Vanguard 1.3 Changes

[Krayshawn]

My current impression as a PvE player is "wow, huge nerf." General threat build is up (don't care), multitarget threat build is way up (minor buff in situations that weren't terribly hard), single target damage is down (big nerf in all situations).

 

You are a tank. You have real bad DPS that you run with if they can't pick up your slack. No, dont tell me you DPS in Ion cell?

[CitizenFry]

You are a tank. You have real bad DPS that you run with if they can't pick up your slack. No, dont tell me you DPS in Ion cell?

 

The point isn't "my DPS can't pick up the slack" (I'm sure they can), the point is "my performance is getting reduced without any gains in return."

[ComeAndSee]

WOH WOH WOH, the damage is split? ***. "triggers your Ion Cell on the target and up to 4 additional nearby targets" this is not worded that way at all and proves to be very misleading. now my tool tip for ion cell says 628. obviously some damage is reduced by armor but shouldn't my 623.6 tech bonus damage be applied? But basicaly, HiB, now becomes an AoE 50% snare, thats nice.

 

The tool tips wrong. It says its a 15% chance, but it's more like 45-65%.

 

I have the +25% and +8% damage bonus talents and it only hits for 150-250 and crits for about 300-350 when it ticks. It front loads damage when it procs and ticks every 3s for 9s for the same amount of damage.

 

They're changing the talent next patch it looks like so it's only 25% and only ticks twice now instead of three times. You aren't going to see big numbers, but it's a nice little DPS boost if everyone is all nicely packed.

 

I mean, if Ion Cell is going to hit way harder next patch than it can make up for the Stockstrike damage nerf.

Edited June 6, 2012 by ComeAndSee

[Krayshawn]

The tool tips wrong. It says its a 15% chance, but it's more like 45-65%.

 

I have the +25% and +8% damage bonus talents and it only hits for 150-250 and crits for about 300-350 when it ticks. It front loads damage when it procs and ticks every 3s for 9s for the same amount of damage.

 

They're changing the talent next patch it looks like so it's only 25% and only ticks twice now instead of three times. You aren't going to see big numbers, but it's a nice little DPS boost if everyone is all nicely packed.

 

I mean, if Ion Cell is going to hit way harder next patch than it can make up for the Stockstrike damage nerf.[/quote

 

I like how everything has been broken for 6 months, i really feel like they dont care about Vanguards, in that thing they had a while back showing how many players are what class, we came in last. Ion Cell "jolts" should be effected by tech bonus damage. idk whats more "technologically" based then AN ION JOLT!

[Krayshawn]

The point isn't "my DPS can't pick up the slack" (I'm sure they can), the point is "my performance is getting reduced without any gains in return."

 

You are getting some gains in the form of AoE. I know alot of people complain about threat; i myself dont PvE and wouldn't know.

[ComeAndSee]

I like how everything has been broken for 6 months, i really feel like they dont care about Vanguards, in that thing they had a while back showing how many players are what class, we came in last. Ion Cell "jolts" should be effected by tech bonus damage. idk whats more "technologically" based then AN ION JOLT!

 

Tool tips been wrong since I played the beta. I mean, in reality a 15% chance to proc. is pretty crappy. Better off just cutting the damage and going for more procs.

 

It does proc a lot though on live which makes having to auto attack actually worth wild.

Edited June 6, 2012 by ComeAndSee

[TheOpf]

I don't think your non-slow on Tactics will go live. I am almost positive as soon as the one aoe situation is fixed the snare will be fixed. We need someone on live to do the testing.

 

Besides Kray, we both know I am going to steamroll you with my scoundrel and that's the real reason you are swapping to tank haha.

Edited June 6, 2012 by TheOpf

[Krayshawn]

I don't think your non-slow on Tactics will go live. I am almost positive as soon as the one aoe situation is fixed the snare will be fixed. We need someone on live to do the testing.

 

Besides Kray, we both know I am going to steamroll you with my scoundrel and that's the real reason you are swapping to tank haha.

 

You can't steam roll me if your on my team =p. get on mummble when you can got alot to discuss.

Edited June 6, 2012 by Krayshawn

[Blurps]

You are getting some gains in the form of AoE. I know alot of people complain about threat; i myself dont PvE and wouldn't know.

