A new level cap just might be the gamebreaker for me

[Korusus]

I want you all to know that I also play WoW, and I pointed them to this thread and we're all having Lulz about it.

 

Easily one of the most ridiculous topic I have seen in a modern MMO forum. More content too quickly... lol... what.

 

Congratulations on being one of the 10 million people playing WoW...it's not a matter of more content too quickly, the problem is there not being enough new content to go along with the level cap increase. Honestly, one new planet, one new operation, and one new flashpoint is all that's mentioned in this little mini-expansion.

 

Hardly seems worth it to me... but what do I care, my sub expired today and I don't see any compelling reason in 1.3 or this E3 announcement to get me to resub.

Edited June 6, 2012 by Korusus

[DiabloDoom]

LOL!! Read it again: I said taking away devs from development, not "taking away content". Is english not your first launguage? Also, look in this very site. THEY posted it's 55.

 

No, I read it perfectly, I just missed a noun and the preposition out in my reply, I'll rephrase it shall I?

 

Neither did I say that they are taking away development of current content. BTW you never said devs from the development, you said development itself, of which it really never mattered if I missed out the word or not, the insinuation is there you are still putting words in my mouth.

 

Development of content or content itself, you reduce the development then you reduce the content.

 

A syntactically null argument regardless, but if you are to say that they never took any devs away from what could of been other projects for under lvl50 just isn't true, well but you do seem to think that there has been a new dev team which had nothing to do with the initial development stage pre launch creating the new tiered content.

 

Also, whether they posted lvl 55 or not wasn't my dispute, I was asking you if they did so no need for the emphasize of "they". Could you post a link I would like to read.

 

It's not feasible, anyway, to expect a developer not to work on future content.

Just to comment on this, where the hell did I say I expect them to stop development of the game? oh unless you assume that future content in terms restricted only to higher tiers? Future content is anything new, any patch that adds any content, even lvl 10 items.

Edited June 6, 2012 by DiabloDoom

[GreggorZane]

Well it may not be all doom and gloom.

 

There are 3 lvls to cap

 

Character lvl (capped at 50)

legacy lvl (capped at 50)

Valour lvl (capped at 100)

 

I am hoping that whne they are refering to lvl cap increased they are refering legacy and valour and NOT character lvl.

 

Normal Character lvl cap increases come with a big expansion but it doesnt sound from what they are advertising that this is the case.

Edited June 6, 2012 by GreggorZane

[Shingara]

Well it may not be all doom and gloom.

 

There are 3 lvls to cap

 

Character lvl (capped at 50)

legacy lvl (capped at 50)

Valour lvl (capped at 100)

 

I am hoping that whne they are refering to lvl cap increased they are refering legacy and valour and NOT character lvl.

 

Normal Character lvl cap increases come with a big expansion but it doesnt sound from what they are advertising that this is the case.

 

The red part im wondering about, from what standpoint do you take this from and what president within swtor does this go by as we have neither had an expantion in swtor nor anything to show how things 'normally' work or will work in the future with SWTOR.

Edited June 6, 2012 by Shingara

[Sarfux]

Congratulations on being one of the 10 million people playing WoW...it's not a matter of more content too quickly, the problem is there not being enough new content to go along with the level cap increase. Honestly, one new planet, one new operation, and one new flashpoint is all that's mentioned in this little mini-expansion.

 

Hardly seems worth it to me... but what do I care, my sub expired today and I don't see any compelling reason in 1.3 or this E3 announcement to get me to resub.

How do you know that's all? Those were just highlights. There could be more

[Sarfux]

The red part im wondering about, from what standpoint do you take this from and what president within swtor does this go by as we have neither had an expantion in swtor nor anything to show how things 'normally' work or will work in the future with SWTOR.

I think you mean "precident" and "expansion"

 

not "president" and "expantion" lol

[Shingara]

I think you mean "precident" and "expansion"

 

not "president" and "expantion" lol

 

I think you knew exactly what i meant and your just being pedantic.

Edited June 6, 2012 by Shingara

[ReddNekk]

You do realise that out of the steaming pile of updates, the one thing to arise from the stench that might actually bring players back is a new level to get to?

 

Right! Like players who've left SWTOR are going to see that increased level cap and say; "Cool! All the gear that I ground for over a period of several months is going to be obsolete then and I can grind more gear that most likely will be obsolete in another six months!" "I'll re-sub right now!" Like that's really going to happen.

 

I just reciently got my main char and his companions well geared out, and I damn sure aint happy about having to start the process all over again, especially in a MMO that aint even half a year old! IMHO, this raise in level cap will do more harm than good as it will NOT entice players who've left to come back and will likely (certainly in my case) cause others to un-sub.

