Power or Strength augments?

[ddot]

Im a Lvl 50 Marauder. Ive been crafting and collecting materials to put Augment Slots on all my items. Ive been making the purple might Augments that add strength and endurance. As ive continued getting better gear, ive been noticing something. Prehaps its my imagination, but if somoene who knows could enlighten me, id appriciate it.

 

What I have noticed is if I add items that add power, my Damage on my stat sheet seems to go up more then if I put the same amount of strength into my items (like with augments). I was reading on the stat sheet as to what power added, and it seems takes a lot less power to add the bonus damage then it does for the same amount of strength. I know strength has more effect then just damage, but as a DPS is Power stronger?

 

Am I imagining the difference? Or would it make sense to change out all 14 Slots of my strength Augments to the ones that add +Power and Endurance? Is strength far superior, so stack that always? Or should I stack every bit of power I can get my hands on? (assuming Ive reached the various soft caps of crit, Accu, Surge, ect)

[Omophorus]

We just need a frickin' sticky to keep this answered once and for all, since there are probably 5 of these threads on the first 2 pages.

 

The difference, for Marauder, is very small, but STR is the optimal choice.

 

Point-for-point, Power has a slightly larger impact on Bonus Damage. So yes, you will see more Bonus Damage by using Power augments.

 

Power gets buffed once by class buffs (Unnatural Might), whilst STR gets buffed twice (Unnatural Might + Mark of Power), and the result is that much of the per-point gap on Bonus Damage is negated, and STR still adds Crit% whilst Power does not.

 

The end result is that slightly less Bonus Damage and slightly higher Crit% is a net gain over slightly higher Bonus Damage and slightly lower Crit%, because the gap in Crit% is larger than the gap in Bonus Damage.

[Salionus]

I for one have found that my DPS does go down when I change my PWR augments to STR augments in my end-game gear. But the amount of difference is statistically insignificant. Edited July 13, 2012 by Salionus
typo

[Omophorus]

I for one have found that my DPS does go down when I change my PWR augments to STR augments in my end-game gear. But the amount of difference is statistically insignificant.

 

Nitpicking, but if the difference is statistically insignificant, you should not find that your DPS goes down.

 

Mathematically, STR is superior, and any DPS decreases observed are a result of normal variance and are not indicative of the greater trend.

 

That said, it's a fraction of a percentage point difference regardless, so it truly is insignificant.

 

I would not recommend removing Power augments for STR augments, but I wouldn't recommend putting in new Power augments over new STR augments.

[ddot]

ok....that makes sense. So if I have the two buffs, I end up better off because my strength is affected by both. The perfect gear is the +power and +strength. But dont give up strength for power. right?

[Salionus]

ok....that makes sense. So if I have the two buffs, I end up better off because my strength is affected by both. The perfect gear is the +power and +strength. But dont give up strength for power. right?

 

Correct, the only time you would choose between STR and PWR is for your augments.

 

On for mods/enh you want to always make sure your getting the low END high other stats (STR/PWR STR/CRT) versions if you can.

[Rehme]

Correct me if Im wrong but the only time you'd consider going power over strength would be once you've gotten your crit chance to 30% unbuffed. I would think you'd want to stack as much powah as possible at that point otherwise you'd be going into DRs with strength (STR applies a small perc increase to crit chance). As an Anni spec I know berserk gives me 100% chance to crit on bleeds however I want to maximixe crit chance on my bursty abilities like annihilate and ravage as well hence my reasoning for increasing crit chance to 30%. Thats my rationale when deciding between STR vs Powah. Edited July 16, 2012 by Rehme

[tausser]

On for mods/enh you want to always make sure your getting the low END high other stats (STR/PWR STR/CRT) versions if you can.

 

You mean like the choice between, say, a 41 Str/27 End and a 41 Str/39 End, go with the first one?

 

But are you speaking here mainly about PvP or high-end end-game stuff or would that also apply for PvE solo'ing with companion as well?

 

I always chose the high End stuff myself but I only do PvE, mostly with comp healer.

[Varicite]

You mean like the choice between, say, a 41 Str/27 End and a 41 Str/39 End, go with the first one?

 

But are you speaking here mainly about PvP or high-end end-game stuff or would that also apply for PvE solo'ing with companion as well?

 

I always chose the high End stuff myself but I only do PvE, mostly with comp healer.

