Healing is fine, they said. Just gear up, they said.

[BurnsTwoThree]

Meh, I've seen good healers from each of the three classes, and I myself love pvping on my sorc healer.

 

Don't give up on pvp healing. It's completely viable and incredibly fun as long as you take a bit of time to adjust your playstyle.

 

-Hedley Melange <Physics>, Dreshdae-->The Shadowlands-

 

For regular WZs? Yeah it's completely viable being maxed gear against people gearing up and haven't played their class at 50 for more than a few days.

Edited July 9, 2012 by BurnsTwoThree

[spaace]

People ignore the fact and just continue on down the attempt at flame road......

 

In regular warzones I walk over everything... I can kite 3-4 melee all day long, (until I get a few good players on me)

In ranked, I'm first target.

 

Healing is fine.... Survivablity for sorcs/sages is where its in the *******s..

 

 

in case anybody forgot,

Ops/Mercs = 2s "main" heal with surge talent modifiers.

Sorc = 2.5s (or 3s channel/9s cd) "main" heal.

Edited July 9, 2012 by spaace

[SteffizleESQ]

For regular WZs? Yeah it's completely viable being maxed gear against people gearing up and haven't played their class at 50 for more than a few days.

 

L2P and let this thread die.

 

Also, nerf operatives.

[BurnsTwoThree]

People ignore the fact and just continue on down the attempt at flame road......

in case anybody forgot,

Ops/Mercs = 2s "main" heal with surge talent modifiers.

Sorc = 2.5s (or 3s channel/9s cd) "main" heal.

 

Ops have faster heals that can heal for more than our small fast heal assuming they have tactical advantage.

 

On top of probes and a "OH SH*T" button. We have that one big heal and have to hope every tick of our Innervate goes off with a crit or else it'll heal for the same as a Dark Heal crit.

[Sock_Bramson]

Nope, every healing class can and does do well in ranked. Hell, our guild alone has 3 good sorcs, 2 good op healers (one of whom mainly rocks concealment but also heals like a champ), and a good merc healer. Plus, there's plenty of other solid healers on our server. There are also some mediocre healers, just like there are mediocre dps and tanks. (there are also terrible players, but we try not to talk about them)

 

Keep at it fellas; you can still pump out dems tasty green numbers if you stay on top of your game.

 

-Hedley Melange <Physics>, Dreshdae-->The Shadowlands-

[BurnsTwoThree]

L2P and let this thread die.

 

Also, nerf operatives.

 

Not sure you can say L2P to someone who's better than you. Well you can but it doesn't hold much weight.

Edited July 9, 2012 by BurnsTwoThree

[BurnsTwoThree]

Nope, every healing class can and does do well in ranked. Hell, our guild alone has 3 good sorcs, 2 good op healers

 

See but there's good and then there's good. I'd rather let my skill take me farther than just simply being average and geared like the guys in your guild.

[Sock_Bramson]

Bahaha, whatever you say, man. If you aren't on the Shadowlands, you have no way of knowing whether or not our guild is good. If you are on the Shadowlands, you've probably been beaten by us. (not me, since I just got back in town and gotta fix my damn internets before I can start getting some ranked matches in, but the rest of the gang has an overwhelmingly positive win ratio) Keep those ad hominem attacks coming, though, they totally help your argument.

 

-Hedley Melange <Physics>, Dreshdae-->The Shadowlands-

[BurnsTwoThree]

Bahaha, whatever you say, man. If you aren't on the Shadowlands, you have no way of knowing whether or not our guild is good. If you are on the Shadowlands, you've probably been beaten by us. (not me, since I just got back in town and gotta fix my damn internets before I can start getting some ranked matches in, but the rest of the gang has an overwhelmingly positive win ratio) Keep those ad hominem attacks coming, though, they totally help your argument.

 

-Hedley Melange <Physics>, Dreshdae-->The Shadowlands-

 

Because it is an impossibility with the lack of class mechanics post 1.2 for Sorcerer/Sages to do much of anything.

 

I don't consider how productive I am against 1200 rated teams to be any sign of how our class is. When I play against the top 2 teams on our server and there's nothing but instant death while any other healer (that's not a Sorcerer) can manage to live. Sorcerers can and will not be anything special and a full healer in high brackets. You have to run 2 OPs and play Hybrid to be any sort of useful.

