What's wrong with Operatives?

Ryemfoh · July 25, 2012

Using the design concept argument is silly, and is basically saying "Oh, it's fine for the game to be imbalanced, since the classes are designed that way." Good luck having a successful game with that philosophy!

I saw this video last week and thought of the people on this forum ... and then I saw your comment and it reminded me to link the video

Raw damage numbers certainly aren't everything in a WZ, but that doesn't mean there isn't a point where a class is not doing enough raw damage to be balanced. To say that raw damage is unimportant in a WZ, as a DPS class, is just plain stupid. Raw damage is the most important thing of all, as a Concealment Op. Aside from buying a few seconds with sleep dart, raw damage is absolutely crucial for successful objective control.

Not really ... Control is the most important thing for objective control. Operatives have this in bags. We also have stealth which you keep saying is a crutch, but I really find it hard to believe that you actually think that. A player adept at using stealth well can single-handedly turn a match. If you believe otherwise you haven't played as many games as you claim to have played.

Here's some more anecdotal evidence for you from my 6 PuG matches today (3 Voidstar, 3 Civil War - I was partied with a Tankassin friend). Using stealth, against better teams in all but the last game, between the 2 of us we managed:

4 door caps in Civil War (would have been 5, but some Jugg started capping one with me so I switched to stopping respawns from interrupting)
2 Bridge caps (both with Tankassin sprint, me slowing/distracting)
1 dismantle
6 turret caps (4x grass, 2x mid)
All 6 games won, 2 pretty close but the rest comfortable.

The last Civil War was the only one where we didn't lose a turret at any point, in all the other matches we were out-damaged and out-healed by the 'pub team (they were semi-premade with probably the best Sentinel and his PT friend boosting their stats). In all the matches the co-ordinated use of stealth won us the match - between the 2 of us, we capped every single objective over 6 games (excluding snow).

No, they weren't all solo/duo caps against noob defenders either; 2 doors (and the dismantle) and 1 turret were sneak caps on a heavily contested objective. On all matches except the 2nd Voidstar I had one of the lowest damage figures, but one of the highest objective scores. In the 2nd Voidstar match I had a respectable ~270k damage and 43 kills to 6 deaths because after capping the first door and bridge we were dominated at the 2nd door and I switched into damage-mode. I spent most of the defending phase in stealth, only popping out when there was no-one else around to interrupt.

You agree that Operatives need tweaking, just like the rest of us. So why do you keep making these types of posts? Seems to me like you try to argue that operatives are just fine, but then turn around and say that they need tweaking. So which is it?

It's people like you that are hindering any tweaks being made to Concealment Ops.

The tweaking is predominantly needed in PVE, not PVP - and I think should come in the form a minor sustained damage boost (maybe increase DoT or RS damage by ~100dps).

In PVP you just need to find a role you feel comfortable with. I've italicised that bit because I think you have rightly pointed out that for many players, that has resulted in a switch to med spec. I'm not going to comment on whether that is a good thing or not since I believe that if they had chosen to stay in DPS spec they would eventually have figured out how to be effective - but not everyone in MMO's has that kind of patience these days (I blame WoW). I know that you have already done this, I have watched your video (looking forward to more), and can see how you end with the kinds of damage numbers that turn heads.

I have never claimed that the class is perfect, but I honestly think that most of the complaints and suggestions that people make on these forums are based off a fundamental misunderstanding of the class. Heck, I also thought that we were a "bursty-stabby-stealthy" class at the start, but I have adapted my play to use more of our available tools as I've learned how to use them effectively. Why should BW pander to people crying for their "IWIN" button back? Or people who dismiss our many tools without even learning to use them effectively?

Edited July 25, 2012 by Ryemfoh

Dissentus · July 25, 2012

My madness assassin does a much better job than concealment operative does. Both of my operative and assassin are fairly equally geared in pvp.

And why did you bring pre-1.1 up which is irrelevant now? That existed in beta for a couple years and BW ignored that until after release to change it. Sad part is they nerfed acid blade and such before nerfing surge, they should've changed surge first and guage how operative were doing after. That 8900 hidden strike was most likely from stacking 120% surge.

Let's not forget that for a short time after 1.2, merc's heatseeker missile was doing 8500-9000 damage and devs broke it after.

Not only surge, but buff stacking was pretty insane as well back then, further skewing things. I feel operatives/scoundrels needed adjustments, but they should have taken the other factors into consideration, unlike they did. The one thing I totally agree with was reducing the knockdown on the stealth opener, to prevent total stunlock.

Daiyukie · July 25, 2012

Here's some anecdotal evidence:

Here's me keeping up with my Sentinel guild leader in a roflstomp game

Here's me destroying people in a Huttball and having high objective score to boot (sorry for random highlighted player, didn't notice)

Here's me dominating a Voidstar

I still think the class feels subpar. Tonight I also hit an undergeared Sorc for 5538, which felt awesome, since that morning I got smacked with a Death Field that did 5792 damage and Railshots regularly hit me for a little less than that. But I have to hit some guy with 12k HP in PvE gear to get a number like that. Despite doing well in random matches sometimes, if the other team is actually doing something to prevent my damage, it's non-existant. If they're not, I can probably get a WH-geared opponent to about 40% with my opener.

After that point, it's pretty much Vanish out if they target me or try to keep the pressure on if they're simply ignoring me, with a decent amount of dying in between, but it HAS gotten better as I close in on perfect gear, for sure.

Edited July 25, 2012 by Daiyukie

MobiusZero · July 25, 2012

Not really ... Control is the most important thing for objective control. Operatives have this in bags.

If this is true, then why not play a healer? Healers get all the control that Concealment does.

In fact, if control is the most important thing, then why not have most of the team play as healers?

Oh wait, so you do need good DPS to win! I was starting to think that sleep dart and a 7 second mez on a 1 minute cd, were somehow the ultimate WZ winning abilities!

We also have stealth which you keep saying is a crutch, but I really find it hard to believe that you actually think that.

Stealth, for Concealment, is a crutch compared to every other spec that can stealth, in the game. Assassins, Lethality, Medicine.....they all have no reliance on stealth, but can choose to use it as a useful tool.

A player adept at using stealth well can single-handedly turn a match. If you believe otherwise you haven't played as many games as you claim to have played.

Against a skilled team, stealth caps just aren't very effective. Also, when playing on unskilled teams, stealth caps can result in negative outcomes. For example. if your team is weak enough that they can't hold off the enemy without you, and you are off somewhere else trying to solo or duo a node, then your team can suffer from losing the main contested node.

In Alderaan and Novare Coast, a stealth cap may come at a clutch moment, but on the other hand, it may result in losing a different node, and then the enemy team attacking the one you just capped and retaking it. It's a high risk high reward tactic. Typically, it's just not worth the risk - If you are a skilled player, you should be better off putting those skills to use, fighting the enemy team and capping the contested node (Assuming you aren't delegated to being a defender.).

In Voidstar, I would much prefer an operative to be with the main team, to throw down a flash bang when the enemy respawn wave comes, buying time to cap the door. Sure, if there is a stalemate, a stealth cap can turn the tide, but in generall I find that stealth is not even needed, especially with the new changes to the map. Any player can run to the opposite side at the opportune moment, and cap. I'd also like to point out than an Assassin can sprint to the door, and thus more effectively cap it than an Operative.

In Huttball, well....there's not really anything a Concealment Operative can do to be equal in value to any other class/spec in the game. Concealment is the worst spec there is, for huttball.

Here's some more anecdotal evidence for you from my 6 PuG matches today (3 Voidstar, 3 Civil War - I was partied with a Tankassin friend). Using stealth, against better teams in all but the last game, between the 2 of us we managed:

4 door caps in Civil War (would have been 5, but some Jugg started capping one with me so I switched to stopping respawns from interrupting)
2 Bridge caps (both with Tankassin sprint, me slowing/distracting)
1 dismantle
6 turret caps (4x grass, 2x mid)
All 6 games won, 2 pretty close but the rest comfortable.
The last Civil War was the only one where we didn't lose a turret at any point, in all the other matches we were out-damaged and out-healed by the 'pub team (they were semi-premade with probably the best Sentinel and his PT friend boosting their stats). In all the matches the co-ordinated use of stealth won us the match - between the 2 of us, we capped every single objective over 6 games (excluding snow).

No, they weren't all solo/duo caps against noob defenders either; 2 doors (and the dismantle) and 1 turret were sneak caps on a heavily contested objective. On all matches except the 2nd Voidstar I had one of the lowest damage figures, but one of the highest objective scores. In the 2nd Voidstar match I had a respectable ~270k damage and 43 kills to 6 deaths because after capping the first door and bridge we were dominated at the 2nd door and I switched into damage-mode. I spent most of the defending phase in stealth, only popping out when there was no-one else around to interrupt.

Don't you think you could obtain the same results with any 2 skilled players working together in a PuG game? It's certainly not premade status, but it definitely is an advantage.