 

You'll never have a choice that is 41 Str / 27 End and 41 Str / 39 End, your choice will always be more like:

 

41 Str / 27 End -or- 30 Str / 39 End.

 

If there is higher Endurance, you will ALWAYS have a lower secondary stat, which will lower your DPS. From a DPS standpoint, you should never choose the high-endurance version of two equal-quality items.

[Malimoo]

i'm not so sure about that theory, if you gain more damage from power than you do from str, and say as anni pve, where crit isnt very important, why do you need that extra crit?

 

Even as carnage i prefer to keep the power augments in, with those power augments i can keep about 1k+ power while staying near 2k str. without those augments i'd have higher str, witch is no doubt reaching some kind of DR, or mathematical downward spiral for the crit it gives you.

 

I prefer power because i can stack it till its on every peice of my gear and every new bit of power i get i see my damage go up, that doesnt happen with str.

[tausser]

41 Str / 27 End -or- 30 Str / 39 End.

 

From a DPS standpoint, you should never choose the high-endurance version of two equal-quality items.

 

Yes, sorry, had those 2nd numbers reversed. (I was thinking of the AC124 pieces 47 <main>/33 End and 41 End/39 <main> when I wrote that.)

 

I understand about the main stat contributing to higher DPS but my question was, is that more important in context of PvP or high-end end-game play than in PvE or would you still recommend that for general PvE as well?

 

We see that loading screen tip that says higher endurance means you can take more damage before becoming incapacitated (I assume that means dying) so i usually take the higher End choice. I must not be alone in that, if armor mod availability on the GTN is any indicator, because Might mods are always more plentiful (and cheaper) than Guardian mods.

 

I was in a coupl of Ops groups today for world bosses (something I rarely do) so I took the opportunity to look at the other people and saw some of them had really high HP. I would have thought that comes from loading up on End but is there a way to have high End while also having high DPS?

 

I know the new augment system will contribute to that (with the ability to augment-ize everything) but, again, I'm speaking as someone who's topped off with the 126 mods from Ilum and hasn't gone beyond the dailies there and on Belsavis.

[nosmos]

If you mainly PVP and are running around in pvp gear - scoping out people who are pve geared, they will naturally have more health then you. PVP gear trades main stat and health for expertise

[nezitx]

For DPS, you want the biggest bang for your buck - which means the lowest end.

 

Deft Mod 26A:

68 Str, 41 End, 12 Power (68+12 = 80)

 

Deft Mod 26B:

41 Str, 53 End, 32 Power (41+32 = 73)

 

Deft Mod 26:

53 Str, 32 End, 41 Power (53+41 = 94) <--------------- Winner

 

1 Str is very very slightly better than 1 power. You can easily consider them equal for this test.

[Malimoo]

I changed my mind, str augments are better.

 

that is all...

[CrankyBuddha]

Nitpicking, but if the difference is statistically insignificant, you should not find that your DPS goes down.

 

Mathematically, STR is superior, and any DPS decreases observed are a result of normal variance and are not indicative of the greater trend.

 

That said, it's a fraction of a percentage point difference regardless, so it truly is insignificant.

 

I would not recommend removing Power augments for STR augments, but I wouldn't recommend putting in new Power augments over new STR augments.

 

If we're taking normal variance into account here, then that means that 'mathematically' they are close enough to be called the same. So its really just a matter of preference/availability at the end of the day

[Thundergulch]

I changed my mind, str augments are better.

 

that is all...

 

Better for what? PVP? Carnage? Rage?

 

I'm Annihilation, and I can tell you that I parse 100-200 higher on the ops dummy with all Power augments versus Strength augments.

I've swapped them out twice to make sure, and ran multiple tests with ops runs and a minimum of 4 minute parses.

Power augments yield higher dps than Strength augments at my gear level which is full Black Hole,and with Rakata hilts.

 

Right now,self buffed, 1121 Power and 1735 Str. with Rakata Stim.

When I was testing Strength, I was over 2200 Str raid buffed with about 735 Power, and my dps output was 100-200 lower.

If everyone's math is correct where they say Str is better, then I'd sure like to know how that is possible when my parses prove otherwise.

Edited July 19, 2012 by Thundergulch

[TradeLA]

Better for what? PVP? Carnage? Rage?

 

I'm Annihilation, and I can tell you that I parse 100-200 higher on the ops dummy with all Power augments versus Strength augments.