 

Level caps do NOT need to be raised to add anything to a MMO. It's just another grind. And grinds are never very popular. Dark age of Camelot ran very well for many years and never raised the level cap. DoaC only went downhill after EA took over and turned it into a CC overkill fest. So there's proof that this does not need to be done.

[Shingara]

Right! Like players who've left SWTOR are going to see that increased level cap and say; "Cool! All the gear that I ground for over a period of several months is going to be obsolete then and I can grind more gear that most likely will be obsolete in another six months!" "I'll re-sub right now!" Like that's really going to happen.

 

I just reciently got my main char and his companions well geared out, and I damn sure aint happy about having to start the process all over again, especially in a MMO that aint even half a year old! IMHO, this raise in level cap will do more harm than good as it will NOT entice players who've left to come back and will likely (certainly in my case) cause others to un-sub.

 

Level caps do NOT need to be raised to add anything to a MMO. It's just another grind. And grinds are never very popular. Dark age of Camelot ran very well for many years and never raised the level cap. DoaC only went downhill after EA took over and turned it into a CC overkill fest. So there's proof that this does not need to be done.

 

That doesnt make any logical sense, from that standpoint them bringing out a new operation that is higher rating then what we have now, has better loot that will replace what we have now and has to be grinded through is exactly the same premise that your defining as a level increase that wont retain or regain players.

Edited June 6, 2012 by Shingara

[revial]

The new level cap is a horrendous idea. We already have hardly anything to do at end game. Giving us a new level cap means Bioware needs to start all over on end-game content, so it'll be even worse.

 

I realize Bioware just laid off 200+ employees or something like that, but apparently you missed the important ones, like whatever brain-dead manager came up with this idea.

[primori]

Whats all this talk about current end-game? WHAT FREAKING END-GAME!!!!!

 

Increasing level cap brings players back??????!!??? You on crack????

 

See it for what it is people!!!!!! Marketing nothing more. By Now you should realise they

Dont give a crap about us . They only care for those WHO havent spend 50$ yet.

[Phrase]

That doesnt make any logical sense, from that standpoint them bringing out a new operation that is higher rating then what we have now, has better loot that will replace what we have now and has to be grinded through is exactly the same premise that your defining as a level increase that wont retain or regain players.

 

It's actually a bit more complex than adding just another tier of gear and a new operation when you raise a level cap.

 

1) You have to establish new performance metrics for each class.

2) You have to make sure new abilities and trees synergize with what's already established.

3) You have to re-balance classes around the new performance metrics.

4) You have to figure out how to re-itemize gear to fit within these new metrics (b/c these new gear sets will introduce a new tier of mods and perhaps new set bonuses.)

5) Finally, you either need to re-tune all of your old endgame content making it obsolete for the up and comers, or you leave it as it is and render it obsolete for those at endgame. The first option is anti-thetical to attracting new subscribers as it creates a larger gap between those leveling and those at end-game.

 

Edit: Many of us are still in the process of optimizing our builds in light of recent changes, and throwing more puzzle pieces onto the table too soon will only add to confusion and frustration.

 

You've also mentioned precedent in some of your posts. So, let's look at the precedent BW has established with regards to content updates as they relate to modifying game mechanics:

 

1) Ilum wasn't working as originally designed so they established the player kill daily. We all know how that went. They remedied that by the missile grind. We all know how that went. Finally, they have just left it in limbo. Bw wants to develop content? There's a whole planet waiting for it.

 

2) There are the recent upgrades to the combat system which have left some classes over-tuned w/r/t their desired metrics and some classes are under-tuned. This also left a number of healers feeling that healing is broken for some classes.

 

3) There are a number of missions that are still bugged or that were bugged at launch and only recently fixed.

 

While I understand this is tangential to developing content; it does speak to the fact that BW needs to focus on polishing what is already there as well as developing less ambitious, yet more polished content upgrades, before they attempt something as ambitious as adding a new planet and a new level cap.

Edited June 6, 2012 by Phrase

[Shingara]

It's actually a bit more complex than adding just another tier of gear and a new operation when you raise a level cap.

 

1) You have to establish new performance metrics for each class.

2) You have to make sure new abilities and trees synergize with what's already established.

3) You have to re-balance classes around the new performance metrics.

4) You have to figure out how to re-itemize gear to fit within these new metrics (b/c these new gear sets will introduce a new tier of mods and perhaps new set bonuses.)