The tweaking is predominantly needed in PVE, not PVP - and I think should come in the form a minor sustained damage boost (maybe increase DoT or RS damage by ~100dps).

Well, sustained damage is another one of the issues Operatives have, even in PvP. A change to that facet alone, could prove to be all that is needed.

In PVP you just need to find a role you feel comfortable with. I've italicised that bit because I think you have rightly pointed out that for many players, that has resulted in a switch to med spec. I'm not going to comment on whether that is a good thing or not since I believe that if they had chosen to stay in DPS spec they would eventually have figured out how to be effective - but not everyone in MMO's has that kind of patience these days (I blame WoW). I know that you have already done this, I have watched your video (looking forward to more), and can see how you end with the kinds of damage numbers that turn heads.

So, just as the previous poster in this thread, you are pointing out that it requires a higher than average amount of skill, in order to succeed as a Concealment Operative (And Lethality, for that matter.). This is a problem, and basically proves that there is imbalance. As I have said many times on these forums - The numbers speak for themselves. The fact that Concealment Operatives are so rare, is a clear indicater that they are sub-par.

I have never claimed that the class is perfect, but I honestly think that most of the complaints and suggestions that people make on these forums are based off a fundamental misunderstanding of the class. Heck, I also thought that we were a "bursty-stabby-stealthy" class at the start, but I have adapted my play to use more of our available tools as I've learned how to use them effectively. Why should BW pander to people crying for their "IWIN" button back? Or people who dismiss our many tools without even learning to use them effectively?

The problem is that other DPS classes get just as many, or more, tools, yet have less issues with DPS, survivability, etc..

Edited July 25, 2012 by MobiusZero

TheOpf · July 25, 2012

I have to agree with Mobius. This is one of the reasons you will see many people leave at least initially for GW2. This game has oddities that don't make any sense. The class that relies the most on stealth has the worst workable stealth in the game. The tree that relies the most on energy has the worst energy return talents.

Concealment/Scrappers are fun to play, but in a structured environment with Mara's who have close to 20k health they do relatively nothing. I can out damage 80 percent of the people in any pug any day. I provide zero utility compared to other classes. I play a DF scoundrel, and while I enjoy the class, my guild would prefer me play my guardian. Why? Because 8k force sweeps, multiple leaps, guard, taunt, aoe slow, aoe stun, force choke, force exhaustion (if focus). Are siginificantly better than flashbang, aoe dots, and dirty kick.

The sniper brings everything to the table a scoundrel does but with a higher burst and the ability to do all their damage at range.

I love my scoundrel, but the better geared my team gets the more we realize how weak the class is. My burst is not on demand. My ability to control a node is well below that of a guardian or a smart assassin. If you think a Madness assassin isn't a better dps class than you haven't faced one. I watched a very good madness assassin torch our guild Vanguard.

Ryemfoh · July 25, 2012

If this is true, then why not play a healer? Healers get all the control that Concealment does.

Healers (unless Hybrid) don't get improved stealth or pin down. I do go healer (and sometimes Hybrid) when our regular healers are away though - it's also fun, but I don't feel that I get to use our many control abilities as effectively as I do in Concealment spec since they are pretty-much reserved for self-preservation rather than group utility.

In fact, if control is the most important thing, then why not have most of the team play as healers?

Oh wait, so you do need good DPS to win! I was starting to think that sleep dart and a 7 second mez on a 1 minute cd, were somehow the ultimate WZ winning abilities!

Now you're just being obtuse. I've never claimed that DPS isn't important in a team either, only that it is not the only valid role of a player in a DPS spec. Go back 4+ months and find your* very first "Wow - Lethality spec is awesome just look at my huge Voidstar numbers" post and you will see my reply that DPS is almost always important for a team, but that you should expect a bunch of "Noob you're just padding the damage meters by multi-dotting" replies (which is exactly what happened )

* Pretty sure it was your post ..

Stealth, for Concealment, is a crutch compared to every other spec that can stealth, in the game. Assassins, Lethality, Medicine.....they all have no reliance on stealth, but can choose to use it as a useful tool.

I don't rely on stealth either, but it makes me far more effective at doing my job. Out of stealth my backstab hits as hard as Hidden Strike and also applies Acid Blade - the only thing I lose is the element of surprise and the 1-GCD knockdown...

Against a skilled team, stealth caps just aren't very effective.

I suspect you just haven't seen them employed effectively. Every cap on the first Voidstar door in every Voidstar I've played in the past 2 days has been from stealth. Either on the contested node or the off-node.

Also, when playing on unskilled teams, stealth caps can result in negative outcomes. For example. if your team is weak enough that they can't hold off the enemy without you, and you are off somewhere else trying to solo or duo a node, then your team can suffer from losing the main contested node.

And yet defending from stealth and/or stealth capping allowed us to win with an" unskilled" team (more under-geared than unskilled really) against vastly better opponents in 4 out of 6 matches. We were brute-forced off 2 turrets in a single match alone. Saying that stealth is a crutch for Concealment is like saying that self-healing is a crutch for Lethality rather than a useful and indeed powerful tool.

In Huttball, well....there's not really anything a Concealment Operative can do to be equal in value to any other class/spec in the game. Concealment is the worst spec there is, for huttball.

I kinda agree with you on this one, although defensively we still have knockdowns, stuns and roots in the fire traps - and don't forget stealth-intercepts. I tend to be employed offensively though and spend the majority of the match stealthing around near the goal line and waiting for a pass. Any stealth spec is great for this - particularly assassins with sprint, but we employ ours in mid to pick up the ball at the start where they are vastly more powerful than Operatives

Don't you think you could obtain the same results with any 2 skilled players working together in a PuG game? It's certainly not premade status, but it definitely is an advantage.

I'd like to see 2 PT's slow-jogging over to a node and have them arrive there without at least 4 defenders hot on their heels ... Certainly wouldn't happen in any rated or even PuG matches that I've played in recently.

So, just as the previous poster in this thread, you are pointing out that it requires a higher than average amount of skill, in order to succeed as a Concealment Operative (And Lethality, for that matter.). This is a problem, and basically proves that there is imbalance. As I have said many times on these forums - The numbers speak for themselves. The fact that Concealment Operatives are so rare, is a clear indicater that they are sub-par.

Not really - I'm pointing out that the majority of players in MMO's these days seem to be FOTM re-rollers with ADHD. Also, did you watch that video I linked? You should ... it has a great description of what should ideally happen to FOTM classes - I hope that BW manages to pull off that kind of balanced-imbalance as the game matures.

MobiusZero · July 25, 2012

Healers (unless Hybrid) don't get improved stealth or pin down. I do go healer (and sometimes Hybrid) when our regular healers are away though - it's also fun, but I don't feel that I get to use our many control abilities as effectively as I do in Concealment spec since they are pretty-much reserved for self-preservation rather than group utility.

It's not difficult for a healer to spec Improved Stealth. Also, the slow effect of regular Sever Tendon is wonderful, and I find the 2s snare to be of marginal use. The ability to have much greater surviveability and the ability to spec Sedatives, makes them much better at control than a Concealment Op (Control through DPS aside.).

Now you're just being obtuse. I've never claimed that DPS isn't important in a team either, only that it is not the only valid role of a player in a DPS spec.

And as I've always pointed out, no other role is as valuable as the ability to DPS. Control is important, but due to cooldowns, stun breaks, etc., it's secondary to the importance of good DPS. In fact, DPS is typically the greatest form of control in a WZ.

I don't rely on stealth either, but it makes me far more effective at doing my job. Out of stealth my backstab hits as hard as Hidden Strike and also applies Acid Blade - the only thing I lose is the element of surprise and the 1-GCD knockdown...

I think part of my issue here, is wasting my time arguing about the value of stealth, and stealth capping. I think I'm instead just going to focus on the main issue - That stealth alone does not make our class balanced. I could literraly be the most gimped, underpowered spec of all time, yet still exert control in a WZ by utilizing stealth. But that doesn't change the fact that something needs to be done to improve my spec! Why? Because there are other classes/specs that have stealth in this game, who do not suffer from such problems!

Just because stealth itself may be useful in a WZ, is meaningless. The fact is, that Concealment is sub-par compared to any other spec in the game that is able to stealth. They have less damage, less utility, less survivability, or some/all of the above.

I'm done arguing with people who want to waste their time stealth capping and thinking they are balanced because of it. At the very least, if I had to have a moron on my team who insists on leaving the team to go solo cap, I'd want an assassin, not a gimped Concealment Op. That there is the main crux of the problem.

Saying that stealth is a crutch for Concealment is like saying that self-healing is a crutch for Lethality rather than a useful and indeed powerful tool.

I assume you are referring to the use of heals to generate TA. The fact is, you can easily generate enough TA's without it. It's not even close to being comparable to the loss of HS + AB + KD as a Concealment Op. In fact, some Lethality Ops don't even spec Incisive Action.