I've swapped them out twice to make sure, and ran multiple tests with ops runs and a minimum of 4 minute parses.

Power augments yield higher dps than Strength augments at my gear level which is full Black Hole,and with Rakata hilts.

 

Right now,self buffed, 1121 Power and 1735 Str. with Rakata Stim.

When I was testing Strength, I was over 2200 Str raid buffed with about 735 Power, and my dps output was 100-200 lower.

If everyone's math is correct where they say Str is better, then I'd sure like to know how that is possible when my parses prove otherwise.

It matches my tests with the same gear set-up and Carnage, which suggest crit isn't worth trading power for once crit is about 30% raid buffed. That reduces the value of the crit bonus from STR, which, I think has been shown, has a DR curve as well...

 

...by the way, what numbers are you getting on those tests?

[Thundergulch]

...by the way, what numbers are you getting on those tests?

 

With Power augments = about 1600 every time give or take a few

With Str augments = 1450-1500 approx.

[HoLyHeLLo]

This thread has alot of controversy about str vs power. I have been playing a marauder and sentinel since beta and let me tell you I have alot of experience with the classes. The question everyone should be asking is what is the cap rate for crit, surge, or even power. I read that the cap for us marauders is 30% crit, 75% surge after that the amount diminishes (If some one can inform me other wise please do). I also have not seen anything about a cap for power.

 

Lets look at the rates:

1) if we try to get more str after we hit the cap we will be getting a lower percentage than when we did before the cap (I think it is like .50% less I'm not sure).

2) Str actually gives us less bonus damage than power does (i think power gives us about .20% more)

3) once again there is no cap for power. (I am actually at like 948 bonus damage buffed)

4) once you get your black hole gear you want to switch out the mods with other mods from other warrior gears such as a juggernauts dps gear (they help alot)

 

I'm just trying to give you guys an idea of making your marauder beastly. This is jsut a quick guide becaue I'm at class right now lol. But figure out the math and you will know.

[Aurojiin]

With Power augments = about 1600 every time give or take a few

With Str augments = 1450-1500 approx.

There is absolutely no way that the difference between Strength and Power augments is around 100-150 dps. 10-15 maybe, but your figures are genuinely impossible. Something else is going on in your tests.

[Thundergulch]

There is absolutely no way that the difference between Strength and Power augments is around 100-150 dps. 10-15 maybe, but your figures are genuinely impossible. Something else is going on in your tests.

 

Then I'd sure like to know what it is... same fully raid buffed tests on the Ops dummy. It's not like it's hard to parse that fight lol.

[Okamakiri]

This thread has alot of controversy about str vs power. I have been playing a marauder and sentinel since beta and let me tell you I have alot of experience with the classes. The question everyone should be asking is what is the cap rate for crit, surge, or even power. I read that the cap for us marauders is 30% crit, 75% surge after that the amount diminishes (If some one can inform me other wise please do). I also have not seen anything about a cap for power.

 

Lets look at the rates:

1) if we try to get more str after we hit the cap we will be getting a lower percentage than when we did before the cap (I think it is like .50% less I'm not sure).

2) Str actually gives us less bonus damage than power does (i think power gives us about .20% more)

3) once again there is no cap for power. (I am actually at like 948 bonus damage buffed)

4) once you get your black hole gear you want to switch out the mods with other mods from other warrior gears such as a juggernauts dps gear (they help alot)

 

I'm just trying to give you guys an idea of making your marauder beastly. This is jsut a quick guide becaue I'm at class right now lol. But figure out the math and you will know.

 

For the longest time I too believed Power > Strength. However, recently I have concluded that Strength is superior after all. To calculate DPS, you cannot simply look at what adds the most raw damage, you have to consider all stats that affect DPS, hence crit, surge and accuracy as well.

 

1) That is actually incorrect. Crit bonus from Str has nothing to do with your overall crit rate. Each stat has its own diminishing returns and on its own scale. Diminishing returns on crit bonus from main stat is actually very very low. See charts here for details.

 

2) In terms of raw weapon damage, Power is better, but only by about 9.5% after factoring in Inq buff. Str has multiplier of 0.21 (0.2 * 1.05), while Power has 0.23. However, the crit bonus from Str cannot be ignored. Even at almost 2.2k Str, I still gained well over 1% crit by changing all my augments from Power to Str, yet my weapon damage only went down 5 pts (53 weapon dmg vs 58).

