What's wrong with Operatives?

[Roxax]

Seriously, you're level 22 and talking like you know about the class. So much derp. I've been playing Operative since beta, and as a PvE player I'm sick of being nerfed and gimped for PvP balance. No gap closer, poor sustained damage and sod all utility.

 

I must be a masochist to still be playing this class as my main, my Sniper is better in every respect.

 

Again, please read all of my posts since you're clearly only reading the first page. The Operative got me into this game, I've played it ALOT before subscribing myself due to the fact that my friend wanted me to "give it a try" (I was boycotting this since no KOTOR 3). This was my first class and I've played it, consistently, and at 50 for AWHILE.

[Sookster]

I was being sarcastic in my post, I've had my operative since December (dinged 50 early January after dinging my first 50 which is a jugg), sadly I disagree that operatives are "fine", yes WH-aug geared operatives in regular warzones will smash faces against BM and recruits but when you actually play one in a ranked WZ you're in for a treat. Why do you think there's 1 in every 100 or more players that actually plays a concealment operative these days? It's just atrocious, you knock down a player, the moment they get back up they either stun you and run away or knock you back and snare/root you, I do this all the time on my other characters- concealment operatives are the easiest to ignore because once you open the gap, they have very little to deal with and doesn't have a gap closer.

 

Anyone that burns the CC break on the initial hidden strike knockdown has lessons to learn, and if you get back up and let the operative debilitate you, that's another lesson, and if you stand there casting a heal after standing up, the operative won.

 

Concealment operatives can win against new and dumb players, in rated they won't get far and will get focus fired as soon as they pop out of stealth.

 

No, they're not fine.

[TheOpf]

I was being sarcastic in my post, I've had my operative since December (dinged 50 early January after dinging my first 50 which is a jugg), sadly I disagree that operatives are "fine", yes WH-aug geared operatives in regular warzones will smash faces against BM and recruits but when you actually play one in a ranked WZ you're in for a treat. Why do you think there's 1 in every 100 or more players that actually plays a concealment operative these days? It's just atrocious, you knock down a player, the moment they get back up they either stun you and run away or knock you back and snare/root you, I do this all the time on my other characters- concealment operatives are the easiest to ignore because once you open the gap, they have very little to deal with and doesn't have a gap closer.

 

Anyone that burns the CC break on the initial hidden strike knockdown has lessons to learn, and if you get back up and let the operative debilitate you, that's another lesson, and if you stand there casting a heal after standing up, the operative won.

 

Concealment operatives can win against new and dumb players, in rated they won't get far and will get focus fired as soon as they pop out of stealth.

 

No, they're not fine.

 

Lethality is okay. I can do three times the damage than I can as conceal, and kill people significantly easier because it's easier to kite. The AoE slow and flashbang make Lethality more useful to a group.

 

Conceal needs some serious love. Currently after a week of testing it's most viable when teamed up with a Mara or Pyro to blow someone up. Those two together can make sure no one lives long.

[Jedi_Gamer]

Again, please read all of my posts since you're clearly only reading the first page. The Operative got me into this game, I've played it ALOT before subscribing myself due to the fact that my friend wanted me to "give it a try" (I was boycotting this since no KOTOR 3). This was my first class and I've played it, consistently, and at 50 for AWHILE.

 

Dude give up, these ppl just want a full overpower class to be able to kill everybody easily, I allready told to some of themthat they should try a korean mmo or something that have a overpower class. Just mind you one thing, some ppl know how to explore ALL RESOURSES of the character and other ppl don't.

Edited July 18, 2012 by Jedi_Gamer

[Sookster]

Dude give up, these ppl just want a full overpower class to be able to kill everybody easily

 

I'm pretty sure most of them has already done that, must be why powertech is so popular now... right?

[Jedi_Gamer]

I'm pretty sure most of them has already done that, must be why powertech is so popular now... right?

 

I still preffer my mercenary.

[Carnaje]

Ahem, please read all I've posted. Operatives are what started me on this game since I was constantly using my friends prior to subscribing myself. I happen to have played it quite a bit. Just because my OWN Operative is only 22 that doesn't mean I have no prior experience with the class itself. I have addressed this, if you choose to ignore it be my guest.

 

The fact you are missing is that you do not get all your skills to higher lvls so your experiences and a lvl 50 experience are totally different. So you have no prior experience with the class problems since you are lacking half of them. You dont even have hidden strike or acid blade yet.

 

Edit: If you truly want to know whats wrong with the class listen to the people trying to answer your question or read the class feedback. Some of those people are totally honest and right with their posts.

Edited July 19, 2012 by Carnaje

[Jonespiano]

Lethality is okay. I can do three times the damage than I can as conceal, and kill people significantly easier because it's easier to kite. The AoE slow and flashbang make Lethality more useful to a group.

 

Conceal needs some serious love. Currently after a week of testing it's most viable when teamed up with a Mara or Pyro to blow someone up. Those two together can make sure no one lives long.

 

If you have two DPS of any class running around together and assisting, they will kill their target. Their contributions will also be of no value in most warzones because it will mean staying away from the objectives and, consequently, getting no objective points.