I kinda agree with you on this one, although defensively we still have knockdowns, stuns and roots in the fire traps - and don't forget stealth-intercepts. I tend to be employed offensively though and spend the majority of the match stealthing around near the goal line and waiting for a pass. Any stealth spec is great for this - particularly assassins with sprint, but we employ ours in mid to pick up the ball at the start where they are vastly more powerful than Operatives

Sure, I know you can find things to do in huttball to not be completely useless. That doesn't change the fact that you are the least useful class there is in that WZ, by a large margin, excepting perhaps Mercenaries (who are also underpowered.).

I'd like to see 2 PT's slow-jogging over to a node and have them arrive there without at least 4 defenders hot on their heels ... Certainly wouldn't happen in any rated or even PuG matches that I've played in recently.

Sure, they'd probably be busy winning battles, with their insane DPS. 2 PTs working together is a force to be feared in a PuG. I'd fear it 2x as much as an Op/Assassin combo.

Not really - I'm pointing out that the majority of players in MMO's these days seem to be FOTM re-rollers with ADHD.

You know as well as I do, that this is a load of crap. But regardless, FoTM rerollers are typically a good indicator of what classes are UP and OP, since they're obviously going to change classes if their's is underpowered.

But honestly now, the decline in Concealment Op numbers is far far far far too great to be chalked up to "FOTM re-rollers with ADHD." You know this full well, so I don't know why you even bother posting this lame statement.

Edited July 25, 2012 by MobiusZero

bobmcbo · July 25, 2012

operatives have always been flimsy one way or another. Mine (also my first character) started as concealment- but with the nerf, combined with the fact that I was getting steamrolled by anyone that saw me in pvp (aside from the really weak ones)

I switched to lethality. Now my survivability is better, I can actually contribute well to warzones. However, in pve, lethality is FAR too lacking in damage, and the survivability doesn't make up for it enough.

Ryemfoh · July 26, 2012

It's not difficult for a healer to spec Improved Stealth. Also, the slow effect of regular Sever Tendon is wonderful, and I find the 2s snare to be of marginal use. The ability to have much greater surviveability and the ability to spec Sedatives, makes them much better at control than a Concealment Op (Control through DPS aside.).

A healer with Improved Stealth can't also have Slip Away. Pin Down completely ignores resolve, so is incredibly powerful when used correctly (not to mention the number of people who blow their stun break on it).

Med specs do have better survivability through SP spam, but if you have a healer with you (as you should in DPS spec) Concealment Ops get a 1 min reduction on vanish, and no healing received penalty after use. This ability to get into stealth more frequently means we can do all the other great things that stealth allows more reliably than either Med or Lethality spec (e.g. sleep targets, stealth cap, stealth defend, etc).

Sedatives is awesome - particularly when solo/duo capping or defending - but loses a fair bit unless coupled with Improved Stealth imo. I generally skip it in favour of Evasive Imperative when full heal spec, but always pick it up in Hybrid Conc spec.

And as I've always pointed out, no other role is as valuable as the ability to DPS. Control is important, but due to cooldowns, stun breaks, etc., it's secondary to the importance of good DPS. In fact, DPS is typically the greatest form of control in a WZ.

We will still have to agree to disagree on this. Teams need balance, and any class in any spec is only as good as the balance they bring to the team. In our team my role is as I've described many times, and I am almost never called on to just "nuke something as fast as possible".

I think part of my issue here, is wasting my time arguing about the value of stealth, and stealth capping. I think I'm instead just going to focus on the main issue - That stealth alone does not make our class balanced. I could literraly be the most gimped, underpowered spec of all time, yet still exert control in a WZ by utilizing stealth. But that doesn't change the fact that something needs to be done to improve my spec! Why? Because there are other classes/specs that have stealth in this game, who do not suffer from such problems!

An interesting angle on the old "Assassins can do the same only better" argument. But you're not really saying that, you're just saying the class is weak but still effective? So you also agree that it could use some tweaking but that it can be good in the right role (and the right hands)?

They have less damage, less utility, less survivability, or some/all of the above.

By less damage, do you mean equal or better single-target damage but less AoE damage? And by less utility do you mean better CC but no Knockback / pull / sprint? And by less survivability do you mean vs someone in Tank or Healing spec? Because otherwise I'm not sure you know the other stealth classes/specs all that well...

I assume you are referring to the use of heals to generate TA. The fact is, you can easily generate enough TA's without it. It's not even close to being comparable to the loss of HS + AB + KD as a Concealment Op. In fact, some Lethality Ops don't even spec Incisive Action.

No not just the TA, but also the heal - and I could have included Concealment Ops who choose to take the heal improvement talents over the damage talents in Lethality as well I suppose. By your logic that stealth is a "crutch", and that the other specs are able to perform their role effectively without it - DPS specs should be able to stand on their own on damage alone, and healing is just a crutch to support their lower damage and/or survivability. Clearly this is an absurd line of reasoning.

Sure, I know you can find things to do in huttball to not be completely useless.

This isn't something that I "found to do" .. this is a role that was given to me by our team leader. In PuG's I clear the catwalks and help control mid for the reset since that is something that many PuG players seem to neglect. Once you get used to positioning for knockbacks, Huttball really isn't as terrible for Operatives as some people make it out to be.

Sure, they'd probably be busy winning battles, with their insane DPS. 2 PTs working together is a force to be feared in a PuG. I'd fear it 2x as much as an Op/Assassin combo.

But again they would be relying on brute-force tactics (i.e. killing the other team as fast as possible to take advantage of the respawn timer) to win the match ... something that a single well-played stealth class can counter. See my previous comment on team balance.

Edited July 26, 2012 by Ryemfoh

NoTomorrow · July 26, 2012

So then it sounds to me like Concealment Operatives are not as much a counter to your class, as you were saying. Basically, from your statements, you are trying to argue that a Concealment Op must have a much higher amount of skill than average, in order to be a counter to snipers. In fact, you go so far as to even challenge me to a duel. If Operatives were such a huge counter to you, then why would you be so confident in dueling one?

I think that pretty much made my point. An average sniper should not be threatened by an average Concealment Operative. It's only the ones that are highly skilled that can beat you. Interestingly, this would be the case with any class, if played by a highly skilled player (Granted, said player would actually perform better with most other classes.).

I'd actually love to duel you, though it would prove nothing, especially since I am not even Concealment. If you play on Bastion, bring it on!

You understood it completely wrong. I challenge you to roll a sniper and duel me, a concealment operative and see how well you will do. Without much training I will win more more than 50% duels against you.

MobiusZero · July 26, 2012

A healer with Improved Stealth can't also have Slip Away. Pin Down completely ignores resolve, so is incredibly powerful when used correctly (not to mention the number of people who blow their stun break on it).

Med specs do have better survivability through SP spam, but if you have a healer with you (as you should in DPS spec) Concealment Ops get a 1 min reduction on vanish, and no healing received penalty after use. This ability to get into stealth more frequently means we can do all the other great things that stealth allows more reliably than either Med or Lethality spec (e.g. sleep targets, stealth cap, stealth defend, etc).

Sedatives is awesome - particularly when solo/duo capping or defending - but loses a fair bit unless coupled with Improved Stealth imo. I generally skip it in favour of Evasive Imperative when full heal spec, but always pick it up in Hybrid Conc spec.

I was thinking more along the lines of Concealment being able to do DPS!

A silly thing like pin down or slip away, is not enough to compare to the control of being able to keep yourself alive and interrupt caps for a longer period of time. Thankfully, control goes beyond a couple CC's and interrupting caps - Control requires the ability to kill opponents.

We will still have to agree to disagree on this. Teams need balance, and any class in any spec is only as good as the balance they bring to the team. In our team my role is as I've described many times, and I am almost never called on to just "nuke something as fast as possible".

You're never called on to kill someone? So what about once your CC has worn off? You're just going to sit there and let them cap? Or are you going to attack them? And then what about when Flash Bang is on CD? Or when you are stuck outside of stealth? Or what if you're attacking a node? Your CC antics alone aren't typically going to let you cap a node - you must kill the defenders!

You can't tell me that the occasional sleep dart and Flash Bang, are your main role in a WZ. If you can't put out enough DPS, you are worthless to your team as a DPS operative.

An interesting angle on the old "Assassins can do the same only better" argument. But you're not really saying that, you're just saying the class is weak but still effective? So you also agree that it could use some tweaking but that it can be good in the right role (and the right hands)?

Still effective at tossing out a couple CC's, yes. But as I always try to point out, a couple control abilities are not enough to make up for the deficiencies of the class. DPS is more important than control, because DPS is control.

If we were like healers or tanks, who can utilize their support abilities frequently, then certainly, our ability to control would be our main role. In fact, this is quite common in games, where there is a class whose main role is to CC. The problem, is that Concealment Ops are not able to use their CC abilities frequently, due to cooldowns and stealth requirements.

Our main role is doing damage, period. Damage applied smartly and in the right places, of course, but damage none-the-less.

