ETA on 1.3 Shadow nerf patch notes?

[PullinStuff]

Lets see:

Shield like a Sage but are a tank so better.

Cast DoTs like a Sage and Lighting also.

Stealth like a Opertive but has a speed burst of a Sage also in Stealth.

Self heals that crit for pretty good numbers like a Sent or Maur.

Stuns and mez that other tanks lack.

And DPS very close to a full DPS spec but with better self heals.

 

Yea sure not OP in any way.

You should play the class...

Assassins do not have healing spells or the force bubble that sorcs have, never did.... The assassin has a defensive cd barrier....

The lightning is weak, I know I have a 50 of each and the lightning hits for half of my sorc (I play dec, not tank)

Dots are one unless they are madness, and you have to hybrid to make it worthwhile

Its an assassin, of course it has stealth

It is an assassin of course it has speed (melee classes need gap closers)

Stuns and mezzes... LIGHT ARMOR that other tanks lack....

I have not personally seen a tank assassin crit for over 3500....

[Aaroneus]

Shields can only have a chance (based on shield chance) to negate melee/ranged attacks (white damage) that don't happen to crit (or so I've been told and honestly haven't seen any evidence to dispute this) and since most people tend to have ~ 37-42% crit rating, even that white damage can easily go unmitigated by shields (particularly if someone pops a crit relic and/or adrenal to further boost that crit chance). Considering most tank gear has shield/absorbtion modifiers, and/or defense chance modifiers (which only tend to be effective if you have a high base defense chance prior to modifiers from gear in combination either with an ability to debuff a target accuracy or a method to significantly increase your defense chances via talented abilities and/or defensive cooldown to further modify it - but this will also only apply to melee/ranged attacks).

Furthermore, tank specs in tank gear tend to dish out terrible damage. You tend to lose very little survivability as a tank if you switch to DPS gear ("best defense is a good offense" rings true since you take no damage from enemies that are dead; thus, killing people more quickly tends to have a much more significant impact). One day, I'll get around to stacking some additional defense chance on my assassin once I respec him back to tankassin (which has a 16% defense chance before modifiers) to check whether or not its increased survivability will outweigh the loss to damage output, but that'll be a good ways down the road for me.

 

I agree with what you're saying. But correct me if I'm wrong, it looks like you're looking at this in a 1v1 context. In which case, you're probably right. But the point of a tank is to go in with your team and mitigate damage being done to them using guard, taunts, etc. Anyone rolling a tank with the intention to spec as a tank should not expect to do a lot of damage because frankly, that' not their role on a team. Leave that to the DPS. Think of how imbalanced tanks would be if they could dish out close to or as much damage as a DPS. That would be scary.

[SinnedWill]

I think you guys calling for Assassin/Shadow nerfs have just been in the unfortunate situation of playing against a few players who are hella good at playing their chars. Any class is tough to bring down if the operator is skilled and has a plethora of experience pvp-ing with their class. There is however a fair amount of pre-puberty kids out there who roll assassins because that want to be Darth Maul and have no clue how to fight in WZ's/ achieve wz objectives. Don't give up hope. Get on the interwebhyperglobalcompunetwork and read up on how to burn down those sins and shads..

 

I play Madness Sorc, Carnage Marauder (yes, I know annihilation is better, but I like its playstyle), Tankassin (which I respecced to Deception yesterday to test out - definitely isn't bad with good gear, but it's a very different playstyle), Marksman Sniper (will likely respec to Lethality soon, however), and Pyro P-tech (lets not get into it about this can of worms, however). In my honest opinion, my Tankassin (31/2/8) performs a bit too effectively, and can easily stand up to any class/spec if I use good tactics and well-timed abilities. If I play any of my other classes just as well (with luck playing a significant factor), sure, I MIGHT pull off a miracle, but nowhere near as often (or as easily) as my tankassin.

Now, I love my tankassin, so I don't want any huge nerfs or anything, but I feel they could lose SOME of what they have and still be a very effective class.

[Astarica]

In terms of skillset Deception Assassins are a hard counter to Tankasins but in reality Deception is so weak they still lose horribly even though Low Slash is the only move in the game that can effectively counter HD stacks.

 

Marauders get countered by Tankasins, not the other way around, unless you play a Tankasin like a Marauder, in which case you're playing the wrong class. Pyros are powerful but they're not in the same league as Mara/Tanksin, same with Snipers. In practical terms, Sniper/Pyro might be the best counter in the sense that if one of those hounded a Tankasin enough you might get him angry enough to kill you instead of healer/Mara. In particular Pyros have a tendency to barely out DPS a Tankasin in the leaderboard so they can also draw the Tankasin's wrath even though leaderboard numbers are meanigless (Marauders usually lose to PTs in leaderboard but surely no one thinks that's because Marauders are weaker than PTs)

[Aaroneus]

I play Madness Sorc, Carnage Marauder (yes, I know annihilation is better, but I like its playstyle), Tankassin (which I respecced to Deception yesterday to test out - definitely isn't bad with good gear, but it's a very different playstyle), Marksman Sniper (will likely respec to Lethality soon, however), and Pyro P-tech (lets not get into it about this can of worms, however). In my honest opinion, my Tankassin (31/2/8) performs a bit too effectively, and can easily stand up to any class/spec if I use good tactics and well-timed abilities. If I play any of my other classes just as well (with luck playing a significant factor), sure, I MIGHT pull off a miracle, but nowhere near as often (or as easily) as my tankassin.

