The sheer amount of whine and rage in this thread is astounding.........

*kicks the dead horse* Been through this "discussion" so many times. Only going to say a couple of quick things. First the team kick option. Sound reasonable on it's face, but lends to all sorts of abuse. If this were to be implemented, then it would need more than a simple majority. I would say it should require 7 votes. But I think (not speaking for anyone else) it's just a bad idea. As to penalty vs. incentive. I like the incentive idea, but for the life of me I cant think of one that would actually stop the ragers and the win farmers from leaving. But the idea sounds good. Penalty has been the standard for other MMOs, and usually isnt so bad as to make folks unsub. (WoW had/has it for years...and folks kept joining and rarely did anyone rage about how unfair it was) Usually it's the length of a typical WZ. I hear those worried about getting a bug (though in the 100's of WZ I have been in, I have never had something like that perma stun one happen to me personally), and those that have to leave for legit reasons (like RL stuff has to be taken care of immediately)...not sure what can be done about those in a penalty type situation. One last thing. Threatening to unsub because you dont like something like a penalty, is childish...sorry (and Im sure someone will write a wall of text saying how I am wrong, go ahead) but thats how you come off. And if that's all it takes to cause you to leave, then I am thinking you were already considering it anway. Im sure BW wont say this, but I dont work for BW/EA, so go ahead and leave, you wont be missed by many, if any, folks.

This was a very successful troll....LOL

Having personally beat this horse to death, Richard I can tell you that the forums are not the place to go. Id say 80% or the folks that post a lot here just like to troll or take the alternative view to any post they come across. And of course you have a few like Ghostuka that puts forth a decent argument, but he will never agree (at least on this subject) hell you could tell most of the folks in this thread that they would earn a real gold bar every match you complete and they would still tell you they will quit.... I will just say what Ive always said....you want to quit, leave ,absond, take off, fly away, jet, run...whatever....you pay the same money as everyone else and NO one should begrudge you that right....but you should get a short temporary lock out (10 to 16 minutes roughly the length of a WZ).....simple and not devastating. And contrary to all the bluster and bravado...very very few people would quit because of that. Hell as much as I dislike WoW, theyve had this ever since they introduced the instanced battle grounds....it is nothing new. Just those who like to fish for a winning team and those Rage quitters feel that only they matter, and could give a **** about the folks who's time they may be wasting by quitting

this is my last post on this thread. Not because I am not enjoying the "discussion" but Im on a vacation (which is why I even bothered to read the forums in the first place. No game access for me while Im away) and about to go out with a bunch of friends to tie on one as it were. As to your continued belief that my example is bad. Once again, if you read the example I wrote, there is no going to the coach. (no coach in WZ's as you yourself pointed out) No going out on an injury (real or fake), you just dont tell anyone, you just walk off the field and out of the game. You keep adding things in that make YOUR point completely disregarding anything Ive written, but my example fit perfectly with my point. Its rage quitting pure and simple. And there would be penalties. Fines for sure and most likely you would be benched for a certain amount of games (a time penalty like I suggested) You are right those things also would be reasons to be fined as well. But that doesnt take away from my example. In your chicken soup example and my leaving the game in the middle....BOTH would get penalties associated with them. We can, as you said though, agree to disagree.

Seems like you just want to argue. But thats OK....my example was fine...I didnt say you went to a coach. I didnt say you faked an injury. Mainly because we are talking about leaving a WZ. I said you got up and just walk off the field. You dont tell anyone, you just leave. Trust me...there would be huge fines for that. And thats exactly what you are doing when you leave a WZ. You dont say "OMG I got shot in the knee with an arrow I have to leave." You dont have a WZ coach to say I need to sit out...you just get up and leave. I also agreed that all the reasons you listed for kicking (including the AFKer and the guy you fight with because he sucks.) What I am saying is that system would be abused...period. I did give a way for it to work maybe...which would be that a kick would require all 7 other players to vote for it. But I guess you dont like that either...cant imagine why? Maybe you just need to justify to youself why leaving a WZ is OK because it looks like a loss, or because you want to queue fish for a winning match (which were the original arguements in this thread for a penalty), or because you think someone is afk'ing, or just think you know how to PvP better. Im not sure....but you have yet to show me one reason why there shouldnt be a penalty above and beyond what you gave up by voluntarily quitting on your team. And the penalty I suggested isnt that harsh at all...in fact you could go do some crafting, or a class quest, or just explore...hell you could go have a beer, smoke a bowl, have a cig, make a sandwich....doesnt matter. Just so long as you cant re queue imediately after rage quitting (which in essence is what you are defending)

No one has to buy Recruit gear any more. Its got thru one quest (which is barely a quest considering how easy it is). Now once that quest is done you can take the gear (which is way better than any pre 50 gear period)...or you can take the credits. But if you take the credits dont ***** because you are getting owned in a WZ. And dont be surprised when people give you grief because you have crappy gear.

