Sage/Sorc do you think you are underpowered?

[Antipodes]

Sages are in a decent place, but could use some small buffs. Make force speed immune to roots (but not break existing roots) and revert the conveyance changes (minus the fix to double dipping).

 

Marauders aren't too bad in 1v1 situations because I can at least somewhat kite them. I have trouble with Pyro PTs because there's no way to prevent their damage.

[Sinsavz]

Haha, just read that guy on the first page saying that mercs are the counter of assassin. That is just golden.

 

The rock paper scissors argument doesn't stand up when marauders or pts, for example, are so good versus the majority of classes.

Edited July 24, 2012 by Sinsavz

[Antipodes]

You are talking about a 93 point spec.

 

What? I have all those abilities in the quote you referenced as a balance or balance/tele hybrid sage and use them against marauders.

 

And I've never skipped the stun cd reduction in either of those specs.

[MidichIorian]

What? I have all those abilities in the quote you referenced as a balance or balance/tele hybrid sage and use them against marauders.

 

And I've never skipped the stun cd reduction in either of those specs.

Out of curiosity, could you post your spec?

[Ssfbistimg]

No I do not. I think why most Sage/Sorcerers feel like marauders/sentinels are over powered is because once the marauder/sentinel gets the upper hand on you, you are dead. Our only save our but move is Force Speed (which is easily counterable). And when we get the upper hand on them they have a plethora of things they can do. I think we should have been giving something very similar to their stealth ability. Just like they got a similar ability to our force speed. Something like we go stealth for 2 seconds and it finishes cooldown on force speed. Could have been on like a 2 minute cooldown. But in no way am I underpowered. I still do tons of damage and can be a pretty solid off healer. My spec is 7-3-31 Balance. I get the 4 piece stalker gear bonus. And my FiB hits hard as hell.

[Antipodes]

Out of curiosity, could you post your spec?

 

Balance:

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#600croRsrkrfzZZf0M.2

 

You can move 3 points into Upheaval instead of the self heal talents. Last three points you can get the crit talent and/or stronger shield.

 

Balance/Tele Hybrid:

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#600crzRsrkZZbsMRbMM.2

 

There are many talents you can get with your last three points. Mind's Eye is is not necessary unless you get Tele Wave.

[pureeffinmetal]

Arguing 1v1 is largely pointless.

 

But DPS Sages at least, could use some type CD, either offensive to turn them into true glass cannons or defensive to let them live longer under focus fire.

 

Healers are largely fine given that they are always guarded and/or receiving peels.

[TheLordMaster]

I play a marauder as well and yes I agree Marauders are OP, not so much their damage as their ability to chain interrupts and insane defensive cooldowns ON top of their good damage.

 

Sorc damage does suck, it isnt bursty, and they have terrible defensive cooldowns.

Edited July 25, 2012 by TheLordMaster

[ACTroyan]

No Sorc is not underpowered vs the Mara because the sorc is not the Anti-Mara! People it IS paper, rock, scissors regaurdless of how you want it. If every class could 1v1 every class with an equal chance of damage, survivability and healing then NO ONE WILL WIN!

 

If you want equality against all classes then your asking really for all classes to be the same! They are not! And IMHO this game would be way worse off if they were!

 

As I have played against and with a variety of classes what I have found is something like this

 

Jugg<Sin, Sin<Merc, Merc<Mara, Mara<Sniper, Sniper<Sorc, Sorc<PT, PT<Ops, Ops<Jugg

 

What I mean with this is that a Jugg vs Sin the Sin should win around 75% straight up. And essentially that goes for every class. When played right and to the full potential of a class you CAN kill ANYONE but not EVERYONE! You get lucky against your anti-class and you pull off an upset yet close victory and then get slaughtered by someone else as that class and you are left wonder what happened you should have nuked them so we come on the forums and QQ, Nerf this its OP!

 

Most every class against another class is around 50% 1v1 except where I noted above. However, it is not a straight up 50%. In some cases it is a 60-40 split +/-. Tanks feel like they can jump into a group and kill everything with barely taking any damage cause that is how it worked in PvE, yet in PvE the Tank didn't really do anything except maintain aggro. A healer kept him alive without a scratch, and his DPSers killed all the Mobs or Boss. A Tank with that Tank mentality jumps into PvP and gets nuked by 2 DPSers and thinks WTH? I should have lasted longer dealt more damage or whatever cause they usually can, when they have the team support.

