1.3: Mercenary DPS still the weakest PvP class

[N_inja]

I think Bioware is seriously over-estimating the value of Heavy Armor in PvP. Mercenaries will still be easily killed after this patch just like they are now.

[Niil]

No interrupt. No reliable snare. Ranged class. A very large part of the rotation in either pyro or arsenal requires cast times, though pyro isn't so dependent upon power shot. Prolific interrupts everywhere else. Poor class in pvp.

[Ifrit]

wow I can't believe this is all they are offering to "fix" merc for pvp. It is honestly a slap in the face. These devs have no idea what they are doing to balance pvp.

[clearsighted]

What do you expect when Gabe from Mythic is in charge?

[rotatorkuf]

What do you expect when Gabe from Mythic is in charge?

 

LOL!

 

they messed up shadow warriors / white lions so bad in that game

 

i feel like merc is closely heading that direction

[N_inja]

I'd be really interested to know what kind of role the development team envisions for the Mercenary DPS class. From the available abilities I just don't see what unique role the Mercenary is supposed to fill. Snipers and Sorcerers can do everything the Merc can do, but a whole lot better.

[TheHeat]

I'd be really interested to know what kind of role the development team envisions for the Mercenary DPS class. From the available abilities I just don't see what unique role the Mercenary is supposed to fill. Snipers and Sorcerers can do everything the Merc can do, but a whole lot better.

 

Right. I feel like they've been factoring in our ability to heal when balancing our class. That's a perfectly fine idea if it wasn't for the fact that, unless specc'd into, our heals are practically non existent in PvP if something is beating on us (discounting the occasional activation of Power Surge to cast an instant heal, which is really no better than using a combat potion).

 

As said before, even with our highly mobile Pyrotech tree we're still more dependent on channeled/cast abilities than we should be. That paired with our relatively middle of the road dps and lack of an interrupt makes us probably the worst class in the game for PvP dps. We just don't really bring a whole lot to the table as far as PvP dps goes and I honestly wouldn't blame someone if they picked a Powertech, Marauder, Sorcerer, Assassin or even Operative over me for rated Warzones. There's literally nothing we bring to the table that those listed classes can't do better.

Edited June 7, 2012 by TheHeat

[DkSharktooth]

My Opinion On What Mercs Need To Be Viable For PvP:

Merc CC/Utility.

-Rocket punch should come with a root after-effect

-10M range interupt at least (Interrupt meaning lockout, not rocket-punch "interrupt")

-Jetboost roots you in place for 2 seconds

-Concussion missile is instant cast with talents for dps specs, every other class has this instant cast on 1-3 targets

-Unload needs to be non-interruptable just like marauders ravege and or root the target in place for its duration

-Tracer Missile Needs to Apply a burning dot (optional)

-Pyro Mercs are to easily cleansable by healers. Cleanse the fire dot and laugh at them. Sniper dot isn't cleansable, why is BHs cleansable? We need fire dot to do railshot...it's retarded.

-We are interrupted just to easily and can fall behind in damage 1v1 very quickly, even with attempts to fake cast, we don't have much hope unless we use a knockback to run behind an obsticle and heal, then do 1-2 casts, knockback, run, heal. We are 2 much of a liability against players who use interrupts frequently.

 

Why does a light armor class --- sorcs dps -- have higher survivability than a heavy armor class mercs?

They pre-bubble + re-bubble when their 1st bubble breaks + interrupt slow, instant cast cc and sprint heal.

Mercs cannot do anything like this, or snipers who can root and run.

 

Substitute the ability to off-heal a little bit for doing alot less utility/damage? ***? We only heal to get our 2.5 medal or maybe like 2 heals after we kill someone till we get out of combat to recharge energy. If you even count swapping cylinders to auto attack heal a ball carrier for barely anything as a use of competitive utility, thats messed up, it takes like 3 seconds to cast swapping cylinders and then 3 seconds to swap back. Essentially, this class was just a knockback support, and they nerfed that in 1.2

 

Serious Question: Did BW fire the BH class designers or lock them in a dungeon or something? How is this class falling behind by so much?