 

I've noticed a tendency towards "meat-grinder" Huttball matches that devolve into a DPS race to focus-fire and chain-stun whoever has the ball, while the team with the ball stands behind using their AoEs. I guess it's easier to get objective points by killing the ball carrier. They get healed through it as long as the healer can manage it, but there is so much CC and snaring that they never get anywhere. Then they lose it because they don't or can't pass, and the same thing happens in reverse again. I've seen more 0-0 matches, and the tactical, fun 6-5's have disappeared.

 

For PvP, damage numbers are completely irrelevant. I'll say that again: the numbers mean nothing. A Concealment Operative will do vastly more good with a well-timed Sleep Dart/Flash Bang on someone trying to cap in Voidstar, hence legitimately buying time, than he would do trying to chain stun him and burst him down. Or he can try to plant before the opposing team has even figured out what side to go to. In Huttball, he can stealth on the rafters waiting for a pass, then decloak to receive the pass and benefit from his talented movement buff. In Denova or Civil War, he can move quickly undetected between nodes to scout. Let the FotM's chase the biggest numbers.

 

I also haven't seen the evidence that Operative is particularly weak in PvE DPS. Marauders are too far ahead and will undoubtedly get nerfed in some way; for any other class, 1300-1400 dps is what is typically expected in an optimal situation and appropriate gear, and Operatives are capable of this.

[Urothefox]

I love my concealment op now. All it took was full war hero/campaigner-equivalent gear and ranked war zones to weed out the well-geared, overpowered FOTM class players from the non-ranked warzones. I actually backstabbed some poor schmo for 4800 the other night. Eagerly awaiting the return of the 5K damage hits.

 

DPS ops aren't dead per se. They just need optimal gear and undergeared opponents...heck of a design flaw imo

[tacito]

I love my concealment op now. All it took was full war hero/campaigner-equivalent gear and ranked war zones to weed out the well-geared, overpowered FOTM class players from the non-ranked warzones. I actually backstabbed some poor schmo for 4800 the other night. Eagerly awaiting the return of the 5K damage hits.

 

DPS ops aren't dead per se. They just need optimal gear and undergeared opponents...heck of a design flaw imo

Yeah, I think our creed always was "We roll bads". I agree, it's tons of fun when it happens, but look at it this way: In order to reliably kill someone, you had to acquire well above average gear and fight probably less "skilled" players, as most of the others went to rated warzones. I also sometimes kill someone without him having even the slightest chance of fighting back. Though that means he went to war in a mix of recruit gear and quest greens. Still, it IS fun.

I think the biggest problem is the lack of multi-purpose utility. I've played a huttball match today with 4 marauders, me, two sorc healers and a powertech. Had I been on the opposing team, my keyboard would've probably left a crater on the wall after I threw it in frustration. 4 leaping characters that each can provide a team sprint, enemy and friendly pulls from the others, knockbacks all over the place and sick damage on top of it. It was hilarious, but I couldn't do much more than chill out at mid and get off the occasional hit on someone daring enough to plunge into the meat grinder that is a pile of 2 marauders and a powertech.

 

It's just that, as the average player I most probably am, I don't even feel like a threat to anyone. I can't take down healers 1on1, okay, I have no problem with that. I usually can't take down tanks, well, okay. But I also can't take down DDs, because most of the time they'll just kill me first. That feels a little odd. And that's not even talking about difficulties in PvE...

Edited July 21, 2012 by tacito

[NoTomorrow]

Why are DPS operatives so unhappy? You got one of the most powerful things in this game: cloak. It allows you to attack and only attack at the best possible moment for you: when all the odds are stacked in your favor, when enemy has important stuff on cd, starved of energy, when you have everything off cd. It looks like you just fail miserably at target selection, nobody forces you into a fight that you cannot win.

 

Why do you insist attacking a pt pyro or even a tank? There is so much tremendous opportunity in concealment ops, yet you fail to take advantage of it.

 

You took those nerfs very emotionally, but it was warranted, There is video on youtube with an op doing 8900 crit hidden strike before 1.1 patch.

Edited July 23, 2012 by NoTomorrow

[MobiusZero]

Why are DPS operatives so unhappy? You got one of the most powerful things in this game: cloak. It allows you to attack and only attack at the best possible moment for you: when all the odds are stacked in your favor, when enemy has important stuff on cd, starved of energy, when you have everything off cd. It looks like you just fail miserably at target selection, nobody forces you into a fight that you cannot win.

 

Ok, so how long must a Concealment Op wait for said opportunity? 30 seconds? 1 minute? 5 minutes? Do you want them to spend 90% of a WZ in stealth? Or what if no good opportunity presents itself?

 

Or, what if they get knocked out of stealth?

 

Why do you insist attacking a pt pyro or even a tank? There is so much tremendous opportunity in concealment ops, yet you fail to take advantage of it.

 

What if the Pyro or tank is capping a node? They should just sit there in stealth and let it happen?

 

If an Operative is spending all his time in stealth waiting for the right moment to attack, then how much is he really helping his team? I'd rather have a teammate who didn't have to waste all that time in stealth doing absolutely nothing to help us win.

 

Surely, I'm not saying stealth does not have its usefulness. But it's certainly not as useful as you make it out to be. In fact, I personally see stealth as a crutch to Concealment, more than a boon, since it is a requirement for them to use hidden strike, and sometimes it's not so easy to get back into stealth.

 

Also, let's not forget Assassins, who also get stealth, but do not suffer from most of the problems that Concealment Operatives do.

 

And lastly, you overlook PvE, where stealth does not even factor in.