Now, I love my tankassin, so I don't want any huge nerfs or anything, but I feel they could lose SOME of what they have and still be a very effective class.

 

I'd say that you, sir, are one of those people that are hella good at playing their sin that I described before . It'll be interesting what the future will bring for this class and it's tanking abilities. On a completely unrelated note, my sniper is lethality spec'ed and I highly recommend it. Just remember to chose your target smartly (go for the ones with no defence buff/static shield/force bubble).

[SinnedWill]

I agree with what you're saying. But correct me if I'm wrong, it looks like you're looking at this in a 1v1 context. In which case, you're probably right. But the point of a tank is to go in with your team and mitigate damage being done to them using guard, taunts, etc. Anyone rolling a tank with the intention to spec as a tank should not expect to do a lot of damage because frankly, that' not their role on a team. Leave that to the DPS. Think of how imbalanced tanks would be if they could dish out close to or as much damage as a DPS. That would be scary.

 

Tankassins in DPS gear dish out VERY GOOD dps. I wouldn't say it's QUITE as on par with pure dps specs, but they can certainly come close. Every other tank class that dishes out decent/good DPS happens to be hybrid (at least to some extent) and also wears DPS gear. You really don't lose much overall survivability (in group fights) if you do this, and even in group fights, if you're helping to kill enemies more quickly, you're buying more time for your teammates to heal up and/or focus on the next target.

Every class that has taunts (regardless of whether or not they're DPS specced or tank specced) benefit more significantly when there are multiples of them (part of the reason why pyro p-tech/vg pack-runners tend to roll groups of enemies that might even outnumber them slightly).

[Aaroneus]

Tankassins in DPS gear dish out VERY GOOD dps. I wouldn't say it's QUITE as on par with pure dps specs, but they can certainly come close. Every other tank class that dishes out decent/good DPS happens to be hybrid (at least to some extent) and also wears DPS gear. You really don't lose much overall survivability (in group fights) if you do this, and even in group fights, if you're helping to kill enemies more quickly, you're buying more time for your teammates to heal up and/or focus on the next target.

Every class that has taunts (regardless of whether or not they're DPS specced or tank specced) benefit more significantly when there are multiples of them (part of the reason why pyro p-tech/vg pack-runners tend to roll groups of enemies that might even outnumber them slightly).

 

Just out of curiosity, what are you criting with your most effective attacks?

[Astarica]

The ceiling for Tankasin is way too high for a good player. Here are some of the common enablers for a powerful class:

 

sustained DPS

burst DPS

sustained survival

burst survival (defensive CDs)

stealth

mobility

Guard/Taunt

Heal others

 

Burst DPS for Tankasin is about above average (though Force Shroud ensures nobody can CC you out of burst, which is often overlooked), and we can't heal. Everything else, we got it and is often #1 in that category.

 

Note that Marauders have pretty much everything we have except Guard/Taunt too. They've higher burst but less defense. Every other class is missing quite a few abilities out of the above list. For example, Pyro/Sniper sure don't have survivality of any kind.

[Astarica]

Just out of curiosity, what are you criting with your most effective attacks?

 

Since Force Lightning is spread to 4 ticks and Assassainate rarely registers as 'high hit' (killing blow never counts) there's no reason to expect to see extremely high numbers. I can have a thoroughly dominating performacne without registering a hit over 3K. Note the word is 'register' here. I"ll have several 4K Assassinates but since they usually kill the target, they don't register on the 'highest hit' tracker.

 

The funny thing is that although Force Lighting at 2 stacks of HD has basically the same tooltip damage as Ravage and is usable way more often and shares the exact base properties (immune to interrup) and certainly takes longer to get out of its range (~15m versus ~10m), people are more afraid of Ravage than Force Lightning.

[SinnedWill]

I'd say that you, sir, are one of those people that are hella good at playing their sin that I described before . It'll be interesting what the future will bring for this class and it's tanking abilities. On a completely unrelated note, my sniper is lethality spec'ed and I highly recommend it. Just remember to chose your target smartly (go for the ones with no defence buff/static shield/force bubble).

(sorry for getting off-topic here)

Well, the best sniper on my server happens to be lethality spec (not full 31 in lethality, mind you) and his advice for the spec is to pick any target that cannot remove his DoT's due to the internal damage from cull ignoring armor rating.

