We NEED a viable Gap Closer..

[Widgits]

Too many times do I tire of using Sever Tendon, or one of the other stun abilities if I'm within range to try and close a gap on someone, knowing it's not all that worthwhile. Sure it's great to stop Jedi from sprinting away etc, but it could be better. And as it stands, the only "Gap Closer" we have is basically Sever Tendon.

 

Why am I groaning about this? Simple....

 

It's a great skill, but it has one downfall...You can not use it from stealth. Sure, you can say we have sleep dart...But what good is sleep dart, a skill that can not be used in combat mind you, where everyone in a warzone is in combat minus those who respawn or transition while out of combat. But once someone even activates a silly basic attack, there goes our stealth gap closer out the door.

 

We seriously need Sever tendon, to work WHILE stealthed. I'm not asking for much, as I think the cooldowns/root timer is perfectly fine as is...but for the life of me please give us a gap closer we can use in combat and in stealth, make Sever Tendon compatible.

 

As it stands, the moment you use Sever tendon you are forced out of cloak...What does this mean? Well toss out hidden strike usage after a sever tendon, and not only that...Forget about using backstab against a good player who is rooted too...Why? While rooted with Sever Tendon, a player can still turn around in the root and face you, thus eliminating any chance of you getting "Behind" them, for a backstab.

 

Half of our skills are utilized from stealth, and yet we have no way to close the gap while stealthed with another, while yet the Assassins get spring?

 

Please Bioware, simply make sever tendon non-stealth breaking...Anyone else agree with me here or am I just delusional?

Edited July 2, 2012 by Widgits

[WickedImage]

I think what you are asking for is a 30m sever tendon, not a "use from stealth" version Sever Tendon. While that sounds cool, it doesn't change the range limitations you sometimes face on the Operative. You want to stop them from "getting away from you" by having a higher ranged CC. Changing the power in this way would make more sense "if" you were actually buffing the use of the power, Sever Tendon. 10m is 10m no matter how you look at it my brother, and stealthed or not, if they're at 11m, you're still boned.

 

The truth is, you are not a Sith Assassin. You are an Operative. Which means you don't have special powers and force and blah, blah, blah. You don't get those tools. You get Operative tools. Much of what you are lamenting about is "positioning" while you are still in stealth, before you attack, and thinking a smidge further ahead than what you currently do and work on improving on the skills you have. It can make a big difference on any gaps occurring in the first place.

As an Operative, you need to think a bit more than the next guy, position better than the next guy, and you're keys to /Charlie Sheen and Tiger Blood are by controlling your opponent from open to close of the fight. That's how you must approach you're enemies. Intelligently. Because....well, you're an Operative Agent of Imperial Intelligence and that's how we roll.

I would not turn this change down, but I don't feel like it's "needed". Stealth is our gap closer, like it or not.

Once you close on someone from stealth you have many tools to prevent their get away a lot of the time. You're opener allows you a nice advantage and basically spots you 2 GCD's. Depending on the prey, 3 GCD's are very doable. So you get to open with a KD + gobble 1/3 of their health before they ever move or attack back and you still have an aoe CC, a single target CC, and a snare. Focus more on when to use them more efficiently so you are literally "controlling" the entire encounter. If you don't you are either going to get rolled or left behind.

I would also advise that you need a little more savvy with your use of Backstab. No disrespect meant at all, merely saying it sounds like you could have some room for improvement. You state that you are having trouble using Backstab on players and they are facing you, thus not allowing you to use the power? This makes me think you are too literal in how you use. I promise you, there is not a player in this game that can stop me from getting a Backstab on them if that's what I want to do. It may take me a second or two while I position and set them up for it, but I assure you.....that Backstab is going to happen. Run right through them and spin 180....*Kathunk. Done.

If they really are good at facing you as you're running into, then trick them. As you run through them, stop "on" them, 180 and back away as you Backstab. There is always more than one way to skin a Jawa.

We need to stay on the outside of the pack, stalking, thinking, and maneuvering. Picking off the weak, the wounded, the strays. That's what we specialize in. We are to hit fast and hard from the shadows and remain as "undetected" as possible. We do not do well and are not specialized for scrum fighting, dog piles, and aggro.

We are hit and run specialists. We thin numbers while drawing as little attention to ourselves as we can. Sometimes things go wrong.

I feel you're pain my friend. A 30m Sever Tendon I'd take, but I have little use for Sever Tendon from stealth other than to get a JS off on them.....which I already find very reasonable to do as is, as I'm sure others do too, maybe? Can't speak for others I suppose, but for me, I find ST pretty useful already. Hope your experiences improve.