 

I think that you need to try playing an Operative yourself, before making these kinds of statements. It's not so simple as mashing your 3 buttons as an EZ mode PT.

 

You took those nerfs very emotionally, but it was warranted, There is video on youtube with an op doing 8900 crit hidden strike before 1.1 patch.

 

I don't think anyone here is complaining that none of the nerfs were warranted. But since 1.1, every single patch has had a nerf to Concealment. Bioware kicked Concealment to the ground, and decided it wasn't good enough, and proceeded to stomp on them for good measure.

Edited July 23, 2012 by MobiusZero

[tacito]

Why are DPS operatives so unhappy? You got one of the most powerful things in this game: cloak. It allows you to attack and only attack at the best possible moment for you: when all the odds are stacked in your favor, when enemy has important stuff on cd, starved of energy, when you have everything off cd. It looks like you just fail miserably at target selection, nobody forces you into a fight that you cannot win.

 

Why do you insist attacking a pt pyro or even a tank? There is so much tremendous opportunity in concealment ops, yet you fail to take advantage of it.

 

You took those nerfs very emotionally, but it was warranted, There is video on youtube with an op doing 8900 crit hidden strike before 1.1 patch.

 

Yes, indeed. Why are they unhappy. I'll tell you: Because they're bad and can't utilize what the AC has to offer, that's why.

 

I employ all tools Bioware gives to me. Doing this, I can carry my ops group basically solo. I sneak up on a boss, wait for the best opportunity to strike. Select my target wisely. I don't go after the 4th boss. No sir. I go after the first. Then the second. This is key. First bosses first.

 

So when I'm set on my target, I'll wait for the boss to rebuff. During his cast time for the CC immunity buff, I use that short window to knock him down and inflict 8900 points of crit damage. He can't retaliate, of course, so I'm almost sure to win. He casts his immunity a second time, only now he's out of energy - and I still have all my cooldowns! So, naturally, I pop evasion and Shield Probe, raising my damage output to Dragon Ball Z-ish levels, while forming an impenetrable defense.

 

At this point, the boss has maybe 20% life left, but now he's striking back at me. Bummer. So I wait for his CC immunity to run out and flashbang him, healing myself to full during that time. Afterwards, I use Cloaking Screen for some added Hidden Strike/Knockdown action. Boss is down, my group once more is awarded loot and I'm the hero of the day. As always. Even if I need another player to help me sometimes, I'm STILL brought because of my awesome group utility. Like Acid Blade or Weakening Blast, providing increased damage to ALL groupmembers sharing my character name.

 

Of course, all this is while circle strafing around that boss to get off those backstabs. *********** keyboard turner, that dude. Could kill him with my hands behind my back. So all those unhappy operatives should really just go and learn how to play. Jeez. Just because YOU are that bad doesn't mean I am too.

 

Edited July 23, 2012 by tacito

[NoTomorrow]

Ok, so how long must a Concealment Op wait for said opportunity? 30 seconds? 1 minute? 5 minutes? Do you want them to spend 90% of a WZ in stealth? Or what if no good opportunity presents itself?

 

Or, what if they get knocked out of stealth?

 

If you want to be that powerful so that you dont even need to consider attacking at opportunistic moments, than the stealth should only be temporary, like marauder invis. Sorry but you cannot have the best of both worlds. You are guarding comfortably a point while invisible and you always have 100% initiative against anyone that comes to cap. You and asassins are the best lone defenders of points and doors. You can sleepdart anybody, nobody can sleepdart you. Isnt this a big enough advantage?

 

As for waiting for the opportunity, its all about knowing other classes and their abilities. If you cannot spot an opening in a class defenses, then perhaps you are playing the wrong class. Whats so difficult in spotting the recent use of force shroud, entrench, merc healer bubble, any class with low on energy/force, any sniper out of cover or in cover without ballistic dampers, how often do enemy players run hurt behind a corner to save themselves from ranged dps?? WHY ARE YOU NOT WAITING ALREADY FOR THEM THERE? How long does this list has to be to open your eyes at the golden opportunities you've got?

 

What if the Pyro or tank is capping a node? They should just sit there in stealth and let it happen?

 

If an Operative is spending all his time in stealth waiting for the right moment to attack, then how much is he really helping his team? I'd rather have a teammate who didn't have to waste all that time in stealth doing absolutely nothing to help us win.

 

Surely, I'm not saying stealth does not have its usefulness. But it's certainly not as useful as you make it out to be. In fact, I personally see stealth as a crutch to Concealment, more than a boon, since it is a requirement for them to use hidden strike, and sometimes it's not so easy to get back into stealth.

 

Also, let's not forget Assassins, who also get stealth, but do not suffer from most of the problems that Concealment Operatives do.

 

You had penty of time to see the pyro coming, call for help, wait for him to reach 6 seconds at capping, sleepdart him for another valuable time. And then survive long enough for reinforcements to come. Basically you can give 30 seconds warning ahead of time to your team. Oh and if an invisible class comes to cap, you have no right to complain as the initiative is still yours. Seriously, complaining about an invisibe class while you are yourself invisible is like snipers complaining about other snipers using diversion to remove them out of cover

 

Why I as a sniper have to accept concealment ops being my counter class while you cannot accept having a little more tough challenge against a PT?

 

And lastly, you overlook PvE, where stealth does not even factor in.