 

This is the case with all classes, a Mara without a healer is just medium armor and any one can focus them down quickly if they have the advantage!

 

People QQ and base their prowess on their supposed 1v1 matchups in WZs on Out in the world. Just cause you got the advantage or went against someone not so good on that class doesn't mean you can kill that class 100% of the time you are matched up with them! In fact no class has that absolute!

 

PvP is a oganized function, without support you have to see yourself as vulnerable to anyone. Matched up with any alternate class with a like minded player on the other end, same gear and base stats and see who wins out of 100+ matches you will find that I'm really close on what I am saying here. However, too often we find ourselves outnumberd, starting on the defensive, against different playing styles and differently geared opponents. Crying OP cause they have the advantage but never claiming YOU need a nerf because you are OP and are winning 90% of your matchup is just lame. When you are on top you love your character but when you get beat it is just because the class is OP is not helping anyone.

 

You've seen the chatter in PvP "Focus Target," "Move here!" "Attack this" because it is team oriented! If it wasn't and the classes were not balanced you would hear "Ok I want The Mara on Left, right and mid cause you are the OP class and will kill everything that is out there!"

 

When you get into a WZ and see that you have 5 Mara and 3 Snipers because they or FotM you can actually expect to get rolled by a good compositioned team with 2 tanks 2 heals and 4 DPS. It Just wont work for you in the long run! So after you run a PuG and you got your butts kicked look at your composition, Healers vs Healers, Protection vs Protection and then Damage vs Damage. Know your role and play as a team and on the streets always travel with a buddy! (Hopefully you can run faster then them so you can get away while they trash 'em!)

 

except mara isnt really <sniper, obfuscate can basically shutdown a sniper completly while mara bashes its face in, oh wait now its on cd now use blade barrier to block 80% of the snipers shots, or camo to ruin the snipers ambush cast, or cull depending on spec, keep bashing, if the sniper is not dead within those 20+ seconds of being damn near invulnerable to sniper dps he should hang up his belt and quit. but even if the sniper is still magically hanging in there... the mara still has cloak of pain and undying rage! mara just has way more tricks up its sleeve than any other class... sure a sniper could try to burn some the mara's defencive CD's with flashbang or debilitate but the mara can cc break one of those and snipers white dmg defense only lasts 3 seconds not 12... a competent mara can kill any class thats why it's OP. any arguments against it are just mara's trying to stay OP. someone is sure to state that this is a team game why compare 1v1 but if we are talking about rocks to someones scissors we are talking about 1v1. and a mara hands down are the dynamite to the rock paper scissors game right now. PT's burst is crazy compared to other classes as well but atleast they sacrifice alot of survivability for it. i think if they require TD to have a dot on the target like RS it would be alot more fair, that way a healer could cleanse it to bring down the dps a little. just my 2 cents.

[ACTroyan]

sage/sorc dps is mediocre with no burst but they have that auto slow on their lightning/pebbles, which causes a lot of my 50's serious trouble. i think if lightning spec did a bit more dmg or madness had a few similar defensive cool downs to lightning they would be in good shape. but sorc/sage and merc are the only classes i dont have to 50 so this is just an outsiders point of view.

[Wrthlessnoob]

The best strategy for fighting a Mara is to run away lol.

If that isn't an option, don't use DoTs since you will need your Mezz to shut down the Mara when he pops UR.

Save your knockback for Ravage.

Use Force Slow every time it is off CD.

Your Stun should be used to burn off his Cloak of Pain.

Watch his Resolve bar like a hawk. If you fill it you are dead.

 

Leap has a minimum range, so it is possible to kite them within that distance and prevent them from using it. There is also a shorter ranged jump (rage spec) that requires rage though, so they may use that.

 

Saber throw and Dispatch both have max ranges, but no min.

 

Actually if the marauder is annihilation spec they won't have a min range for charge, just fyi

[Daiyukie]

I went the Shadow route instead of the Sage route, but I've taken a liking to Balance spec lately since my Shadow was relegated to the "dick-around in solo PvP" character. I can see how a DPS Sage would be extremely powerful, because there are never any Force problems as Balance and I love the actual flowing synergy between talents, it feels quite nice.

