Enough is enough!

[Soluss]

You act like you know. Sources please.

PvP server rulesets

Player vs. Player (PvP) - On a Player vs. Player server, players from the opposing faction can attack you at almost any time. Of course this means that you can also attack them at almost any time. This provides you with a more challenging experience since you are under the near-constant threat of attack, both from NPCs and from players aligned with the enemy faction.

 

We also wanted to expand on what the PvP server ruleset means in The Old Republic. The obvious overarching rule is that in general, if you see a player of the opposite faction, you may immediately engage them in combat.

 

The exception to this rule is sanctuaries, which are large areas where PvP may not take place, regardless of whether you are flagged or unflagged for PvP. Examples of this are the Origin Worlds (Tython, Ord Mantell, Hutta, and Korriban), the Capital Worlds for both sides (Dromund Kaas and Coruscant), and the Republic/Imperial Fleets.

 

IOW its open world PVP full time. You can sit there and camp your enemy as long as you want to. Dragging NPCs into the equasion is not griefing by any means. Have you ever played on PVP server before?

Edited July 22, 2012 by Soluss

[Wraiven]

Nuff said. Your reponses to the contrary not withstandling. Lots of people claim to like or want things that they really don't, some may not even realize it. This entire thread and it's title tell us your true nature. The first stage is acceptance.

 

Get a life, man. You're attempt to insult me was...futile. You can't even spell...more less put somebody down.

[StaticJoe]

Nuff said. Your reponses to the contrary not withstandling. Lots of people claim to like or want things that they really don't, some may not even realize it. This entire thread and it's title tell us your true nature. The first stage is acceptance.

 

 

I did my first WZ last night...the only thing I know about PVP is I know nothing about PVP plus my Sorc isn't geared for PVP...and I had one helluva good time. If it was red I blasted it--did I die? Absolutely. Did I kill a few people? Yes I did. Did I know what I was doing? Not a snowball's chance in hell but I have to say I did enjoy it--dunno if I would want to do it on a regular basis but once in a while most definitely

[Wraiven]

IOW its open world PVP full time. You can sit there and camp your enemy as long as you want to. Dragging NPCs into the equasion is not griefing by any means. Have you ever played on PVP server before?

 

I appreciate the decent response with the proper info. You sir have given the best and only response worth looking at in this thread.

 

So pretty much, pulling mobs in to other players on a PvP server will not get you banned like it would on a PvE server. If I decide to return the favor, it is completely legal and I do not have to worry about being banned for this?

 

If it is fair play, then so be it. Game on.

[Soluss]

I appreciate the decent response with the proper info. You sir have given the best and only response worth looking at in this thread.

 

So pretty much, pulling mobs in to other players on a PvP server will not get you banned like it would on a PvE server. If I decide to return the favor, it is completely legal and I do not have to worry about being banned for this?

 

If it is fair play, then so be it. Game on.

 

No, I dont think you would get banned for it.

 

Thats the spirit!

[Thundergulch]

I'd hate to see how the OP would react if he played EVE Online .

[Sorrin]

I think camping would be more fair on an actual sandbox MMO. In SWTOR you pretty much have places that no matter what you have to go through. You want to get from one city to another that you haven't discovered yet? You run along the path, no other paths available.

 

People are saying to transfer to another server because he must not like PvP.

Well... we can't transfer xD

 

We're stuck in these servers and from the sound of it, the server he was on before didn't do that and the one he was moved to does. That's my assumption. I bet if he could choose to transfer to another PvP server he'd be happier, where there are others who are more like minded to him. But we don't have that luxary.

 

If you have a life, you don't want to restart your legacy, your creds, your characters, your affection, or anything back to lvl 1 on a new server leaving everything behind.

[Blackardin]

After sifting through 6 pages of BS from people without a clue, somebody finally posted a proper response to the topic. Nothing more to see here, thank you.

 

I'm surprised it only took six pages. ;p

 

Contrary to what is being stated here, PvP or non-PvP has nothing to do with the issue being justified or not. PvP servers do not provide for the right to exploit or harass.

