Startling lack of defenders

[JediSandwich]

Sometimes I wonder if people think the turret controls will start shooting at the enemy if you're standing near it. There's literally no reason to stand next to the turret if you're the lone defender. Even if you start out standing 30m away from turret and someone grappled you another 30m and a previously stealthed guy immediately started capping, given your running speed is around 6m/s, you should be able to stop the cap on time assuming you've some kind of instant 30m move. Yes there are probably some scenario where you get pulled 60m away and CCed and then you lose the node but for every example of that, I can think of 10 examples where the guy standing by the turret gets mezzed by the turret and can't stop a cap. This scenario also means the enemy has at least 2 guys and you're already pretty screwed 1on2 anyway so having a slim chance of getting totally owned on a 1on2 isn't really much of a risk because 'totally owned' is the most likely outcome already.

 

I think people are too worried about the case where you start out far away, starts fighting a guy and someone sneaked behind you and capped it. But you're talking about 1on2 here, and one of the enemy is a stealther. They already have a huge advantage over you. Standing around 20m away from turret prevents the outright mez & cap which can be done by a single person, and it's far more important to defend against this then the fairly improbable case of a two guys coordianting grapple/stealth to cap (which is still not too hard to stop), because those two guys can almost certainly kill you anyway.

 

Actually you can not get mezzed & capped solo when standing on a node. If fact if you're solo and standing away from, say, a turret in civil war you increase the likelihood of a sap & cap by shadow/sin because of their force speed advantage.

[SweetOldBob]

i wonder how many times this did not work for you 1v1...

Not sure what your point is, but as the lone defender, more often than not you give up the first hit. And by the time I type out the "incoming" message, things have usually gotten much worse.

 

If you're a macho dude who always wins 1v1, kudos. But that's not the norm.

 

When I'm the lone defender, I try to avoid a 1v1 slugfest and instead focus on 1. calling for help and 2. preventing the cap. I've been working on refining the messages -- "inc" when I see enemy approaching, "need help" when I'm on the ropes and a cap may soon follow.

[Astarica]

Actually you can not get mezzed & capped solo when standing on a node. If fact if you're solo and standing away from, say, a turret in civil war you increase the likelihood of a sap & cap by shadow/sin because of their force speed advantage.

 

Assassins can't sap & cap no matter where you're standing because it takes one GCD to get out of stealth after you sap to start capping since Mind Trap is instant. Sleep dart has a travel time, so it's possible, but only if you're standing in very close to the turret. If you're 20m away, he can't possibly move 10m in the time it takes sleep dart to travel so he can't sap & cap either.

 

Force Speed is irrelevent if you have LoS to the attacker, and the further you started out away from the turret, the easier it is to have LoS since LoS is generally blocked by the turret itself, so putting more distance between you and the turret makes it harder for the stealther to get behind the turret.

[Aaroneus]

Not sure what your point is, but as the lone defender, more often than not you give up the first hit. And by the time I type out the "incoming" message, things have usually gotten much worse.

 

If you're a macho dude who always wins 1v1, kudos. But that's not the norm.

 

When I'm the lone defender, I try to avoid a 1v1 slugfest and instead focus on 1. calling for help and 2. preventing the cap. I've been working on refining the messages -- "inc" when I see enemy approaching, "need help" when I'm on the ropes and a cap may soon follow.

 

i'm not the macho 1v1 guy. that would be the OP. Personally, I do the same thing you do. Call for help in advance and prevent the cap. which rounds out my point ---> not everyone is a pylon that stands there, gets mysteriously pulled over a cliff, and gives up a node that easily.

[Daiyukie]

What annoys me even more with this capping stuff , though maybe off topic, is people in Civil War that either

 

1) After you anouce you will cap left or right also sprint to cap it themselves instead of trying to slow down enemies.

2) When you encounter this above momo and decide to try to stop people yourself so they cap it successfully they decide to cap from any angle where they dont block LOS from the obvious attackers that are closing in therby opening themselves up to a jump or a ranged interupt.