 

Problem is that many people have been adamantly refusing to adjust to this game's PvE mechanics. Encounters have been designed differently than in most other themepark MMOs, basically the tanks are supposed to keep only the major opponents busy while the rest of the team/raid drops the trash quickly. Hence single target aggro is what matters on live and all three tank classes do just fine in that department.

 

The complaints have been mostly about not being able to run into the room and facetank everything while the dps are on autopilot watching TV. Looks like BW will cave in and change game mechanics, for the current content the boosts to AoE threat in 1.3 just pretty much won't do anything.

[ComeAndSee]

Trying to hold aggro on trash in 16 mans sucks hard core. Just not enough AOE threat available to keep every single target on you. Single target threat is a no brainer.

 

The problem is the "buffs" are serious sacrifices for PvP.

 

So...

 

* Lose 16% chance to crit and 30% critical damage bonus on Explosive Surge for 2 free ones after you storm. That's fine and dandy when you have an extra 50% threat.

 

* Lose the same above for Stockstrike. This is a major nerf for PvP because the majority of your damage comes from Stockstrike. Your primary ability will crit for 1,750 damage (750 less damage) on Light Armor if you have 75% surge. This makes it absolutely abysmal for trying to kill healers 1v1. This change is uncalled for.

 

* High Impact Bolt AOE applies Ion Cell. This is great for PvE and PvP.

 

So you take away 500-1000~ critical damage from Stockstrike for 2 free Explosive Surges when Explosive Surge was nerfed? How does this add up in a single target situation? It doesn't. It ruins the spec. Against tanks it'll probably do the same damage as Ion Pulse.

Edited June 6, 2012 by ComeAndSee

[Krayshawn]

Trying to hold aggro on trash in 16 mans sucks hard core. Just not enough AOE threat available to keep every single target on you. Single target threat is a no brainer.

 

The problem is the "buffs" are serious sacrifices for PvP.

 

So...

 

* Lose 16% chance to crit and 30% critical damage bonus on Explosive Surge for 2 free ones after you storm. That's fine and dandy when you have an extra 50% threat.

 

* Lose the same above for Stockstrike. This is a major nerf for PvP because the majority of your damage comes from Stockstrike. Your primary ability will crit for 1,750 damage (750 less damage) on Light Armor if you have 75% surge. This makes it absolutely abysmal for trying to kill healers 1v1. This change is uncalled for.

 

* High Impact Bolt AOE applies Ion Cell. This is great for PvE and PvP.

 

So you take away 500-1000~ critical damage from Stockstrike for 2 free Explosive Surges when Explosive Surge was nerfed? How does this add up in a single target situation? It doesn't. It ruins the spec. Against tanks it'll probably do the same damage as Ion Pulse.

 

IDK where you got the math but i did 1505 x the suggested 75% surge, then multiplied that by .8 (for a clothey 20% armor reduc) and got 2107. This is not taking into account any Power or bonus damage.

[Fordel]

Does anyone have numbers on how long that buff that gives two free Explosive Surges lasts?

 

Like, do you pretty much have to go STORM SURGE SURGE, or can you save the free Surge for a little bit later after a Storm?

[Lovia]

I've never had anything remotely resembling problems with threat, so any boost to threat is irrelevant.

 

That would be true if they havent fixed the taunt threat generation, but if they have it would effectively fix pve threat in the way ppl asked.

 

How it currently works:

 

The first few moments of engagement are the hardest to keep agro and any crit from a damage dealer or a miss or minor delay on hitting will likely make you lose agro very soon. Sustained threat for a big pack of NPCs is impossible due to the small threat and hard ammo management, versus the dps dealt to them. After threat building for a big amount of time (60 seconds) and then using taunt in every cooldown (or soon in case of tank swaps) trivializes any threat building because taunt provides you with a 30% bonus of threat over the current 1st target threat, even if you are him.

 

How ppl asked for it to work:

Capability to keep agro for the 1st few moments without need to resort to taunts, capability to sustainly keep threat on large packs, taunt to not trivialize threat generation after an amount of time.

[MuscarKrone]

My loss of Burst damage on Stock Strike is sad, but the free explosive surge is frigging sweet.