By less damage, do you mean equal or better single-target damage but less AoE damage? And by less utility do you mean better CC but no Knockback / pull / sprint? And by less survivability do you mean vs someone in Tank or Healing spec? Because otherwise I'm not sure you know the other stealth classes/specs all that well...

Less damage, as in, look at the WZ scoreboard. And less survivability, by comparing defensive cooldowns, or gap closers, or armor, or self heals, etc.. A marauder, for example, does much more DPS, has gap closers, has stealth, more ability to CC (spammable roots), amazing defensive cooldowns, and the self heals from DoT spec (Which even out heal me!).

Darkness Assassins get better defensive cooldowns and armor than Concealment, better CC (Their own version of sleep dart, 30m stun, Low Blow, Whirlwind, Wither, Creeping Terror, Force Slow, Force Lightning, and Spike.), 2 gap closers (force pull and force speed.), and Guard, and don't require stealth for their DPS.

That's utility a Concealment Op couldn't even dream of having!!

No not just the TA, but also the heal - and I could have included Concealment Ops who choose to take the heal improvement talents over the damage talents in Lethality as well I suppose. By your logic that stealth is a "crutch", and that the other specs are able to perform their role effectively without it - DPS specs should be able to stand on their own on damage alone, and healing is just a crutch to support their lower damage and/or survivability. Clearly this is an absurd line of reasoning.

Except most people with DPS specs don't spec for heals. Personally, as Lethality, I only have Incisive Action, which if spent elsewhere, would maybe increase my damage by 1% overall.

But hey, sadly, you might actually be able to argue that healing is a crutch. We shouldn't have to rely on our sub-par heals, but we often do.

This isn't something that I "found to do" .. this is a role that was given to me by our team leader. In PuG's I clear the catwalks and help control mid for the reset since that is something that many PuG players seem to neglect. Once you get used to positioning for knockbacks, Huttball really isn't as terrible for Operatives as some people make it out to be.

Wait....you clear catwalks by what? Ohhhhhhhhh! By dealing damage!

But again they would be relying on brute-force tactics (i.e. killing the other team as fast as possible to take advantage of the respawn timer) to win the match ... something that a single well-played stealth class can counter. See my previous comment on team balance.

I'm not going to argue with you about this anymore. I disagree about the value of stealth capping, but as I pointed out, it's really moot. Even for stealth capping, I'd want you off my team in favor of an Assassin or Med spec Op. A well played Concealment Op, is gimping my team compared to a well played Darkness Assassin.

Edited July 26, 2012 by MobiusZero

TheOpf · July 26, 2012

operatives have always been flimsy one way or another. Mine (also my first character) started as concealment- but with the nerf, combined with the fact that I was getting steamrolled by anyone that saw me in pvp (aside from the really weak ones)

I switched to lethality. Now my survivability is better, I can actually contribute well to warzones. However, in pve, lethality is FAR too lacking in damage, and the survivability doesn't make up for it enough.

Scrapper/Concealment is extremely weak pre-WarHero Weapon levels. I am 4 piece War Hero, and when I play scrapper it's significantly better now than it was pre War Hero Gear. Lethality is really strong against teams with healers on it. Against non-healer teams it kind of duds out since your dots don't have time to take affect.

TheOpf · July 26, 2012

Lot of stuff complaining about operatives

Mobius mate, I agree with you to a point. However, Madness assassins are way better than darkness now. I rarely run into darkness assassins anymore. Madness provide self heals - strong damage, and the all the cooldowns outside of force pull. Team a madness assassin with a madness sorc, and there is hardly anyone who can withstand their output.

My problem as I stated before is that our role of Control is better handled by Assassins or Guardians who have better control and deal as much damage. Lethality can keep up with them, but really can only take the place of a Commando or Sniper. A scrapper isn't even effective until higher gear and power levels, and even then his burst is pretty weak compared to similar trees. Granted if I play correctly I can take anyone I want down, however it takes me less work to deal equal damage on a Trooper and have more control and do better burst on my Guardian.

Ryemfoh · July 26, 2012

[snip] a load of ridiculous arguments based around intentionally misinterpreted comments.[/snip]

I'm not going to bother replying to these kinds of comments anymore - DPS is not the most important role in a warzone, and I'm tired of trying to explain that to you rationally.

That this is true does not mean that every second I am out of stealth I am not either damaging or healing someone. Please stop this stupidity it is beneath you.

Less damage, as in, look at the WZ scoreboard. And less survivability, by comparing defensive cooldowns, or gap closers, or armor, or self heals, etc.. A marauder, for example, does much more DPS, has gap closers, has stealth, more ability to CC (spammable roots), amazing defensive cooldowns, and the self heals from DoT spec (Which even out heal me!).

Darkness Assassins get better defensive cooldowns and armor than Concealment, better CC (Their own version of sleep dart, 30m stun, Low Blow, Whirlwind, Wither, Creeping Terror, Force Slow, Force Lightning, and Spike.), 2 gap closers (force pull and force speed.), and Guard, and don't require stealth for their DPS.

Again we are comparing a single Operative to at least 2 other classes, one of which is invalid (Marauder "has stealth" ... yeah for 4 seconds which gives very little tactical advantage compared to a true stealth class).

When my role in the team is just to DPS I easily do better than our tank spec'd assassins - usually only slightly behind the marauders who in turn are slightly behind the PT's. But we rarely employ tactics that don't take advantage of my stealth - why would we when it's so much more powerful than simply contributing slightly sub-par DPS in the main melee?

Except most people with DPS specs don't spec for heals. Personally, as Lethality, I only have Incisive Action, which if spent elsewhere, would maybe increase my damage by 1% overall.

I'd have to try and find your spec, but as far as I can remember you've only posted it once and I can't be bothered to do that right now ... however, given you have mentioned that you spec into both Escape Plan and Counterstrike in Lethality, I find it hard to believe you're only giving up 1% damage in other talent options.

But hey, sadly, you might actually be able to argue that healing is a crutch. We shouldn't have to rely on our sub-par heals, but we often do.

Wow. Just wow. So based on you accepting my absurd logic, now shields, sprints, slows, roots and stuns are all "crutches" to all DPS classes. Heck - I could now argue that every DPS class should theoretically be able to kill instantly with the power of their minds, but because that would be overpowered BW have given us all these silly shooting/hitting abilities instead... Oh, but I suppose to be perfectly balanced, healers should be able to heal / res instantly as well, and tanks should be able to guard instantly .. so in your ideal game everyone just stands around staring at each-other?

Tools are not crutches - they are tools. We have them for a reason, and the reason for them gives us a hint as to the dev's class concept. Just because you can get higher damage numbers staying out of stealth and multi-dotting does not mean that stealth (or any of our other tools) aren't part of the core concept for the class and were simply added to prop up a broken design.

This kind of argument really makes me agitated - who are you to say that Concealment Operatives who have learned to use their tools effectively are just relying on a mechanic to cover for their class being broken? How do you know that they aren't in-fact playing the way the class was designed to be played? Finally, on what basis do you make these claims given the number of examples you have been given (not just from myself) where this play-style has been pivotal in a winning match strategy?

Even for stealth capping, I'd want you off my team in favor of an Assassin or Med spec Op. A well played Concealment Op, is gimping my team compared to a well played Darkness Assassin.

Using a Med spec Op to stealth cap is either taking a healer away from your core team, or taking an extra healer where a Hybrid or DPS spec would probably be better. Madness Assassins probably are stronger than Concealment Ops at solo capping at the moment, but in rated matches it is very rare to find a node solo-defended. In these matches sending an Assassin + Conc Op means you can nuke down both defenders before your opponents can respond, and survive long enough after the cap for the others to arrive.

It's a team game - I'm sorry that in your PuG groups those pesky Conc Ops keep running off and dying for no reason on the off-turret, but that is not the way all of us play.

Edited July 26, 2012 by Ryemfoh

MobiusZero · July 26, 2012

Mobius mate, I agree with you to a point. However, Madness assassins are way better than darkness now. I rarely run into darkness assassins anymore. Madness provide self heals - strong damage, and the all the cooldowns outside of force pull. Team a madness assassin with a madness sorc, and there is hardly anyone who can withstand their output.

Well, it doesn't really change my point much, since it's hard to argue that any assassin spec has less utility than Concealment.

And actually, I think I included creeping terror in my list, which is actually Madness. A much better control ability than Sever Tendon!

I'm not going to bother replying to these kinds of comments anymore - DPS is not the most important role in a warzone, and I'm tired of trying to explain that to you rationally.

Funny how I still completely disagree with you about this point, as much as I ever did.

I've played enough warzones to know that our sleep dart which requires stealth, and our CC that is on a 1 minute cooldown, is not the most important thing we bring to a WZ. Most of my time in a WZ is spent doing DPS, as I should be as a DPS class. You act as if Ops can conjure up CC at will, which simply isn't the case.

