The Philosphical Gear Divide

[gaangdar]

I can definetely see why there is a gear grind and I understand people who agree with it. I mean even in sandbox MMOs your still trying to obtain the most powerful items it's part of the whole MMO thing. Gear grinds in PVP are simply I tried and tested path to keeping people playing ,even in FPS games devs have started making people grind for unlocks.

 

The big beef I have with level 50 gear grinds is that it takes away all the other aspects of an mmo like crafting. I mean I am a 400 cybertech but the stuff I craft is crap in pvp because it doesn't have expertise so I feel limited to grinding.

 

I would like to suggests three things: 1) you could use the commedations earned in 10-49 bracket warzones to purchase your level 50 gear ahead of time. 2) Starting at level 30 you can start getting gear that has expertise so once you hit 50 you could have expertise that was alittle better than recruit gear. 3) Get some PVP mods in game that can be crafted so people could get competitive faster. These mods could give alittle less than stuff that has to be grinded for (to keep it fair) or is valour rank restricted. (if these mods are already ingame, I apologize I haven't found them.) These things sould bring the gap closer.

 

Anyways interesting thread.

Edited July 7, 2012 by gaangdar

[Varicite]

I think that some gear gap is fine.

 

I do think that the gap needs to be small enough that everyone can still feel competitive against one another, though.

 

Currently, fresh 50s don't feel that way, and that is a problem. In BM gear, you feel pretty decent until you come across the min-maxed War Hero guy w/ full augments. I imagine that in full WH, you feel like you can hold your own against most classes. I'm not currently at that level, though, so that is simply speculation.

[Daiyukie]

I think that some gear gap is fine.

 

I do think that the gap needs to be small enough that everyone can still feel competitive against one another, though.

 

Currently, fresh 50s don't feel that way, and that is a problem. In BM gear, you feel pretty decent until you come across the min-maxed War Hero guy w/ full augments. I imagine that in full WH, you feel like you can hold your own against most classes. I'm not currently at that level, though, so that is simply speculation.

 

Not on Scoundrel DPS, you can't. 1v1 in a vacuum, fighting a tank that just won't take any damage, I eventually run out of resources because of costly self-heal and not being able to go all-out for very long. If it's a Jugg DPS spec or something else with high armor, forget it. 1v1 versus a healer, I can't do enough damage to finish them. I can usually get them to 20% or lower, but CONSISTENTLY burning down a healer doesn't happen, which would be absolutely fine if it was true of every class. In a team environment, which is every Warzone, the situational damage is even more useless.

 

Gear is one thing, but the MMO balance issues are another. I have 1100 expertise, ~1900 cunning with stim, 78% Surge, 35% crit and just under 600 Power afaik. I should, going by this gear disparity thread, be tearing people apart. Doesn't happen if they're not Recruit, the gear gap is not that bad... Balance issues are way more important.

[Gadian]

I think that some gear gap is fine.

 

I do think that the gap needs to be small enough that everyone can still feel competitive against one another, though.

 

Currently, fresh 50s don't feel that way, and that is a problem. In BM gear, you feel pretty decent until you come across the min-maxed War Hero guy w/ full augments. I imagine that in full WH, you feel like you can hold your own against most classes. I'm not currently at that level, though, so that is simply speculation.

 

While I would prefer no gear gap (or at least a very minimal grind), I would be happier if the gap was a little smaller. While obviously not 100% correlated, I can usually tell how the game will go based on how many people on my team have less than 14k hp. And the silly thing is some of these guys could be awesome players, its just hard to tell when you can sneeze on them and they die.

[Daiyukie]

While I would prefer no gear gap (or at least a very minimal grind), I would be happier if the gap was a little smaller. While obviously not 100% correlated, I can usually tell how the game will go based on how many people on my team have less than 14k hp. And the silly thing is some of these guys could be awesome players, its just hard to tell when you can sneeze on them and they die.

 

Related to this, some guy who refused to get Recruit Gear (you know the guy, you've all met one) and had a level 43 green belt, some crappy level 45 implants and ear and a BM chest or something was a fine player. He passed well, knocked people off catwalks and distracted the other team as best he could while trying to also receive passes and pass off intelligent as fast as he could, because he knew he wasn't going to tank.

 

His gear was absolute ****, yet he was an alright contribution to the team. This highlights the fact that Warzone design comes into play as well; if it's team objective-oriented, it shouldn't be about how fast/well you can kill. That should be a marginal factor.

[Akatoshia]

Again, I don't want this to be another debate between Camps 1&2, which is what many gear threads devolve to, I am just trying to help you guys see where we are coming from.

