Buffing the Underpowered Classes

[warultima]

It's just great to see people saying this game is rock-paper-scissors.

Which is mostly true but SWTOR also has guns that counter rock paper and scissors equally.

 

its like back in WAR people were like Bright Wizard was so balanced coz its rock-paper-scissors while Bright Wizard were obvious laser cannon with self regenerating plasma shielding.

[DarkZeron]

its like back in WAR people were like Bright Wizard was so balanced coz its rock-paper-scissors while Bright Wizard were obvious laser cannon with self regenerating plasma shielding.

 

hahahaha

[kweassa]

Give Operatives a little more survivability and it will really help. Or, a 2nd vanish ability would be acceptable too, although a little more extreme. Having 2 vanishes could make them a little too OP at defending nodes. Currently once an Operative pops out and slams you with his initial burst/stunlock, they don't really have much else, so they're praying they can take enough of your HP in the beginning to be able to dwindle it the rest of the way down.

 

What happens after that initial opening with back blast and following few attacks, is what separates a bad Op/Scoundrel player from a good one. There are loads of things to do, to set up, and unlike other characters, there is no set pattern you can follow or copy - all of your actions after that opening attack entirely depend on the situation and must be constantly improvised. That takes a lot of experience and some quick thinking and creativity... and not all people can do that.

 

That being said, what Ops/Scoundrels could really use is a fixed timer that drops you off combat. Frankly ALL classes could use this to some point. Since flashbangs are 8 seconds in duration, I'd suggest 8.5 seconds of non-action (no active skill use for the purpose of attack, no receiving any type of damage or hostile effect from enemy) would drop combat no matter what.

 

Now, when that becomes possible, its a whole new ball game for Ops/Scoundrels. Obstacles and LOS blocks, pillars and obstructions... under these conditions we'd come out in stealth, hit the enemy, run and buy time, if successful re-enter stealth.. and a lot more technical action would become possible,

[fujeo-finel]

Not every class is meant to be damage based. 99.5% of the people posting on the PvP forum still fail to realize that simple fact. And because it's so simple, I'll explain it (again). Classes are balanced around 4 aspects of combat:

 

Damage

Defense

Healing

Utility

 

Pick one. Yes, only one. Your class and spec is good at ONE of the above. ALL classes have 3 of 4 on this list, but expect diminishing returns. Everyone wants damage in PvP. I see a lot of Juggs especially complaining about their damage output being subpar to other classes of supposed "similar" specs. Not the case. Juggs are:

 

1 - Utility

2 - Damage or Defense (depending on spec)

3 - Damage or Defense (depending on spec)

4 - Healing

 

Yes, Juggs are a Utility first class. Breaking news to many, but it's true. The defensive cooldowns coupled with the control offered in any spec explains the balance around this class NOT focusing on damage first. Those who constantly complain about balance don't seem to understand what their own class really has to offer and playing it to its strengths. Being good at PvP is not about putting up huge damage numbers. It's about winning.

 

A spec should not be balanced around how much utility it has. Utility is far too situational to be balanced around. PvP boils down to DPS vs DPS, with tanks and healers for support. Utility may help DPS in various situations but nerfing DPS or some other parameter due to how much utility a spec has is laughable.

[laiboch]

Okay so for once can we all be sort of positive?

 

What classes need to be buffed or adjusted upwards to bring them to the same level as the so perceived Flavor of the Month classes?

 

What can be done to fix the Scoundrel/Operative?

The only thing they really need is a bit better sustained damage, but as it is they are a heavy hitting burst class.

 

What do Trooper/BH healers need to be competitive?

Their healing is fine. Its their damage that really needs to be brought in line.

Arsenal does very sub par damage. This has to do with the knee jerk nerf the spec received, and the Merc Pyro spec also under performs the PT version. Its really amusing that they nerfed the Arsenal spec because people were pulling 500K+ damage, but then they boost PT's so they are doing 500K+ damage... Really?

 

What could be done to bring it in line? Have more Dev's start playing the class so they buff it up after getting face rolled a few hundred times. I know they will probably be scratching their heads wondering why everything isn't working as intended, but when you see 90% of Merc's get shelved and a massive number of PT's leveling up there is an issue. Players should not have to shelf toon's and re-roll just to be able to play on a competitive level. Perhaps Bioware thinks if they keep making FOTM classes that people will stick with the game and keep making new toons. I couldn't tell you. More it seems that Bioware is lost and has no idea how to find their way back to the path.

 

How can the underplayed specs be brought up to par?

 

There are lots of ways several under performing classes can be brought into line, but the first challenge is to get the people responsible for doing this to actually respond to the community and admit they do need to be worked on. This is the real challenge because I am sure that with the drop in population and the resulting loss in revenue they simply are biding their time trying to milk what they can before the game goes down to 1 PVP and 2 PVE servers.

 

As a whole if you are actually hoping that Bioware will listen to you and make positive changes to the game don't hold your breath. It seems their mentality has shifted from a "lets do this right" mind frame to a "how long can I stay off unemployment" mind frame.

 

They do not really test changes before they go live. They ignore play testers that tell them things are not working right and will even shut down threads where people bring up very well made points on class changes.

 

Bioware is making it very clear they do not care about their player base, and as a result the player base is looking at other options for their gaming fix.

[Sookster]

What can be done to fix the Scoundrel/Operative?

What do Trooper/BH healers need to be competitive?

How can the underplayed specs be brought up to par?