Let me put it to you this way:

If you can't do DPS well as an Operative, you are useless! So you delay the team for a few seconds every now and then, but if you can't fight, you are going to ultimately get owned. And no CC compares to the duration that someone has to spend getting back into the battle after they die. In certain cases your CC can definitely be used for a clutch capture, but it is not something you can ever rely on, because they break on damage and/or can be removed with CC breaks. DPS, on the other hand, can almost always be relied on. Not mindless DPS, of course, but objective based DPS.

You simply can't beat a skilled team without being able to kill them. If all you did was CC and run like a little girl, you would never win.

Our CC is a valuable tool, but it is not the bacbone of our class. If it were, we would not be known as a DPS class as we are, but would be known as a CC class, which we are not.

That this is true does not mean that every second I am out of stealth I am not either damaging or healing someone. Please stop this stupidity it is beneath you.

So, please tell me what you spend more time doing in a WZ? CCing the enemy, or damaging them?

I think I've explained it clearly in the past, that I'm sick of Concealment Ops like you, who try to justify their worthless damage score with the whole "control" argument. And I just won't buy it. I don't want their worthless contribution of this so called "control." I'd rather have them stop dicking around in stealth so much and actually helping the team.

Again we are comparing a single Operative to at least 2 other classes, one of which is invalid (Marauder "has stealth" ... yeah for 4 seconds which gives very little tactical advantage compared to a true stealth class).

Their stealth is on a short CD, and is stealth none-the-less. But if you want to disrergard them, then by all means, focus on assassins.

When my role in the team is just to DPS I easily do better than our tank spec'd assassins - usually only slightly behind the marauders who in turn are slightly behind the PT's.

If I saw this, I'd consider you a skilled Concealment Op, who is getting the most out of the class. I'd take this kind of Concealment Op any day, than one that gets a trashy damage score and thinks they're actually contributing to the team.

But we rarely employ tactics that don't take advantage of my stealth - why would we when it's so much more powerful than simply contributing slightly sub-par DPS in the main melee?

I don't care what tactics you employ. If you're getting a poor damage score, you are a detriment to your team. The only exception is if you were a defender that was not attacked much.

I'd have to try and find your spec, but as far as I can remember you've only posted it once and I can't be bothered to do that right now ... however, given you have mentioned that you spec into both Escape Plan and Counterstrike in Lethality, I find it hard to believe you're only giving up 1% damage in other talent options.

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#401hZhrbkrrGkMRZrc.2

The only +damage talent I forgo with my spec, is Devouring Microbes. By my calculations, it will increase your damage by about 1-3%, depending on your playstyle. With my playstyle, I'd say about 1%. Now, consider that I only spend 2 talent points on a healing talent, and Devouring Microbes cost 3, which means I probably would see a less than 1% increase.

I guess I could also spend it on Concealed Attacks, but considering the amount of total damage my backstab does (I'm not going to run a parse, so this is just an estimation), I'd say it's also around a 1-3% total damage increase.

Wow. Just wow. So based on you accepting my absurd logic, now shields, sprints, slows, roots and stuns are all "crutches" to all DPS classes.

No, this is not true at all. In order to heal, I must stop dealing DPS.

Tools are not crutches - they are tools. We have them for a reason, and the reason for them gives us a hint as to the dev's class concept. Just because you can get higher damage numbers staying out of stealth and multi-dotting does not mean that stealth (or any of our other tools) aren't part of the core concept for the class and were simply added to prop up a broken design.

A tool becomes a crutch, when you must rely on it. Operatives need their crutch in order to walk properly. An assassin can walk just fine without. Stealth to them, is more like therapeutic insoles - They don't need them, but it sure makes walking more comfortable!

How do you know that they aren't in-fact playing the way the class was designed to be played?

God I'm getting sick of this argument. Bioware's current operative design sucks! I'm sorry, but if my class was designed to be underpowered, it's simply not acceptable! If Jedi were designed to be overpowered, because Bioware felt that that is the way they should be, since it makes no sense for a non-force user to be on equal ground with them - Well, that would just be bad design, and would not be acceptable. Balance is absolutely necessary, regardless of what "design" that BW had in mind.

Finally, on what basis do you make these claims given the number of examples you have been given (not just from myself) where this play-style has been pivotal in a winning match strategy?

It wouldn't be so pivotal playing against my strategies, I'll tell you that much. I guess, luckily for you, most people suck at dealing with stealth gimmicks.

Using a Med spec Op to stealth cap is either taking a healer away from your core team, or taking an extra healer where a Hybrid or DPS spec would probably be better. Madness Assassins probably are stronger than Concealment Ops at solo capping at the moment, but in rated matches it is very rare to find a node solo-defended. In these matches sending an Assassin + Conc Op means you can nuke down both defenders before your opponents can respond, and survive long enough after the cap for the others to arrive.

I'd rather have an Assassin + Assassin, or Assassin + Med or Lethality Op, any day, if I was going to utilize stealth gimmicks. Unless we had a Concealment Op that was so skilled, that no one could replace him (Though, he'd be more helpful to the team as a different spec or class.).

It's a team game - I'm sorry that in your PuG groups those pesky Conc Ops keep running off and dying for no reason on the off-turret, but that is not the way all of us play.

Oh, if only most Concealment Ops did fight with the team. They're not the best choice in the world, but they could at least utilize their burst + stunlock to help take down snipers, healers, or focused enemies.

Ryemfoh · July 26, 2012

And actually, I think I included creeping terror in my list, which is actually Madness. A much better control ability than Sever Tendon!

Actually we were talking about Pin Down.

I've played enough warzones to know that our sleep dart which requires stealth, and our CC that is on a 1 minute cooldown, is not the most important thing we bring to a WZ. Most of my time in a WZ is spent doing DPS, as I should be as a DPS class. You act as if Ops can conjure up CC at will, which simply isn't the case.

My Debilitate is on a 30s CD .. so is yours. I'm surprised you don't know that.

So, please tell me what you spend more time doing in a WZ? CCing the enemy, or damaging them?

Why can't I do both? And heal too? And use stealth to gain a tactical advantage? I can still hit things while they are stunned, or heal myself/others while they are Mezz'd .. The CC + healing + damage + taunts is precisely why Conc (or Lethality) + Assassin make such a strong stealth team. 2 Assassins lack the healing, and an Assassin + Med Op lack the damage to ensure you are able to kill both defenders before backup arrives.

I think I've explained it clearly in the past, that I'm sick of Concealment Ops like you, who try to justify their worthless damage score with the whole "control" argument. And I just won't buy it. I don't want their worthless contribution of this so called "control." I'd rather have them stop dicking around in stealth so much and actually helping the team.

And I am sick of Operatives claiming that half of our tools are just "gimmicks" that are "useless" in competitive PVP. It was bad enough when it was just Concealment Ops crying that they couldn't kill tanks in 2 GCD's anymore without your claims that the only valid PVP tactic is to kill stuff as fast as possible.

Their stealth is on a short CD, and is stealth none-the-less.

Their stealth duration is too short to offer any tactical advantage outside of very poor defending.

If I saw this, I'd consider you a skilled Concealment Op, who is getting the most out of the class. I'd take this kind of Concealment Op any day, than one that gets a trashy damage score and thinks they're actually contributing to the team.

I don't see how you can consider the "trashy damage score" a sign of poor play if I've scored 4 goals in your Huttball match ... or capped 2 doors in Voidstar ... or the 2nd turret/bunker in Civil War/Novare Coast ... Seriously - what more would a stealth player (or pair of players) need to do in order to be useful on this hypothetical team of yours?

I don't care what tactics you employ. If you're getting a poor damage score, you are a detriment to your team. The only exception is if you were a defender that was not attacked much.

You're just sounding belligerent now. "I don't care that you won the game for the team - you didn't do enough damage!" ... please.

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#401hZhrbkrrGkMRZrc.2

The only +damage talent I forgo with my spec, is Devouring Microbes. By my calculations, it will increase your damage by about 1-3%, depending on your playstyle. With my playstyle, I'd say about 1%. Now, consider that I only spend 2 talent points on a healing talent, and Devouring Microbes cost 3, which means I probably would see a less than 1% increase.

Escape Plan + Counterstrike are not damage boosting abilities either - so I don't think the "2 pts vs 3 pts" argument is really valid here since we're talking about damage talents that you've given up in order to have other talents which don't boost damage (which you claim are crutches).

If I remember right, Dev Microbes also boosts Cull - so between your combined DoT's + Cull (iirc around 60% of your damage output) you're losing 15% damage for 30% of the fight. Napkin math puts that at around 3% damage. You're also giving up Surgical Strikes (4% increase to ~20% of your damage), and 16% increased crit on BS/HS. Given your play-style I suspect the Surgical Strikes + Concealed Attacks numbers are significantly reduced compared to dummy Lethality parses, however you are exceptionally good at multi-dotting so the value of Microbes goes up significantly... Certainly the net result is >1% damage.

