Bioware, Class balance and Powertechs

[Kayse]

Wait a minute. So you are calling for a nerf for Advance Prototype/Tactics too? AP has considerably less DPS than pyrotech, and is a more complex spec requiring you to build stacks of prototype flame thrower and then use this channeled AOE cone to do your big burst. Not to mention working for charged gauntlet and flame barrage procs. The skill cap for AP is higher than it is for pyro, and if a guy can pull 460k with it I say good on him.

 

You're messages are completely mixed: you're calling for a global nerf to an entire advanced class while simultaneously linking screenshots of your own damage which is considerably higher than the classes you're complaining about. You're also playing a marauder, which many consider overtuned for PVP.

 

If you are losing your 1v1s to powertechs, you are playing the game wrong. As a marauder you should be absolutely destroying them.

 

I can understand frustration with pyrotechs. The burst is high, but no one with even a small grasp of class mechanics would say that Advanced Prototype needs a nerf.

 

Your complete lack of understanding of how the different specs work isn't the problem here. The problem is that you're posting screenshots of flame burst hitting for 2k+ without telling folks that you're not talking about pyrotech, which is the spec most people here complain about. AP allows spec into raising the damage of flame burst above that of pyro, but AP has lower dps output than pyro.

 

Basically, you're grabbing screenshots of a different spec and conflating all the abilities a powertech has. You are spreading misinformation about the class.

 

Your posts and complaints have lost all credibility. Stop trolling and L2P.

 

Oh, and next time on VS you'll want to pay more attention to the doors. We had a good chuckle over vent when you completely ignored the door while swinging yer sticks and we capped it on you the other day .

 

Lol'd what? Was this a ranked fight? Only 4 i've been in where we have lost were 3 huttballs and 1 coast. The huttball fights were with teams stacked with shadows/powertechs too. If you did this in a voidstar and i was pugging I dont do objectives to save me the headache from dealing with pugs. But again if you want to argue about me "letting you guys cap" and laughing please refer to my last screenie at the coast, kthx. Also way to ignore my other post, wont even give me your name ingame, which makes your ingame claims completely irrelevant and voided. Not to mention it shows you are either avoiding having me know, which in itself is hilarious, or again it just shows an inability to read other peoples posts before going on here and just talking smack.

 

And no, I do think advanced proto is fine i was just saying how they can spam 2-3k's consistently, and i was called on it to which i provided proof. People getting mixed signals and making up crap in their heads however is not my fault due to their inability to comprehend.

 

Again, if people would read..but i know this is near impossible to do it seems, I play more than sentinel, and i can kill Powertechs on my Sentinel, if my CD's are up. To those who say that our 4 CD's really even help much versus them..again...go..back..and just read...sigh..like page 16... Can't believe im actually still here trying to beat a dead horse filled with people talking trash when they clearly did not even attempt to read. Yet here i am being called the troll, the irony of it is all too savoring.

Edited July 2, 2012 by Kayse

[Yestreen]

I go by the philosophy that there isn't a "good" or a "bad" powertech. There is just a powertech. With 0 skill curve, each and every powertech is an issue which raises serious questions about class balance.

 

 

-"They go down easily, just target them" All DPSers go down easily if t hey are targeted... it's meant to be that way. The difference is in that if you get two people to target a powertech, he has respectable mitigations with heavy armour and a -25% reduction shield. Now get two people to target a sage, see the difference in TTK. Simply put, they don't go down easily enough, if this is meant to somehow be the class' compromise for their over the top DPS.

 

 

There are definitely good and bad powertechs.

 

They do go down easily. Sages are harder to kill because they have a knockback, shield and sprint. Powertechs only have a damage reduction cooldown.

 

A skilled player of any class can dominate any other player of any other class. I know concealment (and lethality!) operatives that tear apart marauders and mercenaries that can kite and kill melee all day long. All these NERF POWERTECH and NERF MARAUDER threads are mostly bads who cant play their class.

 

What I do agree with, however, is that pyro powertechs are easier to play than other classes and therefore have a lower skill cap.

 

I recommend that all of you go check the forums for advice/tips for playing against classes you think are OP.

[Roiz]

recently I had a big fun kiting marauder on my powertech in voidstar around boxes. They cannot charge over box and cannot rich you at all, but PT can still nuke any melee over a box.

[JayPres]

Powertech is fine.

 

Purge the fire or get out of range. The burst damage is manageable now. No nerfs needed.

[Zorcha]

Powertech is fine.

 

Purge the fire or get out of range. The burst damage is manageable now. No nerfs needed.

 

Nonsense, you need to go play against real Powertechs then come back and say that, not the noskill noobs who are swarming the wz's with Powertechs nowadays just because they can top the charts for the first time in their life.