Edited July 9, 2012 by BurnsTwoThree

[LancelotOC]

Nope, every healing class can and does do well in ranked. Hell, our guild alone has 3 good sorcs, 2 good op healers (one of whom mainly rocks concealment but also heals like a champ), and a good merc healer. Plus, there's plenty of other solid healers on our server. There are also some mediocre healers, just like there are mediocre dps and tanks. (there are also terrible players, but we try not to talk about them)

 

Keep at it fellas; you can still pump out dems tasty green numbers if you stay on top of your game.

 

-Hedley Melange <Physics>, Dreshdae-->The Shadowlands-

 

Come on man.. are you a hybrid healer? This whole thread is about full heal specced healers. Thirty one in the heal line tree. What does the experiance of playing a hybrid with all the extra CC from the lighting line have anything to do with full heal specced sorc healers.

 

Or are you seriously saying that a full heal specced sorc is viable in rated? Please then put some action behind your words. Respec your hybrid to full heals and play in rated for 20 matches or any amount that you feel will let you talk with authority on the subject then come back here and tell us all if you are a weight on your team or a help.

 

If your argument is a hybrid is viable.. tell me how this hybrid is better than an Operative healer since hybrids never put out the numbers Operatives do though play practically the same style. Still if that is your argument start a new thread about it and spare the full heal specced sorcs this nonsence.

 

I'm calling it nonsence because I don't know what else to call it. Why say this stuff, when I'm sure even you since you respecced to a hybrid, think something is wrong with the full heal spec. We have enough crying from the people who don't want to deal with the hassle of assigning a mouse key to interupt and actually pressing it, you'd think the people who played full heal spec and know it's limitations would not dog pile on the full heal spec complaint threads.

Edited July 9, 2012 by LancelotOC

[lexiekaboom]

Come on man.. are you a hybrid healer? This whole thread is about full heal specced healers. Thirty one in the heal line tree. What does the experiance of playing a hybrid with all the extra CC from the lighting line have anything to do with full heal specced sorc healers.

 

Or are you seriously saying that a full heal specced sorc is viable in rated? Please then put some action behind your words. Respec your hybrid to full heals and play in rated for 20 matches or any amount that you feel will let you talk with authority on the subject then come back here and tell us all if you are a weight on your team or a help.

 

If your argument is a hybrid is viable.. tell me how this hybrid is better than an Operative healer since hybrids never put out the numbers Operatives do though play practically the same style. Still if that is your argument start a new thread about it and spare the full heal specced sorcs this nonsence.

 

I'm calling it nonsence because I don't know what else to call it. Why say this stuff, when I'm sure even you since you respecced to a hybrid, think something is wrong with the full heal spec. We have enough crying from the people who don't want to deal with the hassle of assigning a mouse key to interupt and actually pressing it, you'd think the people who played full heal spec and know it's limitations would not dog pile on the full heal spec complaint threads.

 

I play a full heal speced sorc in rated. 1290 rating. Heal about 400k a match and die 3 or 4 times unless the match is a facerole, then I die more and heal less. 13 wins, 6 loses. Pick up teams exclusively, although they are well built (2 tanks, 2 healers, 4 dps and none of the stupid worthless classes that shouldn't even be allowed to que for ranked).

 

I would rate the power of this toon somewhere between "OMG OP" and "just flat out ruining PVP for everyone else by being so broken."

 

Have you honestly considered the fact that maybe, just maybe, there is some personal improvement on your part that might change your opinion? I mean everyone who FIGHTS healers thinks they are crazy OP. Most people who PLAY healers are honestly enough to admit they are crazy OP. You insist they are not only far from OP, but horrible and worthless. MAYBE the problem is you? Just saying!

 

Gear, for the record, is unaugmented battle master with a few pieces of unagumented war hero. I can't even imagine how retarded OP I will be in full augmented WH.

Edited July 9, 2012 by lexiekaboom

[RogueNights]

I think some people just are not meant to heal in pvp, i am definitely one of them... Not the most scientific approach to determining balance, however i go w/ this reasoning: Healers are still the #1 priority/ highest threat target in pvp. Assuming actually as effective as the average dps'r perceives them to be, they shouldn't need buffs.