A tool becomes a crutch, when you must rely on it. Operatives need their crutch in order to walk properly. An assassin can walk just fine without. Stealth to them, is more like therapeutic insoles - They don't need them, but it sure makes walking more comfortable!

This may be true for Tankassins, but the damage specs need stealth just as much as we do. Also, I don't rely on stealth - in-fact I spend relatively little time in stealth over the course of the match - but it is absolutely my most valuable tool when it comes to gaining an advantage for my team in the Warzone.

God I'm getting sick of this argument. Bioware's current operative design sucks! I'm sorry, but if my class was designed to be underpowered, it's simply not acceptable! If Jedi were designed to be overpowered, because Bioware felt that that is the way they should be, since it makes no sense for a non-force user to be on equal ground with them - Well, that would just be bad design, and would not be acceptable. Balance is absolutely necessary, regardless of what "design" that BW had in mind.

We are balanced (for the most part ... there is always room for improvement) - just not the way you perceive balance requirements. We make excellent counters to Sorcs / Snipers and can make a reasonable contribution to DPS even if the team isn't using stealth tactically (not the best, but available when/where needed and optionally with the element of surprise + some control). We have some of the best control abilities in the game on a single class, and on top of that, we are able to heal and stealth which open up a huge range of options tactically.

I don't even remember how this discussion started anymore - it seems like just the same old tired arguments over and over ... I'm not saying that the class is perfect, but this whining about Concealment spec being "broken" or "crippled" or "relying on gimmicks" while at the same time disregarding all of the strengths they do bring to a team is just wrong.

MobiusZero · July 27, 2012

My Debilitate is on a 30s CD .. so is yours. I'm surprised you don't know that.

So you are standing around doing nothing for those 30 seconds, and just using debilitate when it comes off CD? Oh, and your other CC abilities when they come off CD too, of course. Forget about doing damage...it's all about controooooollllllllll!!

Why can't I do both? And heal too? And use stealth to gain a tactical advantage? I can still hit things while they are stunned, or heal myself/others while they are Mezz'd ..

You absolutely can do both. In fact, you are going to be doing damage more than anything. I'm not saying our control abilities are useless. I'm just pointing out how our damage is the most important thing we do, since it's mostly what we do when in combat.

2 Assassins lack the healing, and an Assassin + Med Op lack the damage to ensure you are able to kill both defenders before backup arrives.

Every class gets an out of combat heal. If you are stopping to heal in the middle of the fight for a stealth cap, then you are not a good combo, and would have been better off being replaced by an assassin.

And I am sick of Operatives claiming that half of our tools are just "gimmicks" that are "useless" in competitive PVP. It was bad enough when it was just Concealment Ops crying that they couldn't kill tanks in 2 GCD's anymore without your claims that the only valid PVP tactic is to kill stuff as fast as possible.

Those tools are overrated by people like you, who are exactly the people that keep the class from being balanced. You think you're doing such a good job for your team, but the fact is, they'd be better off with you as a different class.

I don't see how you can consider the "trashy damage score" a sign of poor play if I've scored 4 goals in your Huttball match ... or capped 2 doors in Voidstar ... or the 2nd turret/bunker in Civil War/Novare Coast ... Seriously - what more would a stealth player (or pair of players) need to do in order to be useful on this hypothetical team of yours?

As a DPS class, yes I very much feel that is poor play. Just because you managed to cap those objectives, does not mean you were helping your team as much as you could have been.

For example, I could join a WZ and do absolutely nothing but constantly click on a node to cap it, doing no damage, no CC, and zerg rushing back every time I die. If I capped nodes, does that mean I helped my team? No, it just means my team made it possible for me to cap those nodes, while I stood there and gimped them the whole time.

You're just sounding belligerent now. "I don't care that you won the game for the team - you didn't do enough damage!" ... please.

I don't want people trying to play solo hero on my team. They do more to hurt the team than help it, and actually think they are helping us win. Just like the hypothetical player who did absolutely nothing but spam clicking nodes.

Escape Plan + Counterstrike are not damage boosting abilities either - so I don't think the "2 pts vs 3 pts" argument is really valid here since we're talking about damage talents that you've given up in order to have other talents which don't boost damage (which you claim are crutches).

Those are all abilities that help me deal more damage. If it gets to a point where my abilities are actually hurting my damage, then yes, they become a crutch. For example, if I was healing in combat and thus dealing less DPS.

On the other hand, if I use counterstrike and survive because of it, then I can more quickly return to battle and thus deal more damage than I would have. The same can be said of healing, if used properly. But if your healing is hindering your ability to deal damage, then yes, it can perhaps be considered a crutch. But frankly your taking my statement and blowing it way out of proportion, since the only thing I said actually for sure is a crutch, is stealth.

The argument is that stealth is a crutch for a Concealment Op, and it is, with the current stealth mechanics. It hinders them from doing high enough damage, because they can't get back into it easily enough. It's just way too quirky how it works now.

If I remember right, Dev Microbes also boosts Cull - so between your combined DoT's + Cull (iirc around 60% of your damage output) you're losing 15% damage for 30% of the fight. Napkin math puts that at around 3% damage.

Like I said 1-3%. The 1% being for people like me, who spread DoTs around for the energy gain, and thus have most of their DoT damage dealt to players at above 30% health. Also, I don't Cull as often as many do, and don't forget that only the yellow damage of Cull is affected by it. It's really a worthless talent, and I advise most Lethality Ops to not spec it.

You're also giving up Surgical Strikes (4% increase to ~20% of your damage), and 16% increased crit on BS/HS. Given your play-style I suspect the Surgical Strikes + Concealed Attacks numbers are significantly reduced compared to dummy Lethality parses, however you are exceptionally good at multi-dotting so the value of Microbes goes up significantly... Certainly the net result is >1% damage.

+16% of your backstabs will deal +75% damage (assuming you are soft capped on surge.). Depending on how often you use backstab (certainly much less than 20% of my damage is from it), I'd say it ranks at about....worthless.

This may be true for Tankassins, but the damage specs need stealth just as much as we do. Also, I don't rely on stealth - in-fact I spend relatively little time in stealth over the course of the match - but it is absolutely my most valuable tool when it comes to gaining an advantage for my team in the Warzone.

Ok, so if you are spending little time in stealth, then what are you doing? Damage perhaps? I thought so.

We are balanced (for the most part ... there is always room for improvement) - just not the way you perceive balance requirements.

If by balanced, you mean being tied with Mercenaries at being the most underpowered class in the game. Sorcs are a close 3rd.

We make excellent counters to Sorcs

So does every other class in the game. Most better, in fact.

/ Snipers

Again, so does almost every other class, that takes the time to actually kill them. Operatives (and assassins) just tend to hang back longer and notice them rear their ugly heads, before they already jumped into combat.

We have some of the best control abilities in the game on a single class

Depends on what you mean by "some of the best." We certainly don't get the kind of control abilities many other classes do. Sure, we are better than some, but it's not enough to make it a unique strength of ours.

I don't even remember how this discussion started anymore - it seems like just the same old tired arguments over and over ... I'm not saying that the class is perfect, but this whining about Concealment spec being "broken" or "crippled" or "relying on gimmicks" while at the same time disregarding all of the strengths they do bring to a team is just wrong.

That's because most of us can see that our strengths do not outweigh our weaknesses. I don't deny that we have strengths - I just deny that they are as good as you make them out to be.

Edited July 27, 2012 by MobiusZero

TheOpf · July 27, 2012

Whoa, whoa, Mobius! Now you are going a little crazy with your math. If you are spreading dots all over the place. Devouring Microbes becomes a significantly bigger portion of your total damage. Simply because more dots on more people who have the potential to be under 30 percent health. I have personally watched my dots alone kill off multiple targets. You cannot say Countermeasures is worth anything at all and then say Devouring Microbes is worthless. That's ridiculously shortsighted and very rigid. That's like me saying you don't use Back Blast on cooldown so that means you aren't using your class to it's full advantage (which you aren't). Telling people not to spec into damage boosting abilities while telling them damage is their main purpose seems a bit odd.

Look, You can choose not to spec into it all you want, but it has it's value for those of us who play a strafing style and dive bombing style. I use Back Blast on CD, I use Blaster Whip regularly, and I use my dot's in a spread the love style until I need to focus fire. The fact that you don't use Back Blast on CD considering how powerful it is at higher levels baffles me. i have watched your videos, and your playstyle works for you. However, you are rarely focused. I am repeatedly focused and have to kill someone quickly. Devouring microbes is amazing when the class drops below 30 percent. It allows me to get a kill 2-4 seconds faster than it otherwise would have.

I believe we went over this before. Your playstyle is better suited for the dirty fighting/lethality sniper and not the operative. On that note, I whole heartedly agree that the Operative/Scoundrel is at a severe disadvantage in terms of control and burst. We play a support role with crap support abilities. Other classes provide healing debuffs aoe damage reduction, armor pennetration, Knockbacks (much more useful than stuns), Pulls, leaps, Pushes, force chokes, or bursts greater than 3.4-4k damage.