I agree all great reasons to kick someone....but you cant control that, nor could BW for that matter. You will have folks abuse that system from the get go. Maybe if 7 folks vote on a kick. maybe that would work, but good luck getting 7 people to agree on anything in this game. But if someone is a serious tool then the rest of the team may just agree to kick them. But Im sure that all those MMO PvP systems that are out there now or in the past have a good reason for not implementing such a thing. And as I said earlier no one should begrudge you that right to leave....just it's my opinion and many others (yes I know there are folks on both sides of this issue) that an additional penalty(beyond the loss of time and creds, medals, and exp you voluntarily gave up by quitting) should be put in place is all.

haha...ok Lets say you are a football player. And your team is losing. So you say the hell with it and leave the game, just walk right off the field of play. Now you have lost time, and Im sure you would lose any money connected with playing the game. But on top of that the league will fine you (penalty) for breech of contract, insubordination, and Im sure a few other things. Now of course they have a replacement for you, but you still hurt the team. And just like a player in any game you leave, it is not the time you spent before quitting, nor is it the creds/medals you didnt earn (because you left) that count as a penalty...its the fines that are levied afterward. All above and beyond what you think of as a loss/penalty...because you left. It hurts the team...be it the High School football team, Major League Baseball or a WZ. I hope that makes it clearer for you....once again the medals, cred and exp you never earned (cant lose what you dont have) are not a penalty. Its the fine (additional loss of credits or exp, or medals) or the loss of the ability to queue for 10 or 15 minutes is the actual penalty.

You do realize that is refering to taking money( or medals I guess in this case) from you above and beyond those "medals" that you havent even earned...if you quit you didnt have anything to take...now if you want this method sure...then if you quit you lose some credits out of your bank or medals from previous fights (which really isnt much of a penalty) or maybe take away some exp though this would be kinda harsh in my estimation, but it needs to be enough to make someone stop and think if leaving is really worth it. Which is why I suggest time...... quitting voluntarily does not represent a penalty. It really is simple....you leave you get a penalty of some sort....you want them to take exp, or medals, or credits...that is fine....but just leaving doesnt constitute a penalty. Nothing is stopping you from leaving , be my guest....but that in itself is not a penalty. As far as majority vote....how does one really know what the others are doing. Ive had ragers yell and whine because I didnt follow thier directions....would that be reason to vote someone out? Or what if there is a 4 man premade in there and their guild doesnt like the guild someone is in...is it ok for them to vote that person out? What if someone is guarding a node by themselves and get stunned and ganked in a couple of seconds, not giving them enough time to yell for help...would that be a reason to kick someone? (Ive seen many ragers lose it on folks for that example)Tyrrany of the masses is never good. You can keep saying how great it would be and maybe you would even argue that no one would be kicked unless they were a real tool. But you cant make sure thats the rule would be followed. You only open up another can of worms. Which is probably why Ive never seen that in any MMO ive played. And if you think these things wont happen...just listen to the folks that complain because they got a random kick from a raid or even a Op.

Perhaps you dont understand the meaning of a penalty. pen•al•tyˈpɛn l ti(n.)(pl.)-ties. 1.a punishment imposed or incurred for a violation of law or rule. 2.a loss, forfeiture, etc., incurred by nonfulfillment of some obligation. 3.something forfeited, as money. 4.a disadvantage imposed upon one side for infraction of the rules of a game or sport. You choosing to leave is NOT a penalty. And while I agree it would be nice to kick out incompetent players, who would be the judge of that? haha....I can only imagine what a mess that would be. I did give a reasonable time frame. But I didnt say it was the only way to address this, just there does need to be something done.

First I like how the OP likes to attack anyone that disagrees with his opinion. It's just good old fashioned entertainment. As to the OP idea that he, and anyone else, can quit when they think they may not win due to a "bad" team. I agree he can...but that should still have a penalty. Maybe 10 or 15 minutes. Basically the length of a WZ. What that does is penalize the rage quitters and those who quit until they find a winning match. And doesnt hurt the folks to badly that need to drop out due to real life things. But to say you can quit at will with no reprucussions, that you can abadon a team because they arent doing what you think is right only to re queue immediately...thats BS....sorry I understand the pain in your example, seen it hundreds of times (all I do is PvP in SWTOR) but I stick it out. I do this for a couple of reasons. The main reason is quitting just has never been something I do well. I feel bad for those I leave and personally feel bad as well. Also, as has been pointed out in this thread. Its a waste of time. ( i know the argument against this is they are wasting thier time staying in a losing match with a bunch of numbnuts in it) And lastly because you can never tell what will happen. As example I can tell you that because you have 10% energy in Alderaan and the opposing team has 90% doesnt mean you lose. Unlike Civil War where at a certain point (once the winning team has twice the energy) there is only the slimmest of margins to win. ( And even in Cival War Ive seen us win by grabbing and holding three turrets.) Ive seen plenty of matches where the tables were turned and the losing team pulled it off and wins. And Voidstar is the same. Ive seen the "attacking" team walk thru every door/bridge/forcefield like nobody is even there, and then when the sides are switched it goes even faster for the "new" attacking team and they win. Huttball is the same. Ive been in quite a few turnarounds in that WZ one time even winning after being down by 5 goals. You just dont know. So like I said, you have every right to quit, and I certainly dont begrudge anyone that right....but there should be some sort of penalty associated with that action.