[Widgits]

Why would you want a 30m sever tendon, that lasts 2 seconds for the root, and slows them down for a short bit? If you used it in 30m, why bother even using it at that rate..You need the smaller 10m usage for the reason that anything higher would just be a waste..So no, I don't want a 30m sever tendon

 

Frankly, I'd much prefer the 10m sever tendon, in conjunction with not breaking stealth?

 

Why, so when I DO use it, I can still creep up on them and actually hidden strike OR backstab. As it stands now, if you sever tendon then, you likely won't get a backstab off, even if you are 2m away...Since they will just simply turn to face you while you go up to them.

 

Yes, sever tendon is simply more used just for the root capabilities, but we seriously need some sort of improved gap closer than this.

 

As for the backstab...I have no issues getting it off on anyone, I was merely making a general statement that even when rooted, the player is able to turn during it all and face you..Which in most games a root means they are straight up frozen there unable to even turn.

 

Also, the Enter button on the keyboard works wonders

 

That or you are posting from your phone so alot of stuff I hardly bothered to read due to the formatting..

Edited July 2, 2012 by Widgits

[Dmasterr]

I disagree. We do not "NEED" a gap closer to fulfill our designated role in warzone. Having one at this point in the game would make us overpowered.

[TheLordMagnus]

u guys are already pains to fight just look at how many people are rolling them at the moment went to a wz last night and there was 5 of them all random in a team was funny looking at them all stealth tho lol

[Widgits]

I disagree. We do not "NEED" a gap closer to fulfill our designated role in warzone. Having one at this point in the game would make us overpowered.

 

We have a gap closer.

 

My issue is how it works...Using said gap closer, basically renders half of our attacks useless to a degree.

 

Because of it, I don't even use sever tendon as a gap closer, but more so as an ender...So they don't run off realizing they are about to die.

 

Now, if we could use our closer, from stealth, it would open up the doors some to alleviate some of our issues IMO.

[Sookster]

I disagree. We do not "NEED" a gap closer to fulfill our designated role in warzone. Having one at this point in the game would make us overpowered.

 

So..... assassins with force speed as a gap closer is overpowered?

 

My assassin does a **** ton of damage and can stay with the target thanks to force speed (and force slow), what does operatives have when knocked back and snared?

Edited July 2, 2012 by Sookster

[Ryemfoh]

Gap closer would be welcome, but it's not required. Just learn to use the tools we already have to stay on target.

[Dmasterr]

what does operatives have when knocked back and snared?

 

Healing capability. +medium /30yard abilities.

[willyshoot]

We have a gap closer.

 

No we don't.

[Bazzoong]

I disagree. We do not "NEED" a gap closer to fulfill our designated role in warzone. Having one at this point in the game would make us overpowered.

 

To be honest I agree with this (as much as a charge or grapple would increase the fun level for me and the despair level of everyone else which would please me like hell).

 

None the less I see certain disadvantages that are innate in this class and certain unbalanced aspects in the game that could be fixed by another utility skill for operatives.

 

Basically we are the only AC without any form of easy repositioning skill of any kind, so any of those would do it does not have to be a gap closer like charge friendly pull would be enough or even a "sprint" like predation or even cover pulse would go a very long way, it would not matter if it has a very long cd.

 

It really is not that needed but it would help new operatives a lot, positioning is very unforgiving when playing this class and is probably what keeps the most players away from it.

 

Generally I`d rather advocate other changes though in regards to cds on other classes, 12 sec charge is way to low it should be 24 sec. 45sec force camo is way to short it should be 1min30sec, wither needs a cd a basically spamable aoe slow should not be in the game etc.

Edited July 2, 2012 by Bazzoong

[MobiusZero]

Generally I`d rather advocate other changes though in regards to cds on other classes, 12 sec charge is way to low it should be 24 sec. 45sec force camo is way to short it should be 1min30sec, wither needs a cd a basically spamable aoe slow should not be in the game etc.

 

This.

 

I have always felt the gap closers other classes receive have way too low CDs. Operatives have to play smart, unlike other classes that get pretty much on-demand gap closers (12 seconds is waaaaaay too low!!!). It's so bad, I have literally soloed 4 people defending a node, because I crouched and DoTed them, and they just stood there like idiots trying to figure out why they couldn't use their EZ mode charge button (Most of the skills Ops apply in cover, make us look like we are standing ). It's pretty pathetic, if you ask me. I have never seen a game pander to melee range so much, making it so they basically don't even have to worry about it (Got hit by a 4.5k Vicious Throw, yesterday.), and don't need to use a single brain cell to catch a player at range.

 

I think the issues with Concealment, though, are with DPS. Unnerf the BS cooldown, and other nerfs that were made to them. BS needs the 9 second BS cooldown back, and the 50% ArPen on Acid Blade.