 

You might want to consider revising the OP to reflect this statement...

[Akatoshia]

I love team sports. Love team competition. Love strategy and tactics.

No sport, professional or non-professional, allows one team to field better / different equipment than the other team. It is unsportsmanlike and the rules simply do not allow it. Period, end of story.

 

The real analogy here should not compare the gear of a professional sports player, but rather the skills and attributes he/she has trained over a significant period of time.

 

The biggest fallacy lies in that gear in an MMO doesn't just affect the protection of your character, but your attributes as well.

 

Take a football team.. you have the QB, who trains for finesse and throwing accuracy. You have guards and tackles, who train for bulk and pure strength and agility. You have receivers, who focus on speed and coordination. Are some QBs better than others? Of course! Same goes for all of the other positions. These skills are a result of time invested in training and playing the game to get better... sounds a lot like our game here....

 

We shouldn't even be making the comparison to competitive sports, considering that they feature players whom camp #2 believes should all be levelled for the sake of fairness.

 

I do understand both points of the argument. I simply believe that gear adds an important dynamic in terms of player progression.

[vimm]

Not everyone prefers the "pure twitch and aiming" of the FPS world. The tab targeting, cool downs, etc. of the MMO can be appealing and fun without the added zergest of the geared WZ. There are still roles, etc. int he lowbie bracket.

 

It's not one or the other.

 

Nope, if you want equal gear, then you're not allowed to play an MMO, apparently. You have to play a first person shooter or a fighting game. You know, because gear is what makes it an mmo.

[Daiyukie]

Nope, if you want equal gear, then you're not allowed to play an MMO, apparently. You have to play a first person shooter or a fighting game. You know, because gear is what makes it an mmo.

 

I want to have your babies vimm. And I know you must get that a lot, but hear me out: You never post anything constructive, therefore I know that by giving birth to a litter of trolls-in-the-making, I can simply point to daddy and say "Don't do that", thereby improving the next generation. But they'd probably still retain your humor, which is always good.

Edited July 7, 2012 by Daiyukie

[Gadian]

The biggest fallacy lies in that gear in an MMO doesn't just affect the protection of your character, but your attributes as well.

 

That is the point. Gear in MMO's affects your attributes. A quarterback's helmet/gloves does not. That is what makes the juxtaposition so compelling. Can you imagine if Peyton Manning's cleats had little rocket boosters to increase his scrambling? This comparison reveals the absurdity of giving stat/attribute bonuses to players in a competitive environment solely based on time logged.

 

Take a football team.. you have the QB, who trains for finesse and throwing accuracy. You have guards and tackles, who train for bulk and pure strength and agility. You have receivers, who focus on speed and coordination. Are some QBs better than others? Of course! Same goes for all of the other positions. These skills are a result of time invested in training and playing the game to get better... sounds a lot like our game here....

 

This is a paragraph in support of an analogy between sports equipment and competitive PVP gear rewards. If you play more, practice more, play with your guildmates/teammates more, then yes, you get better, more skilled even. To use your words, your increased skill is "the result of time invested in training and playing the game to get better." That is the point. The benefit of more play time/practice is more skill. Not a lighter helmet or a metal bat. To take your analogy further, you have Sorcs who train for healing/LOS, you have Guardians who train taunting and ball carrying, etc. Their ability to master their class is their reward for play time. And I contend that in a perfect game it would be their only reward.

 

We shouldn't even be making the comparison to competitive sports, considering that they feature players whom camp #2 believes should all be levelled for the sake of fairness.

 

You miss the entire point of Camp # 2. In fact, you state the exact opposite. We would hope that players gain more skill with more play time. That skill would be the reward. The only reward. Just like in sports, as you so aptly demonstrated.

 

I do understand both points of the argument. I simply believe that gear adds an important dynamic in terms of player progression.

 

Fair enough.

[KBSIP]

Nope, if you want equal gear, then you're not allowed to play an MMO, apparently. You have to play a first person shooter or a fighting game. You know, because gear is what makes it an mmo.

 

FPS games are adopting gear sets, reference the grind level system in call of duty multiplayer, the cosmetic grind in halo, and the new pay-to-access kits in battlefield. its not an MMO thing anymore, because other genres realized it prolonged the duration of a title.

 

personally, I don't have much of an opinion either way, I'd be fine if my gear was solely cosmetic from PVP as long as I could readily use it for my PVE set modeling.

 

unfortunately for the opposition to gear grinds, they're here to stay. Even if bioware did try to remove it from the game they would never be able to convince lucas arts or, God forbid, EA that it would promote increased revenue from the game, unless they went to a pay-to-win scenario or something.