[bellok]

Why are you guys focusing on powertechs right now when Marauders are a bigger problem in this game?

[bellok]

Why are you guys focusing on powertechs right now when Marauders are a bigger problem in this game?

 

Wait I know the answer to that, because most of you are marauders.

[SajPl]

Why are you guys focusing on powertechs right now when Marauders are a bigger problem in this game?

 

Pretty much this and to be honest I won't be surprised if they again buff warriors and nerf ... everything else just because a failmara could't kill a commando healer and needed to cry on the forums about t...

[Telree]

Class balance in an MMO is akin to Bigfoot or Nessy. Everyone talks about, claims they saw it once in some other MMO, but have no proof. Class balance in an MMO PvP environtment is even more of a myth. Folks it just will not EVER happen. If you want that kind of balance it does exist, but not in MMO PvP...you need to go play a FPS. There you will find balance. There everyone is "equal". But in an MMO it just won't happen.

 

One reason is the balancing required for PvE vs. PvP is completely different. And when one of these are "balanced" it just makes things worse for the other. Two, MMO's are always gear based PvP/PvE....so it's up to the player to try and "grind" for that gear. Meanwhile they are getting pwned or cant contribute as well as others in a raid(with a percentage coming to gen chat or these forums whining about balance and how unfair it is they die in 5 seconds, and crying "NERF!")

 

The real key to "balance" in an MMO is the player. Learn how all the classes work, like you should know your own. Learn to adapt, change up strategies, work with your team, mark the OP class to get the team to focus if neccessary.But STOP with the "nerf" crap. Everytime a Dev team listens to the "squeeky wheels" they just make things worse. Happens everytime. And remember, just because you got pwned, doesnt mean the class is actually OP. It may just be you and your play style thats really pwning you.

[Siorac]

Pretty much this and to be honest I won't be surprised if they again buff warriors and nerf ... everything else just because a failmara could't kill a commando healer and needed to cry on the forums about t...

 

Okay, this is driving me insane. People always say WARRIORS - then proceed to complain about Sentinels/Marauders.

 

Why does nobody ever say "Troopers" when they actually mean to whine about Vanguards? Or Bounty Hunters when they mean Powertech?

 

It's really annoying. As if the other warrior/knight AC - YES, THERE IS ANOTHER ONE - was as grossly out of line as Sentinel/Marauder.

[alcek]

And remember, just because you got pwned, doesnt mean the class is actually OP. It may just be you and your play style thats really pwning you.

Quit this nonsense already. The forums are vomitting at this type of "wisdom", no one needs it.

On top of everything, it is wrong.

[Telree]

umm...no i am not. But thanks for your opinion. But the nerf hammer only hurts the game 90% of the time. And yes, more often than not folks need to learn their classes as well as the other classes, and not cry about nerfs/OP classes. Does sound like I hit a nerve though. Perhaps a little introspection would help your game as well.

[KBSIP]

If you refuse to provide a comprehensive, complete interpretation of the subject matter beyond "nerf pyrotechs" then you had best shut your mouth when bioware comes back and says "the metrics are fine". Their metrics include both PVE and PVP. if you claim one side of the spectrum is off balance you must propose solutions that will not unbalance the PVE side of things. this is YOUR job if you want your feedback to be taken seriously.

[Zorcha]

Marauders are fine. yes they do damage but they are an absolute dps class with no other tools such as aoe taunt, single taunt, knockbacks, pulls, pushes, heavy armor, guard (choice) etc.

Mercs and Commandos should also be a pure dps class, same with snipers. Not Powertechs.

 

Learn to kite marauders or seriously go learn to play

[Roiz]

Why are you guys focusing on powertechs right now when Marauders are a bigger problem in this game?

Marauder is not a problem. There are many ways to counter them, like snipers, roots, knockbacks, but no way to counter skilled teams who stack powertechs. They grapple one person then focus fire him with 3-4 PT, then next PT grapple , dead again.

PT have all tools to be above all classes in WZ.

1. Grapple - they have an option to get target for slaughter inside their team. If they grapple the target it dies in few seconds.

2. Ability to abuse LOS and walls, they can easily do ranged damage on the move and use the advantages of pillars. IF PT play against other ranged DD who need to cast and there is pillar nearby PT always win,

3. Burst is higher than any other class, ignore armor. They can busrst tanks at the same speed as dps.

 

The main template to burn enemy team is focus fire them 3 or 4 dps attack one target at the same time, PT fits it better than others. Let's say 4 marauders charge one target, you can knock back them and save yourself. If 4 PT grapple you and focus you , you died. But if 4 dps focus one PT and they are mlee PT can use area stun and get 2 GSD as free time to act.