[islander]

Well the thing about sorcs/sages, at least. I've been told they have a pretty high skill cap as far as healing goes (due to lack of defenses, marginal healing mobility, light armor, etc)

 

So it wouldn't surprise me to hear a handful of people say sorc/sage healing is very good, while many others say its brutal.

Edited July 9, 2012 by islander

[Sock_Bramson]

Not sure where somone said this was a thread about full 31 healing specs only; the OP sure didn't in his first post. If that is where the argument has led, however, OK. There are actually 31 corruption sorcs in rateds who do very well because they and their team know how to gaurd/taunt/peel/cc/group up for AoE heals. I personally prefer the playstyle of the corruption/lightning spec and consider it to be a dedicated pvp healing spec. I didn't try to increase my dmg, I just took talents that help me kite/interrupt/manage my force more so I can keep cranking out heals.

 

I definitely agree that sorcs and especially mercs could use a few minor quality of life changes, but I really don't feel like anything drastic needs to be done. If you're having problems, do a bit more research, experiment with new playstyles, etc; there's always room for improvement, after all.

 

-Hedley Melange <Physics>, Dreshdae-->The Shadowlands-

[Annex]

Well the thing about sorcs/sages, at least. I've been told they have a pretty high skill cap as far as healing goes (due to lack of defenses, marginal healing mobility, light armor, etc)

 

So it wouldn't surprise me to hear a handful of people say sorc/sage healing is very good, while many others say its brutal.

 

Not sure how many times Im going to have to post this...

 

I have a BM/WH Jugg and a WH Sorc. My background is in healing (with some rdps), 10 years across multiple PvP games. Ive won a lot of tournaments in these games and no, have not played WoW as its not my type of game. Generally I am a crappy mdps player and one of the top healers in every game Ive played, I wouldnt describe myself as the best player in the world (Im not that type of guy), but all the facts point to a top 5% healer in multiple games. Thats some context for you.

 

Now. In THIS game. Im suddenly awesome at mdps and finding playing my healer an exercise in frustration. I *can* perform at healing but only against poor players who ignore me. Against good teams I am either a free kill or I run in circles for the whole game doing nothing of much significance except making some mdps wear out his s key.

 

This flies against ALL experience. How can I be really bad at the healer class (at which I generally excel) but awesome at the mdps (which I generally suck at). I think there are 2 possible conclusions (of which one is FAR more likely):

 

1/ My skillset has randomly changed for this game only, defying all previous experience

2/ The healer class (for sorc/sage) is not on a level playing field with the mdps

 

People who are good, who have played both dps and healer KNOW that sorc/sage healers are pretty messed up right now. The people who keep posting L2P are for the most part DPSers who want an unfair advanatge / dont have any concept of how fked up it is or people who only play healer who think its fine feeding on scraps.

 

I play both. I know how easy it is to kill a sorc/sage on my (worse geared) jugg. Please, do not play the L2P card here. You are wrong.

 

YET AGAIN (noone has managed to even come close to answering this yet):

 

• If we are a turret class, why do have no def cds, why are we in light armor
  
• If we are a kite class, why do all out heals have casts/channels
  

Answer the above points and we can have a proper discussion (I guarantee noone will, its much easier to disengage your brain and type "L2P").

Edited July 9, 2012 by Annex

[Darth_Philar]

If you are running a 31 point Corruption build you will need a very specific team composition in order to support you, otherwise your team will suffer as a result.

 

If you are running a hybrid/survival Corruption build you will not be in the healer role, but rather be a support/defense player.

[SteffizleESQ]

Not sure you can say L2P to someone who's better than you. Well you can but it doesn't hold much weight.

 

If you were playing on a decent team, they wouldn't allow you to get rolled on that fast. If you're getting as much focus as you make it seem like, then you might as well just stay in the spawn.

[BurnsTwoThree]

If you were playing on a decent team, they wouldn't allow you to get rolled on that fast. If you're getting as much focus as you make it seem like, then you might as well just stay in the spawn.

 

Usually it's teams rolling with 2-3 Marauders/PTs including the other teams tanks. Yeah my team is very good as well.

 

Having two Marauders hitting for 5k+ Smashes taking me down 60% of my health pool without really having to do anything is ridiculous.