5) Finally, you either need to re-tune all of your old endgame content making it obsolete for the up and comers, or you leave it as it is and render it obsolete for those at endgame. The first option is anti-thetical to attracting new subscribers as it creates a larger gap between those leveling and those at end-game.

 

You've also mentioned precedent in some of your posts. So, let's look at the precedent BW has established with regards to content updates as they relate to modifying game mechanics:

 

1) Ilum wasn't working as originally designed so they established the player kill daily. We all know how that went. They remedied that by the missile grind. We all know how that went. Finally, they have just left it in limbo.

 

2) There are the recent upgrades to the combat system which have left some classes over-tuned w/r/t their desired metrics and some classes are under-tuned. This also left a number of healers feeling that healing is broken for some classes.

 

3) There are a number of missions that are still bugged or that were bugged at launch and only recently fixed.

 

While I understand this is tangential to developing content; it does speak to the fact that BW needs to focus on polishing what is already there as well as developing less ambitious, yet more polished content upgrades, before they attempt something as ambitious as adding a new planet and a new level cap.

 

Maybe its more simple then you think, what if they have looked at the metrics and what is required to balance the classes out and what they have come up with is X number of new talents, stats and skills and to implement it that requires X number of levels to be added to the cap.

 

If that is the case its a hell of alot easier to add levels ontop rather then rework the whole of the trees, skills and stats in a reverse order down the levels and talent trees and stats currently in game.

 

Add to this we have no idea and are simply assuming that the operations we have now wont simply be moved within the level range of what the new level cap shall be. Gear is no real biggie as we are always trying to attin the next best level of gear and how gear is done means that the mods within them is what changes and not the actual armour.

 

As for the idea that moving the ops to a higher level to keep them competative isnt a huge biggie either, if its only 5 levels they could simply keep ops where they are now, have the heroic version of it be the new top level and nightmare mode be the hardest version of said operation.

 

If thats how its done then no content would ever be obsolite, the heroic version of it could always be kept at the level cap meaning that the main reason for going there would be fun and challanging content for all and going after armour and weapon models and it still be competative for all involved.

 

For the pvp open world zones, we take them as being top level, as illum is being reworked we dont even know what there doing with it but we can assume that there and the den will remain as top level content. For any missions we can also assume that all missions currently ingame will remain there current level and that new missions on makeb and illum pve zone missions will be what take us to the new level cap.

Edited June 6, 2012 by Shingara

[Phrase]

Maybe its more simple then you think, what if they have look at the metrics and what is required to balance the classes out and what they have come up with is X number of new talents, stats and skills and to implement it that requires X number of levels to be added to the cap.

 

If that is the case its a hell of alot easier to add levels ontop rather then rework the whole of the trees, skills and stats in a reverse order down the levels and talent trees and stats currently in game.

 

Add to this we have no idea and are simply assuming that the operations we have now wont simply be moved within the level range of what the new level cap shall be. Gear is no real biggie as we are always trying to attin the next best level of gear and how gear is done means that the mods within them is what changes and not the actual armour.

 

As for the idea that moving the ops to a higher level to keep them competative isnt a huge biggie either, if its only 5 levels they could simply keep ops where they are now, have the heroic version of it be the new top level and nightmare mode be the hardest version of said operation.

 

If thats how its done then no content would ever be obsolite, the heroic version of it could always be kept at the level meaning that the main reason for going there would be fun and challanging content for all and going after armour and weapon models and it still be competative for all involved.

 

This all, of course, assumes that the introduction of level caps and the new tier of gear goes off without a hitch. As I stated in the second half of my post, this hasn't exactly been BW's track record. Right now BW has received a vote of "no confidence" by a growing number of its fan base as evidenced by server status and sub numbers. It's why they're adding the 1-15 f2p incentive.

 

As far as a simple implementation goes, I hope it goes off without a hitch as I'm a realist enough to know the level increase will happen regardless. It's just that based on the precedent of BW's other updates, if they can find a way to make the simple complex, they will.

 

edit: And for the record, I'm not anti-content or anti-leveling (I've bought into the Legacy system in fact and am currently working on attaining all class buff unlocks across my Legacy). I just think the level cap increase and the new planet are too much, too soon.

 

edit 2: I've also just realized that much of the crux of the argument for level cap increases involves giving players something new to do viz. new operations, story arcs, etc. Why do we need new levels for this? Why not add these new tiers of operations first in order to really challenge those at the top tier of gameplay. Because realistically, if you add a new level of difficulty, but you also add a new tier of gear and new levels to cope with that difficulty, isn't that the same as adding a new operation at the current level of difficulty anyway?