Ive been playing MMO's since EQ1. And always, always, play on a PvP server( In fact Ive never even made a toon on a PvE server). And as many have said when you make a toon on a PvP server you need to expect to be attacked. The OP asked if there was a way to avoid being griefed. That is a difficult question. The only MMO Ive played that even tried to adress this was EQ1. and it had some serious flaws. In that game, for those of you that didnt play on a EQ1 PvP server, you couldnt attack someone more than 8 levels below or above you. Seems like a great idea except for one really serious problem. That problem was immortal healers. Simply put as long as the healer was outside that 8 level range for the "ganker" they could just sit there unmolested and heal the "gankee" with no fear of reprisal. It was bad. Ruined a lot of PvP. I agree with a statement I read in this thread. Those that go out with the intention of just ganking "lowbies" are either a terrible PvPer and just needs to finally win a fight, or drunk adults, or kids. And to brag about it always seemed lame. Kinda like saying you went to the local elementary school as an adult...pick out some poor 4th grader and kick the snot out of him. Then went around bragging how awesome it was. Lame, but they do pay the same money as the rest of us, and unfortunately they can go right on doing it. Is it greifing? Depends, are they camping that area just to gank lowbies? Then yes it is. But if it's just a drive by ganking....they kill you as they are traveling somewhere and dont hang around after with the intention of killing you again...then no it isnt greifing, it's just life on a PvP server. The only real answer is to have higher level friends/guildmates who will come clear them out. But even that is temporary as the ganker will just wait until the higher levels leave and return and re commence the griefing.

You are talking about Mara's and Snipers here....and while I dont play a Mara, I do play a Sniper. And I can say this is completely wrong. My sniper is only level 23 ( I have 50 Merc and a 50 Sorc healer as well) and at that level I have more CC than I know what to do with (I know, its just an expression)....in fact when needed I hardly DPS at all sometimes and just CC and knock back folks all over. Yes I do awesome DPS too, but Ive got 2 knockbacks (Ambush and Cover Pulse), one slow(Leg Shot) and two stuns(Flashbang and Debilitate). Thats 5 CC abilities. I can completely lock someone down if I need to. So to say that Snipers only offer DPS is false. Either you dont understand the class or youre just spouting nonesense.

This is an MMO, that means (and has always meant) he who has no life gets the gear. Name one MMO that doesnt. You made your WoW reference, well unless things have changed radically in the last two and a half years since I played that game, gear grinding was how it worked in that game as well....and I remember plenty of times folks haveing much better PvP gear than others. You know what we did? We played the game, and grinded out the gear to compete. It's no different in SWTOR

Man, it's gear....yes, when you enter the 50 WZ/RWZ your gear isnt good. Nor should it be. Your NEW. All one has to do is grind it out, and eventually they too will be sporting a shiney new WH suit. The folks that currently have it, and Im sure you are aware of this little factoid) had to grind to get it. Time consuming yes (but isnt that the very nature of MMO's; timesinks) but imposible to do...absolutely not. In fact this game, gear is extreamly easy to get. Less nerfing, and more learning.

I think they are thinking Holy Jeez I need to start gearing up.

Just say "NO" to the nerf bat!

considering the forums represent like 5 or 10% of the people playing SWTOR, Id say no I dont think that means much.

Just to make my point, currently on the first page of this forum there are 20 posts showing. Out of those 5 are not some yelling nerf or crying in general about the game.

Come on! Just stop! There is a counter to everything a PT has. Just as there is a counter to every other class ability. You just need to take the time to learn them. This game doesnt require a PhD to learn, in fact it doesnt take a grade school edumaction to figure out. SWTOR is second only to the evil WoW in simplicity. The same goes with RWZ's, so freakin what if they have 5 PT's, if you have a "balanced team" you have just as much chance (actually probably better) to beat that team. But people panic (Oh noes look at all those big ole mean PTs. We are doomed I tell you , DOOOOMED) and they lose their ****, and then come here crying about how they lost a match. Less nerf crying and more learning. Follow this young Jedi and perhaps you can put away that tissue and have some fun. And I would make one suggestion to BW/EA...change the name of this forum please, because PvP is rarely ever talked about here. Perhaps call it the Nerf forum, or the Butthurt forum, because that is 90% of what goes on here

Khoraji is completely right. Less nerf crying and more learning to counter your opponents attacks and defensive moves. And I play a Sorc healer (pure healer, not a hybrid). Here, Ill give ya a couple of hints....dont stand there and take damage. Bubble, knockback, speedburst, and LoS are all your friends. Embrace them, sleep with them, take em out to dinner. Because You really seem to have no idea how to play a healer.

