1.3 Maras/Sents no nerfs?

[UGLYMRJ]

Almost full campaign BIS custom modded Sorc in our guild that's been farming HM EC and NiM KP tops out at around 1700 dps single target.

 

Our marauder in the same gear STARTS at 1800 dps.

 

This is on non-gimmick fights.

 

You're incorrect, regardless of how Maras do in PVP, they are the King of pVE dps.

 

Pretty sure we're on the PvP section of the forums... just sayin'

[UGLYMRJ]

I think that everyone that QQs about Sents/Maras should level one up to 50 and then go out into real world PVP and see how they do.. it will be funny to see how most change their tune about the nerfs.

 

FINAL NOTE: Take the time you would have creating a QQ thread and learn to pvp against classes that beat you. Learn their strengths and weaknesses.. and above all, learn your own strengths and weaknesses. If we had more people that actually learned their classes and how to use that class to beat other classes then there would be a lot less QQ in the forums.

 

Thank you.

 

Before you say.. Oh he plays a Sent.. I also have a 50 BH, 50 Sage, 50 Mara, 50 Scoundrel. Maybe I am good because I have played most classes to 50, know their strengths and weaknesses and have played both sides of the Mara/Sent to 50 (Lots of hours invested learning how to play).. Maybe that sent that beat you was me.

 

THIS....

 

I've been preaching the same thing for weeks... They don't listen. They WANT to complain. Your logic might be better spent elsewhere.

 

You know what I do when I have a difficulty with a certain class... I roll one. Problem solved.

 

Couldn't agree with you more dude... the duels with the guild def help too. It's funny how you can seperate the good from the bad without even playing someone.... ain't it? LOL

[IHate]

Here is one possible conspiracy theory to why there is no Mara/Sent nerf:

 

BW bases their changes on the actual data from every single wz that they have access to and no one else does instead of basing decisions on the volume of QQ in the forums.

The problem is directly in your statement. Basing changes off of overall numbers is not a good way to judge actual game play. While overall damage numbers might be similar that doesn't mean that a Marauder won't rip through a player in one sec and have no use of spamming damage like the rest of us. Gameplay needs to be considered, not just reports of wz damage or flashpoint damage at the end of a day.

This is my biggest complaint with this game at this moment. The numbers aren't far off, but the actual gameplay is bad. What we see in most wzs is teams full of certain professions, just like we were seeing teams with a bunch of Sorcs, etc before.

Everytime this argument is brought up absolutely dumb players argue their side like every situation is dealt with in a vacuum. You rarely enter combat like you might in a duel where everything is available to you. You may in PVE, but in PVP without viewing it in the heat of the battle you are doing the game harm. You can deny why numbers are falling off all day long, but I can directly point to close to half the players I started this game with as friends that have become bored with the regrind of gear and the way pvp works atm.

[SinnedWill]

Why on earth does a melee class have better defensive cool downs then a tank?

Because they are melee. Because they have to build up for their attacks. Because they're too dam squishy to do any real damage within a single life-span without them. And tankassin cooldowns are better, IMO (combined with their 21% Internal/Elemental Damage reduction + 16% base dodge and armor rating giving ~5% less than other thank specs) - I understand it can be argued that Undying Rage is better than Force Shroud (in terms of single-application effectiveness, and I'd still say force shroud is better even for single-use application if you really know the class you are fighting well enough to know when to pop shroud) - one thing everyone can agree on shroud being better due to its shortened cooldown (yes, gear set bonused rage spec maras can get UR down to 45s, but if you want to be a smash-o-holic, you're best off as rage jugg). UR can be countered and completely circumvented (via timely stuns, roots, cc, etc.) - force shroud cannot (so unless you can dish out big weapon damage against an assassin using force shroud that happens to be silly enough to face-tank your ravage or refuses to LoS your sniper's ambush, then yes, for the players that treat shroud as if it were COMPLETE god-mode, then they will still take damage - if you stack defense chance or pop deflection with force shroud, then yes you certainly CAN come close to god-mode, but I'll RARELY ever use both at once).