Edited June 6, 2012 by Phrase

[Shingara]

This all, of course, assumes that the introduction of level caps and the new tier of gear goes off without a hitch. As I stated in the second half of my post, this hasn't exactly been BW's track record. Right now BW has received a vote of "no confidence" by a growing number of its fan base as evidenced by server status and sub numbers. It's why they're adding the 1-15 f2p incentive.

 

As far as a simple implementation goes, I hope it goes off without a hitch as I'm a realist enough to know the level increase will happen regardless. It's just that based on the precedent of BW's other updates, if they can find a way to make the simple complex, they will.

 

edit: And for the record, I'm not anti-content or anti-leveling (I've bought into the Legacy system in fact and am currently working on attaining all class buff unlocks across my Legacy). I just think the level cap increase and the new planet are too much, too soon.

 

The so called vote of no confidence is something i dont take seriously at all. it lost all of 400k subs since launch of which we dont know how many have left for good and how many simply wanted the qudos of being here since start and have left for a bit till more content comes which is quite normal amongst alot of mmo players of which thats about average drop for an mmo, and this is one hell of an exciting time for gamers with tons of candy in the shop to play with and gamers spend more time playing multiple games over just one game solidly.

 

As for Biowares track record with swtor, its track record isnt to bad, its alot better then other mmos companys and i would say about average compared to blizzard. To say this is there real 1st time out with an mmo i give them qudos. Alot of what they have brought out works very well and alot of problems can be put down to not enough testing which should be recified now due to char copy being on the pts which on previous testing phases wasnt there meaning a lack of testers on the pts.

 

Im not saying in any way that your against content either, im simply saying that for me, i prefer to be behind a company and game with big dreams and ideas who do push the limits rather then a company that takes it safe and refuses to push the boundrys, i used to think bliz were like that but after the titans debacle and most of there ideas coming from other games ( most of the time directly ripped out of).

 

So really what im saying is that we have heard that there is a level increase coming BUT we are assuming what else is coming with it, we have had no other info on it and think that it will just be a level cap slapped ontop of what we have now and nothing else.

 

edit 2: I've also just realized that much of the crux of the argument for level cap increases involves giving players something new to do viz. new operations, story arcs, etc. Why do we need new levels for this? Why not add these new tiers of operations first in order to really challenge those at the top tier of gameplay. Because realistically, if you add a new level of difficulty, but you also add a new tier of gear and new levels to cope with that difficulty, isn't that the same as adding a new operation at the current level of difficulty anyway?

 

And as i stated we have only been told that level increases are coming and assuming that they are doing it for fun and giggles. I doubt they are doing it on a whim. If it were as simple as you state it they would do that dont you think.

Edited June 6, 2012 by Shingara

[Wraiven]

I still failed to see where they said they are NOT adding more to what's currently here.

 

I fail to see where they said they would...

[Phrase]

Maybe its more simple then you think, what if they have looked at the metrics and what is required to balance the classes out and what they have come up with is X number of new talents, stats and skills and to implement it that requires X number of levels to be added to the cap.

 

If that is the case its a hell of alot easier to add levels ontop rather then rework the whole of the trees, skills and stats in a reverse order down the levels and talent trees and stats currently in game.

 

i prefer to be behind a company and game with big dreams and ideas who do push the limits rather then a company that takes it safe and refuses to push the boundrys, i used to think bliz were like that but after the titans debacle and most of there ideas coming from other games ( most of the time directly ripped out of).

 

So really what im saying is that we have heard that there is a level increase coming BUT we are assuming what else is coming with it, we have had no other info on it and think that it will just be a level cap slapped ontop of what we have now and nothing else.

 

And as i stated we have only been told that level increases are coming and assuming that they are doing it for fun and giggles. I doubt they are doing it on a whim. If it were as simple as you state it they would do that dont you think.

 

So now I'm confused: it will be a simple execution without much need to analyze and balance, and it will be some new groundbreaking system that includes a lot of new content?

 

And again: Why does BW need to introduce a new level cap to tell an engaging story, add content or raise the difficulty level? Everyone seemed to enjoy the Rakghoul event without the need to raise a level cap, or offer much more than titles and vanity items; why not more of this since it has established the precedent of engaging the community and drawing players back to the game?

Edited June 6, 2012 by Phrase

[Thornsbane]

Guys, your freaking out. Its just a increase of a level cap in an mmo. Its normal and good.

 

It will be fun! You cant hold onto your same top gear, powers, or levels forever......that would be boring.