Edited July 4, 2012 by Roiz

[KBSIP]

Marauder is not a problem. There are many ways to counter them, like snipers, roots, knockbacks, but no way to counter skilled teams who stack powertechs. They grapple one person then focus fire him with 3-4 PT, then next PT grapple , dead again.

PT have all tools to be above all classes in WZ.

1. Grapple - they have an option to get target for slaughter inside their team. If they grapple the target it dies in few seconds.

2. Ability to abuse LOS and walls, they can easily do ranged damage on the move and use the advantages of pillars. IF PT play against other ranged DD who need to cast and there is pillar nearby PT always win,

3. Burst is higher than any other class, ignore armor. They can busrst tanks at the same speed as dps.

 

you're comparing one marauder to 3-4 powertechs. 3-4 marauders can perform just as well if they synergize specs and strat. also; practically every class in the game has a method of removing roots/snares in either natural cooldowns or talent trees. please note that your proposed situation has 3-4 powertechs hanging back and pealing one person away to burst him down. granted, that's 3-4 grapples, but if you're going to just sit there and let them pick you off one by one you deserve to get smashed. incompetent teamplay.

 

in all honesty I only ever see powertechs overperform in terms of raw numbers either

A) against bad players

or

B) against healer heavy teams/solo focusing healers.

 

I've personally made it a challenge to take on powertechs of all specs, and vanguards, with my two other 50's, and I've been more than capable of taking them down both on my guardian and on my sniper. the fact that you cannot means its a player style issue. I won't say player skill, as SWTOR PVP is simple enough that skill requirements are marginal for any class or player.

[Twor]

Marauders are fine. yes they do damage but they are an absolute dps class with no other tools such as aoe taunt, single taunt, knockbacks, pulls, pushes, heavy armor, guard (choice) etc.

Mercs and Commandos should also be a pure dps class, same with snipers. Not Powertechs.

 

Learn to kite marauders or seriously go learn to play

 

No other tools like the strongest healing debuff in game, the only group speed buff, passive small aoe healing (depends on spec), quick interrupts you mean? They can't shut down a sniper almost completely (pacify) and don't have an AoE mez I guess either.

 

I didn't even touch the defensive CDs or did comment on the several classes you threw together in your post.

[Telree]

I've personally made it a challenge to take on powertechs of all specs, and vanguards, with my two other 50's, and I've been more than capable of taking them down both on my guardian and on my sniper. the fact that you cannot means its a player style issue.

 

 

Amen! This is exactly what I mean. The guy made a point of finding a way to defeat PT's. He set out to learn their weaknesses, and has adapted. He is not sitting here crying about how OP PT's are. He isnt yelling for the Nerf bat. He took the bull by the horns and is doing what most good PvPers do. He set out to learn how to defeat the "OP" class, and suceeded.

 

Alcek said to me in this thread

 

"Quit this nonsense already. The forums are vomitting at this type of "wisdom", no one needs it. On top of everything, it is wrong."

 

To you I would hazard to say that perhaps there isnt enough of my "type of wisdom", perhaps a little less whining and a bit more effort. And as I said after your post...I am not wrong, nor is my advice. Been PvPing in practically every MMO that has come out. And this BS happens in ALL of them without fail. BUt since WoW it's gotten worse. WoW kiddies always wanted things to be easier. And Blizzard let them run rough shot (also a LOL to whoever said that the WoW dev team undestood how to "balance" that game...they tweek their classes with the Nerf Bat more than most other MMOs)

[Roiz]

Amen! This is exactly what I mean. The guy made a point of finding a way to defeat PT's. He set out to learn their weaknesses, and has adapted. He is not sitting here crying about how OP PT's are. He isnt yelling for the Nerf bat. He took the bull by the horns and is doing what most good PvPers do. He set out to learn how to defeat the "OP" class, and suceeded.

 

Alcek said to me in this thread

 

"Quit this nonsense already. The forums are vomitting at this type of "wisdom", no one needs it. On top of everything, it is wrong."

 

To you I would hazard to say that perhaps there isnt enough of my "type of wisdom", perhaps a little less whining and a bit more effort. And as I said after your post...I am not wrong, nor is my advice. Been PvPing in practically every MMO that has come out. And this BS happens in ALL of them without fail. BUt since WoW it's gotten worse. WoW kiddies always wanted things to be easier. And Blizzard let them run rough shot (also a LOL to whoever said that the WoW dev team undestood how to "balance" that game...they tweek their classes with the Nerf Bat more than most other MMOs)

 

Compose a team full of mercs healers and dps, operatives(not the heals but dps) and dps sins and try to fight a team of 3-4PT DPS , 2Healers and two tanks, good luck.

[Telree]

Compose a team full of mercs healers and dps, operatives(not the heals but dps) and dps sins and try to fight a team of 3-4PT DPS , 2Healers and two tanks, good luck.