3) Anyone who stands out in the open in the area where respawns will come back from while you are capping therby becoming the person someone will jump to and get to you in time to interupt the cap.

 

Hello.. knock kock.. anyone home up there? This is not exactly brain science.

 

It's still better than spawning, dropping down onto your goal line and starting to DPS from 30m away, on your goal line for about 10 seconds, until the carrier's resolve fills and his leap comes off cooldown so he can leap to you. Then when your entire team showers you with negative commentary, you say "Chill out, it's just a game."

 

True story, 2 weeks ago. Boggled my mind. People love to lose apparently.

[Motav]

i'm not the macho 1v1 guy. that would be the OP. Personally, I do the same thing you do. Call for help in advance and prevent the cap. which rounds out my point ---> not everyone is a pylon that stands there, gets mysteriously pulled over a cliff, and gives up a node that easily.

 

 

I don't even claim to be a super amazing 1v1 guy. But if the guy is undergeared and alone he will die and there isnt much he can do other than hope someone was watching or just happened to be nearby to stop me or snag it back. If your team is winning a 14k hp Commando is not solo defense material, if you cant hold the other objective with 6 instead of 7 there is something wrong. Even someone geared may be caught off guard (i am an assassin) and may be so complacent standing there that they believe theyre safe. (im looking at you medal whoring "healers" who wound yourself for numbers). If you werentt alone people like me may not even go there.

[sharkfinsix]

Sap and cap for an operative takes a few factors to work, but is doable

 

1) solo defender standing withing sleep dart range and within LOS of the opposite side of the turret.

2) Agent standing behind the turret, just showing enough to get LOS on the target

3) solo defender has his CC breaker down

4) your team has the other team tied up reasonably somewhere, so not expecting a reinforcement within next 7-10 seconds.

 

If these conditions are met you can then sleep dart the solo defender, Take one step to be 180 degrees LOS blocked by the turret and cap the turret. His CC will wear off just before you are done the cap, but because you gave him no angle he has to waste a precious second to target and angle you. you can then Vanish and interrupt and disrupt him from capping it back till your reinforcements arrive.

 

more times then not, the enemy reinforcements arrive 1st tho, so save your flash bang for them.

[SweetOldBob]

I don't even claim to be a super amazing 1v1 guy.

My apologies. The forum has a lot of guys that would say "You can't win 1v1? L2P!". But it sounds like we are on the same page.

[Astarica]

Using sleep dart/mind trap incurs one GCD, which means you can't even unstealth until the GCD is over so you certainly cannot start capping. In the case of mind trap, the effect occurs instantly, so whoever you mez has 8 seconds left to be mezzed while you cannot even start capping until 1.5s later after your GCD is down. Even if you cap immediately after the GCD is up, the guy still have 1.5s left to stop you.

 

However sleep dart is the opposite. You use easily verify the effect does not take place until the projectile reaches the opponent, and like the flash bang grenade it is a very slow projectile, so slow that it can actually take a whole GCD to reach the opponent. Further, during this time you can be moving closer to the objective and gaining some extra time.

 

But if you're far enough away from the node (sleep dart is only 10m), then just the physical travel time to the node will stop the Op from succeeding assuming the defender has a 30m instant move.

[Motav]

Using sleep dart/mind trap incurs one GCD, which means you can't even unstealth until the GCD is over so you certainly cannot start capping. In the case of mind trap, the effect occurs instantly, so whoever you mez has 8 seconds left to be mezzed while you cannot even start capping until 1.5s later after your GCD is down. Even if you cap immediately after the GCD is up, the guy still have 1.5s left to stop you.

 

However sleep dart is the opposite. You use easily verify the effect does not take place until the projectile reaches the opponent, and like the flash bang grenade it is a very slow projectile, so slow that it can actually take a whole GCD to reach the opponent. Further, during this time you can be moving closer to the objective and gaining some extra time.

 

But if you're far enough away from the node (sleep dart is only 10m), then just the physical travel time to the node will stop the Op from succeeding assuming the defender has a 30m instant move.