 

Support doesn't matter especially if they are white barred which they always will have to be eventually. Sorcerers and Sages do not simply get away to LoS anymore. Mostly because we get rooted by other classes that are also on us, but also the fact is that when we do get LoS'd from any damage by the time we even get one cast off at best it might heal us for 25% of our health and that's assuming it crits.

 

Smart teams can easily keep the other healers on your team shut down unless you're running 2 OPs and a Hybrid Sorc.

[Tathais]

I'm back... hopefully everybody had a good weekend. It seems we've got 10 more pages of discussion that I'm still catching up on. Some good stuff in there though, and it seems we're getting a lot more people coming in to post their experiences, which do mirror my own. Great to have some support

 

First thing I want to reply to is this:

Another poster that doesnt read the thread.

 

He said multiple times that this was an all healer problem, not just sorc.

 

You shouldn't be so quick to throw out the "didn't read the thread" thing... you're half right. I did start out saying all healers were getting crushed because I actually thought they were. However, somewhere around our initial discussion when you and I were first talking, I discovered that this wasn't the case. You yourself were saying you rarely take 5k hits and your incoming damage was fairly low. In fact, you didn't even believe me when I said I was taking as much damage as I was.

 

I've revised my opinion... enough merc/smug healers are posting that things are fine that apparently it's just sorc/sage who are so startlingly weak and prone to massive amounts of incoming damage.

 

I posted that, fairly clearly... I'm not going to go back and find it though, this is a lot of thread to go through. Suffice it to say, if you think your class is fine that's cool. I'm not here to argue that mercs have a bad gameplay experience when I don't play one. My experiences are with a Sage so that's all I feel qualified to discuss.

 

SUMMARY FOR CLARITY: This thread is about Sorc/Sage.

 

Thanks!

[Tathais]

Nothing to add on the rest, it's pretty much been covered. Just a couple of points...

 

* Still seeing a lot of people saying this is a L2P issue. Getting pulled/stunned and then burned before the stun isn't a L2P issue. There's nothing anybody can do about this, it's impossible. If the expectation is that a healer should never get caught, this is unreasonable. DPS is given tools specifically for the purpose of catching players who attempt to kite them. Being infinitely kited would be unbalanced, and this isn't even true in this game. Players will get caught... they need to be able to survive through this. This is 1v1.

 

* There's still a lot of people complaining that if Sorc/Sage were buffed, they would be unkillable. Nobody (who's being reasonable) is asking for godmode Sorc/Sage. Please understand that, as it is now, we're getting exploded by a single DPS in seconds. There's a screenshot I posted a while back (maybe page 25ish) showing a Marauder who put 10k damage on me in about 2 seconds. That's 2/3's of my health pool and it happened before I could even react. All we're asking is to be buffed a little... just so we're on par with the other healers who apparently aren't experiencing this same level of frustration. An alternative would be to tone down DPS a little bit. Either way, we're not asking for god mode, we're asking for balance. That's the operative word here, balance. Please, lets try to keep that at the forefront of our focus.

 

* Still lots of "you need a pocket tank". There has been a lot of discussion already on this topic so, to summarize, the complaint is that Sorc/Sage need a tank simply to be able to play. We're utterly crushed without one and we're still quite weak with one. In order to be viable, we need a fully coordinated team baby sitting us. Other healers maybe don't need this but Sorc/Sage does. DPS, on the other hand, does not. The bottom line is, no one class should be so completely reliant on someone else to be viable. Team play is meant to enhance the individual to form something greater than the sum of the parts, but each part should still be somewhat viable on its own. If the concern is that, if healer solo viability were increased, guards would make them unstoppable... then perhaps the key here lies in guard and that it should be toned down somewhat. I don't pretend to have the answer to this... our job is to provide feedback and right now that feedback is overwhelmingly that Sorc/Sage gets steamrolled by lesser geared, lesser skilled players.

[LancelotOC]

It's either that or someone at BW thinks there is this slice of the gaming population that are raging masochists. So they designed the sorc/sage healer to apeal to these guys that like to cut themselves with razors and bathe in alcohol or somthing.