 

Bottom line here is that it is interpretive based on motive. According to the rules of conduct they are exploiting a game mechanic in order to disrupt your gameplay, which can be considered harassment. It also speaks of "incessant behavior", which this can also be considered.

 

Not my call, theirs, but this is what the, Rules of conduct state.

 

Harassment consists of misuse and/or abuse of game mechanics and verbal harassment with the intention of distressing and offending other players. Game mechanics allow players to interact with the world and each other. For example, the ability to block a doorway is a game mechanic. Use of game mechanics like these is by no means considered harassment in and of itself. The key to determining whether the mechanic is being misused or abused is to determine "intent." Reported incidents are not considered harassment until it is determined by the SWTOR CS that it was done to intentionally to cause distress or to offend other players.

 

Harassment is also any behavior that is incessant, inescapable, derogatory and directed specifically at you or your group. Before reporting, a genuine attempt to alleviate the situation should be made by leaving the area or the offending player, or asking them politely to stop. If a sincere attempt has been made to solve the problem and the offending player persists in the behavior, it should be reported.

Edited July 22, 2012 by Blackardin

[Sarfux]

If they do not stop, you know what you do? Create a circle around them and don't let them out. Wait them out. Kill them. Make them suffer then. Isn't that your job as an Imperial anyway? Darn..I mean go back to fleet, get some guys, go to planet get some guys and get it done YOURSELF! Stop crying and DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!!

 

Don't be one of the people expecting a trophy for complaining. Make yourself a trophy winner by cleaning up the pigs that are doing it and showing no mercy. THATS how you deal with people like that.

[Ansalem]

Yeah the OP either needs to get a group of players together to kill the 'griefers' or he needs to play on a pve server because honestly welcome to pvp. People will use any advantage they can to win a fight so are you really surprised by this? Either kill the person or move.

[Spectus]

The main reason that people even do these things is to try to engender world pvp skirmishes which are much more interesting and dynamic than....

What hogwash.

 

The ONLY reason one or two people go into the Ilum heroic zones and aggro multiple groups of mobs is TO GRIEF PEOPLE. Full stop, period, end of debate.

 

Yes, it's lame, and stupid, and annoying. And there's one or two or four people, BOTH IMP AND REPUBLIC, that get their jollies doing it on our new server. It's tempting to indulge in some tongue-in-cheek whining about "forced PvE" as an evil twin of "forced PvP." But it is what it is.

 

The sad thing for me is, Saints of the Old Republic once dominated our original server, and we kept the griefers down. Like many, our guild took a numerical hit as boredom set in for some, and lost half our guild when the ones who'd gotten bored went back to WoW until BioWare comes up with new content. And now we're made the transition to a new server, and we're surrounded by new faces, and we're dealing with a new crop of griefers. But we Saints have also regrouped, and we're reaching out to our fellow Republic players and rolling Imp griefers when we find them.

Actually, crying is EXACTLY what (the OP is) doing. The Devs have already spoken on this. Clearly and without any ambiguity. The warning message that pops up when you click on a PvP server says that they will not 'intervene/consider griefing' anything which can be resolved via PvP (I am paraphrasing). Since your group or your guild could repeatedly kill the so-called griefers until they stopped or got sick of dying, you clearly have a PvP solution. So, NOT griefing (if you choose to frame this with that label).

One can debate whether a 'PvP solution' is even practical when one player can aggro four or more groups of 3 to 6 Strong/Elite NPCs at once on his enemies, as is common among these griefers. But it can be done, and my guildies and I have done it. It generally involves one or more tanks, each with a pocket healer, pulling the NPCs away from the griefer(s), clearing the field for a hit squad to fry him/them. And when the griefer(s) stop returning after one or two quick and ignoble deaths, it's quickly revealed that what they were trying to do was NOT "induce more interesting and dynamic world PvP skirmishes," but indulge in griefing. So spare us the platitudes. They're clearly bantha poodoo.

[boxfetish]

I appreciate the decent response with the proper info. You sir have given the best and only response worth looking at in this thread.

 

So pretty much, pulling mobs in to other players on a PvP server will not get you banned like it would on a PvE server. If I decide to return the favor, it is completely legal and I do not have to worry about being banned for this?

 

If it is fair play, then so be it. Game on.