 

Or if youre geared enough you could down him fast and just take it easy.

[LancelotOC]

What I pulled off once on a rated premade was run at a solo guy on a voidstar node door.. stun.. pass through him.. turn and face his back with door node in view and in range off the side.. immediatly started casting my 8 second mezz. He CC breaks ...it lands and now he is facing away from me still so i start capping. I get the cap as cc runs out and turns to attack me.

 

I had imagined pulling this off for a long. Yes I was a bit lucky.. but it was glorious!

 

I can imagine his voice chanel and his buddies... HOW DID THE HEALER CAP YOU!!? lol

[Never_Hesitate]

I think the least geared players make the best defenders, they aren't exactly useful for much else. As long as they call incoming ASAP and people listen then you shouldn't lose the node.

 

And they get 3 shoted.

They can't even call out an inc before they're dead.

[Darth_Philar]

And they get 3 shoted.

They can't even call out an inc before they're dead.

 

They should have called inc well before they were attacked, unless it was a stealth class attacking.

 

I am usually on defense, not because I like it, but because it is necessary and because everyone else runs off.

As a healer, I'm much more valuable where the action is located, not standing around watching the scoreboard, but PUGs don't understand things like that and they constantly ignore my requests to swap out.

[Never_Hesitate]

They should have called inc well before they were attacked, unless it was a stealth class attacking.

 

I am usually on defense, not because I like it, but because it is necessary and because everyone else runs off.

As a healer, I'm much more valuable where the action is located, not standing around watching the scoreboard, but PUGs don't understand things like that and they constantly ignore my requests to swap out.

 

I hate it when they ask:

"Why are there 2 defenders at snow?"

(I usually def with one of my friends)

And we have to answer:

"Because they have 3 Stealthers, we are 2 Sorc heals without def cd's and nobody of you is willing to come stand out here."

[Motav]

They should have called inc well before they were attacked, unless it was a stealth class attacking.

 

I am usually on defense, not because I like it, but because it is necessary and because everyone else runs off.

As a healer, I'm much more valuable where the action is located, not standing around watching the scoreboard, but PUGs don't understand things like that and they constantly ignore my requests to swap out.

 

Stealth classes (like me <3) are the reason why a lone defender CANT call out inc. And unlike the person I killed, I can mind trap and call out, get reinforcements, and turn the whole game around because no one else could be bothered to sit with the poor guy.

[Darth_Philar]

Stealth classes (like me <3) are the reason why a lone defender CANT call out inc. And unlike the person I killed, I can mind trap and call out, get reinforcements, and turn the whole game around because no one else could be bothered to sit with the poor guy.

 

Exactly. The only excuse a lone defender has for not calling ALL incomings well before they arrive at the node is if a group of stealthers sneaks up on him. Of course, there is still the issue that there is never an excuse for having only one defender.

 

As a sorc healer I can solo cap a node against any player if he never calls for assistance (which most of them don't when they see such an easy kill coming towards them).

[Astarica]

Exactly. The only excuse a lone defender has for not calling ALL incomings well before they arrive at the node is if a group of stealthers sneaks up on him. Of course, there is still the issue that there is never an excuse for having only one defender.

 

As a sorc healer I can solo cap a node against any player if he never calls for assistance (which most of them don't when they see such an easy kill coming towards them).

 

Why do people like to talk about fighting against really bad players as if it's the norm? Sure if you're standing exactly next to the node and I let you cast Whirlwind twice (I interrupt the first one) without realizing what you're trying to do and my CC break is down you can do it, but no you're not like the Operative who can throw a flash bang grenade and finish capping before it wears off half of the time because the grenade projectile is inexplicably slow. A merc will have far better chances of doing this with Concussion Missile because the missile is a projectile while Whirlwind has no travel time.

