DawgPoundSwag Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=463539 Love the changes. What are your thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rymah Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 (edited) I absolutely love most of these changes, sure immortal spec lost the 6% damage buff from SSM but I'll take the +defense and aoe threat increase any day.* Overall I'm extremely happy with most of these changes and I think that this will help to address many issues juggernauts face in raids and flashpoints with indirect threat generation (not spamming taunts) while still making them a class that requires paying attention to play well. * = After looking at actual numbers from the PTS, I feel that the loss of damage from Crushing Blow in addition to the loss of the 6% melee damage boost from SSM is a bit much, I would strongly encourage that feedback be given to correct this issue so that we can improve the overall changes to the class. Edited June 7, 2012 by rymah Updating post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FalcoLombardi Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 I think they're pretty good. I wish the blade barricaed lasted a little longer but kept the same effect. But meh, what's 3%? I still want an Endure Pain and Enraged Defense change. And more defensive incentive in Immortal, switch the elemental damage reduction to Vengeance and 4% to all damage to Immortal and I'd be very happy along with the change to Endure Pain and Enraged Defense (Changes would be Endure Pain doesn't make you lose health unless you're over maximum health when it ends, which it would just go back down to maximum, and Enraged defense doesn't lower threat and put something in the Immortal tree to make it give like a 5-10% damage reduction) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthSpooky Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 All good except: "The damage dealt by Backhand has been reduced, but this ability no longer costs Rage to activate." Do not want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rymah Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 All good except: "The damage dealt by Backhand has been reduced, but this ability no longer costs Rage to activate." Do not want. It was 3 rage to use, now it's free...unless it was reduced by more than 20-25% this should not be an issue. Can anyone on the PTS please give us some numbers to compare before/after? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracosz Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 All good except: "The damage dealt by Backhand has been reduced, but this ability no longer costs Rage to activate." Do not want. They're trying to kill immortal DPS specs, which, with the changes to shadows, sort of makes sense. On the flip side, Juggernaut tanks will be a complete ***** to get off nodes with the way how the new crushing blow hits in an AoE. - I love the changes to single saber mastery, vengeance is going to have a lot of fun in the patch with 6% more damage. - The adrenal/relic changes hurt rage AGAIN, which I'm surprised didn't get addressed. Oh well (For those of you that didn't read, rakta adrenals can no longer be used in WZs and PvPrelics have had their stats made into passive stat. On-Use Relics cannot be used in wzs. In addition, the PvP Adrenal no longer gives a damage boost in PvP) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Masty Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 They're trying to kill immortal DPS specs, which, with the changes to shadows, sort of makes sense. On the flip side, Juggernaut tanks will be a complete ***** to get off nodes with the way how the new crushing blow hits in an AoE. - I love the changes to single saber mastery, vengeance is going to have a lot of fun in the patch with 6% more damage. - The adrenal/relic changes hurt rage AGAIN, which I'm surprised didn't get addressed. Oh well (For those of you that didn't read, rakta adrenals can no longer be used in WZs and PvPrelics have had their stats made into passive stat. On-Use Relics cannot be used in wzs. In addition, the PvP Adrenal no longer gives a damage boost in PvP) Doesn't single saber mastery already currently boost melee dmg by 2% per point? So for Vengenace Juggs the talent does not change at all, it just changed for Immortal and Rage specs. Also: re: immortal DPS specs I used to PVE Tank in the 18/23/0 spec and then queue for WZs and put on DPS gear and it fared pretty well. AFAIK that spec was better for both PVE and PVP tanking than a full immortal spec (better mitigation, more damage, more uptime on Force Scream/Sonic Barrier). Do you see that changing with this patch? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traestus Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 T - The adrenal/relic changes hurt rage AGAIN, which I'm surprised didn't get addressed. Oh well (For those of you that didn't read, rakta adrenals can no longer be used in WZs and PvPrelics have had their stats made into passive stat. On-Use Relics cannot be used in wzs. In addition, the PvP Adrenal no longer gives a damage boost in PvP) Rage Juggs can go sit on the sidelines with Concealment Ops, we can play pattycake together while Marauders run around murdering everyone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acherom Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 Rage Juggs can go sit on the sidelines with Concealment Ops, we can play pattycake together while Marauders run around murdering everyone Well in that case; best change ever! I'll have new friends to play with! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lordofdamornin Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 Not only did they make our class easier, but they have made tanking easier in general, now that it seems AE's no longer break CC's. I understand that a bad tank stops Group Finder groups in their tracks, and that easier tanking is arguably better for the community as a whole...but that doesn't stop me from being terribly disappointed. I'm not too excited about the change(s) to Crushing Blow, either, but I'll wait until I actually use it before I make any final judgements. Riôt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traestus Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 Well in that case; best change ever! I'll have new friends to play with! I'll bring cupcakes, we can have a party. I think the healing sorcs/sages will come if we invite them as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracosz Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 Doesn't single saber mastery already currently boost melee dmg by 2% per point? So for Vengenace Juggs the talent does not change at all, it just changed for Immortal and Rage specs. Also: re: immortal DPS specs I used to PVE Tank in the 18/23/0 spec and then queue for WZs and put on DPS gear and it fared pretty well. AFAIK that spec was better for both PVE and PVP tanking than a full immortal spec (better mitigation, more damage, more uptime on Force Scream/Sonic Barrier). Do you see that changing with this patch? You're right, carry on, misread it as saying an additional 2% >_>, oh well. Still, nothing too bad for vengeance =P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracosz Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 Doesn't single saber mastery already currently boost melee dmg by 2% per point? So for Vengenace Juggs the talent does not change at all, it just changed for Immortal and Rage specs. Also: re: immortal DPS specs I used to PVE Tank in the 18/23/0 spec and then queue for WZs and put on DPS gear and it fared pretty well. AFAIK that spec was better for both PVE and PVP tanking than a full immortal spec (better mitigation, more damage, more uptime on Force Scream/Sonic Barrier). Do you see that changing with this patch? 