 

Giving us a gap closer will just make us more like those brainless jedi monkeys.

Edited July 2, 2012 by MobiusZero

[Widgits]

No we don't.

 

Sure we do. It's just not effective.

 

Sever tendon closes the gap, or is "meant to" hence why I say we have one.

 

Do we have a gap closer that works similar to other people? Of course not

[z-monty]

I think the problem you have is considering Sever Tendon a gap closer. It's not, plain and simple. Sure you can use it as a mini gap closer, but it's meant to be used to simply slow people down, so it's much more effective if you use it to escape from someone instead of catch up to them.

 

While a gap closer would be cool on an Op, I really think we dont need one. We have plenty of stuns, interrupts, DoTs, stealth, etc. that a lot of other classes dont have so I feel it balances it out. Would I complain if we suddenly got a gap closer or a knockback? Hell no, that would be awesome. But, in all honesty, it would make us a bit over powered. There are far more important things that need addressing, like as has been said with nerfing a bit of the Sent/Marauder tools.

[Trauglodyte]

A gap closer isn't needed. As it has been said, if we had one, we'd be damned near unbeatable due to the abilities that we have. Our only real limitations is the fragile nature of stealth and the slow multiple resource constraints of our damage (on top of a limited lethality - no pun - beyond 4m).

[Dissentus]

I really don't understand why a true gap closer would be overpowered if it were on a significant cooldown compared to most other classes. I don't consider sever tendon a gap closer, I consider it a snare/root, which is a gap prevention tool of which every other class has as well. Stealth is not a true gap closer, it is an alpha strike or surprise attack. The other stealth class has multiple gap closers in any case. We have ranged attacks? Well, so does a BH and they can also gap close with grapple and do more damage at ranged. We have healing? Yes, it's useful, but it's not going to let me do my dps role and apply pressure on a target/target switch etc. Can I play without one? Sure and I have, but I just don't see the reasoning why people are against the idea completely.

[Jonespiano]

This is where I think Lethality spec has it significantly easier, because Corrosive Grenade can be used from 30m, and has a talented AoE snare on it. It's not only a gap closer itself, but it also performs your core DPS setup while you're closing the gap, so you're not just wasting time running to your target. It allows the Operative to easily re-open on a new target without having to go back into stealth and use Hidden Strike. Madness Assassin, which also doesn't spend much of its time in stealth, also has a similar mechanic in Creeping Terror. Slip Away also makes your Debilitate serve a similar function to Force Speed when you want to get out of Dodge, and the cooldown is laughably short at 30s.

 

One of the appealing things about the Operative is that you have a lot of toys at your disposal to make life difficult. It's not just about killing power, though if you are determined, you have what you need to end the fight in your favor. I haven't played the spec very long, but I've taken down every class 1v1 including Assault Vanguards (Evasion is very handy when you know that High Impact Bolt is coming) and burn-spec Sentinels, and that's without getting the drop on them since I don't even have Hidden Strike yet. The only thing that scares me is focus-fire, and that's the same for anyone.

Edited July 5, 2012 by Jonespiano

[Gaucho]

I started a topic about this a long time ago pre- 1.3 Edited July 6, 2012 by Gaucho

[Daiyukie]

Give us a 45 second cooldown, 2 second stealth that doesn't break combat and can be talented to add movement speed and make it unbreakable stealth.

 

Boom, problem solved.

[willyshoot]

Sure we do. It's just not effective.

 

Sever tendon closes the gap, or is "meant to" hence why I say we have one.

 

Do we have a gap closer that works similar to other people? Of course not

 

Sever tendon is not a gap closer. It keeps the gap closed. If some one is 25m away and I hit server tendon what happens?

 

Nothing. The gap is still 25m. An Op has no gap closer... that doesn't mean to say I am agreeing or disagreeing as to whether or not we need one.

Edited July 8, 2012 by willyshoot

[coldserpent]

This.

 

I have always felt the gap closers other classes receive have way too low CDs. Operatives have to play smart, unlike other classes that get pretty much on-demand gap closers (12 seconds is waaaaaay too low!!!). It's so bad, I have literally soloed 4 people defending a node, because I crouched and DoTed them, and they just stood there like idiots trying to figure out why they couldn't use their EZ mode charge button (Most of the skills Ops apply in cover, make us look like we are standing ). It's pretty pathetic, if you ask me. I have never seen a game pander to melee range so much, making it so they basically don't even have to worry about it (Got hit by a 4.5k Vicious Throw, yesterday.), and don't need to use a single brain cell to catch a player at range.