 

Learn to read. You were already told what the pop-up message says in-game when you choose a PvP server. It is even more explicit that the behavior you were whining about won't be addressed by Bioware. Nice try trying to pretend that you weren't getting constructive responses until now, though.

 

You are exactly the kind of pretender that belongs on a PvE server. The kind that always insists on playing on the PvP servers instead of the PvE ones because they believe it gives them some sort of MMO cred or bragging rights. Hell, you may even like it in small, measured doses when the time and place is completely under your control. You may even think you like PvP and want PvP (and all that it entails) but as soon as it affects your PvE crystal gathering or wookiee cake making, you are right on the forums complaining that this PvP which impacts your PvE is inappropriate or unintended. This usually results in getting PvP nerfed/instanced from the rest of the game and ruins it for those of us who actually like PvP "Enough is Enough!" indeed

[boxfetish]

What hogwash.

 

The ONLY reason one or two people go into the Ilum heroic zones and aggro multiple groups of mobs is TO GRIEF PEOPLE. Full stop, period, end of debate.

 

Yes, it's lame, and stupid, and annoying. And there's one or two or four people, BOTH IMP AND REPUBLIC, that get their jollies doing it on our new server. It's tempting to indulge in some tongue-in-cheek whining about "forced PvE" as an evil twin of "forced PvP." But it is what it is.

 

The sad thing for me is, Saints of the Old Republic once dominated our original server, and we kept the griefers down. Like many, our guild took a numerical hit as boredom set in for some, and lost half our guild when the ones who'd gotten bored went back to WoW until BioWare comes up with new content. And now we're made the transition to a new server, and we're surrounded by new faces, and we're dealing with a new crop of griefers. But we Saints have also regrouped, and we're reaching out to our fellow Republic players and rolling Imp griefers when we find them.

 

One can debate whether a 'PvP solution' is even practical when one player can aggro four or more groups of 3 to 6 Strong/Elite NPCs at once on his enemies, as is common among these griefers. But it can be done, and my guildies and I have done it. It generally involves one or more tanks, each with a pocket healer, pulling the NPCs away from the griefer(s), clearing the field for a hit squad to fry him/them. And when the griefer(s) stop returning after one or two quick and ignoble deaths, it's quickly revealed that what they were trying to do was NOT "induce more interesting and dynamic world PvP skirmishes," but indulge in griefing. So spare us the platitudes. They're clearly bantha poodoo.

 

I won't respond to your rigid BS opinion (and that's all it is) about this sort of activity other than to say that forming a guild to combat this thing is a totally awesome player generated response to this problem and is exactly how it should be handled.

 

Crying on the forums to have big mommy game developer take away (or instance) the big-bad PvPer's so that one can pick flowers and bake bantha pies in peace without having the PvP impact one's game experience is a very clear indication that one belongs nowhere near PvP games or servers.

 

What the individuals or groups who are repeatedly camping areas or pulling mobs may actually be motivated by or thinking about is irrelevant.

 

Now, the OP may be a bit more subtle than how I am characterizing it, but that's essentially what it is, a complaint about PvP impacting PvE. It starts with posts like the OPs and doesn't take long for the pretend PvPers to start clamoring for the PvP to be completely isolated from the PvE (even in game where this is pretty much already the case).

Edited July 22, 2012 by boxfetish

[Spectus]

Learn to read. You were already told what the pop-up message says in-game when you choose a PvP server. It is even more explicit that the behavior you were whining about won't be addressed by Bioware. Nice try trying to pretend that you weren't getting constructive responses until now, though.

 

You are exactly the kind of pretender that belongs on a PvE server. The kind that always insists on playing on the PvP servers instead of the PvE ones because they believe it gives them some sort of MMO cred or bragging rights. Hell, you may even like it in small, measured doses when the time and place is completely under your control. You may even think you like PvP and want PvP (and all that it entails) but as soon as it affects your PvE crystal gathering or wookiee cake making, you are right on the forums complaining that this PvP which impacts your PvE is inappropriate or unintended. This usually results in getting PvP nerfed/instanced from the rest of the game and ruins it for those of us who actually like PvP "Enough is Enough!" indeed

I don't think someone complaining about one person throwing multiple clusters of elite NPCs at a small group exactly qualifies as whining about someone interfering with "PvE crystal gathering or wookiee cake making." But you win a cookie for the nice burst of hyperbole. /golfclap.