18/23 in PvP should still be fine because unstoppable is just that good. With the change to sonic barrier and the change to crushing blow, it's going to be interesting to see how everything balances out between the two. I'd hazard a guess at 18/23 being slightly better on the whole, but we'll see. It just doesn't look viable to run immortal in DPS gear anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subparhero Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 I absolutely love these changes, sure immortal spec lost the 6% damage buff from SSM but I'll take the +defense and aoe threat increase any day. Overall I'm extremely happy with these changes and I think that this will help to address many issues juggernauts face in raids and flashpoints with indirect threat generation (not spamming taunts) while still making them a class that requires paying attention to play well. Note that they reduced defense from Blade Barricade by 3%, so the Single Saber Mastery 3% defense is really just bringing us back to the same amount of defense as before. A bit overkill on threat generation, at the cost of a bit too much damage imo. i.e. they should have buffed our threat a bit less without touching our dps. I suspect pvp is the reason for the overall damage decrease in immortal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KurtDunn Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 I've seen various hybrid builds that go into Vengeance/Vigilance more than Defense for increased survivability, and I always considered them semi-viable, if not for the higher threat that Guardian slash provides. With its damage being lowered in 1.3, and Soresu stance's threat increasing to 100% (from 50%), I see that as less of an issue. Is there any real incentive to not going hybrid tank spec now? In operations in particular, I don't see many pulls that absolutely require ****** AoE aggro, that's more found in hardmode flashpoints. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSDx Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 As a 31/7/3 Immortal Jugg in PvE and PvP I'm not happy what DPS I have is getting nerfed. Where are the long overdue Mara/Sent nerfs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorgothQuick Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 Do not like the change of Unleashed - Juggernauts have had their CC breaker cd reduction talent effectively removed, whereas the other tanks still have theirs (or am I wrong?). If the other classes still have theirs why was ours removed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rymah Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 As a 31/7/3 Immortal Jugg in PvE and PvP I'm not happy what DPS I have is getting nerfed. Where are the long overdue Mara/Sent nerfs? Adjustments to bring Marauders/Sentinels into balance probably are needed but considering all they are is dps, they really should outperform Juggernauts/Guardians in that role. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSDx Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 Adjustments to bring Marauders/Sentinels into balance probably are needed but considering all they are is dps, they really should outperform Juggernauts/Guardians in that role. I don't disagree they should have good dps. What I disagree with is their amazing survivability that is situationally better than an immortal juggs despite being pure dps class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rymah Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 I don't disagree they should have good dps. What I disagree with is their amazing survivability that is situationally better than an immortal juggs despite being pure dps class. I agree, but the main focus of the thread is what the change to SSM is doing to Juggernaut DPS, imbalances for the cooldowns are another matter entirely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSDx Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 Well I thought SSM is fine just as is. It doesnt seem overpowered to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fallerup Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 love all the changes... we are now on par with PT and Assassin tanks in terms of multy target tanking, where, as you know, we were weak. I've seen great tanks hold back and let their assassin/PT offtanks grab trash because of this... No more! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSDx Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 love all the changes.! I like the changes as a raid tank, hate the changes as a pvper. I'm not sure what to feel other than its going to cost a fortune respecing 8 times a week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fallerup Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 (edited) I like the changes as a raid tank, hate the changes as a pvper. I'm not sure what to feel other than its going to cost a fortune respecing 8 times a week. I don't mind the relic changes as I most of the time forget to pop mine, now I don't have to. I don't see any nerfs at all, escept the relic one. the respecc thing will be a downer, I play rage in PvP, but, respeccing twice pr. day is no biggie if you do your dailies. I hate dailies, but if I must, I must. And besides, my Juggernaut is my alt anyway, so wont be respeccing that often, as we only run alt Ops once a week. Edited June 7, 2012 by Fallerup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traestus Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 I don't mind the relic changes as I most of the time forget to pop mine, now I don't have to. I don't see any nerfs at all, escept the relic one. the respecc thing will be a downer, I play rage in PvP, but, respeccing twice pr. day is no biggie if you do your dailies. I hate dailies, but if I must, I must. And besides, my Juggernaut is my alt anyway, so wont be respeccing that often, as we only run alt Ops once a week. The Relic/Adrenal change is massive for Rage Juggernauts though. We're a controlled burst class, we know exactly when our damage is going to spike. Adrenals and Relics helped us push that burst even higher making us a serious threat. Rage Juggernauts have very little sustained damage, it's basically a guided missile spec. We show up and blow someone up. Everyone sees it happening and it can be difficult to stop. But by basically cutting off a leg of our 1 trick pony, we're now left with a three legged pony that can't do very much. I know it sounds like hyperbole, but the relic change to providing constant stat does nothing for us. Literally the only way it could be worse is if they changed the relic to provide the same bonus as it does now but be a random chance activation on crit. the 6% force damage on SSM is nice...but it doesn't nearly offset the fact that we lost a large portion of our burst which is really all we brought. Basically if we can't pressure nearly as effectively in our window we're useless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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