SWTOR Senior Designer on Deception Assassins

[Echoo]

Good I'm glad people are pointing out that the Q and A was ********. I read that and was like hmmm, poor balancing, what other games can I play?

[DonCampbell]

Quite frankly I am seriously disappointed with the dev's attitude and bioware's approach or lack of to this issue. Not only is it a let down, it demonstrates a lack of customer service. Hopefully this guys boss reads this so he knows what type of goofball he has working for him. Here you go, play an assassin, spec deception, level the character to 50, oh and by the way when you hit 50 your deception spec is no longer viable and is the lowest of the melee classes. If this was Biowares intention then how bout a bit of warning so I do not waste 50 levels and I could have made a more viable character. Let me make it simple the deception assassin dps should be equal to comparably equipped marauder dps. I do not care what you have to do to fix it but I should not be lagging behind them in dps and have raid leaders prefer to take the marauder over my assassin. Our raid tonight had three assassins, two tanks and myself as deception dps, the rest of the melee dps = marauder. I know how to play deception and I am still behind marauders why is that? It is because the skill tree needs fixed...... fix it ........ get out your little dps meters and figure out a way to put us close to one another in dps. Spend more time fixing known problems and issues before you move on to the next expansion. A number of people presented viable solutions to the issue now you just need to implement the ones that will equalize deception assassins to other melee dps classes. People should want deception assassin dps in their groups and ops, their should be a demand for the class. I like playing a deception assassin, do not force me to have to tank, play some dot spec, or roll a marauder..... because quite frankly I wil find something else to do rather that play your game.

[Oneth]

Wow ..... Feels like I got punched in the gut reading the dev's answer. He's basically saying, "Darkness good, Madness good, Deception ****** in Pvp and that's how we designed it."

 

My main WAS deception spec Sin and I was pretty damned good with it. I didn't expect to jump in the middle of the fray and survive long, much less win. I ran around the edges, harassed healers, and was very helpful to the team. Now I bring our team down if I run my sin so I had to retire him for now.

 

The problem with Deception as I see it is that it takes too long to build up to its burst potential. Static charges are SLOOOOOOOOOOWWW to build up and they die too fast before they get off a good hit and can run and hide as designed. Now, pre 1.3 this was easily worked around with adrenals and relics which allowed us to either front load our burst early (esp in 0/30/11 death spec I ran as the voltaic slash is basically worthless). Now that burst from external sources has been removed, some small changes could be made imo to make them back to the glass cannon they were before.

 

Voltaic Slash - give 15% chance to crit discharge (can stack twice for 30%) rather than bonus to crit damage on shock.

Maul - move it further up in the tree and have it auto crit instead of armor pen (keeps it out of tankasins hands).

Static Charges - need to build up faster if talented like Arsenal's heat signature can. or just 2 charges needed.

 

I don't like to play Tankasin but that's THE best for PvP now with auto crit on shock so often they stack power augments. Some are hitting in ranked now for 4k shocks with a 2k chain shock when it procs an dit builds up super fast. I said I can't beat the OP FoTM so rolled pyro powertech and feel so dirty for doing so. I just want my deception sin back that was tough to play but useful

[Echoo]

Lets make sure we all pop on over to this thread and state what we think there too.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=504556

 

Its on the pvp main page. imo the dev who said this should be fired like all the other terrible devs they had to get rid of. Bad devs = obvious bad balancing.

[Xinika]

We aren't playing the class wrong, you designed it incorrectly. Listen to your customers for once.

 

Except they won't. I hate to sound negative about it, but it is obvious that they have their minds set on whatever delusional goals they see fit.

[Z-ToXiN]

Except they won't. I hate to sound negative about it, but it is obvious that they have their minds set on whatever delusional goals they see fit.

 

Yep. Sad to say this because I really do like PVP in this game but Bioware is pulling this stuff all too often and showing that they have absolutely no idea about balance and PVP. Lots of the hardcore PVPers I know have either quit already or will leave when GW2 comes out.

 

On topic: deception is bad. The devs say its hit and run, a guildie said its "pop out and get killed." We laugh at deception Assassins. They're usually not a threat and are easy to kill. Thats how it is in practice, and thats what matters, not how the devs think the (poorly designed) spec should be played.