Edited June 6, 2012 by Thornsbane

[Bluerodian]

Guys, your freaking out. Its just a increase of a level cap in an mmo. Its normal and good.

 

It will be fun! You cant hold onto your same top gear forever......that would be boring.

 

It's not a question of whether or not it's normal, but rather or not this is too soon to be upping the cap.

[Shingara]

So now I'm confused: it will be a simple execution without much need to analyze and balance, or it will be some new groundbreaking system that includes a lot of new content?

 

And again: Why does BW need to introduce a new level cap to tell an engaging story, add content or raise the difficulty level? Everyone seemed to enjoy the Rakghoul event without the need to raise a level cap, or offer much more than titles and vanity items; why not more of this since it has established the precedent of engaging the community and drawing players back to the game.

 

OK lets look at this from a standpoint of none biased from both of our sides, we dont know why they are increasing the level cap, we have to assume they have something big coming along with the level increase, we also have to assume that they are not going to make all the endgame content we have right no irrelivent before even 1 year of the games lifecycle has completed.

 

We know that live events are something they plan to use and the level cap had nothing todo with the ragy live event and could be done from mid level. Why are you suggesting that if they increase the level cap that its either or. Who is to say what is coming that hasnt been announced because we only know what is coming upto about 1.5 due to torhead leaks. whats going to be here by the time 1.9 hits.

 

Because this game is very different beast to what we had at launch and we are only 6 months out. we have had new warzones, a live event, we are getting a new companion, we have had changes to the crafting and armour systems and more changes coming in 1.3/1.4.

 

Because i think Bioware has clicked that endgame isnt always the thing that engages the playerbase, it may engage part of it but not all of it, there are plenty of the playerbase and more outside of it that are engaged by vanity, live events, social elements etc that they could be aiming for.

 

So like i said, if they are increasing the level cap if they have any sense they will be keeping current endgame content relevent, they will be adding relevent content togo with it and we are assuming that have todo one or the other but cant do both.

 

And this is setting a standard for swtor, the standard is that we can have a level increase and content increase without having to purchase an expansion, as such we have to assume that what does come within an expansion is going to be something MAJOR.

Edited June 6, 2012 by Shingara

[Thornsbane]

It's not a question of whether or not it's normal, but rather or not this is too soon to be upping the cap.

 

Its likely to be some time away and by then everyone will be crying out for more no doubt. But just imagine if it happeneded today........wow, wouldnt that light a fire under people......the servers would be full for months, excitment would be high......and everything would be ok.

 

This is new content, and new content is good!

Edited June 6, 2012 by Thornsbane

[Phrase]

Guys, your freaking out. Its just a increase of a level cap in an mmo. Its normal and good.

 

It will be fun! You cant hold onto your same top gear, powers, or levels forever......that would be boring.

 

So if they keep this up, what will we all be doing this time next year when we all have 31/31/31 builds with 500k hp and weapons that crit for 100k? (Yes, that's hyperbole.)

Edited June 6, 2012 by Phrase

[Bluerodian]

Its likely to be some time away and by then everyone will be crying out for more no doubt. But just imagine if it happeneded today........wow, wouldnt that light a fire under people......the servers would be full for months, excitment would be high......and everything would be ok.

 

This is new content, and new content is good!

 

Except that people who just finished grinding out for operations would then have to grind out again, and those that had no yet experienced any of the operations would then no longer be able to find groups for them. Obsolete content is rarely revisited.

[Elkirin]

I just looked outside and this new level cap has killed my lawn.

 

$%^&*(%^&*($%^&*()&*(........

 

Probably for the best, I never liked that lawn anyway.

 

IMHO, If you are truly worried about a level cap increase killing the game, get out in your server and do something positive to help other people enjoy and resub. Create events, run races around tattooine, develop a naked dance troupe, announce galactic events in Fleet,announce your location and flag for world pvp, get involved...

[Phrase]

Its likely to be some time away and by then everyone will be crying out for more no doubt. But just imagine if it happeneded today........wow, wouldnt that light a fire under people......the servers would be full for months, excitment would be high......and everything would be ok.

 

This is new content, and new content is good!

 

It's more likely that the servers would have players return for a few weeks. Old premades would come back and clear the content in 3-4 days. Mobs would be camped for a week or two max. Then everyone would realize there still is no endgame and trickle back to wherever else. This too is the norm for level increases.

 

I'm honestly not trying to be a buzzkill. I want this game to succeed. I want to get comfortable in game. I want to build a legacy, but I can't do any of that if game systems are changing every 2-3 months (which is what is happening).