 

And why do their (if spec'd) crit bleeds heal them for more the tankassins did did prior to 1.3 (and getting better)?

Hmm, annihilation marauder's heals are 2% healed per tick that crits - berserk can't be up indefinitely, and only lasts for 6 ticks, which will guarantee 12% healed - when berserk isn't up, it comes down to crit chance and luck as if they were a madness sorc relying on DoT crits. The reason I say crit chance AND LUCK is because I have gotten my sorcerer's force crit chance up to 48.14% and I still see many occasions in which I'll go 14-15 ticks without a single crit - also, DoT's can be removed. HD'd force lightning is 12% healing recived and you're pretty much gauranteed to get a dark charge proc in while you're using it additionally. A dps geared tankassin who stacks power can get his dark charge proc healing value to exceed 2% max health (even with pvp trauma debuff) - yes, HD'd force lightning can get interrupted if stunned or kb'd during its channel, so it works best when used with full resolve.

All-in-all, tankassin self-healing is EASILY better than annihilation mara's self-healing (which is why tankassins still usually have more healing done in wz's compared to annihilation marauders despite the fact that annihilation mara DoT's will also heal teammates during berserk).

 

Why does their stealth that lasts up to 6 seconds if spec'd perform better then assassin/shadow and op/scound abilities such as blackout?

I assume you mean force cloak, not blackout. Also, force camo (mara's stealth) is not BETTER than force cloak, it's different. Force Cloak takes you completely out of combat which grants a far more diverse array of tactics which you can employ. Force Camo (for maras) will reduce damage taken by 1/2, and happens to be on a shorter CD (which is why I'm assuming most people think it is better - yes, these are nice, but I wouldn't trade force camo from my tankassin for it due to how/when I use it (i.e. I can pop force camo, then mind trap a target that has already used a stunbreak during a fight and just seethe myself back to nearly full health before they're free - that's just one example of possible applications).

[L-RANDLE]

I look forward to going up against them... \

 

But really... I have a hard time believing that 8 mara/sents can beat a capable balanced team.

Agreed, but in general, even with the changes to relics and adrenals, they still are OP'd from a mitigation standpoint. We all could use relics and adrenals. Now we all can't. So nothing really changed. They have at least three or four attacks that currently hit for 1.8-2K on short CD's which is still higher than most classes. Now that TTK has "increased", healers can keep them up longer/medpaks are unchanged, and they are popping UDR/GBF. SO really nothing has changed.

 

The only real counters by Mar/Sen is that the class has no utility or "need" those mitigation items.

You don't because offense is your defense. Changing UDR/GBF to 3MIN CD would have been sufficient enough. No I don't know if any class besides Mar/Sent/BH can out DPS the TTK change... Seems alot like 1.2 to me..

[SinnedWill]

I think that everyone that QQs about Sents/Maras should level one up to 50 and then go out into real world PVP and see how they do.. it will be funny to see how most change their tune about the nerfs.

 

Fact #1: A Mara or Sent (Or any class actually) played by a better player is going to beat you.

Fact #2: Quality pvpers don't QQ about other classes beating them. They dual their friends, learn their weaknesses and then use it when fighting against that class in warzones.

Fact #3: Since this thread was started by a QQ'er then obviously they are not good at PVP and other classes beating them should hold no merit.

Fact #4: There are more bad Sents/Maras playing then there are good ones. I play a Sent and I have no problem beating another Sent/Mara while still maintaining 75% of my health in a 1v1. So how does that work? Our characters have equal abilities?!

Fact #5: I like putting (Fact) in here since everyone else is throwing around fake facts and made up statistics.

 

FINAL NOTE: Take the time you would have creating a QQ thread and learn to pvp against classes that beat you. Learn their strengths and weaknesses.. and above all, learn your own strengths and weaknesses. If we had more people that actually learned their classes and how to use that class to beat other classes then there would be a lot less QQ in the forums.

 

Thank you.

 

Before you say.. Oh he plays a Sent.. I also have a 50 BH, 50 Sage, 50 Mara, 50 Scoundrel. Maybe I am good because I have played most classes to 50, know their strengths and weaknesses and have played both sides of the Mara/Sent to 50 (Lots of hours invested learning how to play).. Maybe that sent that beat you was me.