Edited June 8, 2012 by DkSharktooth

[TheHeat]

My Opinion On What Mercs Need To Be Viable For PvP:

-We are interrupted just to easily and can fall behind in damage 1v1 very quickly, even with attempts to fake cast, we don't have much hope unless we use a knockback to run behind an obsticle and heal, then do 1-2 casts, knockback, run, heal. We are 2 much of a liability against players who use interrupts frequently.

 

If you're actually serious about PvPing and you sincerely believe this then you need to go Pyrotech. There is absolutely no reason to be Arsenal in PvP right now for dps. As I've said many times before, the lack of mobility essentially makes you only good against players who aren't paying attention. Most players who have any idea of what they're doing will know how to shut down arsenal.

[Henu]

My Opinion On What Mercs Need To Be Viable For PvP:

Merc CC/Utility.

-Rocket punch should come with a root after-effect (set up your tree and you can slow them down after knock backs)

-10M range interupt at least .. rocket punch?

-Jetboost roots you in place for 2 seconds ... slow down, see above

-Concussion missile is instant cast with talents for dps specs, every other class has this instant cast on 1-3 targets

-Unload needs to be non-interruptable just like marauders ravege and or root the target in place for its duration.. not needed on range class

-Tracer Missile Needs to Apply a burning dot (optional).... meh maybe, will give you this one.

-We are interrupted just to easily and can fall behind in damage 1v1 very quickly, even with attempts to fake cast, we don't have much hope unless we use a knockback to run behind an obsticle and heal, then do 1-2 casts, knockback, run, heal. We are 2 much of a liability against players who use interrupts frequently... what i'd like to see here is TM to have a spot in the tree to shave cast time too 1second.

 

Why does a light armor class --- sorcs dps -- have higher survivability than a heavy armor class mercs?

They pre-bubble + re-bubble when their 1st bubble breaks + interrupt slow, instant cast cc and sprint heal.

Mercs cannot do anything like this, or snipers who can root and run... your right our armor value is low.. we drop very quickly..

 

Substitute the ability to off-heal a little bit for doing alot less utility/damage? ***? We only heal to get our 2.5 medal or maybe like 2 heals after we kill someone till we get out of combat to recharge energy. If you even count swapping cylinders to auto attack heal a ball carrier for barely anything as a use of competitive utility, thats messed up, it takes like 3 seconds to cast swapping cylinders and then 3 seconds to swap back. Essentially, this class was just a knockback support, and they nerfed that in 1.2... use that thingy to that removes cast time, most effective on your self heal.

 

just add my 2c

[Corben]

Right, just rolling belly up and say got Pyro doesnt realy help with getting a fix for Arsenal. Keep getting BW's attention instead with viable discussions abot whats wrong, how to fix it etc. 100% of those who play Merc's already know that they have an option to resepc.....

[AshlaBoga]

I know the post is about PvP, but even in PvE Mercs have a disadvantage. Why? Because some boss abilities will One Hit Kill you if you don't have an interrupt. While this might not seem that bad sometimes the ability will outstrip the tank's interrupt cooldown (example: The Thing That Came From the Stars) in which case the DPS need to be able to interrupt as well as the tanks. Why on earth would any class have no interrupt? You can't stun or knockback a World Boss, so you NEED interrupts, CCs don't cut it some of the time. I left my Merc after completing Act I, I'll go back to him when they fix this issue.

[Sookster]

The lack of interrupt is highly overlooked by the devs, we're not allowed to take a merc into Lost Island unless it's a healer. There's many reasons why merc should get an interrupt, rocket punch and jet boost aren't acceptable.

[Enkaizu]

The lack of interrupt is highly overlooked by the devs, we're not allowed to take a merc into Lost Island unless it's a healer. There's many reasons why merc should get an interrupt, rocket punch and jet boost aren't acceptable.

 

All tanks and all Dps have interrupts except for merc of course and I've dps'd through Lost Island multiple times. It's not that big of an issue unless BOTH dps are mercs.

[Splaktar]

All tanks and all Dps have interrupts except for merc of course and I've dps'd through Lost Island multiple times. It's not that big of an issue unless BOTH dps are mercs.