 

I think that you need to try playing an Operative yourself, before making these kinds of statements. It's not so simple as mashing your 3 buttons as an EZ mode PT.

 

I don't think anyone here is complaining that none of the nerfs were warranted. But since 1.1, every single patch has had a nerf to Concealment. Bioware kicked Concealment to the ground, and decided it wasn't good enough, and proceeded to stomp on them for good measure.

 

I dont give a damn about operative in pve. There is always healing and lethality. I challenge you to use eginering efectively in end game raiding as a sniper: especially against bonetrasher, firebrand and other tank and kephess. Many classes have specs that are not very good for pve. Deal with it.

 

As for your petty insults, my main has always been my sniper, i rolled PT to understand the source of their incredible burst. After experiencing the class playstyle, i never lost a single fight against pyros as a sniper, if my attention was focused on them.

 

May be you should consider playing other classes if you cannot adapt to the gameplay concept behind concealment. roll a PT for example.

Edited July 23, 2012 by NoTomorrow

[Carnaje]

Notomorrow, its not that we want to so powerful that we can face role everyone. We want to be on equal ground to fight. What your saying for us to do is sit there and be a little ******* with almost all classes. Then sleep someone till our mommy or daddy can kill them. That sounds dumb and like there is something wrong with the class.

 

Personally, i think there is an unsaid imbalance between pure dps classes and ones with a survivability role. Look at an assassin for example. Since the start of the game they all went dark charge for the defense while doin almost as much dps as their dps roles. Even after the nerf on darkness, this is still the case. PT the best burst dmg in the game. Juggs, 6k *** ae. Marauders 3 defensive cool downs with more dps then us (and yes they have stealth too as a get out of jail free card.) The justification on our ability to heal does not even come close to counter their abilities with added dps unless you go mostly heals. Which is why you see so many op healers and minimal dps. The other class i feel bad for is Mercs.

 

Heh, for the 30 second comment. The way i think of it is if the person knows what they are doing they can protect a node for that long playing their class to full on matter what class. Just for example, assassins can just simply last longer, Sorcs can los heal and cc like a mother****er, Marauders IF they need to can pop undying rage and vanish not counting their other cooldowns. So what if ours is stealth which you are not adding in that other classes can see us from 15m away (BW stealth is the worst i have played in any game.) Also, our stealth advantage is not for defense since we have one of the worst survivability in game,its for offence. To not give the other team 6 secs while we run in to attack the target. To Kill them before they have time to get help. Aka the purpose for the class. I guess the irony is its become defense with all our dps nerfs.

 

P.S. I dont think Ops are that bad off. They just need some tweeking. If you fight an equally skilled player with equal gear, the Op is at a disadvantages with the nerfed dps, little sustained dps, the worst energy mechanics, and bad survivability.

[Mystyfan]

I

I dont give a damn about operative in pve.

 

Awwwwww you mean it? Thanks! us pve concealment ops luv you too.

Edited July 24, 2012 by Mystyfan

[MobiusZero]

If you want to be that powerful so that you dont even need to consider attacking at opportunistic moments, than the stealth should only be temporary, like marauder invis. Sorry but you cannot have the best of both worlds. You are guarding comfortably a point while invisible and you always have 100% initiative against anyone that comes to cap. You and asassins are the best lone defenders of points and doors. You can sleepdart anybody, nobody can sleepdart you. Isnt this a big enough advantage?

 

So you say that the role of a Concealment Op is to stand around in stealth throwing sleep darts?

 

Also, it's interesting how you bring Assassins into the discussion, yet somehow overlook the fact that Concealment Operatives are without a doubt lacking in DPS and utility in comparison? There is absolutely no reason for a RWZ team to choose a Concealment Operative over an Assassin, due to Concealment being underpowered in comparison.

 

As for waiting for the opportunity, its all about knowing other classes and their abilities. If you cannot spot an opening in a class defenses, then perhaps you are playing the wrong class. Whats so difficult in spotting the recent use of force shroud, entrench, merc healer bubble, any class with low on energy/force, any sniper out of cover or in cover without ballistic dampers, how often do enemy players run hurt behind a corner to save themselves from ranged dps?? WHY ARE YOU NOT WAITING ALREADY FOR THEM THERE? How long does this list has to be to open your eyes at the golden opportunities you've got?

 

And if those golden opportunities are few and far between? You are making the assumption that there are constant golden opportunities to make the class valuable enough. The true fact is, a Concealment Operative wastes too much time in stealth, doing absolutely nothing for their team, waiting for the "golden opportunity." And once they pop out of stealth, they typically have a very difficult time getting back in to it, and thus have a whole slew of other problems.

 

You look at stealth as being some huge beneficial thing for an Operative. For an assassin, absolutely! But for an Operative? Hardly. For an Assassin, stealth is a convenient tool. For an Operative, it's more than just a tool, because their damage is reliant on it. I personally see stealth as a crutch for a Concealment Op, because the reality of a WZ, is that they are often unable to get into stealth when needed, and thus are substantially handicapped because of it.

 

You had penty of time to see the pyro coming, call for help, wait for him to reach 6 seconds at capping, sleepdart him for another valuable time. And then survive long enough for reinforcements to come. Basically you can give 30 seconds warning ahead of time to your team.

 

So again, you place the value of Concealment on their ability to sleep dart? For some reason, that actually makes the class sound rather pathetic!

