Sigiles Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 (edited) First thread for me so here goes. First off let me say I tried to find a suggestion thread, and if there is one that I didn't find, feel free to smack me on the head and give me directions. With that out of the way I am wondering if the current Need & Greed system is good enough. I understand the general idea of it, with the honor system people roll need only when they actually need something. But does it work like this? I play a Juggernaut and I'm so sick and tired of Marauders rolling need on Heavy Armor either because they don't realize they can't use it or because they justify need rolling by saying they will pry out the mods and use them. Is that a valid reason for need rolling, just to get the mods? Earlier this day I lost the Foeseeker's Body Armor to a Marauder who I think didn't even speak english at all. So his reason for need rolling is unknown. And I understand rolling for companions is fine when no one else needs the item, but I've seen piles upon piles of people naming people that have need rolled gear for companions when someone else needed it for their own character. Some would say this is ok, others would not. Anyway I digress, I would like to see a system where you could not press if the stats / armor type didn't match your class, the button being greyed out. Failing that I would at least want to see a system where you couldn't press need if you couldn't equip the item. I know the honor system with Need & Greed is widely acknowledged but the internet tends to turn people into, less nice people, so many perfectly good guys could be screwed by a minor number of people that don't care whether or not they themselves can actually use the item in question. This dragged on, and may have a "whiny" tone to it, I am aware. But I excuse myself for that seeing as it's not 10 minutes ago since I experienced this yet again. Would love to hear other opinions on the matter of the current loot system. Edited July 16, 2012 by Sigiles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XmaceukX Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 I have not had many instances where people have just been plain greedy. I don't think its right to call need on an item for your companion over a player that needs it that's just greedy plain and simple I would let them know its out of order and not to need on items the can't use unless it was agreed before the instance started. I can hear what ya saying but tbh this is how it is in all MMO's and I doubt it will change with SWTOR some people are just greedy period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tawnos Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 Anyway I digress, I would like to see a system where you could not press if the stats / armor type didn't match your class, the button being greyed out. Failing that I would at least want to see a system where you couldn't press need if you couldn't equip the item. This wouldn't work exactly as you describe, because enhancements are, generally, universally useful. In fact, some of the best enhancements for DPS Sorcerer Black Hole gear come from the Merc Healer set. That said, I understand where you're coming from. I guess my first thought is that, from a purely mechanically standpoint, "the mods are the gear". The empty shell of the gear itself is only desirable for aesthetic purposes (which I can't imagine ever being a Need roll). So, I can understand people wanting to Need for gear that isn't necessarily their main set. Still, I have yet to see a general consensus on my server as to what is "socially acceptable" in the Need/Greed realm. It varies group to group a lot. The obvious exception to this being gear that carries a set bonus. Those are clearly meant for a specific AC, and anyone who isn't that AC could probably be blocked out of Need rolls for that gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itsmymillertime Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 1. its for my companion 2. i will strip the mods out 3. its for an alt all are valid reasons to roll need on something that will not apply to your current toon. i suggest you you spell out the rules as some people will use those excuses to roll need. then you got people who will vendor sell it and say if the game lets me need on it, i can and will do so. Its all about who you are and what rule set you want to use. Not everyone follows the same rule as you. find a group and establish 1 rule set so you dont get upset. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazzer Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 The problem with putting restrictions in place that prevent people from needing on things that they cannot use is that people form groups where they agree a rule set that will allow such rolls and discover that they cannot do it. I've been on plenty of guild runs that are to gear up companions, which we put in the group finder *** a full group to get out daily done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qarran Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 (edited) Understand OP, and I have seen many make mistakes too. A player didn't mean to need something and they get ostracized for it. A simple mistake that anyone can make but they are stuck because the good stuff is bind on pick up. I think you shouldn't be able to need anything you can't equip. If you are looking for gear for your companion? GTN. Also, there plenty of drops in solo mode that will also fit the bill. Or maybe you do away with the system altogether. Everybody rolls for everything equally. Then it just becomes the luck of the draw. It sounds drastic, but it would take it out of the gamers hands and avoid any unpleasantness between gamers. Edited July 16, 2012 by Qarran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 I just need when I need, everything else I pass on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CosmicKat Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 1. its for my companion 2. i will strip the mods out 3. its for an alt all are valid reasons to roll need on something that will not apply to your current toon. i suggest you you spell out the rules as some people will use those excuses to roll need. then you got people who will vendor sell it and say if the game lets me need on it, i can and will do so. Its all about who you are and what rule set you want to use. Not everyone follows the same rule as you. find a group and establish 1 rule set so you dont get upset. Those are only valid reasons IF nobody in the group can actually use them. If there is only one character who can use a piece of heavy, for example, then that is the only character that can justify a "need" role. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazzer Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 I think you shouldn't be able to need anything you can't equip. If you are looking for gear for your companion? GTN. Also, there plenty of drops in solo mode that will also fit the bill. . I disagree, with the agreement of the group you are with you should be able to do what ever you like, why should I pay for companion gear when I can farm it, I want my companions in full columni at the least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allistair Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 1. its for my companion 2. i will strip the mods out 3. its for an alt all are valid reasons to roll need on something that will not apply to your current toon. i suggest you you spell out the rules as some people will use those excuses to roll need. then you got people who will vendor sell it and say if the game lets me need on it, i can and will do so. Its all about who you are and what rule set you want to use. Not everyone follows the same rule as you. find a group and establish 1 rule set so you dont get upset. Sorry, I don't think any of those are valid reasons for rolling need on an item that another member of the group can actually EQUIP right there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuthirFontaine Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 (edited) 1. its for my companion 2. i will strip the mods out 3. its for an alt all are valid reasons to roll need on something that will not apply to your current toon. i suggest you you spell out the rules as some people will use those excuses to roll need. then you got people who will vendor sell it and say if the game lets me need on it, i can and will do so. Its all about who you are and what rule set you want to use. Not everyone follows the same rule as you. find a group and establish 1 rule set so you dont get upset. Reason why you never ever pug anything you need gear on..... The pug is a greedy creature and believes everthing is his .... Find a guild barring that make friends... Edited July 16, 2012 by LuthirFontaine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterKayote Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 The problem with putting restrictions in place that prevent people from needing on things that they cannot use is that people form groups where they agree a rule set that will allow such rolls and discover that they cannot do it. I've been on plenty of guild runs that are to gear up companions, which we put in the group finder *** a full group to get out daily done. Thats all well and good but for LFG groups it should be set to Need before Greed by Bioware. Kind of like what WoW is implementing with Mists. That would be for the best IMO. Companions just bring problems to the table. Perhaps they could also implement a feature that lets the group leader to initiate a vote for companion rolling or a token exchange for equal quality companion gear using your classes tokens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazzer Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 Originally Posted by itsmymillertime 1. its for my companion 2. i will strip the mods out 3. its for an alt all are valid reasons to roll need on something that will not apply to your current toon. i suggest you you spell out the rules as some people will use those excuses to roll need. then you got people who will vendor sell it and say if the game lets me need on it, i can and will do so. Its all about who you are and what rule set you want to use. Not everyone follows the same rule as you. find a group and establish 1 rule set so you dont get upset. Sorry, I don't think any of those are valid reasons for rolling need on an item that another member of the group can actually EQUIP right there. Under pre-established rules it is, so long as your group agrees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazzer Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 Thats all well and good but for LFG groups it should be set to Need before Greed by Bioware. Kind of like what WoW is implementing with Mists. That would be for the best IMO. Companions just bring problems to the table. Perhaps they could also implement a feature that lets the group leader to initiate a vote for companion rolling or a token exchange for equal quality companion gear using your classes tokens. You missed the bit where we use the LFG tool for the daily BH comms as a full group and random the FP, so we would be bound by the rules set into it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SanguineSphinx Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 (edited) The problem with Jugg/Mara armor is that some of the top-end Mara gear for some reason has way more endurance than Strength. Most of the community agrees that they screwed up the numbers and programming some where in there, because the Mara armor has some tanking stats while the Jugg armor has better DPS stats. Edited July 16, 2012 by SanguineSphinx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scorpienne Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 (edited) I think this one has been done to death... links below. I can summarize. 1. Your companion is an integral part of your character and SWTOR experience. You may need items for your companion just as if you were needing them for your main character. 2. You may only need for items that are an upgrade to your main character's current gear in his current spec. 3. You need for everything because nothing can stop you from doing so. As a subset of this, there are different schools of thought on needing for an item to get at the mods inside it. A. You can only need, greed, or pass on the whole and entire item. B. You may need, greed, or pass on an item based on wanting just one mod in the item. These three schools of thought are largely irreconcilable. Many people seem to believe that their way is the only right way and that everyone should have the same viewpoint and that people who don't are somehow dumb-bad-naive-greedy or just jerks. The best you can do is figure out which school the people you're PUGged up with belong to and then leave the PUG if you have incompatible views. For what it's worth, I'm a 2A. I will walk away from a PUG in a hot minute if I'm grouped with 1s or 3s. It's just not worth my limited playtime to PUG with those people. Paige ================================================================= Need vs Greed? http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=435124&highlight=greed Need, Greed, or Buy http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=398137&highlight=greed Need vs Greed for Crafting http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=384628&highlight=greed need or greed problem http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=337976&highlight=greed Companion Need vs. Greed http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=320684&highlight=greed New Loot Distribution Mode: Need Before Greed http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=216756&highlight=greed Need and Greed rolls http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=266099&highlight=greed Need, Need For Companion, Greed, Disassemble and Pass http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=260349&highlight=greed Item loots: Roll and Greed http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=243999&highlight=greed Need Vs. Greed who cares really http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=252139&highlight=greed Need Before Greed system overhaul http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=241752&highlight=greed Need -> Companion -> Greed / Disassemble > Pass http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=163806&highlight=greed Why have Need and Greed for loot? http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=186926&highlight=greed