 

I think the issues with Concealment, though, are with DPS. Unnerf the BS cooldown, and other nerfs that were made to them. BS needs the 9 second BS cooldown back, and the 50% ArPen on Acid Blade.

 

Giving us a gap closer will just make us more like those brainless jedi monkeys.

 

It sounds like you've been fighting a bunch of stupid people then if they can't figure out why their leap isn't working. It's very easy to get around cover. I waddle up and whap you until you move, Force Choke you out of it, then immediately leap to you, or Force Camo to pounce on you. A Juggernaut could use Force Push to displace you, then leap to you.

And not every melee class has a 12 second gap closer on demand. That comes with the Annihilation/Watchman tree if they spec into it. Otherwise, Force Charge is 15 seconds, same as Obliterate. If you got hit w/ a 4.5k Vicious Throw, odds are you got caught by a Vengeance spec Juggernaut.

Bioware gave us who are Juggernauts/Marauders tools to be up in your face at one point or another, because our ranged options are far less than the other classes.

 

By the way, if you're sick of seeing Bioware "pander to melee so much," you could always go to Warhammer Online, create a tank class, and suffer the Bright Wizard/Engineer/Shadow Warrior bombardments.

 

Each class has to play smart, and pick their battles carefully, unless they want a quick respawn. If you overextend yourself, you deserve to get walloped. If you get caught alone, you deserve to get whaled on. If you're with a team and by yourself, you're in the wrong place. Wander away from the herd, and you get dragged down like a wildebeest.

[coldserpent]

I really don't understand why a true gap closer would be overpowered if it were on a significant cooldown compared to most other classes. I don't consider sever tendon a gap closer, I consider it a snare/root, which is a gap prevention tool of which every other class has as well. Stealth is not a true gap closer, it is an alpha strike or surprise attack. The other stealth class has multiple gap closers in any case. We have ranged attacks? Well, so does a BH and they can also gap close with grapple and do more damage at ranged. We have healing]? Yes, it's useful, but it's not going to let me do my dps role and apply pressure on a target/target switch etc. Can I play without one? Sure and I have, but I just don't see the reasoning why people are against the idea completely.

 

Not all bounty hunters get Grapple as far as I know. Only Powertechs do. Powertechs also are the only Bounty Hunter to get a Jet Charge ability, but that's only if they spec into Shield Tech.

[Coldin]

Not all bounty hunters get Grapple as far as I know. Only Powertechs do. Powertechs also are the only Bounty Hunter to get a Jet Charge ability, but that's only if they spec into Shield Tech.

 

Mercs are more of a ranged class, while Powetechs are more of a melee class. So makes sense that PTs get a grapple, and a leap if they spec for it.

 

 

Assassins, who are also a melee class, get a sprint and a talented grapple as well. They also get stealth.

 

All warriors get a leap.

 

It's really just Operatives that are left high and dry without any real gap closer to use outside of 10 meters.

[Trauglodyte]

We don't need a gap closer. We just need a more realiable way of staying in stealth and staying on our target without being seen or broken out of stealth. BW has based us so much on stealth that once we lose it, we're screwed. And once we're in combat, any level of displacement puts us in a situation where we're useless until we change targets or just make the long trip back to where we started.

[MobiusZero]

It sounds like you've been fighting a bunch of stupid people then if they can't figure out why their leap isn't working.

 

Obviously. That was half the point I was making. The short cooldown of charges in this game pretty much eliminate the need to utilize traditional melee skills. It basically dumbs down PvP to too great of an extent, skill-wise, and allows for even a mindless dolt to eliminate the range-melee barrier at will.

 

If you got hit w/ a 4.5k Vicious Throw, odds are you got caught by a Vengeance spec Juggernaut.

 

I get hit by 4.5k vicious throws all the time, and it's usually by Marauders (I'm in BM gear).

 

By the way, if you're sick of seeing Bioware "pander to melee so much," you could always go to Warhammer Online, create a tank class, and suffer the Bright Wizard/Engineer/Shadow Warrior bombardments.

 

I certainly don't think that they "pander to melee," especially seeing as, IMO, PT Pyros are the most OP class in the game, and require even less skill than any melee class.

 

What I am saying, is that, coming from a player that typically plays as melee in almost every game (In fact, I originally chose Concealment, 100% because I heard they can play as melee, and I dislike the idea of playing as a jedi. Funny how I ultimately ended up playing as Lethality ), it upsets me to see that so many classes can so easily bypass one of my favorite dynamics in MMO's (Melee overcoming the range barrier.).

 

Granted, I'm not saying melee should have no gap closer - I just think that 12 seconds (Or 15. Big damn difference!), is waaaaaay to short, and really dumbs down the traditional melee paradigm.

Edited July 9, 2012 by MobiusZero