[Griad]

I did a test run in deception spec vs my darkness spec same gear, my dps on deception was almost the same around 1100-1150 sometimes a little higer because of procs.

 

I used almost full blackhole and some rakata gear, around 39% crit, 77% surge and around 700 power with buffs and all running.

 

That is until i start having more than one mob then my darkness spec will out dps deception with quite a large margin because of wither criting for around 1800-2200 on each mob and discarge criting for aroun 1000-1200 on each mob. so for overall the ability to push more dps on a tank spec with dps gear vs a pure dps spec is flat out wrong.

 

Not saying that darkness will top dps over deception everytime but still it shouldnt come that close.

[cycao]

....I thought this was a joke after reading it just a few minutes ago. This is just plane idiotic. The spec is broken. My friend who leveled up with deception just hit valor 100 yesterday and spent all of the ranks with his spec and our rated team will not take him as the other specs offer just as much or better damage and loads more utility.

 

 

Awesome Bioware just awesome.

[arkzehhh]

I simply cannot believe that a Senior Designer just told us that one of the specs in game is PURPOSELY supposed to be completely useless (because yes, mister Austin Peckenpaugh, "lone wolf" gameplay is of no need for any player who actually wants to play a TEAM BASED GAME).

 

I'm baffled, this is beyond a joke.

 

Lol Deception need's buffed so bad...

[darkenwolf]

Except they won't. I hate to sound negative about it, but it is obvious that they have their minds set on whatever delusional goals they see fit.

 

Pretty much this.

 

Bioware, as with Bethesda before it, has lost all credibility with me as a game designer at this point. This Q&A only cements the sad fact that they've joined most of the Old Guard dev studios who can't design their way out of a wet paper bag anymore.

[scottberg]

Its too bad because Deception is the only Assassin spec I really enjoy playing.

[KiranK]

Pretty much this.

 

Bioware, as with Bethesda before it, has lost all credibility with me as a game designer at this point. This Q&A only cements the sad fact that they've joined most of the Old Guard dev studios who can't design their way out of a wet paper bag anymore.

 

It's sad when game developers actually try to justify their incompetence. Ego and stubbornness is bad for business, just ask EA's stock. Guess I won't be playing this game for much longer, given how much of disappointment rated warzones were. Bioware, please never attempt to make an MMO ever again.

[Oneth]

Yeah, reading the Q&A made me lose my last hope to ever play my beloved deception sin in high level PvP On a good note though, I may be able to get in the Planetside 2 Beta The first one was great until the stupid cavern xpac. Granted, it's Sony, but Heck, it's not like BW seems to give a crap about us either.

[timidobserver]

Not saying that darkness will top dps over deception everytime but still it shouldnt come that close.

 

Judging by the interview, we can deduce that Bioware's class design people are a bit slow. You have to be careful with making posts like this. they might take it to mean that the best solution to the problem would be to nerf darkness and make it useless as opposed to fixing deception which is what I believe you are suggesting.

[mrdert]

Please, all deception assassins, go to the class feedback thread and post in it. Try to be constructive as this is our chance to make them hear what we think is wrong with the spec.

[Griad]

Judging by the interview, we can deduce that Bioware's class design people are a bit slow. You have to be careful with making posts like this. they might take it to mean that the best solution to the problem would be to nerf darkness and make it useless as opposed to fixing deception which is what I believe you are suggesting.

 

True they might think that Dohh, hehe i just wanted to show that DPS on deception is a bit gimped.

 

I were just in a NMM EV run on my assassin, full blackhole gear, my dps topped out at around 1100 dps in most boss fights, its true that i can burst fairly good in the beginning and then the force problems start and as someone wrote i think the main issue here is that we could be much better with some more force reduction on some of our specials or more force regen. With the tank spec i can maintain a very nice sustained dps because of the high force regen.

 

On a side note my rakata/BH geared warrior in vengence spec will do around 1300 dps easy with no resource problems, to me it seems that 200 dps over an entire raid is more than the 5% they mentioned.

[dronepilot]

Hate to say "I told you so"

 

No, really ? - bet you enjoyed saying so too !