[boxfetish]

I'd hate to see how the OP would react if he played EVE Online .

 

That's exactly the crux of this entire issue, isn't it? I mean this guy wouldn't just not play EVE Online to begin with because it's not for him. He would play, think it makes him PVPzor!1! and then whine about specific instances of PvP impacting his game experience and call for it to be changed.

 

How do I know this? Because he didn't just play on a SWTOR PvE server, did he? He willingly and knowingly chose PvP because he wants to believe he likes it and then he cried when the time and place and manner of the PvP wasn't under his control. Fail.

[Spectus]

I won't respond to your rigid BS opinion (and that's all it is) about this sort of activity other than to say that forming a guild to combat this thing is a totally awesome player generated response to this problem and is exactly how it should be handled.

My point clearly went whistling completely unnoticed, right over your head.

 

I will restate it.

 

Relying on multiple clusters of elite mobs to do your "PvP" FOR you is so lame, it really doesn't even qualify in my book as "PvP." PvP is PLAYER versus player. If you want PvP, man up and DO PVP! There's plenty of it. Everywhere.

 

Otherwise, you're a griefer. And you will earn a griefer's ill reputation.

 

Crying on the forums to have big mommy game developer take away (or instance) the big-bad PvPer's so that one can pick flowers and bake bantha pies in peace without having their PvP impact one's game experience is a very clear indication that one belongs nowhere near PvP games or servers.

Have you seen my comment about your hyperbole in my last rebuttal of your comments? Same goes here. Except this time you don't get a cookie for hyperbole. Now you're just engaging in forum PvP. And you're losing badly.

 

And you flatter yourself about the "big-bad PvPers" who indulge in this stuff. My experience, and the experience of others who live for PvP is that such people are neither big, nor bad. In fact, they resort to pulling elite mobs because they're so terribad at conventional PvP that they NEED the NPCs' extra firepower to have a chance. When their NPC cover is gone, they are generally pretty pathetic. The ones I've seen apparently don't even know how to fight. I remember one time, I had one of these bozos pinned against the side of a cage, and he kept trying to run -- facing straight into the side of the cage!

 

What the individuals or groups who are repeatedly camping areas or pulling mobs may actually be motivated by or thinking about is irrelevant.

No, it's not. YOU YOURSELF assert that it is not, with your grandiose statements attributing some sort of noble-minded goal of "instigating dynamic and variable world PvP" to griefers. So now that I've pointed out the hypocritical falsity of your statement, you're trying to pretend that YOUR OWN ASSERTION is irrelevant?? Thanks for the laugh, pal.

 

Now, the OP may be a bit more subtle than how I am characterizing it, but that's essentially what it is, a complaint about PvP impacting PvE. It starts with posts like the OPs and doesn't take long for the pretend PvPers to start clamoring for the PvP to be completely isolated from the PvE (even in game where this is pretty much already the case).

There you go again, equating griefing and exploitation of in-game mechanics with PvP. I'm not sure if the distinction really is lost on you, or you're just playing dumb. Either way, I don't really care. The end result is the same: YOU ARE DEFENDING GRIEFING. And if that is your gameplay style, you can expect to be shunned, because it won't be long before EVERYONE ON YOUR SERVER will hate you.

 

And it'll be your own dumb fault.

 

THAT is my point.

[mothear]

Whilst I am not a WoW apologist by any means they basically cracked this by preventing mobs from aggroing against a target that was not part of the aggro group.

 

The only way to do this now in WoW is if people are careless with your AoE.

[Spectus]

Here's an excerpt from a magazine article that came out a couple years ago, on the topic of griefers:

Broadly speaking, a griefer is an online version of the spoilsport — someone who takes pleasure in shattering the world of play itself. Not that griefers don't like online games. It's just that what they most enjoy about those games is making other players NOT enjoy them. They are corpse campers, noob baiters, kill stealers, ninja looters. Their work is complete when the victims log off in a huff.