 

^^ Signed, verified, fully agree. No issues with countering maras/sents on any of my other toons since I have one as well (hell, I even learned how to counter them on my madness sorc. before actually playing my mara/sent) - you CAN learn how to counter them effectively if you fight them often enough - if one set of tactics resulted in a failure, try something else next time. Also, make sure you identify exactly which spec of mara/sent they are since they play differently - and learn to recognize their buff icons so that you can counter them effectively (spec is determined by stance - Juyo = Annihilation, Ataru = Carnage, Rage = Shii-Cho -- Big damage proc buffs will be: Annihilation = Deadly Sabre, Carnage = Gore, Rage = Shockwave - recognizing these icons tells you when they can dish out their most painful damage - their damage is mediocre at best without them - note that some are more easily countered than others, however).

[Xerain]

The problem is directly in your statement. Basing changes off of overall numbers is not a good way to judge actual game play. While overall damage numbers might be similar that doesn't mean that a Marauder won't rip through a player in one sec and have no use of spamming damage like the rest of us. Gameplay needs to be considered, not just reports of wz damage or flashpoint damage at the end of a day.

This is my biggest complaint with this game at this moment. The numbers aren't far off, but the actual gameplay is bad. What we see in most wzs is teams full of certain professions, just like we were seeing teams with a bunch of Sorcs, etc before.

Everytime this argument is brought up absolutely dumb players argue their side like every situation is dealt with in a vacuum. You rarely enter combat like you might in a duel where everything is available to you. You may in PVE, but in PVP without viewing it in the heat of the battle you are doing the game harm. You can deny why numbers are falling off all day long, but I can directly point to close to half the players I started this game with as friends that have become bored with the regrind of gear and the way pvp works atm.

 

I dont' know about you but on Port Nowhere it's only on the imperial side that i've seen a lot of people reroll other classes because ones got nerfed. On the republic side of things i still see plenty of commandos, sages, scoundrels, and for some reason plenty of guardians. Those players still show that the classes can do well in a pvp environment despite their so called "Huge nerfs".

 

Pvp works just fine and is a great team play, sure a class needs a little tweaking but otherwise there's nothing to complain about.

[Xerain]

^^ Signed, verified, fully agree. No issues with countering maras/sents on any of my other toons since I have one as well (hell, I even learned how to counter them on my madness sorc. before actually playing my mara/sent) - you CAN learn how to counter them effectively if you fight them often enough - if one set of tactics resulted in a failure, try something else next time. Also, make sure you identify exactly which spec of mara/sent they are since they play differently - and learn to recognize their buff icons so that you can counter them effectively (spec is determined by stance - Juyo = Annihilation, Ataru = Carnage, Rage = Shii-Cho -- Big damage proc buffs will be: Annihilation = Deadly Sabre, Carnage = Gore, Rage = Shockwave - recognizing these icons tells you when they can dish out their most painful damage - their damage is mediocre at best without them - note that some are more easily countered than others, however).

 

What was said in the bold, If you're a serious pvp'er you should be doing those things for all the classes that you can. If a class doesn't have a little icon to tell you what spec they are watch for what animations do what and what moves they're casing so you know what to do.

[Xerain]

Agreed, but in general, even with the changes to relics and adrenals, they still are OP'd from a mitigation standpoint. We all could use relics and adrenals. Now we all can't. So nothing really changed. They have at least three or four attacks that currently hit for 1.8-2K on short CD's which is still higher than most classes. Now that TTK has "increased", healers can keep them up longer/medpaks are unchanged, and they are popping UDR/GBF. SO really nothing has changed.

 

The only real counters by Mar/Sen is that the class has no utility or "need" those mitigation items.

You don't because offense is your defense. Changing UDR/GBF to 3MIN CD would have been sufficient enough. No I don't know if any class besides Mar/Sent/BH can out DPS the TTK change... Seems alot like 1.2 to me..

 

What are you talking about to the area i highlighted?!?!?! What spec? 31/31/31?!?!