 

I've run some FPs with 2 mercs and had major problems including not being able to beat content that is trivial with a non-merc DPS. I've also had a lot of other instances where I felt like I really failed the group and let everyone down due to my lack of an interrupt.

 

It is a major hole in the class in PVE irregardless of PVP!

[T-Assassin]

i know there are many complaints about Merc PvP, and i agree with most, but i usually do quite well in PvP, as i have always stated. Merc/PT of course (Arsenal is just terrible)

 

i've heard the naysayers accuse me of being on a crappy server, fighting bads, etc.

 

well, i was pretty anxious to see how i would do post server merges, with 300+ people on the fleet and a large batch of new opponents.

 

i was pleasantly surprised. 12 matches(2 solo q), 8 wins 4 loses (which we lost a VS that we opened more doors...idk?!!). my K/D ratio was EASILY 40 : 1. i topped DPS in all but 1 match (we got ROLLED by pubs), and was mid to top in objectives and medals.

 

i solo'd multiple SW/JK's that thought i would be an easy kill...boy, did that make me laugh...especially, the WH marauder the jumped me at 70% in the middle of NC, and he got me to 35% (i healed and stuff) when he blew up...

 

but, i only had problems with 2 people..1 marauder, he played his class well, that solo i couldn't get him <30%...2 times. and a smuggler dps spec...altho he was guarded and teamed w/ a JK DPS....he just did good dps and stealthed out, used los and grabbed the gd heals b4 i could)

 

so, while i won't say Merc is fine, well played classes can (and should) beat me 1v1...but, it's not a 1v1 game...

 

i killed healers and dps with little problems, and OWNED the middle in all my HB matches.

 

here's my best HB:

 

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/268/screenshot2012061400275.jpg/

Edited June 14, 2012 by T-Assassin

[Macroecon]

i know there are many complaints about Merc PvP, and i agree with most, but i usually do quite well in PvP, as i have always stated. Merc/PT of course (Arsenal is just terrible)

 

Player skill is still the biggest factor in determining success in SWTOR PvP. With gearing coming in second. But when you place equally skilled players in comparable gear together, it's clear the Merc dps falls behind PT dps (the easiest comparison to make), falls behind Sorc dps and falls behind melee dps. No top quality player will honestly dispute this.

 

It remains to be seen how much the mini-buff to Mercs in 1.3 will change that relationship. But right now in a high scoring, static Voidstar match where the Merc scores around 750k in damage, the Sorc will score about 850k and add in another 60-80k in heals. I'm guessing that the 1.3 mini-buffs will cut that difference in about half. Time will tell.

[revial]

I can probably count on four hands the amount of times I played a teeth-clenchingingly close game in the last six months.

 

I think this mythical idea that in some ideal world where everyone is as equally great as you are is a bunch of hogwash.

 

Now, don't get me wrong. I strongly believe Merc/Commando pve dps is lacking relative to the other dps classes, though I equally believe there is no content that actually requires you to have top-of-the-line dps, making this more of a theoretical rant, than a real one.

 

In pvp, I continue to see my fair share of well-played Mercs/Commandos doing just fine, whether in pre-mades or pugs. Though, I totally agree that they need an interrupt. Even before any nerfs, I thought they needed one.

 

As things stand now, the idea that you're always playing perfect games where everyone in the game is on the top of their game is a complete myth. If you're doing horribly as any class, in the current ecosystem that warzones exist in, it has nothing to do with the class at all.

 

Now, when 8-man ranked warzones actually make it live, it may be another story. I'm fairly convinced that players will fall into three categories:

 

Those who just put together random groups without a serious care about winning, just to get some ranked commendations, even if it means afking at their goal line all game. These types of players shouldn't give two ***** on their class' effectiveness, though strangely, they tend to be the most vocal in that regard, despite not having the skill level to realize it.

 

Those who put together static groups with a real intent to win. Due to the nature of a serious full pre-made vs full pre-made, I can already predict Sorc/Sage will be incredibly rare as heals due to their weak single target heals relative to the other two classes, and it'll be all Ops and Mercs, putting a lot of pressure on both Op and Merc players to play heals if they fall into this category of player, regardless of their dps role's effectiveness.