 

Revert acid blade armor penetration nerf, and revert 10% damage laceration nerf. Or some kind of gap closer.

BH/trooper healing is good, survivability is the biggest issue. And needs an interrupt.

Sage/sorc needs a little something too, but not sure what, it's the only class I don't play in this game.

Deception/infiltration definitely needs something.

Edited July 25, 2012 by Sookster

[Didy_Kush]

Buff powertechs

[Roiz]

Buff powertechs

Powertechs are OP, buff Vanguards instead.

[MbaxterBeau]

sorcerer healer: Our heals are so good you'll let us solo-guard objectives. Brilliant.

 

Sorcerers are probably the best healing class and do not need any buffs except for survivabilty in pvp. If you have good gear and know your rotation you should be fine.

 

One thing that might effect healing is putting talent points in the lightning tree but that helps survivabilty. We should be able to heal and pvp 1v1

[cycao]

Powertechs are OP, buff Vanguards instead.

 

Wrong, Vanguards are mega op buff Powertechs.

[MbaxterBeau]

Hail yea.

 

Make forse speed grant immunity to snare/roots and breake movement impailing on use

 

Give sages/sorcs someting like Ice Block

 

And maybe, and i mean maybe a 2 sec root on death field/FIB only as tallent buff (one that gives a 20% buff to next 10 dots)

 

And it will be legendary.

 

Yes ice block but TOR style would be nice.

[Roiz]

Wrong, Vanguards are mega op buff Powertechs.

What are you taking about vanguard cannot heal and don't have a stealth but powertech can fly.

[cycao]

What are you taking about vanguard cannot heal and don't have a stealth but powertech can fly.

 

Granted but vanguards can teleport.

[bobmcbo]

my merc healer is fine, but my lethality operative isn't. Lethality operatives need a new way to gain tactical advantage- we don't want to waste time with a self-heal or get into melee range if we want to improve our DoTs.

[oredith]

we've had 3 major patches. name one that buffed a class?

 

bioware's stance has shown itself to be "balance via nerf".

 

soon, we'll just all be shooting/beating each other with nerf bats/guns, while wearing tissue paper.

[cycao]

we've had 3 major patches. name one that buffed a class?

 

bioware's stance has shown itself to be "balance via nerf".

 

soon, we'll just all be shooting/beating each other with nerf bats/guns, while wearing tissue paper.

 

Snipers have been getting small buffs consistently over the last few patches and op/scoundrel healers got a pretty good buff in 1.2.

 

but yes they usually go with a nerf and not a buff.

[MbaxterBeau]

we've had 3 major patches. name one that buffed a class?

 

bioware's stance has shown itself to be "balance via nerf".

 

soon, we'll just all be shooting/beating each other with nerf bats/guns, while wearing tissue paper.

 

Lol so true!!!

[ArchangelLBC]

Basically, you could give them ONE of your ideas and they'd be strong. As it is, your changes are in the range of "stupid godly OP". I know you're frustrated and all, but at least you can do good damage whenever you want, predicated on good team support, as opposed to dealing with retarded stealth mechanics that no one can do anything about.

 

Keep in mind that two of those changes are intended for the assault spec (Make Charged Bolts instant cast with a cooldown, and have it talented to proc plasma cell 100%). Even if you make the charged bolts instant cast an assault talent then those two changes together would make assault perfectly viable in endgame PVP in my opinion, and I'd be fine.

 

If they want to make Gunnery/Arsenal a viable spec in PVP, which they may not want to since it's one of the best PVE specs in the game, then it needs most of those changes or something similar, which just goes to show how grossly underpowered it is. A Gunnery Commando that has been targeted by even one DPS with an interrupt (read: every DPS that isn't a merc or another commando) is a dead one or one that isn't doing damage so might as well be dead.

 

I could honestly live without knockdown on stockstrike (though as is the knockback is too small a range to be of much use), or having CoF make FA uninterruptable. They would be nice, but fine don't include those. I could even deal without a stand alone snare or root. But the snares on concussion charge and full auto need to be talented to roots, and gunnery commandos need some way to go uninterrupted for a non trivial % of the time. These are just facts. It would make us no more OP than Gunslingers/Snipers, other classes could still counter us (the proposed hold the line ability is a straight 8s kind of thing. Its not like I'm making it 6s but it refreshes every time you take damage). If I've made a lot of changes it's because again, Gunnery Commando has no real tools at all to keep enemies at range and to guarantee their casts go off. That's why they're so lacking in PVP.

 

Again, I am not asking for any more damage from my abilities. I am asking for situational tools to do the damage I can do. As a ranged class relying on cast times and channels that means the ability to keep my targets at range and get my casts off.

 

Or just make the proposed changes to assault (though since their FA is what they use instead of stockstrike and the spec doesn't boost FA damage at all, there could be an argument for a way to make FA talented uninterruptable in the Assault tree).

 

All I'm asking is for one viable PVP DPS spec. Assault doesn't need much help to be that. Gunnery needs a ton.

[ArchangelLBC]

we've had 3 major patches. name one that buffed a class?

 

bioware's stance has shown itself to be "balance via nerf".

 

soon, we'll just all be shooting/beating each other with nerf bats/guns, while wearing tissue paper.

 

Actually last patch saw a nice buff to Commando damage via talent changes to Target Aquisition (giving armor pen to HiB and Full Auto) and making Grav Round grant two stacks of charged barrel per cast, as well as a change to ammo management that I think has been good for the class. Now it's just utility changes in PVP they need.