Just dinged 50 ... What should be the gear discrepancy

[Koppster]

Again WOW (The most successful MMO in history) has MAJOR gear discrepencies and PVP is a huge part of their game.

 

PvP might be popular, but take current WoW subscriber numbers and the actual amount of those players competing in rated PvP and I doubt even .1% have 2200+ rating in arena or rbg's.

 

What we have in this game is a massive gear/damage gap between new players in the 50's bracket and the basement dwelling entitled elitists that can hit 3 hotkeys and annihilate recruit-geared opponents.

 

That isn't balanced by any stretch of the imagination. I've been killed in 2-3 seconds from stealth as a fresh lvl 50. I guarantee you a vast amount of people will either stop queuing for warzones, or ragequit the game after experiences like that. How is that going to help TOR survive?

[platinumruggo]

I have a JK at level 50 and I've been circulating other characters and leveling them up on both imp and pub side. I don't know but I just do not want to play as a JK in pvp lol.

[Darth_Philar]

Ok that is YOUR opinion, however, don't say "Actual" pvp players resent it cause the Arena system and PVP is WOW is very popular. I like a system where I have to earn my gear personally.....I don't get bored nearly as easy. That is my opinion and that is all that it is.

 

That's not an opinion, that the definition of the terms.

 

Player versus Player is any competitive system in which the skill of the player or combined skills of multiple players determines the outcome of an engagement. Gear, Class, Spec, and Composition all reduce the amount of player skill needed as they all provide statistical advantages. When the classes aren't even balanced those advantages become even more evident.

 

Character versus Character is what you play and what you enjoy. Nothing wrong with that. Just don't call it what it isn't.

[Macabrae]

PvP might be popular, but take current WoW subscriber numbers and the actual amount of those players competing in rated PvP and I doubt even .1% have 2200+ rating in arena or rbg's.

 

What we have in this game is a massive gear/damage gap between new players in the 50's bracket and the basement dwelling entitled elitists that can hit 3 hotkeys and annihilate recruit-geared opponents.

 

That isn't balanced by any stretch of the imagination. I've been killed in 2-3 seconds from stealth as a fresh lvl 50. I guarantee you a vast amount of people will either stop queuing for warzones, or ragequit the game after experiences like that. How is that going to help TOR survive?

 

New players In WOW have to get their basic set before even LOOKING at Arenas, and they all have to "Earn" theirs unlike this game which is given to you.

[Macabrae]

That's not an opinion, that the definition of the terms.

 

Player versus Player is any competitive system in which the skill of the player or combined skills of multiple players determines the outcome of an engagement. Gear, Class, Spec, and Composition all reduce the amount of player skill needed as they all provide statistical advantages. When the classes aren't even balanced those advantages become even more evident.

 

Character versus Character is what you play and what you enjoy. Nothing wrong with that. Just don't call it what it isn't.

 

 

Sounds like you need to play an FPS.....not an MMO.

[Darth_Philar]

Sounds like you need to play an FPS.....not an MMO.

 

Many FPS games have actual PvP, and some MMOs do as well. It is when the MMORPGs try to blend RPG and PvP that CvC always appears. And again, there is nothing wrong with having CvC or enjoying it. Just don't call it what it isn't.

[Nolenthar]

In a good PvP system, there is no gear discrepancy because there is no gear (at least no stats from gear).

 

There are 3 kinds of MMO players:

1. PvE - These guys want gear progression because it defines the RPG genre. They also don't like PvP.

2. CvC - Character versus Character. These guys want gear progression because it makes them better able to beat other people without need to actually outskill them, they simply need to outgear them. They like to kill other players but they want their character's class, spec, team, and gear to do most of the work for them.

3. PvP - These guys are the minority as they want no RPG elements mucking up their game. They also make up such a small portion of the paying subscriber base that their position is largely ignored (GW did a decent job of catering to these guys, but still not perfect).

 

Games like SWTOR and WOW cater to the first two groups but not the third. We don't have PvP in this game. What we and BW call PvP is actually CvC.