I'm not going to provide a link to this article, nor am I going to identify the magazine in which it appeared. It talks about some really idiotic "griefer" actions, and I simply don't want to give ideas to the griefers in this thread.

 

But folks -- seriously, y'all need to stop and think about the costs of virtual sociopathy. You might insist that it's just you going for "teh lulz," but think about it. If your source of kicks is to enrage people so much that they quit your favorite game, you are harming the long-term viability of your own game! In the short term, you're decreasing the profits of your game's publisher. And no matter what the disclaimer in the character-creation screen on a PvP server might say, I suspect there are indeed limits on what a publisher will accept.

 

Common sense is a wonderful gift. I urge you to apply some.

[Rogoo]

OP's QQ is really delicious.

[Arlbo_Nabbins]

lol, that is just too funny you do not think I relish open world PvP. This is why I want Illum back. nuff siad.

 

That tells us that you don't actually want real open world PvP, what you want is a large PvP zone. You do indeed belong on a PvE server where you can choose when you PvP by entering a PvP zone or by flagging yourself when doing missions.

Edited July 22, 2012 by Arlbo_Nabbins

[Andryah]

If your source of kicks is to enrage people so much that they quit your favorite game, you are harming the long-term viability of your own game!

 

Having played a number of MMOs over the years with real PvP play mechanics in them, I know for a fact this is not true in the context of PvP play per se. You are trying to lump all MMO sociopathy into one basket, which is flawed and lacks common sense.

 

Fact is, in player vs player encounters in MMOs, just like in real life people can and will do anything and everything available to them to beat an opponent they are in conflict with. Their motives are irrelevant in the context of PvP. It's people vs people, and if you were ever to experience real life combat between people, you would know this and understand it for what it is. If you want to avoid it, or have the developers protect you from it, then you roll on a PvE server where you can control and decide when and under what rules you engage in MMO PvP, under an umbrella of developer controlled rulesets that protect you.

 

Common sense is a wonderful gift.

 

Yes it is. I find your ad hominem to be ironic here.

Edited July 22, 2012 by Andryah

[Sorrin]

I still say this entire argument would be done if server transfers were available.

 

And server merging where you are forced to pick between 1 server and itself to transfer to does not count as server transfers.

[Spectus]

Contrary to what is being stated here, PvP or non-PvP (server status) has nothing to do with the issue being justified or not. PvP servers do not provide for the right to exploit or harass.

 

Bottom line here is that it is interpretive based on motive. According to the rules of conduct they are exploiting a game mechanic in order to disrupt your gameplay, which can be considered harassment. It also speaks of "incessant behavior", which this can also be considered.

 

Not my call, theirs, but this is what the Rules of Conduct state:

 

Quote:

Harassment consists of misuse and/or abuse of game mechanics and verbal harassment with the intention of distressing and offending other players. Game mechanics allow players to interact with the world and each other. For example, the ability to block a doorway is a game mechanic. Use of game mechanics like these is by no means considered harassment in and of itself. The key to determining whether the mechanic is being misused or abused is to determine "intent." Reported incidents are not considered harassment until it is determined by the SWTOR CS that it was done to intentionally to cause distress or to offend other players.

 

Harassment is also any behavior that is incessant, inescapable, derogatory and directed specifically at you or your group. Before reporting, a genuine attempt to alleviate the situation should be made by leaving the area or the offending player, or asking them politely to stop. If a sincere attempt has been made to solve the problem and the offending player persists in the behavior, it should be reported.

I'll add a few of my own comments to this excellent post.

 

1. The text above gives the SWTOR Customer Support crew the power to draw conclusions on player intent. And INTENT is a key factor for identifying players' actions as acts of harassment. So, we all need to bear in mind that our actions are subject to analysis by CSRs. And if THEY decide that ANY action -- even a seemingly-innocuous one -- was performed with intent to harass, it IS harassment, at least as far as their game's environment is concerned.

 

2. An element that can offer clear proof of malign intent is player speech. If you issue angry statements in Chat about "those blankety-blank Imps/Pubs... I'm gonna make those blankety-blanks cry!" or you make derogatory or demeaning comments about other players, and THEN engage in actions that could be construed as "griefing," I'd say a CSR could easily conclude your griefing has graded over into harassment, because your own words demonstrate a degree of hostility and/or abusive intent. Even the comments in this thread about how "The OP's QQ are so sweet" and the like can be taken as evidence of malicious intent.