[Darth_Philar]

Why do people like to talk about fighting against really bad players as if it's the norm? Sure if you're standing exactly next to the node and I let you cast Whirlwind twice (I interrupt the first one) without realizing what you're trying to do and my CC break is down you can do it, but no you're not like the Operative who can throw a flash bang grenade and finish capping before it wears off half of the time because the grenade projectile is inexplicably slow. A merc will have far better chances of doing this with Concussion Missile because the missile is a projectile while Whirlwind has no travel time.

 

Like I said and you just admitted, I can cap any node guarded by a lone defender. When facing skilled players this may take two attempts by me (in order to put their CC break on CD) but it works 100% of the time making solo guarding a bad idea.

 

EDIT: I should note that this applies to Alderaan only as the turret itself blocks LOS giving me the time necessary to duck behind it preventing you from interrupting my cast.

Edited July 11, 2012 by Darth_Philar

[Astarica]

Like I said and you just admitted, I can cap any node guarded by a lone defender. When facing skilled players this may take two attempts by me (in order to put their CC break on CD) but it works 100% of the time making solo guarding a bad idea.

 

Um no they CC break out of your Whirlwind and you got to wait another minute before you can do it and the fight's going to end one way or another before your Whirlwind refreshes. The first Whirlwind gets interrupted by a standard interrupt. If they used interrupt on a heal instead, just take the Whirlwind and CC break out of that instead.

 

Everything you said can be done easier with Concussion Missiles because you get more time to cap while the missile is in flight but you sure don't see Mercs talking about how they can solo cap against anyone, even though they're better than you in every way when you talk about this particular party trick.

 

If you came after me solo as a Sage healer I'll just laugh at you when defending solo, but I'm going to call for help anyway because I'll assume you've a stealther friend nearby.

[Darth_Philar]

Um no they CC break out of your Whirlwind and you got to wait another minute before you can do it and the fight's going to end one way or another before your Whirlwind refreshes. The first Whirlwind gets interrupted by a standard interrupt. If they used interrupt on a heal instead, just take the Whirlwind and CC break out of that instead.

 

Everything you said can be done easier with Concussion Missiles because you get more time to cap while the missile is in flight but you sure don't see Mercs talking about how they can solo cap against anyone, even though they're better than you in every way when you talk about this particular party trick.

 

If you came after me solo as a Sage healer I'll just laugh at you when defending solo, but I'm going to call for help anyway because I'll assume you've a stealther friend nearby.

 

If they save the CC Break for the Whirlwind (which the goods ones do) then I just let them kill me and go for round two in which I have my whirlwind back and their CC Break is on CD. Of course it is easier with the concussion missile, but that doesn't make it less possible for me to do it as well, just less probable.

[Astarica]

If they save the CC Break for the Whirlwind (which the goods ones do) then I just let them kill me and go for round two in which I have my whirlwind back and their CC Break is on CD. Of course it is easier with the concussion missile, but that doesn't make it less possible for me to do it as well, just less probable.

 

Well in that case you're talking about a node that never got help for a very long time and it'd probably be easier to just do a standard 1 visible + 1 stealth assault because help isn't coming anyway. Defending with one person is a bad idea, sure, but there is only one class (Op) that can reliably pull off a cap without killing the defender first.

[Darth_Philar]

Well in that case you're talking about a node that never got help for a very long time and it'd probably be easier to just do a standard 1 visible + 1 stealth assault because help isn't coming anyway. Defending with one person is a bad idea, sure, but there is only one class (Op) that can reliably pull off a cap without killing the defender first.

 

If it is a good defender, you are correct that the method relies upon them not getting assistance. The lack of assistance is usually a result of me being a sorc and therefore a "non-threat"

[Astarica]

If it is a good defender, you are correct that the method relies upon them not getting assistance. The lack of assistance is usually a result of me being a sorc and therefore a "non-threat"

 

I can see this in chat: "Incoming a Sorc snow." "He's no threat. Stay on the leader." "Roger"

 

Even though I do think Sorc as minimal threat, I always call out for help if solo defending since I assume you'd never come close without a stealther friend nearby. Of course, sometimes I still get no help anyway, but that part is out of my control.