[Tathais]

It's either that or someone at BW thinks there is this slice of the gaming population that are raging masochists. So they designed the sorc/sage healer to apeal to these guys that like to cut themselves with razors and bathe in alcohol or somthing.

 

Haha, very aptly put

 

I can't imagine so, though... they've said they want to work on their PvP and make it balanced, I think they just need to start actively working on it. I know these things take time so all we can hope for is that they're paying attention I guess.

[Astarica]

If an Op or a Merc healer is guarded it'll at least make me think about looking for other possible targets before attacking them, while seeing a Sorc guarded (doesn't have to be a healer, DPS is fine) means I get to kill 2 guys instead of 1.

 

The Sorc's lack of mitigation makes guarding them a very risky move for the tank involved and the payoff is not very high since being guarded does not in any way ensure you can get more heals off against interrupts. If there's a 50% chance that Dark Infusion will resist interrupt while guarded, I'll take my chances. Currently I know there's almost no chance a Sorc can cast Dark Infusion successfully under pressure and that gives me a lot less incentive to Guard them knowing they still can't get their big heals off even at a considerable risk to my health.

[Arkerus]

I wish we had a death match type WZ so that 3+ healers cross healing have a WZ where they aren't being helpful, just so that can see how other classes feel in the current ones.

 

As it stands right now three OP healers or 2 OPs 1 Sorc will not die while they cross heal each other, okay they aren't helping their team right? Just keeping each other immortal, that'd be great if it was Death Match but in objectives like Civil War, Novar, Voidstar and to a lesser degree Huttball, unkillable defenders completely break the game. Voidstar is a nightmare because of this.

 

If they are cross healing and keeping each other alive for good it should stop them attacking/CCing to stop caps, this is an extreme solution but you can see how easy it is for them, considering they're ranged and have AOEs to stop any attack being succesful until their team mates respawn. Heck I bet even without their team mates they could probably hold the doors a good 5 minutes before dying, and only if CC is used properly. Yet no other class, not even tanks has this level of survivbility.

 

If it takes 2 DPS to kill 1 healer, it's broken, because 2 healers = 4 DPS and 3 = 6 right? very very simple maths.

Okay next lets look at group set numbers, limited at 8, so if you have any chance to kill an enemy team with 3 healers most of your team needs to be DPS with 1 tank and 1 healer? That is stupid, 1 dps should = 1 healer, the healer should require a tank and his DPS to kill his aggressors for him he shouldn't be able to freely roam about healing himself and throwing out a few heals to his team while a DPS is eatting his face. If guarded/taunted even 3 DPS wont take down one healer, there isn't enough damage.

 

It is beginning to highlight a few issues, you need Maras/PTs now because they are the only ones with burst strong enough to shut healers down. Vegenance/Rage Juggers can go sit in the waiting bin, its immortal or nothing Maras are better burners. Snipers? yeah to many obstacles in WZs a healer can easily LOS you and heal back to full. Merc DPS? your okay but suffer the same issues as Snipers, very easy to LOS, you have the luxury of being able to move though. Melee DPS (not including Juggers) needs to remain high for now, because they are the only ones with a chance of shutting down healers.

 

This.

 

So many spoiled healers in this thread. The problem we see from a non healer perspective is that 2 and 3 healers just stand around, circle healing each other and interrupting the bomb planters. You can't possibly kill 3 healers in time to cap a node or plant a bomb.

 

Healers are fine. They are more then fine. I swear that healers won't be happy until they can heal people in other instances...just because.

[furiousferret]

This.

 

So many spoiled healers in this thread. The problem we see from a non healer perspective is that 2 and 3 healers just stand around, circle healing each other and interrupting the bomb planters. You can't possibly kill 3 healers in time to cap a node or plant a bomb.

 

Healers are fine. They are more then fine. I swear that healers won't be happy until they can heal people in other instances...just because.

 

First off I'm not complaining. However, spoiled is probably the last word I would call a healer. You obviously have never been focused all game and still expected to put out quality heals for the team.

 

Fact is, the problem with healing is there is a huge skill cap involved which is why some can only heal for 200k a game and others hit 500k + consistently. If you dont use your defensive cooldowns, cc, manage your energy, position, kite, and rotate in some dps you will die. Many DPS are far more spoiled and dont use their defensive cooldowns at all and just expect to be carried by the healers.