 

So they can sleep dart and call for help? Lol, real balance there. Real balance.

 

Oh and if an invisible class comes to cap, you have no right to complain as the initiative is still yours. Seriously, complaining about an invisibe class while you are yourself invisible is like snipers complaining about other snipers using diversion to remove them out of cover

 

Funny how you like to use the term "invisible," as if Concealment Ops are somehow immune to detection. So what happens when someone spots them, or an AoE knocks them out of stealth? Where's their "invisibility" then?

 

Why I as a sniper have to accept concealment ops being my counter class while you cannot accept having a little more tough challenge against a PT?

 

Your counter class? Maybe for the less-skilled sniper. Which is, I'd surmise, what you in fact are, judging by the argument you are making in this thread.

 

I dont give a damn about operative in pve. There is always healing and lethality. I challenge you to use eginering efectively in end game raiding as a sniper: especially against bonetrasher, firebrand and other tank and kephess. Many classes have specs that are not very good for pve. Deal with it.

 

Interesting. Would you like to compare Lethality Operative PvE parses to Engineering? Please do, so that you'll see how little you know about operative problems, and why you have no business posting here.

 

As for your petty insults, my main has always been my sniper, i rolled PT to understand the source of their incredible burst. After experiencing the class playstyle, i never lost a single fight against pyros as a sniper, if my attention was focused on them.

 

May be you should consider playing other classes if you cannot adapt to the gameplay concept behind concealment. roll a PT for example.

 

You're making the assumption that I'm even a Concealment Op, and that I have issues fighting PTs. But honestly, neither have any import. Whether I have the proper skills to handle PT's or not, does not mean that Concealment Operatives are not underpowered. Skill can make up for class deficiencies, and most Concealment Ops that are still around, must have a higher than average skill level to remain competitive.

 

Also, I'd like you to listen to your own advice, and try playing a Concealment Op post 50, and then try to come here and tell us that they are just fine.

[NoTomorrow]

So you say that the role of a Concealment Op is to stand around in stealth throwing sleep darts?

 

Also, it's interesting how you bring Assassins into the discussion, yet somehow overlook the fact that Concealment Operatives are without a doubt lacking in DPS and utility in comparison? There is absolutely no reason for a RWZ team to choose a Concealment Operative over an Assassin, due to Concealment being underpowered in comparison.

[/Quote]

 

Where i heard this before? This complaint has come not only from DPS operatives about RWZ composition. And it does not have to be entirely linked to DPS Operatives themselves. I've seen RWZ teams with 2 dps ops no problem. I am not into bringing anecdotal evidence but its not the end of the world. Look at DPS mercs, now this is a gimped class.

 

And if those golden opportunities are few and far between? You are making the assumption that there are constant golden opportunities to make the class valuable enough. The true fact is, a Concealment Operative wastes too much time in stealth, doing absolutely nothing for their team, waiting for the "golden opportunity." And once they pop out of stealth, they typically have a very difficult time getting back in to it, and thus have a whole slew of other problems.

 

Because this was the overall design concept behind the class. It's working as intended. You are given the tools to be an opportunist. If you cannot identify opportunities, you should not play the class. You have a wrong mindset for a cloak and dagger class, may be you had to think a little bit more when you were at the class selection screen. Opportunistic kills will never match in total damage and numbers front line kills. (This is how things work, hell we can even look at other game, not necessarily MMOs. In TF2 a Spy will never have more kills than a Soldier or a Heavy, but he is the one that can turn the tide of a battle with a few important kills.)

 

You look at stealth as being some huge beneficial thing for an Operative. For an assassin, absolutely! But for an Operative? Hardly. For an Assassin, stealth is a convenient tool. For an Operative, it's more than just a tool, because their damage is reliant on it. I personally see stealth as a crutch for a Concealment Op, because the reality of a WZ, is that they are often unable to get into stealth when needed, and thus are substantially handicapped because of it.

 

So again, you place the value of Concealment on their ability to sleep dart? For some reason, that actually makes the class sound rather pathetic!

 

So they can sleep dart and call for help? Lol, real balance there. Real balance.

Again the wrong mindset here going for raw damage numbers and kills instead of WZ objectives. You have stopped the enemy player from achieving the objective. You have already won. What sort of counter to you is a PT if he cannot see you in the first place? There is no such thing as oh crap moments for your class. All your deaths are because you either failed to assess your chances at winning the matchup or failed miserably in the fight itself although you were supposed to win. And if you were that strong out of stealth 1vs1, what would be the reason to play a front line combat class in the first place?? Imagine a Concealment OPS being strong 1vs1 outside of invisiblity and still having one when he needs it? Oh the pain..

 

As for Asasssins, they got a wonderful nerf in 1.3. They cannot have the best of both worlds now, and if they want to have extra survivability they really have to get that tanking gear now. From my personal experience, after 1.3 assassins are no longer the threat to my sniper they used to be.

 

Funny how you like to use the term "invisible," as if Concealment Ops are somehow immune to detection. So what happens when someone spots them, or an AoE knocks them out of stealth? Where's their "invisibility" then?

 

ahahahahahahahahahahaha. You as Conealment ops have trouble being detected? ahahahaahahahaahaha. I understand if a PT Pyro with passive detection was a threat to your sneaky ways, but you got Sneak ability to ensure that you will always get undetected to your target of choice. Please please.. don't tell me that if you are one of those fail ops that get caught into stealth scan..