 

And, lastly, the third group of players who don't realize how horrible they are, but still have a fantasy of competing with the good players (ie: unlike the first group, this group tries, even though they still end up losing most games). In this case, the skill level is too low for any class' inherent strengths and weaknesses to matter.

 

TL;DR: Merc's effective dps in pvp is meaningless because you're either going to be pigeonholed into healing on a serious team, or playing at a level where you can get away with spamming tracer spam against baddies.

[Sookster]

As of right now on live my pyro merc seems to do a good job of damage in pvp, post 1.3 I think it'll do better due to changes to advance targeting (armorpen to unload & railshot). I literally killed a gunslinger in seconds last night (I think he was wearing recruit gear) when I tossed TD, railshot, unload, railshot again and he died- didn't even give me a chance to put fusion missile on him.

 

Keep ******** on pyro merc spec, and I'll keep ******** on you.

Edited June 14, 2012 by Sookster

[T-Assassin]

Player skill is still the biggest factor in determining success in SWTOR PvP. With gearing coming in second. But when you place equally skilled players in comparable gear together, it's clear the Merc dps falls behind PT dps (the easiest comparison to make), falls behind Sorc dps and falls behind melee dps. No top quality player will honestly dispute this.

 

that really sums up how i feel about Merc as well.

 

but, it is nice when you get one of those really good players and things go your way.

 

every class that gave me issues i did wind up killing 1v1. the jk/sw that initally gave me issues, i wound up killing and he got me to 80%. (i did rakata adrenal/relic IM, RS, TD, UL, ED, RS, FM, RaS...dead...)

 

like i said, merc is not fine, but very capable!! and i was LOL'ing at all the warriors that jumped me...seriously, every WZ i fought every JK/SW.

 

if i were to do the math, roughly off the top of my head...i died probably 8 times in 12 matches...and had AT LEAST 400 kills. (the 54-0 HB helped my 4-3 NC disaster )

 

but, i have a VG...and i kill things even faster on him...i just gotta pay more attention on my merc.

Edited June 14, 2012 by T-Assassin

[T-Assassin]

I can probably count on four hands the amount of times I played a teeth-clenchingingly close game in the last six months.

 

Those who put together static groups with a real intent to win. Due to the nature of a serious full pre-made vs full pre-made, I can already predict Sorc/Sage will be incredibly rare as heals due to their weak single target heals relative to the other two classes, and it'll be all Ops and Mercs, putting a lot of pressure on both Op and Merc players to play heals if they fall into this category of player, regardless of their dps role's effectiveness.

 

TL;DR: Merc's effective dps in pvp is meaningless because you're either going to be pigeonholed into healing on a serious team, or playing at a level where you can get away with spamming tracer spam against baddies.

 

anyone that would pass MY Merc, for ANY other DPS in PvE OR PvP would be making quite a *****. (using old words is fun )

 

out of my 12 matches last night, i doubled the next closest persons DPS 5 times. DOUBLED...u see that HB? nobody got out of the middle alive, except me.

 

PvE, i can solo most melee mobs/bosses, that do not have a snare (i've killed every planet champion solo and all but 4 or 5 world bosses, solo) and DESTROY multiple mob encounters...i pretty much tank BT, unless i'm in a pug...then i let the tanks do their thing

 

i'm really not trying to brag or boast, just being honest.

 

and, honestly, i can do better DPS on my VG/AS due to cgc proc and IP spam, recharge cells. let people sleep on power shot. it's pretty awesome.

 

skill > rest.

[T-Assassin]

As of right now on live my pyro merc seems to do a good job of damage in pvp, post 1.3 I think it'll do better due to changes to advance targeting (armorpen to unload & railshot). I literally killed a gunslinger in seconds last night (I think he was wearing recruit gear) when I tossed TD, railshot, unload, railshot again and he died- didn't even give me a chance to put fusion missile on him.

 

Keep ******** on pyro merc spec, and I'll keep ******** on you.

 

i love the "there's a free kill merc" dudes...i really wish you coulda seen the SW/JK RUNNING from me!! yes, running...i had a couple guys in vent w/ me...we were loving it..