You can buy you lvl 40 PvP gear at any level. I had a complete set of the lvl 40 PvP before I hit 35. After that, like has been said, stock up on medpacks and adrenals until lvl 40...then start to buy and save Ranked Warzone Coms. Those stack up to I believe 3500, then when you hit 50 you can purchase a decent amount of BM gear right out of the gate. Plus you can do the Recruit gear quest to fill in the pieces you are missing until you can fill out the rest of the BM gear.

WoW is the most dumbed down game to ever call itself an MMO. And you make my point that it doesnt take skill to play a PT, but I would take that a step further and say that about all the classes/specs in SWTOR. I have a PT Pyro, but I quit playing him long ago. Because of the lack of decent healers I went old school (haha by this I mean I went back to healing...been a healer in EQ1-druid and cleric, CoH-Medic, WoW-Druid and Paly) and made a Sorc pure healer. But yes I have one, and I can tell you there is definately a counter to every darn ability a PT Pyro has. And snares are nothing new in an MMO, most classes get some form of them in most MMO's...and of course there are counters to them (EQ1 a Ranger snare lasted like 8 minutes....and folks dealt with it, of course some cried...but not the majority.) Once again, learn the strengths and weaknesses of each class, as you should know your own. By doing this you will one: have more fun, two: die less. Not saying you wont get grappeled, not saying you wont get snared. And I am not say that every counter works every time. But it's PvP, it shouldnt be as easy as it is in the first place. Take up the challenge, and have fun. Of course that is unless you feel it's fun to come cry and complain....then just go play the game

Normally I dont come to these forums. And when I do it's only to the Customer Service forum usually. But I had to fly back home for a memorial and wont be able to play until I return. So to get my "fix" I figured I'd come read the PvP forums once in a while. Basically thinking if I cant PvP then maybe reading folks talking about it would be a decent way to keep entertained. I expected to find folks epeen wagging, talking WZ strats, maybe some gear advice, ect. You know, talk about PvP (world or instanced). What I found was nothing of the sort. Well to be fair I found a couple of topics I mentioned. But they are very far from the norm in the PvP forum section. What is the norm is whining and crying. And a lot of NERF, NERF, NERF. What it seems is there are two camps. But intractable, both demanding for the other camp to **** and agree with them, or out come the flame throwers. (sorta like the U.S. Congress currently) Then there is the barrage of nerf crying. And a majority of those are for the simple reason that most folks dont want to take the time to learn how the other classes work. The nerf hammer is the choice of last resort, not the first darn thing you call for. This game in the MMO world is second on the "dumb downed" MMO's list. First being WoW. I love this game (well except freakin Error 9000, my nemisis). I am not a huge Star Wars fan (Waited in line for three hours to see the first movie (think its episode 4 nowadays), and saw the next two in the theaters as well. But for me the Ewoks were the begining of the end and Jar Jar (which I didnt see in the theaters nor did I see the last two until the were on DvD) put the nail in the coffin. In other words Im no Star Wars fanboi. I just like this game. But each time the Nerf hammer falls a little more of this game gets ruined. Not made better, but slowing torn it down. Im not saying that the game is perfect, Im not saying that classes dont need to be tweeked once in a while. But each time a nerf happens it only creates a new "OP" class. It fixes nothing, except to make the "sqeeky wheels" happy for a day until they can find a new class to cry nerf about. Just STOP it, or at least try to find away around your current gripe (Mara's do to much damage, or my favorite PT's grappel me I cant get away) because 90% of the time there is in fact a way to counter every single complaint Ive read in this forum. When I look at the forum title now, I read PvP section, but really it just a place to come complain and gripe. Yes I do realize this post could be placed into that catagory. But the difference is I am pleading, no I am begging you all to stop. BW CS doesnt seem to be filled with the sharpest tools in the shed, so they listen to all the crying and eventually do as is demanded. And each time it is only hurting the game. So please, before you come here and start saying how messed up it is that you got yanked into the acid pit by some PT, try jumping out of the pit, if you get stunned try using a defensive cd. Try marking said OP class, and have your team burn them down. Most of the time there is a counter for whatever is being used against you, but you may have to take a bit of time to figure it out.