a small degree, it has a 10 meter maximum range. The main leap, which everyone has, can't be used against snipers in cover.

[HurricaneXXIV]

Count to 4 and they show right back up.

[Jadescythe]

the only thing I see it's use for is knocking a sniper/slingers target off of them so they have to re-target. That's fine.

 

But gap closers? They have 2 leaps one with a 15 second cooldown do they not?

 

Only Rage gets a second one (shared tree with jugg) and that is 10 m or less, regular leap is the gap closer from 30 m. Both on 15 second cooldowns. Since leap is worthless against sniper/gs, force camo is the only way to get close. Of course then they get KB, roll cover for insta snipe, laze target, snipe, ambush for another KB, root, continue killing. So it's not like it insta kills them or anything, but gives them a chance.

[Skolops]

People need to realize that the real OP thing about Marauders is not Force Camo, or Undying Rage, or how much damage they can do, or any of the other things you see listed frequently. All of these things make sense and are not that big a deal if you know what you're doing.

 

That 50% slow that gets put on you against the Annihilation specced ones, though... that's the real deal. Take that away, and Sentinels/Marauders are a strong DPS class that can be combatted by any class if the skill levels of the players are comparable - just as it ought to be. However, WITH that slow, they are an insanely powerful class which is almost impossible for certain classes to counter in a number of situations and makes their damage potential immensely greater.

[Nolenthar]

As with many threads about sentinels/mara, I would answer by those points.

 

- 1st : The fact Force Camo works as intended (aka, gap closer + 4/5 seconds stealth) doesn't mean Force Camo is broken. It may suggest if other classes escape mechanics are not in par that they are broken.

- 2nd : Force camo is frustrating --> frustrating doesn't mean OP, however it clearly stresses the hell out of people (frustration = QQ --> see Mara threads)

 

Yes, Ops/Scoundrel and Sin/Shadow escape mechanics should be a bit buffed, be it by adding a cleansing on it, or by adding a 3-5 seconds invulnerability on it so it offers a higher chance to work as intended.

 

I play both a Shadow and a Mara and I wouldn't judge any of those better than the other in PvP department. However, force camo indeed works better than force cloak in many situations. Sure, Resilience is on a shorter cd than Force Cloak (and thus can easily be accessible), but still it's using 2 abilities to make one work as expected, which is a shame.

 

But please, think twice before you hit the "nerf thread". Sure, there is a high chance of the thread going with many answers, but it's more constructive to sometime think that maybe this ability is not OP, maybe another one is not working as intended.

[SinnedWill]

I really don't know why sents or marauders have a stealth ability in the first place, they're lolmelee and have nothing to do with stealth.

 

But granted, bioware decided to give them one, not just on par with the stealth classes combat stealth ability, but better.

 

Force cloak is garbage and needs to be fixed, 9 times out of 10 it doesn't work because youre dotted, it has a ridiculously long cooldown, the animation is too slow, a missile/lightsaber was following you, you get stunned as you activate it and they spot you stealthed, or some aoe breaks it - whereas force camo is a stealth ability without any of the problems that come with stealth.

 

So why do sents/maras get the best aspects of stealth without any of it's shortcomings? Why do the stealth classes get a crappier vanish ability than a melee class?

 

Isn't OWTF or UR enough? Can someone explain to me what a marauder is doing with stealth in the first place?

 

1.) Force camo and Force Cloak are two VERY different abilities, you're comparing apples to oranges.

 

2.) It's not better, it's different - force camo (which has a shorter cooldown and a 50% damage reduction attached to it) might make it APPEAR better than force cloak, but force cloak takes you (and your enemies that have aggro on you) OUT OF COMBAT, which permits FAR more significant tactical opportunities (i.e. you can use a medpack again, assuming it's off cooldown; you can change equipment; you can use your out-of-combat regen ability; you can use your stealth-based/ooc-based abilities such as mind trap or spike, you can regain stealth-based bonuses such as increased force regen rate if talented, etc.) - see what I mean about comparing apples to oranges? I would NOT trade my Deception Assassin's force cloak for my marauder's force camo ever.