 

To those Shield Spec Vanguards that know a full length Voidstar where you spam explosive surge = 600K+ damage So If I can spam explosive surge more... YAY!

[Philosomanic]

... This makes it absolutely abysmal for trying to kill healers 1v1 ...

 

 

You know, I don't think BW sees this as a problem. As a tank, I don't think they designed us to be able to take down healers. Assault (with massive burst) and Tactics (with interrupts) can still clearly do that very well. If Shield Specialist was just as capable at bursting and got all our defensive boosts and support/utility, we'd be OP. As things stand right now, I can still do good damage 1v1.

 

I think they're trying to push our DPS into a more supportive role. Rather than bursting down healers, I think they want us to pressure the healers, soften them up, and then keep our DPS allies alive to kill them. It's a much more team-centric role, and I really like it.

 

Also, although this is going to hurt our spike damage from back-to-back Stock Strike with an Energy Blast thrown in, our overall DPS isn't taking that huge of a hit. Assume a base of 40% crit (combat tech 4-set) 70% surge, 1000 damage for SS (for easy math)

 

On live, SS would average 1,700 damage (1000 * (1 + (.70 * 1.00) ) )

With 1.3, SS would average 1,392 damage (1000 * (1+ (.56 * .70) ) )

 

That's a loss of 17.2% damage on Stock Strike. Assume Stock Strike makes up 25% of our overall damage, and we're losing around 4% sustained single-target damage. That sucks, but in exchange we're getting a huge boost to AoE damage, which will allow us to be great at applying pressure.

[TheOpf]

It's not the end of the world at all. Assassins have a reason to freak out as they got dirty kicked in the nuts hard .

 

I like that they are pushing tanks to a more support and protect pvp roll. I think this may be a reason to get more defensive gear in pvp. What this will do is further eliminate Hybrids.

 

The change to tactics simply brings it inline with PT's. Trust me, Norse is just as strong and Tactics will work even better if you get your slow. Nothing like melting a bunch of faces that can't move at all.

[Ossos]

It's not the end of the world at all. Assassins have a reason to freak out as they got dirty kicked in the nuts hard .

 

I like that they are pushing tanks to a more support and protect pvp roll. I think this may be a reason to get more defensive gear in pvp. What this will do is further eliminate Hybrids.

 

The change to tactics simply brings it inline with PT's. Trust me, Norse is just as strong and Tactics will work even better if you get your slow. Nothing like melting a bunch of faces that can't move at all.

 

Does the damage nerf affect the baseline Stockstrike/Rocket Punch? I know it shouldn't but I don't trust BW not to screw it up. My thinking is that the Stock Strike/Punch talent may no longer be worth it.

[Zbus]

It's not the end of the world at all. Assassins have a reason to freak out as they got dirty kicked in the nuts hard .

 

I like that they are pushing tanks to a more support and protect pvp roll. I think this may be a reason to get more defensive gear in pvp. What this will do is further eliminate Hybrids.

 

The change to tactics simply brings it inline with PT's. Trust me, Norse is just as strong and Tactics will work even better if you get your slow. Nothing like melting a bunch of faces that can't move at all.

 

That would be great and all if defensive stats worked in PVP like they do in PVE but they dont. So until that happens expect players to continue putting on DPS gear in tank shield spec. We didnt make the rules Bioware did in this regards we are just working with what they gave us.

Edited June 7, 2012 by Zbus

[TheOpf]

That would be great and all if defensive stats worked in PVP like they do in PVE but they dont. So until that happens expect players to continue putting on DPS gear in tank shield spec. We didnt make the rules Bioware did in this regards we are just working with what they gave us.

 

I am aware, it's hard to convey sarcasm over the internet if it's not dripping. I don't think it's a gamebreaking change, it's not like their were thousands of PT tanks in pvp anyways. There were a few, but you usually were pretty easy to kill anyways. Defensive stats worked best against Snipers, Maras, Juggernaughts, Concealment Operatives, and Deception Assassins. Everyone else just shifted to force attacks and hammered you.

[Krayshawn]

Jugs have sucked it up and came to the realization that their role as a tank in a WZ is not DPS but to be an annoyance.

[Vaizrin]

A tank in PVP is very unique and is not the same as in PVE. I admit my character is not that high, however it is not difficult to see how their intended role is to play out as SW:TOR wants it.