 

Your counter class? Maybe for the less-skilled sniper. Which is, I'd surmise, what you in fact are, judging by the argument you are making in this thread.

If you as a concealment OPS fail to kill an equally skilled sniper, then no amount of buffs will help you. Ever. Sorry. This match-up is designed to favor the operative. Other classes have trouble against snipers because they cannot stand in their line of sight for too long. You have none of these problems. Since you are that good at assuming all sort of random things about me, I can assume as well that you are probably one of those ops that attack snipers with balistic dampers left, or even worse.. with entrench and shield probe on. I am absolutely certain and without any doubt, that if you as a sniper and me an operative met in outlaws den, i would win more than 50% of duels against you.

 

Interesting. Would you like to compare Lethality Operative PvE parses to Engineering? Please do, so that you'll see how little you know about operative problems, and why you have no business posting here.

 

LOL, try hitting kephess with orbital strike and plasma probe - a good chunk of your DPS abilities as engineering, while he moves all over place. Please.. The only problem that Ops lethality has is the ranged TA generation which i agree would be a very nice thing to have.

 

You're making the assumption that I'm even a Concealment Op, and that I have issues fighting PTs. But honestly, neither have any import. Whether I have the proper skills to handle PT's or not, does not mean that Concealment Operatives are not underpowered. Skill can make up for class deficiencies, and most Concealment Ops that are still around, must have a higher than average skill level to remain competitive.

 

Also, I'd like you to listen to your own advice, and try playing a Concealment Op post 50, and then try to come here and tell us that they are just fine.

 

So you are not even a Conealment OP in the first place? Let me guess?

Surgical probe, Surgical probe, Surgical probe, Surgical probe, Surgical probe, Surgical probe ?

[TKMaster]

Marauders never got a huge buff. Other classes just got nerfed, and people started to realize how good they really are.

 

And you can't chalk up such a huge disparity in class numbers, to people wanting a "shiny new toy." Perhaps if the ratio was 2 to 1, or 3 to 1, I could stomach it. But 20 to 1? That's a huge indicator that there is a problem. You can't chalk that up to people being FoTM re-rollers. Especially when we're talking about the class that most people feel has the best story, and that most people claim is one of the most fun to play.

 

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?

[tacito]

I dont give a damn about operative in pve. There is always healing and lethality. I challenge you to use eginering efectively in end game raiding as a sniper: especially against bonetrasher, firebrand and other tank and kephess. Many classes have specs that are not very good for pve. Deal with it.

 

Ah, I think here lies the reason for your hard time understanding the resentments of operatives. Agreed, maybe Engineering isn't the best damage spec for snipers out there (I really don't know too much about our long ranged colleagues), that still leaves you two other specs plus maybe some hybrid specs to fulfil the role you chose. If the shared tree was the medicine one, I don't think you'd appreciate someone telling you "Quit your whining, go heal". So no, speccing for heals isn't going to improve my damage in operations. Quite the opposite, actually, which may surprise you.

 

That leaves Lethality, and again: Going from Concealment to Lethality currently improves my dps by... 15. Yup. Of course I'm not the most brilliant player this world has ever seen, most likely I'm an average player (or within one standard deviation from the average). So, most likely, my performance is similar to what most other players can deliver. That means that, on average, there may be a problem with an operative's damage output in operations. No matter the spec.

 

In case you want to emphasize the "then go spec heal" argument: My operation group has enough healers. Who enjoy their task. My task is to substract from the enemy's health, by means of skills fit to deal damage. Such skills are not improved in the Medicine tree. Please think this over.

 

Were the huge crits of 1.0 and such ridiculous? Certainly, though I've never achieved them. Did the nerfs go too far? Judging from the PvE perfomance: Sustained damage output could well be improved without making the class mandatory.

But my biggest point of support for "DD operatives are basically neutered" is the following: In the PvP section of this forum, on the first 5 pages (at time of writing) not a SINGLE post claims concealment or lethality operatives overpowered. Not a single one. In the forum that revolves around calling everyone who has killed you more than twice today overpowered.

 

Case closed.

[Sookster]

Why are DPS operatives so unhappy? You got one of the most powerful things in this game: cloak. It allows you to attack and only attack at the best possible moment for you: when all the odds are stacked in your favor, when enemy has important stuff on cd, starved of energy, when you have everything off cd. It looks like you just fail miserably at target selection, nobody forces you into a fight that you cannot win.

 

Why do you insist attacking a pt pyro or even a tank? There is so much tremendous opportunity in concealment ops, yet you fail to take advantage of it.

 

You took those nerfs very emotionally, but it was warranted, There is video on youtube with an op doing 8900 crit hidden strike before 1.1 patch.

 

My madness assassin does a much better job than concealment operative does. Both of my operative and assassin are fairly equally geared in pvp.

 

And why did you bring pre-1.1 up which is irrelevant now? That existed in beta for a couple years and BW ignored that until after release to change it. Sad part is they nerfed acid blade and such before nerfing surge, they should've changed surge first and guage how operative were doing after. That 8900 hidden strike was most likely from stacking 120% surge.

 

Let's not forget that for a short time after 1.2, merc's heatseeker missile was doing 8500-9000 damage and devs broke it after.