Its greed not need for a companion. http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=185558&highlight=greed [suggestion] Need, Companion, Greed. http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=174143&highlight=greed Need V. Greed for companions? http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=167414&highlight=greed Is rolling GREED just as bad as rolling NEED if you don't need the gear? http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=124107&highlight=greed Need of greed for items that can be used by companions? http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=159393&highlight=greed Need Greed need for companion http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=106306&highlight=greed Need vs. Greed http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=89537&highlight=greed Loot Need and Greed suggestions http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=70151&highlight=greed Loot rules? need and greed with companions http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=1274&highlight=greed Need and Greed... Discuss! http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=61263&highlight=greed Suggestion: NEED, PET NEED, GREED http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=51328&highlight=greed Edited July 16, 2012 by Scorpienne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loma Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 There is a simple solution to this. Most dont even know that if you hit the X on the top right corner...you pass on the item. I've seen people just hit greed thinking it was going to be ok. ... and they still won the item even though it wasnt for thier class or anything. So, if its not for your class folks hit Pass on the X and let it go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterKayote Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 You missed the bit where we use the LFG tool for the daily BH comms as a full group and random the FP, so we would be bound by the rules set into it. I dont see what your point is? If youre just in it for BH comms then you probably wont care about what gear you get. IIRC WoWs upcoming system does all the rolling and gives the gear to whoever wins. Nobody knows who got what. If its gear for pets then like I said ... either the vote for companion gear will change the tools rules or they can implement a vendor that exchanges columi/rakatta/campain level companion-only gear for your classes tokens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeypesci Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 1. its for my companion 2. i will strip the mods out 3. its for an alt all are valid reasons to roll need on something that will not apply to your current toon. i suggest you you spell out the rules as some people will use those excuses to roll need. then you got people who will vendor sell it and say if the game lets me need on it, i can and will do so. Its all about who you are and what rule set you want to use. Not everyone follows the same rule as you. find a group and establish 1 rule set so you dont get upset. Scrap 3 as you can't give it to alts as it becomes Bind On Pickup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itsmymillertime Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 Scrap 3 as you can't give it to alts as it becomes Bind On Pickup. Not all group content gear is bop. my point is still valid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterKayote Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 These three schools of thought are largely irreconcilable. Many people seem to believe that their way is the only right way and that everyone should have the same viewpoint and that people who don't are somehow dumb-bad-naive-greedy or just jerks. No they are not. First of all the most common and assumed rules are need for your character, greed for eveything else. I can guarantee you will make a lot of peoples ignore list very fast if you start rolling for pets/mod/shell/etc than you would if you actually need and use the entire item for your character. Anyone can make an excuse trying to justify themselves for but the fact is its b/s. Its nothing but an excuse which even the person who said knew what was coming. Its common courtesy, and if youre in a team of strangers, it either falls on you to propose your less common views, or follow the norm. Second is the fact that opening the doors for needing companion gear and mods is completely illogical. I myself, as a DPS Sniper, have use of mods from pretty much every single piece of class token in the game. Can I seriously justify rolling on EVERY SINGLE DROP because "Oh but I can use the Enhancement"? No! Same goes for companions. If we opened that door then anyone would be rolling for almost everything. Troopers and Bounty Hunters would be royally screwed as nearly every class has a companion that uses their gear and stats. Should we then combine both philosophies and just have a complete free for all? Obviously not. Players who behave as such are either ignorant or narcissistic (or both) players who are fully conscious of what theyre doing is wrong, and as sich should be shunned by the community as a whole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiek Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 fortunately for us the lfg tool isnt cross server at this point so there can actually be repercussions for being a greedy bastard. if it ever does go x-server, go ahead and throw principles out the window and just need everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazzer Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 I dont see what your point is? If youre just in it for BH comms then you probably wont care about what gear you get. IIRC WoWs upcoming system does all the rolling and gives the gear to whoever wins. Nobody knows who got what. If its gear for pets then like I said ... either the vote for companion gear will change the tools rules or they can implement a vendor that exchanges columi/rakatta/campain level companion-only gear for your classes tokens. Because we use the FP HMs to gear companions when if full guild groups, but also random the FP in the group finder for the comms. Placing a limitation o not being able to roll on items your class cannot use would affect our setups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterKayote Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 Because we use the FP HMs to gear companions when if full guild groups, but also random the FP in the group finder for the comms. Placing a limitation o not being able to roll on items your class cannot use would affect our setups. Hence the second part of what I said ... They could implement a group vote, or a token exchange for companion gear using your classes tokens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth-Piranha Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 i always roll need on light armor & "biometric crystal alloy" and some pugs hate me for that, some even go so far as to kick and report me... well sorry but i'm still rolling need on what i want. so stop whining and roll with me cuz thats how I roll! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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