 

3.) Yes, the proper application of force cloak makes it difficult to use if rooted/slowed/DoT'd, but that's what force shroud is for (though this won't remove ALL root sources, it still removes almost anything that can be used to pop you back out - excluding stealth probes - and if you're tank-specced, your force speed will break all existing slow/root sources - a combination of shroud + force cloak + force sprint will almost GUARANTEE that you escape). Also, Force Camo suffers from the majority of the same things in the same exact way as force cloak: DoT's, though their damage doesn't break force camo's cloak, still persist; roots/slows remain -unless you're talented into the carnage tree so that it will remove slows/roots-; attacks/debuffs that occur after using force camo still occur just as they do with force cloak (oh, and if you're carnage and talented for camo to remove slows/roots, you'll still get rooted/slowed by any abilities that land in this manner - you also don't have the 50% damage reduction when this occurs) and if anything, there's a longer delay between when force camo applies its stealth effect than there is with force cloak.

 

4.) Marauders have a stealth so that they can drop aggro (they die easily, despite having some of the best defensive cooldowns in the game), close gaps (charge alone doesn't cut it when marauders can't do ANYTHING unless they're in melee range and charge has a cooldown - without camo, marauders wouldn't be able to do much due to slow + kiting/knockbacks/roots - even with camo + gap closers, it's still easy enough to kite them), etc.

 

5.) UR/GBtF certainly isn't enough - it cannot be used early on in a fight due to the health-cost to use it (it's a last-minute "oh crapola" button) - and since it DOES have the health cost, it gets used at moments that are easily predictable making it very easy for players to bypass completely if someone stuns a marauder at ~30% HP and finishes them before the stun expires - also, even if they DO pop it, they can simply be stunned or rooted after using it and then finished off once it does expire.

[Order-Sixty-Six]

1.) Force camo and Force Cloak are two VERY different abilities, you're comparing apples to oranges.

 

2.) It's not better, it's different - force camo (which has a shorter cooldown and a 50% damage reduction attached to it) might make it APPEAR better than force cloak, but force cloak takes you (and your enemies that have aggro on you) OUT OF COMBAT, which permits FAR more significant tactical opportunities (i.e. you can use a medpack again, assuming it's off cooldown; you can change equipment; you can use your out-of-combat regen ability; you can use your stealth-based/ooc-based abilities such as mind trap or spike, you can regain stealth-based bonuses such as increased force regen rate if talented, etc.) - see what I mean about comparing apples to oranges? I would NOT trade my Deception Assassin's force cloak for my marauder's force camo ever.

 

3.) Yes, the proper application of force cloak makes it difficult to use if rooted/slowed/DoT'd, but that's what force shroud is for (though this won't remove ALL root sources, it still removes almost anything that can be used to pop you back out - excluding stealth probes - and if you're tank-specced, your force speed will break all existing slow/root sources - a combination of shroud + force cloak + force sprint will almost GUARANTEE that you escape). Also, Force Camo suffers from the majority of the same things in the same exact way as force cloak: DoT's, though their damage doesn't break force camo's cloak, still persist; roots/slows remain -unless you're talented into the carnage tree so that it will remove slows/roots-; attacks/debuffs that occur after using force camo still occur just as they do with force cloak (oh, and if you're carnage and talented for camo to remove slows/roots, you'll still get rooted/slowed by any abilities that land in this manner - you also don't have the 50% damage reduction when this occurs) and if anything, there's a longer delay between when force camo applies its stealth effect than there is with force cloak.

 

4.) Marauders have a stealth so that they can drop aggro (they die easily, despite having some of the best defensive cooldowns in the game), close gaps (charge alone doesn't cut it when marauders can't do ANYTHING unless they're in melee range and charge has a cooldown - without camo, marauders wouldn't be able to do much due to slow + kiting/knockbacks/roots - even with camo + gap closers, it's still easy enough to kite them), etc.