 

That is a very true fact, however good luck putting some sense in people who prefers CvC (which is all fine, but don't call skill killing someone in recruit gear with a fully augmented WH BT).

[Koppster]

New players In WOW have to get their basic set before even LOOKING at Arenas, and they all have to "Earn" theirs unlike this game which is given to you.

 

Yep and WoW also has the matchmaking system, which this game lacks. That's the big problem.

[Macabrae]

Yep and WoW also has the matchmaking system, which this game lacks. That's the big problem.

 

LMAO you mean when I hit 50 on my alt and go into the Arena the first time and get a 2000 rated team? How about the system everyone exploits their MMO rating for their matchmaking system? You mean that matchmaking system?

[IIIGinoIII]

Let's stay on target for this topic. Last night myself and a friend who play as healer/DPS combo were playing on Alderaan. We had 4 go right, two left and myself and my friend middle. There were 6 enemies that went middle. Thinking we will last no more than 20 seconds. We were in the middle for a good 3 minutes before we died. As funny as it is feeling invincible, I could guarantee these guys had to be Recruit Geared out. My friend and myself are only half way through to Ranked gear. This big discrepency needs to change. How is that fun for the new PvP players? Who would want to be a PvP player after getting wrecked match after match?

[Macabrae]

Let's stay on target for this topic. Last night myself and a friend who play as healer/DPS combo were playing on Alderaan. We had 4 go right, two left and myself and my friend middle. There were 6 enemies that went middle. Thinking we will last no more than 20 seconds. We were in the middle for a good 3 minutes before we died. As funny as it is feeling invincible, I could guarantee these guys had to be Recruit Geared out. My friend and myself are only half way through to Ranked gear. This big discrepency needs to change. How is that fun for the new PvP players? Who would want to be a PvP player after getting wrecked match after match?

 

So? Let them take a couple days and "Earn" their gear like the rest of us and stop crying.

[Koppster]

Was thinking more along the lines of the fact that it's rare to have pug's matched with premades and there are also gearchecks.

 

It isn't perfect and it does get unstuck sometimes, but at least they try and it's better than the fail that is 22k hp+ fully augmented WH hero premades versus 13k scrubs in recruit getting 2-3 shotted that we see in TOR.

[IIIGinoIII]

So? Let them take a couple days and "Earn" their gear like the rest of us and stop crying.

 

A couple of days? Not when you are losing every match cause you can't help your team with your crappy gear. People do have family and a job believe it or not.

 

That wasn't my point. My point is those peope are pretty useless and playing with 3 or 4 down each match. Especially cause you get these type of people. http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=502914

[Alizaro]

I don't mean to be mean but I think a lot of the discrepancy isn't gear it's practice. If you pvp sub 50 a lot, you'll do ok at 50 with recruit gear. I hit 275k right after 1.2 rolled out as a fresh 50, 2nd match as a marauder. (yaya op) I did have the luxury of having a rank 78 jug, devils advocate here.

 

I had a guildie playing marauder at 50 for 2 months prior who couldn't break 100k damage.

 

I'll be happy to check in in about a week when my next alt hits 50. When someone complains about getting smashed at fresh 50, ask them how many wins they have, or how many kills. It'll likely tell you why the beatings are so brutal.

[Varicite]

A couple of days? Not when you are losing every match cause you can't help your team with your crappy gear. People do have family and a job believe it or not.

 

That wasn't my point. My point is those peope are pretty useless and playing with 3 or 4 down each match. Especially cause you get these type of people. http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=502914

 

Nobody loses every match, quit exaggerating. We all get bad streaks, but the odds of you having a full Recruit geared team that causes you to lose every single match every day are extremely slim.

 

I have a family and a job and got my full BM + augs in 2 days.

 

You can easily do it in a week or so playing very casually.

[IIIGinoIII]

Nobody loses every match, quit exaggerating. We all get bad streaks, but the odds of you having a full Recruit geared team that causes you to lose every single match every day are extremely slim.