 

Basically the tanks will be dealing constant AOE damage forcing healers to either A) Consistently heal players or B) Allow players' health to drop to lower than normal levels where a true dps can come in and burst them down.

 

This actually increases strain on the healers and forces the previously "OP" healers to work more often. Small consistent damage is very difficult to manage for healers as it forces them to keep HOTs up / group heals up. Say your burst dps didn't kill that player you wanted dead, well now that healer gets to rest after a large heal. Meanwhile with consistent damage they have to keep watching the health of all players, not just focus heal one.

 

This is a huge buff to PVP.

[TheronFett]

The changes are good IMHO...providing that they fix Ion Cell so that it actually works to make up for the DPS loss with the Stockstrike nerf.

 

Each tanking class has a bit of a specialty. Trooper's is AoE tanking. With these changes, I think it will make the tanks even better.

[JidaiGeki]

A tank in PVP is very unique and is not the same as in PVE. I admit my character is not that high, however it is not difficult to see how their intended role is to play out as SW:TOR wants it.

 

Basically the tanks will be dealing constant AOE damage forcing healers to either A) Consistently heal players or B) Allow players' health to drop to lower than normal levels where a true dps can come in and burst them down.

 

This actually increases strain on the healers and forces the previously "OP" healers to work more often. Small consistent damage is very difficult to manage for healers as it forces them to keep HOTs up / group heals up. Say your burst dps didn't kill that player you wanted dead, well now that healer gets to rest after a large heal. Meanwhile with consistent damage they have to keep watching the health of all players, not just focus heal one.

 

This is a huge buff to PVP.

 

What reality are you living in that makes this a huge buff to PvP? Even if you're making use of the two free flame sweeps (energy pulse or whatever) every 14 seconds, which is the geared CD of storm/jet charge, it requires you to leap around the map like a maniac, switching targets constantly and doing negligible damage (perhaps ~2k assuming both flame sweeps crit-- less likely given the nerf to flame sweep crit chance) that is either easily ignored or healed away.

 

Not to mention what's happening to your guarded healer whilst you're trying to proc free flame sweeps by charging up to 30 meters away from them.

[Philosomanic]

What reality are you living in that makes this a huge buff to PvP? Even if you're making use of the two free flame sweeps (energy pulse or whatever) every 14 seconds, which is the geared CD of storm/jet charge, it requires you to leap around the map like a maniac, switching targets constantly and doing negligible damage (perhaps ~2k assuming both flame sweeps crit-- less likely given the nerf to flame sweep crit chance) that is either easily ignored or healed away.

 

Not to mention what's happening to your guarded healer whilst you're trying to proc free flame sweeps by charging up to 30 meters away from them.

 

If you don't like it, don't use it. But he's right; the changes will allow us to apply much more AoE pressure, and that's a good thing. An Explosive Surge that hits 4 players (pretty common, since people bunch up around nodes) will do well upwards of 3k damage. We'll be able to keep up a pretty constant stream of AoE pressure with Explosive Surge, Sticky Grenade, Pulse Cannon, HiB, and Mortar Volley.

 

I'm already using Storm almost on cooldown. The 3s root is invaluable. I use it to root melees chasing my healer around, or enemy healers trying to run away. It's also great for objective-based play, where mobility is everything.

[Vaizrin]

The point isn't that you will be jumping around all the time constantly. That would be extremely counter productive, however they are rewarding you for rushing in to a target by granting you free Explosive Surges.

 

Don't forget that your high impact bolt also now deals splash damage. There are many added mechanisms to make this Tanking advanced class significantly more effective at dealing AOE damage. They even stated in the patch that it was felt each class is intended to fill a role so that all classes working together have synergy and no one class replaces another.

 

We are looking to be AOE tanks. Due to this in PVP constantly using our new AOE will put significant strain on everyone. If I understand correctly you can spec into Ion Cell's proc slowing the target for 2 seconds every tic? Well guess what, you are also able to apply that proc with HIB now... not only are you causing mass damage you are slowing up to 5 members of the enemy team at a time from range.

 

There is a huge level of benefit from these changes for PVP, you just need to rework your logic around it. You are not dps. You are not meant to deal the most damage. So tank, slow, mitigate (via smokebomb), and protect the group.