 

5.) UR/GBtF certainly isn't enough - it cannot be used early on in a fight due to the health-cost to use it (it's a last-minute "oh crapola" button) - and since it DOES have the health cost, it gets used at moments that are easily predictable making it very easy for players to bypass completely if someone stuns a marauder at ~30% HP and finishes them before the stun expires - also, even if they DO pop it, they can simply be stunned or rooted after using it and then finished off once it does expire.

 

Their stealth ability isn't dependent on another ability to function, whereas force cloak is dependent on shroud/resilience. I'd like to use my resilience as a defensive cooldown instead of proc'ing force cloak to actually work with it.

 

I'm not crying OP, merely that force cloak is subpar based on how finicky it is.

[kitfoxtrot]

dont forget about the -50% damage taken~

 

 

it's needed for a gap closer- right on, I guess guardians heavy armor just lets them eat way less damage as they slowly walk towards an opponent when leap is down... oh wait a second

 

shadow cant even be healed if they use their exit combat while invis unless spec'd 3 colums deep middle tree

[Altheran]

That 50% slow that gets put on you against the Annihilation specced ones, though... that's the real deal.

 

If this snare is the real deal, what about the Carnage specced ones who can root people for ~9 seconds...

Edited August 6, 2012 by Altheran

[Kilikaa]

Maras/Sents should not have a camo ability in the first place. The vast majority of Knights/Warriors did not have this ability. Temporary as it may be, it allows a Mara to disappear without a trace, heal up and then come back ready to wipe the floor with his enemy. Shadows/Sins can't even do that! Why should a freaking Sentinel be able to disappear and heal while being unseen? Unless the Shadow uses Blackout they will be seen as soon as they disappear.

 

Camo should be removed. Ask yourselves this...How many Jedi/Sith do you know who had the Camo ability? Revan? Nope. Luke Skywalker? No. Anakin? Again, no. Bane? Nope. Juhani had the ability in the original KOTOR. Bastila didn't. I don't even think Yoda had the ability, but who knows exactly what abilities he had. He did live for 900 years. My point is that Camo should not belong to the Knight/Warrior class. If it must remain then make it so any dots in effect can break it. Any aoe dots applied right after activation can break it. Also, absolutely no healing while it is active. I am so tired of beating up a Mara with my Shadow or a Sent withmy Sniper only to have them disappear with less than 20% health and come back seconds later at nearly full health.

[richardya]

I really don't know why sents or marauders have a stealth ability in the first place, they're lolmelee and have nothing to do with stealth.

 

But granted, bioware decided to give them one, not just on par with the stealth classes combat stealth ability, but better.

 

Marauder is a melee DPS class so you should be comparing this to the infiltration and balance shadow. (and/or operative) If people say it's to counter sniper then how are infiltration and balance supposed to counter them? Force speed I think is a longer cool down than force leap. I think they each get a cc break and the marauder gets 2 defensive + undying rage and the shadow (DPS) gets 2.

 

Rebuke http://www.torhead.com/ability/eiFgIOA/rebuke

Pacify http://www.torhead.com/ability/9XbWeNV/pacify

Guarded by the force http://www.torhead.com/ability/Lo8SMo/guarded-by-the-force

 

Deflection http://www.torhead.com/ability/d0UsepC/deflection

Resilience http://www.torhead.com/ability/dEsVsc4/resilience

 

The shadow also generally needs to burn his cleanse and force speed to make force cloak work.

I think the force cloak cool down is way to high for the dps shadow and I will withhold my comment on my sentinel until it hits 50, currently only 33ish.

 

I am not a big fan of comparing classes, because as an example, the shadow has a Knock back, stun and immobolive and and immobilize from stealth. So it's hard to compare. But defensively the shadow should have a comparable cooldown.

Edited August 6, 2012 by richardya

[AngusFTW]

Temporary as it may be, it allows a Mara to disappear without a trace, heal up and then come back ready to wipe the floor with his enemy.

No it doesnt.