 

I've heard it said a few times that Balance Shadow is basically just a less-effective Sage and since we run a DPS Sage in our Ranked group who is very good at kiting just about anything that doesn't have a bunch of leaps and roots, I can see the potential. Marauders are the problem, imo, rather than Sages being bad, since they are the true glass cannon and have great utility. I'd say buff their knockback, but that's it, tone down Marauder/Sent first and then see what balance looks like.

 

As a Scoundrel DPS, Marauder/Sent is the only class I have no answer to. Pyro PT can tear me a new one when it's a big battle rather than 1v1 with me getting the drop, but Marauders can just let me open on them, burst me back, then survive because their survivability is mostly back-loaded (Cloak of Pain being the exception since it's constant) while my damage is front-loaded.

 

We also run two Sents in Ranked and healing them is easy when combined with the under-30% spam heals, which is a type of synergy that seems too powerful in addition to the damage they have.

[Jaiyne]

II can see how a DPS Sage would be extremely powerful, because there are never any Force problems as Balance and I love the actual flowing synergy between talents, it feels quite nice.

 

As a Balance Sage, if you are not OOF all the time, you're doing it wrong. Balance Sages have huge force problems when they have a lot of uptime.

[Teambo]

As a Balance Sage, if you are not OOF all the time, you're doing it wrong. Balance Sages have huge force problems when they have a lot of uptime.

 

This. Whenever i'm not getting focused for a while, i'll run OOF and then i'd rather die quickly and come back in most situations than try either to wait for my force to come back or use noble sacrifice (lol). When OOF, my damage output is so low that i'm just a dead weight. Of course this is given I can see my teammates can do without me for a few seconds, and that I cannot meditate to regen.

[Boyana]

My main is a Sorcerer and I have been playing both: a healer and a dps. In my opinion, Sorcerers do not need buffing, ALL OTHER classes need nerfing, big time. But, since it is easier to buff one than nerf others, that is why I've been asking and supporting sorcerer buff in every thread here and there.

 

So, yeah, I think Sorcerers are underpowered. The end.

[Maxkardinal]

Why is everyone complaining about 1v1's in an objective based group play pvp environment?

 

Because there is no group play pvp enviroment in SWTOR.

 

There are class disballance and poorly designed PvP objectives (which favors sertain class abilities).

[islander]

As one of both, I'd say a little of both.

 

To elaborate: Marauder DCDs are slightly too powerful and one of them should be nerfed. Sorcerers have no DCDs and need at least one.

 

Basically this. I don't think Mara/Sent is grossly OP.

Just a bit too much defense for the DPS they crank out.

 

Meanwhile, in a warzone environment, Sage/Sorc have force run, which is an escape from a fight mechanism that is negated by root, it doesn't adequately contribute to your combat viability at all.

[islander]

Arguing 1v1 is largely pointless.

 

But DPS Sages at least, could use some type CD, either offensive to turn them into true glass cannons or defensive to let them live longer under focus fire.

 

Healers are largely fine given that they are always guarded and/or receiving peels.

 

What server do you play on? Receiving peels? What's that?

[Darth_Philar]

What server do you play on? Receiving peels? What's that?

 

Banana peels.

 

That's why your character falls down so often.

[Laforet]

What server do you play on? Receiving peels? What's that?

 

Even with peelers sorc healer is still underpowered if compared the other 2 healing ACs because it has almost no continuous healing capability when getting beat on and cracks down easily.

 

Sawbones can run around spamming a strong HoT + IWIN button counter burst medpack when chased.

 

Commandos hull down pop ininterruptable shield and heals while getting peels.

 

Sorcs put a 3k shield which cant crit out every 17 seconds and the most underpowered HoT in the game (heals for 300 with trauma in a WH geared sorc) and thats pretty much it.

Edited July 25, 2012 by Laforet

[furiousferret]

They need a bit more defensive survivability, because the game always seems to be attack the sorc's first, and when a class is seen as that easy a kill and is always the first option, that is a problem. For the people that play the class the fun factor is diminished.

 

Sorc healing and DPS are fine. Revivication and bubble are 2 of the best healing abiliites in the game, and good Sorc's can keep up if not do more healing that Operatives.

[SinnedWill]

Could you please elaborate on your strategy to take on a mara/Sent on 1Vs1 and come out with more than 80% of hp? I have taken a few on 1vs1 (mostly undergeared) and usually this works if I have a good LoS / kiting area and a bit of luck with crits. What do you do when they charge you if you dont stun/knockback? Chance are if you root them and force speed they will leap to you and take your health off quickly.