[SeloDaoC]

Its funny the only ones defending mara/sents are either mara/sents or snipers

 

In PvE i have no idea, but in PvP, they were op in 1.1 beeing played by those that actually knew *** they were doing, and became even more op in 1.2 but now everyone and their dogs can faceroll with them

[Phlem]

THIS....

 

I've been preaching the same thing for weeks... They don't listen. They WANT to complain. Your logic might be better spent elsewhere.

 

You know what I do when I have a difficulty with a certain class... I roll one. Problem solved.

 

Couldn't agree with you more dude... the duels with the guild def help too. It's funny how you can seperate the good from the bad without even playing someone.... ain't it? LOL

 

I did, I have a 50 marauder and I quit PvP'ing with him shortly after 1.2 because it was a joke how EZmode it was once your got your rotation down.

[UGLYMRJ]

Agreed, but in general, even with the changes to relics and adrenals, they still are OP'd from a mitigation standpoint. We all could use relics and adrenals. Now we all can't. So nothing really changed. They have at least three or four attacks that currently hit for 1.8-2K on short CD's which is still higher than most classes. Now that TTK has "increased", healers can keep them up longer/medpaks are unchanged, and they are popping UDR/GBF. SO really nothing has changed.

 

The only real counters by Mar/Sen is that the class has no utility or "need" those mitigation items.

You don't because offense is your defense. Changing UDR/GBF to 3MIN CD would have been sufficient enough. No I don't know if any class besides Mar/Sent/BH can out DPS the TTK change... Seems alot like 1.2 to me..

 

I never said anything changed or should change with mara/sent's...

 

And out DPS'ing comes down to player skill... these arguments give me a headache. I saw a Smuggler consistently putting up near 200k more damage than any other player in the WZ's. Both teams were made up of mostly premades and people on my server that are far above average players. This smuggler handed me my *** against my marauder a few more times than I did him.

 

Did I jump on the forums and call for nerfs? No, I think dude is a beast and I paid attention to what he was doing so I could learn from it on both sides.

 

Balance will NEVER be perfect in an MMO.... NEVER!!!!! It's impossible... I think it's pretty damn good right now and the changes in 1.3 make a lot sense to me. It all comes down to L2P.

 

What I've been saying for weeks as far as PT's, marauders, tankassins and a number of other classes and guess what? According to the patch notes BW agrees with me or vice versa.... however you want to look at it.

 

Anyways, all just opinion. Seriously part of me was hoping we would get a nerf simply because the forums have become so repetitive and annoying with all the nerf herders that I would almost rather be working at this point. There's nothing constructive here anymore. Just a lot of complaints and unfounded claims based on a very linear view of what limited statistics people have. (their experience)

 

To make it worse... not one person here will convince another one to believe what they believe. The nerf posts are such a huge waste of time and are not constructive in any way. The game is so complex that it's way too esy to twist facts and numbers in your favor to defend one persons ongoing arguments.

 

Sorry, I turned a simple reply into a rant about 70% of the forum population... it's seriously getting old tho.

[UGLYMRJ]

I did, I have a 50 marauder and I quit PvP'ing with him shortly after 1.2 because it was a joke how EZmode it was once your got your rotation down.

 

I'm sure you did... and if you went to war I'm sure you'd rather have a 9mm pistol instead of an M4A1 Carbine.

 

Have fun with that.

[Xerain]

Its funny the only ones defending mara/sents are either mara/sents or snipers

 

In PvE i have no idea, but in PvP, they were op in 1.1 beeing played by those that actually knew *** they were doing, and became even more op in 1.2 but now everyone and their dogs can faceroll with them

 

too bad nothing has changed to make them faceroll... That's what you don't get, it's been the same class since like beta in september

[Phlem]