[Astarica]

I was reading an interview with Torchlight 2's lead designer and he says his job isn't to try to balance this game because that's a problem that's way too hard for anybody to do. His job is to ensure the game is fun when he plays it because then there's probably some confidence that what he finds fun means you'll find to be fun too.

 

I think every dev needs to be forced to play some of the classes they claim to design and ask themselves 'is dying in 5 seconds fun'. Most of the time I hear these interviews it's basically like: "I never played this class seriously but I think it could be pretty cool if this and that is to happen." No we don't need to know what you think might be balanced or fun. Just play the actual game and if a designer can play a Deception Assassin and say, "Wow this is awesome how I get to die faster than anyone else while doing possibly less DPS than anyone else!" I really have to question their sanity.

 

Heck, have some of the devs play a Deception Assassin against Darth Zash at a locked level under real situation (i.e. if you blow Heroic Ability please stay there another 15-20 minutes until it's back up) and if they seriously think that's 'fun', then at least this tells me the game is totally screwed so I should jump ship. I don't want to hear devs talking about how although they never tried to fight Darth Zash as a Deception Assassin it should be totally okay if you 'L2P' and do everything right.

[darkenwolf]

I was reading an interview with Torchlight 2's lead designer and he says his job isn't to try to balance this game because that's a problem that's way too hard for anybody to do. His job is to ensure the game is fun when he plays it because then there's probably some confidence that what he finds fun means you'll find to be fun too.

 

I think every dev needs to be forced to play some of the classes they claim to design and ask themselves 'is dying in 5 seconds fun'. Most of the time I hear these interviews it's basically like: "I never played this class seriously but I think it could be pretty cool if this and that is to happen." No we don't need to know what you think might be balanced or fun. Just play the actual game and if a designer can play a Deception Assassin and say, "Wow this is awesome how I get to die faster than anyone else while doing possibly less DPS than anyone else!" I really have to question their sanity.

 

Heck, have some of the devs play a Deception Assassin against Darth Zash at a locked level under real situation (i.e. if you blow Heroic Ability please stay there another 15-20 minutes until it's back up) and if they seriously think that's 'fun', then at least this tells me the game is totally screwed so I should jump ship. I don't want to hear devs talking about how although they never tried to fight Darth Zash as a Deception Assassin it should be totally okay if you 'L2P' and do everything right.

 

I wish I could like or upvote your post. Double thumbs up.

[Astarica]

Pretty much this.

 

Bioware, as with Bethesda before it, has lost all credibility with me as a game designer at this point. This Q&A only cements the sad fact that they've joined most of the Old Guard dev studios who can't design their way out of a wet paper bag anymore.

 

It happens in virtually any game with significant complexity. Basically, games nowadays are so complicated that it's virtually impossible to expect anyone to understand how the balance actually works. So what happens is we have guys who are no better than your forum posters that just say 'I never tried this, but if you do this and that maybe it'll all work out.' While that's perfectly fine as the response you get from your fellow forum users, this is not the right way to design a game. Take a week off of your designer duty if needed and roll up a fresh level 50 on a live server to see how the game actually operates.

 

While nobody knows what is truly balanced, it is fairly easy for anyone to figure out what's NOT balanced, and although we don't know what it'd take to fix certain things, at least it'll get things moving in the right direction. I can't help but to think dev balance probably goes like this:

 

Tester A: "Dev Z, people say Deception Assassin is too weak!"

Dev Z: "Okay, let me get 3 guys to roll up in full Campaign Gear and we'll teleport to the last boss in the latest FP and give it a shot"

 

(5 minutes later)

Dev Z: "Beat that boss easy. These players need to just L2P".

[scottberg]

I'd say that the next best thing to damage buffs would be to create more end-game content that caters to these type of specs. You say that Deception is not a good team player, and is more of a lone wolf/solo type so why not create more content for those type of players? You could do things like make more solo PVE end-game content with decent rewards, and/or make open world PVP more worthwhile by adding rewards/commendations for open world kills. Also how about adding arena/deathmatch type warzones that are less team oriented? Edited July 17, 2012 by scottberg

[Astarica]

I'd say that the next best thing to damage buffs would be to create more end-game content that caters to these type of specs. You say that Deception is not a good team player, and is more of a lone wolf/solo type so why not create more content for those type of players? You could do things like make more solo PVE end-game content with decent rewards, and/or make open world PVP more worthwhile by adding rewards/commendations for open world kills. Also how about adding arena/deathmatch type warzones that are less team oriented?