 

Well my suggestion would be to make up a similar team and beat the snot out of them. Honestly this thread, and many many others make me sad. So freaking defeatist. Quit all the whining already. I would love to see real stats on how many truely undefeated rated WZ teams there are. I bet it's zero, or extreamly rare. I also understand team make up means a lot in the rated WZ's. But what is stopping you from making up a similar team?

 

Ive said this a couple of times already in this thread already.....learn how all the classes work (weaknesses and strengths), adapt, and you will be fine. Not saying youre going to win everytime, but you will have more fun and die less, and, perish the thought, maybe not come here and whine so much.

[Legendari]

Well my suggestion would be to make up a similar team and beat the snot out of them. Honestly this thread, and many many others make me sad. So freaking defeatist. Quit all the whining already. I would love to see real stats on how many truely undefeated rated WZ teams there are. I bet it's zero, or extreamly rare. I also understand team make up means a lot in the rated WZ's. But what is stopping you from making up a similar team?

 

Ive said this a couple of times already in this thread already.....learn how all the classes work (weaknesses and strengths), adapt, and you will be fine. Not saying youre going to win everytime, but you will have more fun and die less, and, perish the thought, maybe not come here and whine so much.

 

Yeah, and this is why everyone and their mom is rolling a PT or Vanguard right now, because it is blatantly obvious that PvP has been reduced to "the team that stacks the most PTs wins".

 

Rated WZs should be about the most skilled team winning, not the team that has the cheapest team build. Sure, you can overcome one or two of them on a team with coordination and skill, but some people are stacking four or five on a team and facerolling everyone they play (something that wasn't really possible before ranked). A team or guild shouldn't be expected to abandon the classes they like playing and all go roll some cheap *** FOTM class just to compete. Let's face it, the class takes ZERO skill to play compared to every other class, so you can take a handful of mediocre players and easily dominate a skilled, well-balanced team with sheer brute force.

 

Bioware will need to address the problem sometime soon, because there is an obvious imbalance there. Question is, will they do something before ranked PvP is totally run into the ground?

[Zorcha]

Yeah, and this is why everyone and their mom is rolling a PT or Vanguard right now, because it is blatantly obvious that PvP has been reduced to "the team that stacks the most PTs wins".

 

And here lies the problem

[Telree]

I remember folks crying about this in WoW. Teams would stack some preceived OP class and everyone whined. Its not fair. It's hurting the PvP environment. Funny enough, it was either never adressed or they nerfed the hell out of the offending class, which simply created a new OP class for folks to whine about. Nothing was "fixed" But somehow PvP continued on it's merry way. The game didnt end (unfortunately) but continued to draw (gasp) more people.

 

You all are expecting BW/EA to listen to you. Be careful what you wish for, because you may just get it. The nerf hammer should be something used as a last resort. Not the first thing people demand. And if they made the matching system start forming teams composition for us, well just get ready for hella long queues. And that doesnt take into effect the fact that people with cry that now they dont have the freedom to make up their own teams.

 

This game's PvP isnt perfect by any stretch. But really it's not much different than most other MMO PvP systems. And I have yet to play or even heard of a MMO with any real class balance. It's something that folks have cried about in just about every MMO Ive played (DAoC was the one exception and even then there were a few whiners), and it is something that has NEVER been acheived.

[SaulSerpine]

You guys really think BW is going to nerf this spec ?

 

LOL. How would they do that without hurting AP tree and assault merc ?

 

The only way would be to decrease armor penetration from 90% to 75% and remake the dot proc from flame burst. Mercs have 60% right now. This kind of scenario is not going to fix how bad you are. You will still die facing PT.

 

Shockstrike is fine for assault pt. AP shockstrike hits a lot harder. Flame burst ? the same. AP have 30% surge bonus. The dots ? that s exactly the same for the merc. TD ? Same here.

 

Cry more. You just want this class to be destroyed.

 

For the maura player, how can you lose against PT with 5 defensive cd ?

Edited July 4, 2012 by SaulSerpine

[ProfessorWalsh]

For the maura player, how can you lose against PT with 5 defensive cd ?

 

...

 

They don't have 5 Defensive CDs, they have arguably 3.

 

Rebuke (doesn't work so well against Pyro AoE), Saber Ward (same), and Vanish (also doesn't work so well vs AoE).

 

PTs simply hit too hard and unlike Marauders and Sentinels they can stun you and continue to attack you. There lies the problem. See if a Sentinel or Marauder stuns you they can't attack you, because the stun is channeled. If they mez you, then hit you, it breaks instantly.

 

PTs simply need their Stun turned into a Mez so they can't stun and burn and they would be fine.