Edited July 24, 2012 by Sookster

[Ryemfoh]

My madness assassin does a much better job than concealment operative does. Both of my operative and assassin are fairly equally geared in pvp.

 

A much better job of what? The two classes / specs are different, and are better / worse at different things. Even if it were possible to compare them "equally", Madness is more like Lethality than Concealment and you should rather be looking at the Deception tree, and even then the two are different enough to make comparisons fairly meaningless.

 

I still think that Operatives could use some tweaking, but as things stand I agree with NoTomorrow that the class is powerful in the right role (and in the right hands).

[MobiusZero]

Where i heard this before? This complaint has come not only from DPS operatives about RWZ composition. And it does not have to be entirely linked to DPS Operatives themselves. I've seen RWZ teams with 2 dps ops no problem. I am not into bringing anecdotal evidence but its not the end of the world. Look at DPS mercs, now this is a gimped class.

 

Not into bringing anecdotal evidence? That's pretty much all that you have been doing this entire time.

 

The facts are, that by recorded observations from players, DPS Operatives are about as rare in RWZ's as Mercenaries are. Surely, a Concealment Op can most certainly be an asset to a RWZ, but that's because most Concealment Ops tend to have a great deal of skill with the class, due to there being an absolute need for it, in order to be competitive (as I believe I said earlier).

 

Let me explain to you why people tend to think Concealment Ops are not so bad off...

 

Most Concealment Ops struggle so much with the spec, that they either quit, change classes, or switch to healing. Don't believe me? When's the last time you saw a Concealment Op in any WZ that wasn't in WH gear? You see, most Concealment Ops you run into now, are well geared, and are very skilled. Those that didn't have the skill/gear, stopped playing Concealment, because they couldn't cut it. It's exactly why the spec is so rare.

 

I personally see a Concealment Op in a WZ maybe once or twice a week, and they are always in WH gear, and know the class very well.

 

95% of the time you see an Operative in a WZ, they are a healer. This is the only spec that an average player can use in PvP.

 

Because this was the overall design concept behind the class. It's working as intended. You are given the tools to be an opportunist. If you cannot identify opportunities, you should not play the class. You have a wrong mindset for a cloak and dagger class, may be you had to think a little bit more when you were at the class selection screen. Opportunistic kills will never match in total damage and numbers front line kills. (This is how things work, hell we can even look at other game, not necessarily MMOs. In TF2 a Spy will never have more kills than a Soldier or a Heavy, but he is the one that can turn the tide of a battle with a few important kills.)

 

So if it was our class design to dance around in a pink tutu doing pirouettes and performing sweet dance moves for the enemy, that would mean everything would be fine?

 

I'm sorry, but Bioware's design concept isn't some infallible, all seeing, all knowing, omnipotent system of class balance. If no one is playing the class because it sucks, then it's a bad class concept. Only a stupid company would try to stick with their flawed concept if it meant no one would play the class.

 

Using the design concept argument is silly, and is basically saying "Oh, it's fine for the game to be imbalanced, since the classes are designed that way." Good luck having a successful game with that philosophy!

 

Again the wrong mindset here going for raw damage numbers and kills instead of WZ objectives.

 

Ok, so again, you are trying to argue that our one skill, sleep dart, somehow defines our entire class, and our role in PvP. Our ability to delay someone for a few seconds....

 

Oh, and Assassins get the same ability, just FYI.

 

Raw damage numbers certainly aren't everything in a WZ, but that doesn't mean there isn't a point where a class is not doing enough raw damage to be balanced. To say that raw damage is unimportant in a WZ, as a DPS class, is just plain stupid. Raw damage is the most important thing of all, as a Concealment Op. Aside from buying a few seconds with sleep dart, raw damage is absolutely crucial for successful objective control.

 

You have stopped the enemy player from achieving the objective. You have already won.

 

Correction, I have stopped them for like 7 seconds. Last I checked that does not win the objective - it just buys time. Ultimately I need to be able to win a fight, in order to achieve the objective.

 

What sort of counter to you is a PT if he cannot see you in the first place? There is no such thing as oh crap moments for your class. All your deaths are because you either failed to assess your chances at winning the matchup or failed miserably in the fight itself although you were supposed to win.

 

Oh? So what if it's a 6 vs 6 battle, and the Concealment Op attacks a vulnerable target, but gets focused by the enemy and quickly killed?

 

Or what if they get hit by AoE or stealth scan before they get their HS off?

 

Or what if they get spotted in stealth?

 

Or what if one of infinite other circumstances come about, that was completely unpredictable?

 

I'd love to have some all-seeing power that lets me know exactly when every fight will go in my favor no matter what.

 

And if you were that strong out of stealth 1vs1, what would be the reason to play a front line combat class in the first place?? Imagine a Concealment OPS being strong 1vs1 outside of invisiblity and still having one when he needs it? Oh the pain..

 

And I think this is where you really need to understand the issues with Concealment Ops. Even with their stealth opener, it's very difficult to kill someone. Even the burst of their opener was over-nerfed, making it so that you must have a great deal more skill than your target in order to win.

 

Also, since their damage is so dependent on stealth, once they use their opener, then what? They are stuck in the open, and suddenly don't have their "invisibility" advantage. In fact, if it was merely easier to get back into stealth, you'd probably hear most Concealment Ops stop complaining.