Because they are melee. Because they have to build up for their attacks. Because they're too dam squishy to do any real damage within a single life-span without them. And tankassin cooldowns are better, IMO (combined with their 21% Internal/Elemental Damage reduction + 16% base dodge and armor rating giving ~5% less than other thank specs) - I understand it can be argued that Undying Rage is better than Force Shroud (in terms of single-application effectiveness, and I'd still say force shroud is better even for single-use application if you really know the class you are fighting well enough to know when to pop shroud) - one thing everyone can agree on shroud being better due to its shortened cooldown (yes, gear set bonused rage spec maras can get UR down to 45s, but if you want to be a smash-o-holic, you're best off as rage jugg). UR can be countered and completely circumvented (via timely stuns, roots, cc, etc.) - force shroud cannot (so unless you can dish out big weapon damage against an assassin using force shroud that happens to be silly enough to face-tank your ravage or refuses to LoS your sniper's ambush, then yes, for the players that treat shroud as if it were COMPLETE god-mode, then they will still take damage - if you stack defense chance or pop deflection with force shroud, then yes you certainly CAN come close to god-mode, but I'll RARELY ever use both at once).

 

Hmm, annihilation marauder's heals are 2% healed per tick that crits - berserk can't be up indefinitely, and only lasts for 6 ticks, which will guarantee 12% healed - when berserk isn't up, it comes down to crit chance and luck as if they were a madness sorc relying on DoT crits. The reason I say crit chance AND LUCK is because I have gotten my sorcerer's force crit chance up to 48.14% and I still see many occasions in which I'll go 14-15 ticks without a single crit - also, DoT's can be removed. HD'd force lightning is 12% healing recived and you're pretty much gauranteed to get a dark charge proc in while you're using it additionally. A dps geared tankassin who stacks power can get his dark charge proc healing value to exceed 2% max health (even with pvp trauma debuff) - yes, HD'd force lightning can get interrupted if stunned or kb'd during its channel, so it works best when used with full resolve.

All-in-all, tankassin self-healing is EASILY better than annihilation mara's self-healing (which is why tankassins still usually have more healing done in wz's compared to annihilation marauders despite the fact that annihilation mara DoT's will also heal teammates during berserk).

 

 

I assume you mean force cloak, not blackout. Also, force camo (mara's stealth) is not BETTER than force cloak, it's different. Force Cloak takes you completely out of combat which grants a far more diverse array of tactics which you can employ. Force Camo (for maras) will reduce damage taken by 1/2, and happens to be on a shorter CD (which is why I'm assuming most people think it is better - yes, these are nice, but I wouldn't trade force camo from my tankassin for it due to how/when I use it (i.e. I can pop force camo, then mind trap a target that has already used a stunbreak during a fight and just seethe myself back to nearly full health before they're free - that's just one example of possible applications).

 

No I meant blackout because I was using it as an example from the other classes I listed. Marauders force cloak, although lasts for a max of 6 seconds doesn't break on dot damage, or randomly drop them out of stealth after 1 second like ops/scound assassins/shadows. Only someone lucky enough to hit them with an AE direct damage will break it early.

 

You did noting to justify why the defensive cool down are as powerfull as they are. If anything you explained why every class should have the same exact defensive cool downs. Your first paragraph has to be a joke, you cannot believe that Mara/sent's absurdly powerful defensive cool downs are warranted because you are "squishy". All melee classes defensive cool downs should be no better and no worse then any other melee classes defensive cool downs.

Edited June 7, 2012 by Phlem

[L-RANDLE]

I never said anything changed or should change with mara/sent's...

 

And out DPS'ing comes down to player skill... these arguments give me a headache. I saw a Smuggler consistently putting up near 200k more damage than any other player in the WZ's. Both teams were made up of mostly premades and people on my server that are far above average players. This smuggler handed me my *** against my marauder a few more times than I did him.

 

Did I jump on the forums and call for nerfs? No, I think dude is a beast and I paid attention to what he was doing so I could learn from it on both sides.

 

Balance will NEVER be perfect in an MMO.... NEVER!!!!! It's impossible... I think it's pretty damn good right now and the changes in 1.3 make a lot sense to me. It all comes down to L2P.

 

What I've been saying for weeks as far as PT's, marauders, tankassins and a number of other classes and guess what? According to the patch notes BW agrees with me or vice versa.... however you want to look at it.