 

3. Likewise, persistent or "incessant" actions (such as "camping" the opposing faction's Heroic area on Ilum) can easily be frowned upon. And given the amount of finger-pointing that goes on between Imperial and Republic players, it would not surprise me at all to hear that some players' heroic-camping shenanigans wind up being deemed to be harassment.

 

4. Does this mean that ALL such actions and words are harassment? No. But it DOES mean that an interpretive "grey area" has been built into the Code of Conduct to empower CSRs to differentiate between run-of-the-mill chest-thumping and aggressive or unorthodox PvP, and griefing and harassment.

 

5. In short, you tread that grey area at your own risk.

[FeekSands]

After sifting through 6 pages of BS from people without a clue, somebody finally posted a proper response to the topic. Nothing more to see here, thank you.

 

 

 

 

I know I am on a PvP server....to be killed in open world is to be expected. But here lately, more and more Republics are camping the Poisonous Strat area and pulling mobs into people who are trying to get their dailies finished. It's not that they just happen to be there, it's the fact that they will sit and camp there for hours on end.

 

Where is the line drawn between fair PvP play and grieving players?

 

I'm sure there are Imperial players who are doing the same thing to the Republics, which IMO is not right either. I just want to know, is this legal play or is this a bannable offense?

 

There was one guy, who has not been around for a long time who sat there 24/7. I guess he was banned because I have not seen him in over a week now. But now that he's gone, there have been others to take his place. Not sure what kind of kicks they are getting out of it, you get nothing out of it. There seems to be no point to this.

 

Anyone who plays on Prophecy of the Five know exactly what and who I am referring to.

 

Sadly some people get their kicks just being immature jerks. It seems to be the new way the young have fun? Although there are older immature jerks I am sure. So I hope you get results form bioware and some kind of ettiquite is enforced. I admit I do not care for PvP mainly because of what you describe. So I support your point.

[Spectus]

Quote: Originally Posted by Spectus

If your source of kicks is to enrage people so much that they quit your favorite game, you are harming the long-term viability of your own game!

Having played a number of MMOs over the years with real PvP play mechanics in them, I know for a fact this is not true in the context of PvP play per se.

Seriously? One of the biggest turn-offs to MMOs is griefer-type players.

You are trying to lump all MMO sociopathy into one basket, which is flawed and lacks common sense.

Heh... I just wrote a lengthy post pointing out the difference between PvP and griefing. Granted, "griefing" comes in a wide spectrum of flavors, but that gradation is part of what I am trying to point out! There IS no clean line of demarcation between what one person would consider "innovative use of the in-game environment" and griefing, and between griefing and harassment.

 

And I was particularly struck by the comment of one participant in this discussion, who was revelling in the fact that he had even enraged his own friend, who did not know it was he playing that highly-annoying enemy-faction player that was giving that friend so much grief. Makes me wonder if they are still friends.

 

Fact is, in player vs player encounters in MMOs, just like in real life people can and will do anything and everything available to them to beat an opponent they are in conflict with. Their motives are irrelevant in the context of PvP. It's people vs people, and if you were ever to experience real life combat between people, you would know this and understand it for what it is. If you want to avoid it, or have the developers protect you from it, then you roll on a PvE server where you can control and decide when and under what rules you engage in MMO PvP, under an umbrella of developer controlled rulesets that protect you.

Or, if players have found an exploit that allows them to circumvent common sense, you petition the devs for a bug fix. Or, if an existing mechanism allows players to derive an advantage you deem unfair, you can also petition for the element to be modified.

 

The thing is, I'm not interested in real-life combat. This is a GAME. And if, in this GAME, players are found to be gaining an undue advantage by bending or stretching or bypassing or otherwise abusing certain rules, the solution is to repair the relevant rules.

 

 

 

Common sense is a wonderful gift.

Yes it is. I find your ad hominem to be ironic here.

What ad hominem attack? I was giving good advice.