 

Lastly, if the target CCs them, it's very easy for them to escape, due to the lack of Concealment having a gap closer.

 

Ultimately, there are many issues with Concealment, but really if any one of them were fixed, it would make the class more viable. It's just the combination of all of them, that really make it an under-performing class. Merely fixing one facet, would go a long way for the class.

 

As for Asasssins, they got a wonderful nerf in 1.3. They cannot have the best of both worlds now, and if they want to have extra survivability they really have to get that tanking gear now. From my personal experience, after 1.3 assassins are no longer the threat to my sniper they used to be.

 

Yet assassins are still more powerful and bring more utility, than Concealment Ops.

 

ahahahahahahahahahahaha. You as Conealment ops have trouble being detected? ahahahaahahahaahaha. I understand if a PT Pyro with passive detection was a threat to your sneaky ways, but you got Sneak ability to ensure that you will always get undetected to your target of choice. Please please.. don't tell me that if you are one of those fail ops that get caught into stealth scan..

 

This really shows how little you know about the class.

 

I am absolutely certain and without any doubt, that if you as a sniper and me an operative met in outlaws den, i would win more than 50% of duels against you.

 

So then it sounds to me like Concealment Operatives are not as much a counter to your class, as you were saying. Basically, from your statements, you are trying to argue that a Concealment Op must have a much higher amount of skill than average, in order to be a counter to snipers. In fact, you go so far as to even challenge me to a duel. If Operatives were such a huge counter to you, then why would you be so confident in dueling one?

 

I think that pretty much made my point. An average sniper should not be threatened by an average Concealment Operative. It's only the ones that are highly skilled that can beat you. Interestingly, this would be the case with any class, if played by a highly skilled player (Granted, said player would actually perform better with most other classes.).

 

I'd actually love to duel you, though it would prove nothing, especially since I am not even Concealment. If you play on Bastion, bring it on!

 

LOL, try hitting kephess with orbital strike and plasma probe - a good chunk of your DPS abilities as engineering, while he moves all over place. Please.. The only problem that Ops lethality has is the ranged TA generation which i agree would be a very nice thing to have.

 

Again, compare the worst sniper PvE spec, to the "best" Operative DPS PvE spec, and you will see a huge difference. Your argument is flawed, because you assume that the best Operative DPS spec is balanced in PvE, when it's not. You can't compare Engineering spec, because sadly, it's still better than any Operative DPS spec.

 

So you are not even a Conealment OP in the first place? Let me guess?

Surgical probe, Surgical probe, Surgical probe, Surgical probe, Surgical probe, Surgical probe ?

 

Not sure what you are trying to say here. Are you making fun of Operative healers? Sadly, most players are forced to play as one, because it's the only Operative spec they can play competitively in PvP.

 

I still think that Operatives could use some tweaking, but as things stand I agree with NoTomorrow that the class is powerful in the right role (and in the right hands).

 

You agree that Operatives need tweaking, just like the rest of us. So why do you keep making these types of posts? Seems to me like you try to argue that operatives are just fine, but then turn around and say that they need tweaking. So which is it?

 

It's people like you that are hindering any tweaks being made to Concealment Ops.

Edited July 24, 2012 by MobiusZero

[tacito]

You agree that Operatives need tweaking, just like the rest of us. So why do you keep making these types of posts? Seems to me like you try to argue that operatives are just fine, but then turn around and say that they need tweaking. So which is it?

It's people like you that are hindering any tweaks being made to Concealment Ops.

 

I think it's because higher damage output for operatives means more trouble for snipers. Concealment Operatives have almost every tool it takes to annoy a sniper to no end. Stealth -> can't keep them away in the first place. Knockdown from stealth -> broken from cover, no Cover Pulse. Evasion -> No Ambush knockback. Self Cleanse -> no Cover Pulse root, dots gone fast. They have a snare of their own, so stun -> run away has reduced effect.

 

I think it's funny how, now that as you correctly say most operatives have either specced heal or rerolled, people start having enormous trouble with snipers and gunslingers. Because they're not as easily harassed as before.

 

Of course I may be wrong on this, but the coincidence in timing struck me after reading the PvP forums a few days ago

[Sookster]

A much better job of what? The two classes / specs are different, and are better / worse at different things. Even if it were possible to compare them "equally", Madness is more like Lethality than Concealment and you should rather be looking at the Deception tree, and even then the two are different enough to make comparisons fairly meaningless.

 

I still think that Operatives could use some tweaking, but as things stand I agree with NoTomorrow that the class is powerful in the right role (and in the right hands).

 

With my assassin I can keep the target near me, if I get knocked back I can force speed back, I have not just electricute but also instant whirlwind, maul has no cooldown timer, I can knockback those pesky marauders. And force regeneration isn't an issue because it doesn't diminish like energy regeneration does below 60%.

 

Lethality doesn't get far in RWZ because dots will get cleansed almost immediately, I do it all the time on my healer operative, concealment operatives can be completely shut down vs a premade and the fact that they have practically no gap closer nor a decent way to keep a target close to them besides sever tendon which only works <10m while creeping terror in madness is up to 30m (and force slow can get up to 15m with 2pc stalker). Sure I can stomp faces as concealment operative in regular warzones, but doesn't get far in RWZ's.

 

There are alot of advantages assassin has over operative in the dps department.

Edited July 24, 2012 by Sookster