[Synxos]

I assumed that, only because you didn't expound. But now that you have, you would fall into subset A: "They actually derive fulfillment from the grind." In other words, you don't grind for gear so you can PVP on equal footing, you grind for gear, because you like getting gear. The grind for gear becomes your motivation. PVPing is what you do so you can get that gear.

 

Again, you may have missed if you just skimmed my original post. It was a little long.

no, what i said didn't require expounding.

"When you finally get that full set of WH gear it's a very rewarding experience. "

 

and you still don't get it.....it's not that I enjoy the grind. It's all about the gear.

I love to pvp. and I love to get gear upgrades. they aren't mutually exclusive like you keep implying heavily.

Edited July 7, 2012 by Synxos

[Rogoo]

True PVP, is about the competition. Not the grind. It is about skill and teamwork. Not augments and purples. It is about fun. Not chasing a carrot on a stick.

 

I completely agree.

 

The sad thing is, that there aren't many true PvPers in most MMOs. Just bad players that need to cover their lack of skill with the gear grind.

[matslarson]

The sad thing is, that there aren't many true PvPers in most MMOs. Just bad players that need to cover their lack of skill with the gear grind.

 

Really? Because what I see are a lot of players, some good, some bad, who play the game BioWare made.

 

That and a lot of bad players who blame their poor performance on their opponent's gear, but keep paying while whining about the product they're buying.

 

This entire debate is pointless, and the question posed by the OP is beyond ridiculous. He asked which camp do the devs fall into, which is a question so absurdly and pointlessly ignorant I'm not at all surprised to see it on the PvP forums. The devs made the game. The devs included a gear grind. So which camp do you think they fall into, sparky? The fact of the matter is that this is an MMORPG, and like many MMORPGs that came before it, it includes a gear progression. You can wax nostalgic all you want about some other game you played that didn't have tiered gear. You can argue the philosophical theories, pros/cons, possible effects and whosie-whatsits of some system or another until the cows come home.

 

Or you can enjoy the game for what it is.

 

Or you can unsub and never have to deal with teams of stunlocking WH geared operatives ever again.

[ThorgrimLutgen]

Camp #2: Those who think that the gear grind ruins the game, that it essentially forces people to spend time doing something they don't enjoy, just so they achieve competitive equality. It is not a compelling reason to PVP. The fun of PVP is the ultimate reason to PVP, and the gear grind is a necessary evil in order to have fun. A means to an end, if you will.

 

If someone does not enjoy PVP, why on earth would they be "grinding" for PVP gear? I am sorry, but this makes zero sense.

 

On the flipside of the coin, people that do enjoy PVP, generally are equipped with 4 BM pieces the moment they hit 50, thus reducing this percieved grind anyway.

 

Seems to me, what a lot of the moaners want is a FPS game, slotted into an MMO. Well i am sorry, this is not that game, but there are plenty of FPSs out there, that probably float your boat more than this will.

Edited July 7, 2012 by ThorgrimLutgen

[XyriusSES]

I want to have your babies vimm. And I know you must get that a lot, but hear me out: You never post anything constructive, therefore I know that by giving birth to a litter of trolls-in-the-making, I can simply point to daddy and say "Don't do that", thereby improving the next generation. But they'd probably still retain your humor, which is always good.

 

Get a room!

[fungihoujo]

Interesting perspective- pretty accurate too. Basically- BW has catered to crowd 1 because they don't think they can please crowd 2... in other words- they know they can make a long grind, they don't think they can make a fun pvp game.

 

All things considered- BW may well be right, they probably couldn't keep players off of fun gameplay considering what they've done to make it not fun.

[ThorgrimLutgen]

I can definetely see why there is a gear grind and I understand people who agree with it. I mean even in sandbox MMOs your still trying to obtain the most powerful items it's part of the whole MMO thing. Gear grinds in PVP are simply I tried and tested path to keeping people playing ,even in FPS games devs have started making people grind for unlocks.

 

The big beef I have with level 50 gear grinds is that it takes away all the other aspects of an mmo like crafting. I mean I am a 400 cybertech but the stuff I craft is crap in pvp because it doesn't have expertise so I feel limited to grinding.

 

I would like to suggests three things: 1) you could use the commedations earned in 10-49 bracket warzones to purchase your level 50 gear ahead of time. 2) Starting at level 30 you can start getting gear that has expertise so once you hit 50 you could have expertise that was alittle better than recruit gear. 3) Get some PVP mods in game that can be crafted so people could get competitive faster. These mods could give alittle less than stuff that has to be grinded for (to keep it fair) or is valour rank restricted. (if these mods are already ingame, I apologize I haven't found them.) These things sould bring the gap closer.