We provide either sub-standard burst mixed around single target damage or aoe dot's with backloaded sub-standard burst. Granted I can roll through just about any ranged class, and our dots when spread around can be ridiculously annoying for healers. However, you have to admit Sniper do Lethality for more burst than we do especially if they spec Lethal/Engineering.

MobiusZero · July 27, 2012

Whoa, whoa, Mobius! Now you are going a little crazy with your math. If you are spreading dots all over the place. Devouring Microbes becomes a significantly bigger portion of your total damage. Simply because more dots on more people who have the potential to be under 30 percent health. I have personally watched my dots alone kill off multiple targets. You cannot say Countermeasures is worth anything at all and then say Devouring Microbes is worthless. That's ridiculously shortsighted and very rigid. That's like me saying you don't use Back Blast on cooldown so that means you aren't using your class to it's full advantage (which you aren't). Telling people not to spec into damage boosting abilities while telling them damage is their main purpose seems a bit odd.

My math is completely solid. A theoretical 5% boost to DoT damage (30% of 15%.), is miniscule, considering it comes at the cost of three points! If it was +30%, I'd absolutely agree it was worth it, but 15% is far too low to be worth it. Sure, skills like Cut Down are also miniscule, but at least in that case, there's not much else to choose from at those tiers.

And don't misunderstand me. I'm not dense enough to not understand the importance of control. If that were the case, I wouldn't spec countermeasures, Adhesive Corrosives, etc.. Just because damage is our most important role, certainly doesn't mean that other factors are not important. For example, having countermeasures allows me to more easily escape marauders, sorcerors, assassins, and juggernauts, which thus allows me to return to the fight more quickly and deal more damage.

Look, You can choose not to spec into it all you want, but it has it's value for those of us who play a strafing style and dive bombing style. I use Back Blast on CD, I use Blaster Whip regularly, and I use my dot's in a spread the love style until I need to focus fire. The fact that you don't use Back Blast on CD considering how powerful it is at higher levels baffles me. i have watched your videos, and your playstyle works for you. However, you are rarely focused. I am repeatedly focused and have to kill someone quickly. Devouring microbes is amazing when the class drops below 30 percent. It allows me to get a kill 2-4 seconds faster than it otherwise would have.

My first thought, is that you are focused, because you are focusing too much on using back blast, etc., thus gaining too much of the enemy's attention. I certainly backstab every time I get in melee range of someone, and feel it's a very important skill, but it's not something you want to use when it puts you at greater risk of being targeted.

And I think you are over-estimating the value of a +15% damage bonus to DoTs.

I believe we went over this before. Your playstyle is better suited for the dirty fighting/lethality sniper and not the operative.

Snipers can't heal, can't Cloaking Screen, can't Toxic Scan, and worst of all, can't spec Imperial Brew. Lethality Snipers are more about burst damage. And actually, if I played sniper, I'd go Engineering for sure.

Also, don't think I play Lethality Operative because I find it to be my preferred play-style. I just decided a long time ago that I didn't like Concealment, which was my originally intended spec, and decided I wanted to try and take Lethality to the highest level possible.

We provide either sub-standard burst mixed around single target damage or aoe dot's with backloaded sub-standard burst. Granted I can roll through just about any ranged class, and our dots when spread around can be ridiculously annoying for healers. However, you have to admit Sniper do Lethality for more burst than we do especially if they spec Lethal/Engineering.

I agree, for the most part. But I don't focus on burst damage as a Lethality Operative. I tend to focus more on AoE and putting a hurt on the entire enemy team. Granted, our Cull does a lot more damage than snipers, and has no CD, so our burst is not to be underestimated, as you well know.

Edited July 27, 2012 by MobiusZero

TheOpf · July 27, 2012

My math is completely solid. A theoretical 5% boost to DoT damage (30% of 15%.), is miniscule, considering it comes at the cost of three points! If it was +30%, I'd absolutely agree it was worth it, but 15% is far too low to be worth it. Sure, skills like Cut Down are also miniscule, but at least in that case, there's not much else to choose from at those tiers.

And don't misunderstand me. I'm not dense enough to not understand the importance of control. If that were the case, I wouldn't spec countermeasures, Adhesive Corrosives, etc.. Just because damage is our most important role, certainly doesn't mean that other factors are not important. For example, having countermeasures allows me to more easily escape marauders, sorcerors, assassins, and juggernauts, which thus allows me to return to the fight more quickly and deal more damage.

Except just about everyone one of those has a spammable or multiple slows which defeats the purpose. However, we have been through this discussion before, and we will agree to disagree.

My first thought, is that you are focused, because you are focusing too much on using back blast, etc., thus gaining too much of the enemy's attention. I certainly backstab every time I get in melee range of someone, and feel it's a very important skill, but it's not something you want to use when it puts you at greater risk of being targeted.

And I think you are over-estimating the value of a +15% damage bonus to DoTs.

We must agree to disagree. Anytime you are on a healer , you will be targeted. I think you are avoiding melee too much to simply avoid the risk of getting targeted. To me that's a horrible playstyle. You do moderate damage and then wait until someone is really weak and jump in for the kill. Players like that are largely ignored because they provide what many see as fluff damage. Against Pugs, your play style works, and yes you will live longer than me. But I will take the productive kills and burning down the targets.

Snipers can't heal, can't Cloaking Screen, can't Toxic Scan, and worst of all, can't spec Imperial Brew. Lethality Snipers are more about burst damage. And actually, if I played sniper, I'd go Engineering for sure.

Also, don't think I play Lethality Operative because I find it to be my preferred play-style. I just decided a long time ago that I didn't like Concealment, which was my originally intended spec, and decided I wanted to try and take Lethality to the highest level possible.

You play Lethality for the same reason I play Dirty Fighting. Scrapper was horrible (a burst spec tied to stealth that they can't reenter and has the weakest burst in the game).

Your reasoning is invalid. Cloaking Screen provides almost zero group benefit, Toxic scan is 90 percent of the time used on yourself, and if your heals are beneficial at all than your healers are seriously under-performing.

I agree, for the most part. But I don't focus on burst damage as a Lethality Operative. I tend to focus more on AoE and putting a hurt on the entire enemy team. Granted, our Cull does a lot more damage than snipers, and has no CD, so our burst is not to be underestimated, as you well know.

It also costs a bucket load of energy and sucks our Upper hand which is worse than having no CD. Do you know how much damage a Double cull does? 8-10k damage at best. That's with full dots and Hemo and the Devouring Microbes, That's the same damage over a longer period of time than Pyro TD/RS - Snipers big shots, and as much damage as a single slam. Except unlike the other burst damage it's mitigated, by defense, armor, and able to miss. I don't underestimate it's potential at all. I completely realize that while it can be powerful it's nowhere close to as feared as it should be.

On a final note, we are a dps class that means are job is to kill other targets. If you don't at least focus somewhat on our burst than what good is the class. Did you know our dots hit for less than Pyro's Cell dot? That madness sorcs and assassins dots hit for the same amount of damage but provide better benefits? That Mara's bleeds while slightly worse than ours either have a slow attached to them or heal the target? That a juggernaughts dot damage might be slightly worse than ours but are attached to a superior mechanic? That even the crap AP dot provides a crit for one of their hardest hitting attacks. It also costs less than our dots.

Essentially we agree, but if you just want to be a dot spammer there are a lot better classes to choose from.

Edited July 27, 2012 by TheOpf

MobiusZero · July 27, 2012

Except just about everyone one of those has a spammable or multiple slows which defeats the purpose. However, we have been through this discussion before, and we will agree to disagree.

As I told you in a previous thread - You use it in tandem with Debilitate or Flash Bang. In fact, I got in this same discussion with a marauder once, who made the same claim - "I can spam my slow, so it doesn't matter." Said marauder was unable to spam it on me, because I'd just stun him (As I proved to him when he was on the enemy team in a WZ.)..

We must agree to disagree. Anytime you are on a healer , you will be targeted. I think you are avoiding melee too much to simply avoid the risk of getting targeted. To me that's a horrible playstyle. You do moderate damage and then wait until someone is really weak and jump in for the kill. Players like that are largely ignored because they provide what many see as fluff damage. Against Pugs, your play style works, and yes you will live longer than me. But I will take the productive kills and burning down the targets.

That's exactly the mentality I want people to have. My "fluff" damage, vastly outscores most players. I also rarely die in a WZ, frequently going Unbeatable and sometimes even Invincible (In fact I am the only player I have ever seen go invincible since it was changed to require 14 medals.).

My so called "moderate" damage, is much better than doing more burst damage yet dying. A huge reason I get such high damage scores, is because I'm in fights more, and spend less time having to respawn.

In fact, it was kind of funny, the other day when I was in a random premade, and they said in vent, "Switch to left door after you get killed.". "Ummm, I don't plan on getting killed."