 

Anyways, all just opinion. Seriously part of me was hoping we would get a nerf simply because the forums have become so repetitive and annoying with all the nerf herders that I would almost rather be working at this point. There's nothing constructive here anymore. Just a lot of complaints and unfounded claims based on a very linear view of what limited statistics people have. (their experience)

 

To make it worse... not one person here will convince another one to believe what they believe. The nerf posts are such a huge waste of time and are not constructive in any way. The game is so complex that it's way too esy to twist facts and numbers in your favor to defend one persons ongoing arguments.

 

Sorry, I turned a simple reply into a rant about 70% of the forum population... it's seriously getting old tho.

 

That is why a simple 3MIN CD would have been sufficient. You really don't need it at all, but since you have it, at least put it on a CD in line with most other DCD. It's a touch much....

[Phlem]

I'm sure you did... and if you went to war I'm sure you'd rather have a 9mm pistol instead of an M4A1 Carbine.

 

Have fun with that.

 

Actually I would, the 9mm wouldn't get jamed as easily.

 

Believe what you may, I love how people try to discredit people who have played marauders/sentinals the minute they agree with other classes that they are OP.

[UGLYMRJ]

RANDLE...

 

That idea isn't bad... I don't even think it's necessary but I would take it just to maybe get 10 more percent of the population talking about something else.

Edited June 7, 2012 by UGLYMRJ

[TheNotorius]

I did, I have a 50 marauder and I quit PvP'ing with him shortly after 1.2 because it was a joke how EZmode it was once your got your rotation down.

I did the same. It's a joke now, we'll see in the future if I'll return playing him (my other option to play as DPS is my operative, which isn't an option).

[SinnedWill]

I did, I have a 50 marauder and I quit PvP'ing with him shortly after 1.2 because it was a joke how EZmode it was once your got your rotation down.

 

Try again, now that people have gotten accustomed with countering them. I'll also assume that you're Annihilation specced. Since you haven't played your marauder since 1.2 you will also likely be behind in gear (unless you already had full BM). I play a carnage marauder (squishiest spec and also the easiest to counter its burst damage - the grind to BM/WH gear was NOT PRETTY - was taking ~15-22 deaths in long matches that we won and everyone else on the team only died 2-6 times). Annihilation is one of the most difficult marauder specs to counter, but if the enemy team has a good healer that actually removes DoT's from teammates, you'll find it hard for even a fully WH geared annihilation marauder to break 200k damage in a warzone. Healers on your server must have been awful and I'll waiger that people still didn't know how to counter marauders effectively last time you played it.

[UGLYMRJ]

Try again, now that people have gotten accustomed with countering them. I'll also assume that you're Annihilation specced. Since you haven't played your marauder since 1.2 you will also likely be behind in gear (unless you already had full BM). I play a carnage marauder (squishiest spec and also the easiest to counter its burst damage - the grind to BM/WH gear was NOT PRETTY - was taking ~15-22 deaths in long matches that we won and everyone else on the team only died 2-6 times). Annihilation is one of the most difficult marauder specs to counter, but if the enemy team has a good healer that actually removes DoT's from teammates, you'll find it hard for even a fully WH geared annihilation marauder to break 200k damage in a warzone. Healers on your server must have been awful and I'll waiger that people still didn't know how to counter marauders effectively last time you played it.

 

+1

 

They really aren't that hard to beat... I really don't get the hype.

 

L2P and pay attention.

[Superawesomerman]

too bad nothing has changed to make them faceroll... That's what you don't get, it's been the same class since like beta in september

 

1.1 watchman spec was way stronger ... 1.2 gear is ridiculously stronger. Guess which matters more!

[Superawesomerman]

In the end, in ranked objective based team play, combat will be better than watchman, simply because at high levels the dispelling of dots will gimp watchman damage too much. Also, the 80% sprint is way, way too useful.

[YanksfanJP]

No, you didn't prove anything at all- people have been saying that marauders need a nerf BUT Bioware will not nerf them because they love the class too much.

 

1.3 proved everyone right- BW refuses to nerf the only class that still has paying subs.

 

 

Trolololololol

[Xienive]

Remember Shadows/Sins were not touched in 1.2, and are this time after nothing changed about the class.