 

and i'll tell ya this...i had a sniper follow me around, we killed EVERYONE and EVERYTHING <5 seconds. or just CC'd on def CD's.

 

also, grouped w/ a DPS jugg tore schizer up!!

 

again, i'm not sayin merc is "fine", but way too many people underestimate it's ACTUAL effectiveness...

 

here's an example...me vs. that pesky WH VG/AS.

 

he IR, HiB, AP, IP as he charged in. i IM, RS, TD, RaS(kiting)...

 

i JB'd him away before he could SS me...followed by TSO, Rapid Scan, rakata stim/KO, WHILE i was kiting, jumped over a sandbag wall thingy. (by the tents in NC)

 

so, we were even in HP thru our initial burst. then, i'm at full HP in <3sec, and he is ~70% (TD is about to go off)...

 

he yanks me back, i insta-stun him...i was expecting that...

 

RP, RaS(kiting), PS, RS(kiting), FM, RaS(kiting). when he died i was 98% HP and about 20m away. while kiting, i was using terrain, jumping over and around...

 

i really like the challenge of 1v1, and love a good fight...

[RoJackal]

Pyrotech Mercenary combat logs from PTS server and from live server :

 

 

PTS server :

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/combatlog/7e894755-29bc-42d3-a55a-d426ecbd6dcd/player/1#d=0,t=1,b=1

Live server :

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/combatlog/6c840be1-6f3b-4749-a24c-e1444ed0b8d3/player/1#d=0,t=1,b=1

 

You can see there is a small difference from 30% armor penetration on Rail Shot and Unload, but it's not enough to bring the Pyro Mercs in line with other dps classes

 

 

@T-Assassin

Please stop trolling dude.

Post combat logs which can backup your claims.

Don't post your feelings about PTS warzones damage/dps, there are a lot of factors to consider (bad gear, bad skills, etc).

Edited June 14, 2012 by RoJackal

[azhrione]

Pyrotech Mercenary combat logs from PTS server and from live server :

 

 

PTS server :

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/combatlog/7e894755-29bc-42d3-a55a-d426ecbd6dcd/player/1#d=0,t=1,b=1

Live server :

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/combatlog/6c840be1-6f3b-4749-a24c-e1444ed0b8d3/player/1#d=0,t=1,b=1

 

You can see there is a small difference from 30% armor penetration on Rail Shot and Unload, but it's not enough to bring the Pyro Mercs in line with other dps classes

 

Those numbers seem very low, how were you equiped/buffed when you did these?

[T-Assassin]

Pyrotech Mercenary combat logs from PTS server and from live server :

 

 

PTS server :

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/combatlog/7e894755-29bc-42d3-a55a-d426ecbd6dcd/player/1#d=0,t=1,b=1

Live server :

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/combatlog/6c840be1-6f3b-4749-a24c-e1444ed0b8d3/player/1#d=0,t=1,b=1

 

You can see there is a small difference from 30% armor penetration on Rail Shot and Unload, but it's not enough to bring the Pyro Mercs in line with other dps classes

 

 

@T-Assassin

Please stop trolling dude.

Post combat logs which can backup your claims.

Don't post your feelings about PTS warzones damage/dps, there are a lot of factors to consider (bad gear, bad skills, etc).

 

@ you.

 

i've posted EVERYTHING supporting my numbers, performance, and playstyle...

 

the only thing i haven't brought in the forums is video evidence...

 

for anyone that thinks i am trolling, i have one HONEST thing to say to you.

 

have you ever considered it is you?

 

i come in here attempting to help the Merc community...i explain my playstyle, rotations, how to 1v1 opponents, etc. and you call me a troll...

 

maybe i'll just stop posting here...

 

p.s. and, i can see you lack reading comprehension. i wasn't speaking on PTS performance...i'm talking live...i didn't come right out and say that, but i did say "well, i was pretty anxious to see how i would do post server merges, with 300+ people on the fleet and a large batch of new opponents." which should have been easy to understand and comprehend.

Edited June 14, 2012 by T-Assassin