 

You can easily do it in a week or so playing very casually.

 

Please come to my server and play a few with me. I will pay for your server transfer. I will use my new level 50 in recruit gear.

[SlimsPicken]

I do agree that Recruit should have been a bit better. Still have no idea why they didn't just update the stats on Centurion gear and let that be the entry-level gear.

 

Honestly, the recruit gear should be extreme on the expertise, and light on real stats, while the WH should be heavy on real stats, with a solid amount of expertise, but less than recruit to balance the fact it has over 5k more hps and tons more main/offstat.

 

That way recruits might actually have a 5% or something damage/reduction stat over a WH, but overall the numbers are in the WHs favor by far, just not by like 30% as it is right now... currently WH+ has not only WAY more main/off stat, but also way more expertise, which just makes it exponetially better than recruit or even BM unaugmented.

 

If recruit gear actually gave you a slight damage reduction edge through expertise it might go some way towards balancing out the massive HP and stat gain advantage of WH+ gear. Recruits need the boost, while WH+ players are already seasoned and should have the skill advantage, and the stat advantage, just not the expertise advantage as well which really makes them untouchable.

[Rogoo]

blah blah blah blah blah.

 

Do warzones for a week and get full bm, then it''s not so bad. We all did it, you can too. Some of us actually did it when it was pure luck if you got a BM token.

 

Blah, blah, blah. Gear discrepancy is killing the fun of the game.

 

Skill based PvP > Grind based PvP.

[Khoraji]

Blah, blah, blah. Gear discrepancy is killing the fun of the game.

 

Skill based PvP > Grind based PvP.

 

Skill Based + Gear based pvp > Skill based PvP if you like MMORPG's...

[MadBernieSkills]

As bad as it is now, it is better than before. When I dinged my tankasn months ago I had to work my way to the lowest level of gear. I got destroyed. Now I dinged my op and got my recruit + 1 WH and 1 BM piece right away. It was fine. Sure, one on one, most likely you are going to die. If you are on a bad team, you will do horribly. If you are on a good team, you will not be a burden. Just pick your battles and stick to your roles. It doesn't take long for BM gear.

I don't like getting hit for 6+K on instant hits though, that kind of sucks.

[Roysten]

Have to agree, that the recruit gear is dreadful.

 

The health gap is to big.

 

The other stats should have a gap if people really need a grind to play, but the low health turns the recruits into a free kill.

 

I levelled 2 alts through this nonsense taking the wh mainhand with the tokens collected, and while it doesnt take long to grab a couple of bm armour pieces up until you get them you are dead weight in a wz..

[Raggok]

Many FPS games have actual PvP, and some MMOs do as well. It is when the MMORPGs try to blend RPG and PvP that CvC always appears. And again, there is nothing wrong with having CvC or enjoying it. Just don't call it what it isn't.

 

Very good posts from you.

 

When a game has RPG elements it's gameplay is going to fall somewhere between CvC and PvP. It can never be full PvP because it has different classes, which is fine by me because I like a game having different classes. What I don't like (and I'm not alone) is when gear becomes too big of a decider in the outcome of fights.

 

I think it would be good to view the dynamic on a sliding scale. People who defend gear disparity and time-sink gear progression would be closer to the CvC side of the scale.

 

CvC||---X----------------||PvP

 

While those who want skill and execution to be more of a factor in determining the outcome of fights are on the other side of the scale.

 

CvC||-----------------X---||PvP

 

For those who tell the more PvP inclined people to go play a FPS, you are wrong. MMORPG developers have full control of where their game ends up falling on this scale. It's just the sad case that they almost always (especially over time) fall to the CvC side of things. I believe that is because they are subscription-based and they really NEED those neverending carrots-on-the-stick and timesinks to keep peope invested in their game. It's harder to step away from a game that you have invested so much time and work into playing.