 

I save knockbacks for when they pop their offensive windows (annihilation - watch for deadly saber buff icon among their buff icons; carnage - watch for gore proc buff icon; rage - watch for shockwave stacks). Rest of the time (against all specs), I'm using creeping terror, force slow, and force speed while strafe-casting (throw in a cybertech cryo grenade if you can't find the magic without it, but once you're well-practiced, you won't need the extra root) to maintain kiting distance.

 

GOOD Rage maras should only get one empowered smash off on you (can't prevent them from catching you with it if they berserk and force camo position to you) before you can deprive them of getting another full stack of shockwaves (purge force crush, stun-break + jolt when they use force choke on you) - after they've gotten one empowerd smash off on you, your self-healing from DoT crits will pretty much negate their damage without empowered smashes (if you're lazy and don't keep static barrier up - if you DO keep static barrier up, you'll be gaining health). BAD rage maras will charge or obliterate to you with their automatic 4-stack of shockwaves from berserk and then immediately try to smash, so you simply wait for the charge animation then use your knockback (this will make them miss their smash, but retain their shockwaves, though they can't try to smash you again for at least 12s).

 

Annihilation Maras can get tricky and I'll admit that sometimes I have to pop a medpack - most of these will get a rupture (causing the rupture DoT and one stack of deadly saber DoT) on you before you knock them back, but this is actually a good thing (damage from a single stack of DS and rupture DoT isn't severe) and knocking them back too soon after they've activated deadly saber buff gives them enough time to regain position and apply a full 3-stack - knocking them back after they've only gotten one stack of DS on you typically lets you buy enough time outside of melee range for deadly saber's buff to expire (use creeping terror + force slow + LoS + strafe-cast kiting). Yes, you might get hit hard even if you've countered their offensive window if annihilate crits.

 

Carnage maras are usually the trickiest to manage kiting due to the roots, but they're managable. Their deadly saber roots are countered by our creeping terror's root, so you need to save it for when they do this. Their offensive window, however, is the easiest to counter out of all the marauders (gore proc only lasts 4.5s), so a timely knockback each time they have this up pretty much shuts down their burst; DO NOT resolve cap this spec... ever, or you'll just be begging for them to gore + ravage + force scream you (which is the closest thing to a guaranteed kill). Fortunately, they're the least sturdy of all marauders, so they drop quickly - and since they're always rage-starved, they'll usually rely on their roots to maintain melee-range, so they'll rarely use their slow.

 

I save my stun until all marauders are ~30% HP, then I'll pop recklessness + death field + shock + creeping terror (if I have a wrath proc) to completely prevent them from even getting a chance to pop undying rage.

 

Marauder's most significant issue is fighting for longer stretches of time than they can afford - both their offensive and defensive windows are very short duration (exception being cloak of pain when they have a long duration DoT on them, but I have no issues with letting it last a full 30s and still kill them). Certainly helps that I have my own marauder (makes countering them much easier), but I figured out how to counter marauders on my sorc. before I began significantly playing my own marauder.

[SinnedWill]

As a Balance Sage, if you are not OOF all the time, you're doing it wrong. Balance Sages have huge force problems when they have a lot of uptime.

 

^^ True story. People have a huge misconception about sorc/sage resource management due to having the largest resource pool and flat-rate regeneration on it. These people don't play balance/madness specs in pvp (in pve it is more easily managable). The force cost on all of our abilities is significantly higher than our force regeneration. Madness/Balance specs should be down to ~5% after about 40 seconds in pvp (at this point, all we have left is force lightning/tkt spam and a we pray that it doesn't ever get interrupted, since this is our only feasible method of regaining some force without sitting there with our thumbs up our butts until we can use our real abilities again). Force lightning/TKT's damage is similar (if not lesser) to that of other class's auto-attack damage and yes, it does apply the annoying slow effect, but it can be interrupted (robbing us of its damage, slow effect, and the 1% force regen per damage tick).

[MbaxterBeau]

This.

 

Agreed and lI love healing on my sorcerer but they are the worst class in the game for pvp.

[PloGreen]

Sage/Sorc do you think you are underpowered?

 

No. They are fine.

 

Do other classes need to be adjusted back down to earth a little?

 

Yes.