In the end, I emphasize the importance of dealing damage, but ultimately, what I mean by it is this: As a DPS class, the best way to judge your performance is by your damage score. Typically, if you have a high damage score, you are also going to get a high objective score, which means you are doing the best job helpng your team.

Conversely, someone who is a DPS class, and gets a poor damage score, and tries to claim that it was because they were playing just to win objectives, is actually a detriment to their team, and are misguided in their beliefs. It's, as I pointed out earlier, akin to someone spam clicking nodes and thinking they are helping win. The reality, is that playing the objectives, should result in a good damage score, if you are contributing to your team's victory. Just like a healer is judged by their healing score, a tank by their protection score, etc..

You play Lethality for the same reason I play Dirty Fighting. Scrapper was horrible (a burst spec tied to stealth that they can't reenter and has the weakest burst in the game).

Basically, yes. I found that I was spending so much time not being able to stealth, that it was frustrating. Lethality seemed like the better choice for me, since you spend most of your time not worrying about stealth, anyways.

Your reasoning is invalid. Cloaking Screen provides almost zero group benefit, Toxic scan is 90 percent of the time used on yourself, and if your heals are beneficial at all than your healers are seriously under-performing.

Cloaking Screen allows me to return to a fight faster than if I had died because I didn't have it. Toxic scan is a useful tool snipers don't have, even if I just use it on myself. And as for heals, I can't expect my healers to always be able to keep me alive. Self healing is not a bad idea when your DoTs are ticking away.

It also costs a bucket load of energy and sucks our Upper hand which is worse than having no CD. Do you know how much damage a Double cull does? 8-10k damage at best. That's with full dots and Hemo and the Devouring Microbes, That's the same damage over a longer period of time than Pyro TD/RS - Snipers big shots, and as much damage as a single slam. Except unlike the other burst damage it's mitigated, by defense, armor, and able to miss. I don't underestimate it's potential at all. I completely realize that while it can be powerful it's nowhere close to as feared as it should be.

Oh, I agree that it's not the best burst in the world. It's exactly why I don't go toe to toe with people. I'd rather soften them up with DoTs first, or shoot them in the back.

On a final note, we are a dps class that means are job is to kill other targets. If you don't at least focus somewhat on our burst than what good is the class.

Well, a good Lethality Op does focus on burst when the time is right for it. But people shouldn't discount the effects of DoT and AoE damage so easily. I think it's far more valuable than people make it out to be.

Did you know our dots hit for less than Pyro's Cell dot?

Not true. My darts tick for as high as 1000 damage, and then my grenade adds on top of that. Also, the duration of the gas cylinder is only 6 seconds, so they must constantly be re-applying it for it to be doing damage. My DoTs do far far more damage for the amount of work I must do to apply them.

Also, PT's don't get Lingering Toxins, which is not only good for the extra DoT damage, but also the +15% reduction.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not claiming Lethality is on-par with PT - PT is the most OP class in the game in my opinion. I'm just pointing out that our DoTs are far more lethal.

Also, as a side note, their Burnout talent works the way that our Devouring Microbes should work (+30% damage instead of a paltry +15%).

That madness sorcs and assassins dots hit for the same amount of damage but provide better benefits?

I'd probably do well as a Madness Sorc, I don't deny it. I've seen them score some crazy numbers.

Essentially we agree, but if you just want to be a dot spammer there are a lot better classes to choose from.

Oh, perhaps there is. Good thing I'm not just a DoT spammer

Edited July 27, 2012 by MobiusZero

TheOpf · July 27, 2012

Cloaking Screen allows me to return to a fight faster than if I had died because I didn't have it. Toxic scan is a useful tool snipers don't have, even if I just use it on myself. And as for heals, I can't expect my healers to always be able to keep me alive. Self healing is not a bad idea when your DoTs are ticking away.

Except we were talking about group utility, not self utility. Self heals, self cleansing, and cloaking screen provide zero benefit as opposed to Ballistic shield and Knockbacks. I am not talking about what we can do versus someone. I am talking about the ability to help your team as a whole and still do damage.

Not true. My darts tick for as high as 1000 damage, and then my grenade adds on top of that. Also, the duration of the gas cylinder is only 6 seconds, so they must constantly be re-applying it for it to be doing damage. My DoTs do far far more damage for the amount of work I must do to apply them.

Also, PT's don't get Lingering Toxins, which is not only good for the extra DoT damage, but also the +15% reduction. Don't get me wrong, I'm not claiming Lethality is on-par with PT - PT is the most OP class in the game in my opinion. I'm just pointing out that our DoTs are far more lethal.

Also, as a side note, their Burnout talent works the way that our Devouring Microbes should work (+30% damage instead of a paltry +15%).

Except you are wrong. I have tested this with my guild vanguard. His Plasma Cell dot which is attached to his base attack which means it's always up and contains a 50 percent slow. Ticks for as high as 1k and he has seen 1.2k ticks which is about on par with Vital shot. We have the grenade so does he except his is elemental damage so his doesn't get mitigated as much as ours does. Lingering Toxins meet the Pyro tree which buffs CGC by 30 percent. Go find your guild PT and test his dots. The Pyro Dots are the OP portion of their damage.

In fact every tree in the PT/VG line becomes up to 10 percent more powerful by using Plasma/CGC instead of the tank or AP/Tactics Cell.

I'd probably do well as a Madness Sorc, I don't deny it. I've seen them score some crazy numbers

Oh, perhaps there is. Good thing I'm not just a DoT spammer

I keep watching this War Hero Madness Sorc and Assassin rip through me every other day. I see them regularly. When it's me and my commando buddy against them we almost always lose. My only hope is if our Vanguard comes to help. When he is there we have a shot. Their slows, healing dots, instant whirlwind (crazy powerful) and Creeping Terror, not to mention some of them skip creeping terror and hit you with that crap shield that does a massive stun.

Edited July 27, 2012 by TheOpf

Jayshames · July 27, 2012

I thought Operative was good 10-49, it's only use currently at 50 is healing. Concealment is only good for PvP if your fully geared, PvE it's useless. Lethality can be good for both PvE and PvP if geared well, but no one will take an Operative DPS over a Marauder. It's as simple as that, Marauders don't need a fix, it's Operatives who do.

Concealment spec = first heavy hitter has to be from stealth, that means you can use it like once per boss fight (operation for example) second heavy hitter has to be from behind, and this can't always be achieved on some bosses. That leaves them with 1-2 knife attacks and some DoTs which is garbage.

Rikeryo · July 27, 2012

currently dps operatives in any shape or form are a complete waste of space and every serious rwz team is better off not taking one for their team.

with best regards, a (former) dps operative

Edited July 27, 2012 by Rikeryo

MobiusZero · July 27, 2012

Except we were talking about group utility, not self utility. Self heals, self cleansing, and cloaking screen provide zero benefit as opposed to Ballistic shield and Knockbacks. I am not talking about what we can do versus someone. I am talking about the ability to help your team as a whole and still do damage.

I just think I like the play-style of operative more than sniper. I know Lethality is the most mobile sniper, but it's still not as mobile as operative. I also like the access to heals, since Lingering Toxins makes getting out of combat to self heal a mofo. And again, two words - Imperial Brew.

Except you are wrong. I have tested this with my guild vanguard. His Plasma Cell dot which is attached to his base attack which means it's always up and contains a 50 percent slow. Ticks for as high as 1k and he has seen 1.2k ticks which is about on par with Vital shot. We have the grenade so does he except his is elemental damage so his doesn't get mitigated as much as ours does. Lingering Toxins meet the Pyro tree which buffs CGC by 30 percent. Go find your guild PT and test his dots. The Pyro Dots are the OP portion of their damage.

I agree, single target, their DoT is better, much because of the fact that their burst damage rotation requires the application of them, anyways. But what they can't do, is spread their DoTs amongst the enemy team at 30m range, and have them tick away for 18-21 seconds. PT DoTs require more active application, and thus are only potent against the enemy they are currently targetting. It's a whole different animal.

Our DoTs get more bang for their buck (3 times the duration, 3 times the range, and energy regen.).

In fact every tree in the PT/VG line becomes up to 10 percent more powerful by using Plasma/CGC instead of the tank or AP/Tactics Cell.

What's sad, is that Lethality is really the spec that should get talents like these.

I keep watching this War Hero Madness Sorc and Assassin rip through me every other day. I see them regularly. When it's me and my commando buddy against them we almost always lose. My only hope is if our Vanguard comes to help. When he is there we have a shot. Their slows, healing dots, instant whirlwind (crazy powerful) and Creeping Terror, not to mention some of them skip creeping terror and hit you with that crap shield that does a massive stun.

I've actually considered making a Madness sorc for a long time. Problem is, I don't have the time to play, to start a whole new character. Plus jedi are lame

Edited July 27, 2012 by MobiusZero

What's wrong with Operatives?

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