 

3) Power is a linear stat. However, its relation to other stats is not, i.e. the more crit, surge and accuracy you have, the more value is given to Power and vice versa, since they affect how often you get higher multiplier from that Power (due to crits) and how rarely your multiplier is zero (due to misses).

 

4) Agreed. Itemization for all classes is terrible and requires purchasing many duplicate pieces and even other class gear to get optimal armorings, mods and enhancements.

 

 

I could post my own napkin math, but I'll just copy and paste a post I saw in another thread

 

---------------------------------------------

For either Combat or Watchman, Strength and Power are within about 5% of each other in overall DPS effect, but Strength is always better for any currently attainable gear level.

 

In addition to the critical bonus, Strength is buffed twice (+5% to the stat from Consular buff, then +5% to the resulting damage bonus from the Knight buff), while Power is only buffed once. So in terms of the damage bonus alone, the numbers to compare are 0.2415/Power vs. 0.2205/Strength. But the bigger your damage bonus (and thus, the bigger your base damage), the more valuable critical chance becomes.

 

DR on the critical bonus from primary stats is very minor. At 2000 Strength, you are still getting about 2/3's of the raw Critical Bonus (i.e. compared to no DR).

 

I have run a full simulation of days of combat, but you can see how Strength makes up the difference in damage bonus by doing a fairly simple calculation.

 

Suppose, with your current stats, with buffs, an ability does tooltip damage X and has a damage bonus coefficient of 1.5 (this is approximately the value for abilities like Blade Rush and Blade Storm). And suppose you have a choice of 14x (+16 Power) or (+16 Strength) augments (+224 of either stat).

 

With +224 Power, the base damage of the ability (including the Knight buff) will be about X+81

 

With +224 Strength, the base damage of the ability (including the Knight and Consular buffs) will be X+74

 

Lets suppose you have a 33% Critical Chance, and a 75% Critical Multiplier bonus (a number of key abilities gain added critical damage from talents, which makes Strength's critical bonus even better, but we will ignore that).

 

With Power, the expected damage of the ability is then (X +81)*(1+0.33*0.75) = (X + 81)*1.25 = 1.25*X + 101

 

With Strength, assuming you have around 2K Strength, 224 Strength will increase your critical chance by about 1.2%. So the expected damage is (X + 74) * (1+0.342*0.75) = 1.2565*X + 93.

 

The difference (Strength - Power) is then:

 

0.0065*X - 8

 

So strength will win (i.e. the difference will be positive) when:

 

0.0065 * X > 8, or when X > 1230

 

At level 50, abilities that matter have a base tooltip damage > 1200; hence, for those abilities, Strength beats Power.

 

Power benefits from a high coefficient, but abilities with a high coefficient also have high tooltip damage.

 

Master Strike, for instance, has a coefficient of around 3 (rather than the 1.5 I assumed above), so the damage difference (Strength - Power) in that case is:

 

0.0065*X - 16

 

But X is several thousand for Master Strike, and Strength still wins.

Edited July 19, 2012 by Okamakiri

[vimm]

Correct me if Im wrong but the only time you'd consider going power over strength would be once you've gotten your crit chance to 30% unbuffed. I would think you'd want to stack as much powah as possible at that point otherwise you'd be going into DRs with strength (STR applies a small perc increase to crit chance). As an Anni spec I know berserk gives me 100% chance to crit on bleeds however I want to maximixe crit chance on my bursty abilities like annihilate and ravage as well hence my reasoning for increasing crit chance to 30%. Thats my rationale when deciding between STR vs Powah.

 

Your main stat is not on the same DR as crit gain. You can't really hit DR with main stat.

[HoLyHeLLo]

you know all these posts of heres the math and blah blah blah, we need to see some pics of a Marauders parsar. So post some pics of the parsar and what your stats were when recording. Lets show our strengths and powers of the all mighty MARAUDERS / SENTINELS!!!!

[NoTomorrow]

marauders and asassins dont have main stat buffing skills. You get less total STR from the STR augments than a sniper for example that can easily spec into 9% extra cunning. thanks to this skill we can negate the power advantage of Power augents over Cunning augments and thus have the extra crit from cunning as a bonus.

 

You dont have this, so in your case there is no optimal choice. I would go for power in case of maras and asassins.

Edited August 2, 2012 by NoTomorrow