 

All that'd do is you'd see people say like: "At this boss that requires this special spec that otherwise we'd never have wanted, PST". After you beat your gimmick boss they'd just replace you with someone who is better than you for the non gimmick fights.

 

It's kind of like EQ1's idea of balancing weak classes is to make bosses that requires certain element of spells to hit so you got to take this guy who can cast disease spells even though he totally sucks at DPS because your best DPS can't cast disease spells at all. In reality all it does is get people to log on their alts that can cast disease type spells for that boss and then back to their main once that's over.

[XORDYH]

I'd say that the next best thing to damage buffs would be to create more end-game content that caters to these type of specs. You say that Deception is not a good team player, and is more of a lone wolf/solo type so why not create more content for those type of players? You could do things like make more solo PVE end-game content with decent rewards, and/or make open world PVP more worthwhile by adding rewards/commendations for open world kills. Also how about adding arena/deathmatch type warzones that are less team oriented?

 

The closest thing we have to "lone-wolf" end-game content right now is the Infernal Council fight in Eternity Vault. Unfortunately, even here Deception Assassins/Infiltration Shadows [and Concealment Operatives/Scrapper Scoundrels] are disadvantaged, due to each mob having incapacitation immunity. Without the ability to stun the mobs it is impossible to set up for Maul/Shadow Strike, further reducing our burst potential and sustained dps.

Edited July 17, 2012 by XORDYH

[Bpotux]

My ideas on helping deception:

 

1. Add Force Speed removing snares into deception tree, roll it into blackout, also make it so that you're immune to new slows / roots for the duration of force speed.

2. Further lower CD of Force Cloak in Dec Tree, should end up 1 min CD, still longer then Marauders. Also fix his to actually get you out of combat evey time, even with dots on.you. Having to use force shroud before vanish and still have it fail to get you out of combat is not cool.

3. Add a skill to proc a free free maul when using surging charge, 50% is still low.

 

That would make me play Dec again, that being out of the way, here's Dec video:

 

[Ahhmyface]

Well, it's nice to know what the design is. I'm not surprised that people are disappointed with it.

 

As a purely deception assassin I have to put in my 2 cents. I'd also like to echo the OP on some points.

 

My old guild wouldnt run me in rated because I wouldn't respec. So read my dedication to this spec from that.

 

I don't know how deception can be a lone wolf spec if we lose to 75% of equal gear/skill classes in a 1v1. What are we going to do off alone? Our mez would be useful except it has a combat requirement, requires stealth, and can only be applied to 1 target. It's not long enough cap... so honestly, what is this lone wolf supposed to do? Go off and 1v1 respawns and lose?

 

Ok, so lets pretend that we can kill things 1v1. How are we going to get a 1v1? There are just not enough 1v1 situations. Aside from hacking at respawns or the odd ninja node (doesn't work in rated really), the majority of the time, your team needs a player that is helping the team.

 

Last of all, what is this complete bull about falling within the 5% dps targets. Give me a break. Name a single deception sin who comes within even 20% of his teams top marauder or pt on average. There isn't one. So where are these metrics coming from? Perhaps its the fact that marauders and their ungodly defensive CDs that keep them up longer, allowing them to do damage. Perhaps it's the fact that PT range allows them to hump the safety of their healers. Deception has nothing at all to stay alive, which means that even if our dps was as high as the other DPS (and it isn't), we spend half the battle waiting to attack something without it being a suicide.

 

I will admit that deception has powerful lockdown abilities, and having taunts on a dps with decent mobility can be a fun treat, but alas, it all comes down to the fact that we don't have enough utlity to justify our shabby dps and defense.

 

Pretty much the only thing deception is good for is solo defending a node by mind-trap, and even that is better done by concealment ops.

 

All this being said, I am determined to find a way to make it work, if i'm the last one left, i'll do it.

Edited July 18, 2012 by Ahhmyface