 

Now, those who are more on the PvP side of things aren't interested in carrots-on-the-stick and gear progression. They will PVP just for the sake of PvP. They don't need rewards or gear advantages as an incentive. If the PvP is dynamic and fun they will continue to play the game. Developers have almost completely ignored this style of player for a very long time. But, that time is coming to end. Games that are too reliant on gear will never see this particular group of players again after August.

Edited July 11, 2012 by Raggok

[IIIGinoIII]

Now, those who are more on the PvP side of things aren't interested in carrots-on-the-stick and gear progression. They will PVP just for the sake of PvP. They don't need rewards or gear advantages as an incentive. If the PvP is dynamic and fun they will continue to play the game. Developers have almost completely ignored this style of player for a very long time. But, that time is coming to end. Games that are too reliant on gear will never see this particular group of players again after August.

 

BRAVO!!!! Standing O!!!

[Keblitis]

Very good posts from you.

 

When a game has RPG elements it's gameplay is going to fall somewhere between CvC and PvP. It can never be full PvP because it has different classes, which is fine by me because I like a game having different classes. What I don't like (and I'm not alone) is when gear becomes too big of a decider in the outcome of fights.

 

I think it would be good to view the dynamic on a sliding scale. People who defend gear disparity and time-sink gear progression would be closer to the CvC side of the scale.

 

CvC||---X----------------||PvP

 

While those who want skill and execution to be more of a factor in determining the outcome of fights are on the other side of the scale.

 

CvC||-----------------X---||PvP

 

For those who tell the more PvP inclined people to go play a FPS, you are wrong. MMORPG developers have full control of where their game ends up falling on this scale. It's just the sad case that they almost always (especially over time) fall to the CvC side of things. I believe that is because they are subscription-based and they really NEED those neverending carrots-on-the-stick and timesinks to keep peope invested in their game. It's harder to step away from a game that you have invested so much time and work into playing.

 

Now, those who are more on the PvP side of things aren't interested in carrots-on-the-stick and gear progression. They will PVP just for the sake of PvP. They don't need rewards or gear advantages as an incentive. If the PvP is dynamic and fun they will continue to play the game. Developers have almost completely ignored this style of player for a very long time. But, that time is coming to end. Games that are too reliant on gear will never see this particular group of players again after August.

 

Hey. You know what's cool? Launching StarCraft II, or Halo, or Call of Duty, or Yahoo checkers online, etc. and playing a few games with the 100s of other people who have all the same tool set as you. Then, when you are all done playing, you turn it off and forget about it, only to start all over again from square one the next time you feel like playing a static, empty game... See where I'm going with this?

 

I believe the word of the day is 'Progression'.

 

What entertains me the most, is how the crying will never stop. In the beginning, people didn't like how they had to 'earn' tokens to gain Centurion/Champion gear, and had to PvP with their lame quest greens for weeks on top of weeks. So, BW eliminates the zero exp PvPer, and puts out a set that you just straight up buy, no time invested, no nothing. What happens? Kids still cry their eyes out about that. Now, it's FREE, and you still whine.

 

You think you guys in full recruit gear get face-melted by Augmented WH's? Hardly. Try stepping into a WZ with ZERO expertise, none of your gear is rated over 100, and getting straight rocked by full BM's. You get it? All the guys you piss and moan at for wrecking you in their WH went through the same, if not worse, than you.

 

You want to be on equal footing as a full Aug WH? Earn the gear like they did, and you will.

[DakotaDoc]

Still in mostly recruit gear myself. i had to buy it, then 1.3 gave me a token to buy it. Already had two sets. i have a few items that are BM. But PVP < 50 was so much more fun. I have a hard time getting myself to play PVP with my 50 Sage. I have seen far too often a WH equipped player leave a PVP group at the start of the round because he sees mostly recruit or less geared players. So what happens next is a beat-down. Worse, getting beat-down = giving the better equipped players better gear and you just get a sore backside.....

 

That is why i would rather play LVL 49 or less PVP. Then everyone's base stats are LVL 49

Edited July 11, 2012 by DakotaDoc