 

Anyways interesting thread.

 

1. You can save comms and have 3500 RWZ comms, and 2000 nomal comms at L50, thus giving you 4 BM pieces.

 

2. You can collect recruit gear from boxes, and have a full set for free, nevermind the new L50 cash handout, you can find the pieces in boxes dotted around Outlaws Den. Don't want to go there? Fine, spend some of the 320k they give you at L50 to fill in the gaps around your BM pieces. You will have 900 expertise and be good to go.

 

3. I agree that crafting is somewhat broken as regards PVP. That said, there are things you can make for yourself as a Cybertech that make your PVP life better, freeze/sludge grenades etc are great in Huttball for example.

[paul_preib]

1. You can save comms and have 3500 RWZ comms, and 2000 nomal comms at L50, thus giving you 4 BM pieces.

 

2. You can collect recruit gear from boxes, and have a full set for free, nevermind the new L50 cash handout, you can find the pieces in boxes dotted around Outlaws Den. Don't want to go there? Fine, spend some of the 320k they give you at L50 to fill in the gaps around your BM pieces. You will have 900 expertise and be good to go.

 

3. I agree that crafting is somewhat broken as regards PVP. That said, there are things you can make for yourself as a Cybertech that make your PVP life better, freeze/sludge grenades etc are great in Huttball for example.

 

Only thing I disagree with, I personally feel its a lot smoother to use those ranked comms to convert a piece straight away into a war hero piece rather then bm. If one of the four dual wield classes the most logical is moving the bm more into an offhand shell and getting a WH mainland. If not a dual wielded many other options, including being.able to have a nearly all the WH implant/earpiece set right off the bat, saving comms by fully.bypassing the Bm step there

[GreatGarth]

"Did you not know what you were getting into?"

Obviously I didnt.

I thought this was like Dota, but with more abilites, more options, more players, and more strategy; with a single player element.

Gear grinders or people with tons of time should be on a separate server, at least make matchmaking fair.

Edited July 7, 2012 by GreatGarth

[PloGreen]

I dont know whether to laugh or cry at above. Gear progression is what this mmo is all about, if you somehow want to seperate people that gear up to people that dont. That doesnt even make sense. Edited July 7, 2012 by PloGreen

[GreatGarth]

I would like an arcade mode tbh.

I like pvp but I dont want to go on some wild goose chase for rare loot for days on end. Honestly, how many hours does it take to gear up to match someone in WZs.

Edited July 7, 2012 by GreatGarth

[Zunayson]

Why is there no camp for people who genuinely enjoy RPGs and customizing a character, tweaking its stats and specializations, basically "tooling around" w/ a character that they have invested time in so that it has become a somewhat meaningful avatar, instead of a stock, static pick-up-and-play character that you can find in any non-RPG?

 

Why can people from this particular camp not also enjoy fighting other players who have painstakingly tweaked and tooled their own characters to perform at the highest level?

 

Sometimes it's simply about applying class and mechanical knowledge to a dynamic environment.

 

I personally enjoy that MMO PvP takes into account your skill both on and off the field to achieve success. Players who are prepared AND skilled are the most rewarded.

 

Tweaking as in balancing your own stats. But, with different tiers of gear, it's not balanced. It's okay to have x willpower and Y Endurance, or to choose from X + a willpower and Y - b endurance (That is, sacrificing endurance for willpower). What gear TIERS do is make one set of gear statistically better in (almost if not ) all ways. For example, there is no reason to have X willpower and Y endurance when you can have X + a willpower and Y endurance.

 

The imbalance is not made by gear, but by tiers of gear, and the fact that not everyone starts off with it all.

Edited July 7, 2012 by Zunayson

[DroidDreamer]

Interesting perspective- pretty accurate too. Basically- BW has catered to crowd 1 because they don't think they can please crowd 2... in other words- they know they can make a long grind, they don't think they can make a fun pvp game.

 

All things considered- BW may well be right, they probably couldn't keep players off of fun gameplay considering what they've done to make it not fun.

 

10-49 is tons of fun. The dynamic changes dramatically and not for the better in the 50 bracket.

[Synxos]

10-49 is tons of fun. The dynamic changes dramatically and not for the better in the 50 bracket.

 

So when you have all your skills and are playing against people who don't have all their skills it's fine, but when tables are turned its terrible?

 

It's pretty obvious camp 2 people are just jealous that other people have better gear, and if they had better gear they wouldn't be saying anything.