(back on topic)

It's not that I'm "hella good" at playing my sin (though I DO tend to always be practicing new tactics to perform most effectively on all of my characters - but perhaps that is what you define as "hella good") - in fact I'd say I have the best tactics down for my Madness Sorc. followed by my Carnage Marauder and Pyro P-tech. The issue is that there are classes/specs/situations where I cannot win with them whereas I might (and often do) as tankassin - there just doesn't seem to be many situations where it cannot effectively prevent what would normally be the inevitable death I'd take on any other class, and I really don't see any class being an effective "hard counter" to it... other than heavy focus fire + stun-locks, but that trumps everyone (and requires more time and abilities with cooldowns to be used compared to my other classes - and this overcommitment of effort and numbers forced upon enemies usually causes the rest of my team to benefit heavily).

[SinnedWill]

Just out of curiosity, what are you criting with your most effective attacks?

Recklessness consumed energized shocks (particularly when they chain-shock), procced mauls (best thing against heavy armored opponents), wither is meh, but good total damage when it lands on 3+ targets (mostly use it for HD stacks, damage debuff, and slow effect), fully stacked HD force lightning is nice (definitely not on par with a full ravage cycle, but much more likely to go full cycle compared to ravage due to the fact that I'm not in knockback range when I use it), and yes, assassinate is great (best on sorc/sages without bubble). Considering geared opponents tend to easily have more than 15k HP, I don't notice the issue the other guy mentioned about it not dealing the full 4k+ damage (on sorc/sages without bubbles) as often as he mentioned due to targets having less health compared to the damage it dealt, but it DOES happen - particularly in large group combat or if I'm running with a DPS hog that can dish out finishing damage without a finisher ability from better range (*cough* pyro PT - lol, I run with a good one quite a bit, and unless I'm in melee range right when they drop below 30%, yes, my assassinate won't give me full damage credit for it, lol).

Edited June 5, 2012 by SinnedWill

[Aaroneus]

(sorry for getting off-topic here)

Well, the best sniper on my server happens to be lethality spec (not full 31 in lethality, mind you) and his advice for the spec is to pick any target that cannot remove his DoT's due to the internal damage from cull ignoring armor rating.

(back on topic)

It's not that I'm "hella good" at playing my sin (though I DO tend to always be practicing new tactics to perform most effectively on all of my characters - but perhaps that is what you define as "hella good") - in fact I'd say I have the best tactics down for my Madness Sorc. followed by my Carnage Marauder and Pyro P-tech. The issue is that there are classes/specs/situations where I cannot win with them whereas I might (and often do) as tankassin - there just doesn't seem to be many situations where it cannot effectively prevent what would normally be the inevitable death I'd take on any other class, and I really don't see any class being an effective "hard counter" to it... other than heavy focus fire + stun-locks, but that trumps everyone (and requires more time and abilities with cooldowns to be used compared to my other classes - and this overcommitment of effort and numbers forced upon enemies usually causes the rest of my team to benefit heavily).

 

Good point. I'll try to keep an eye on some of my shad/sin team mates and see how they fare in a variety of situations themselves. I'm hoping I drove my point home to that other guy that tank stats are not completely useless, a tank just has to know his role within a team. Thanks for the good discussion.

[Kawiki]

The ceiling for Tankasin is way too high for a good player. Here are some of the common enablers for a powerful class:

 

sustained DPS

burst DPS

sustained survival

burst survival (defensive CDs)

stealth

mobility

Guard/Taunt

Heal others

 

Burst DPS for Tankasin is about above average (though Force Shroud ensures nobody can CC you out of burst, which is often overlooked), and we can't heal. Everything else, we got it and is often #1 in that category.

 

Note that Marauders have pretty much everything we have except Guard/Taunt too. They've higher burst but less defense. Every other class is missing quite a few abilities out of the above list. For example, Pyro/Sniper sure don't have survivality of any kind.

 

Tankasins are jack of all trades and master of none.

 

There is not a single thing you listed that tankasin do the very best in your list (tied on taunts/stealth).

[FrankyMcShanky]

I play a Scrapper spec Scoundrel and Tankassins give me the least trouble. It's far more difficult for me to deal with a dps shadow/assassin than it is a tank.

 

That being said I think Shadows/Assassins are one of the most well balanced classes in the game and instead of nerfing them the other AC's should be buffed or nerfed to their level.

Edited June 5, 2012 by FrankyMcShanky

[ShadowOfVey]

Good point. I'll try to keep an eye on some of my shad/sin team mates and see how they fare in a variety of situations themselves. I'm hoping I drove my point home to that other guy that tank stats are not completely useless, a tank just has to know his role within a team. Thanks for the good discussion.

 

Tank stats are definitely not COMPLETELY useless.

 

It's just that in most situations, they aren't as useful as the dps stats. If you want to tank it up it's probably optimum to adjust your mods/enhancements to the ones that are higher on endurance (which besides giving you more hps, means 3x lightning heals you for more) while still maintaining the usual power/surge/crit.

 

You can't pick the composition of the enemy team, and every time you're being hit by people that do little/no white damage, your defense/shield/absorb rating is purely inferior to dps stats.

 

General armor mitigation is same regardless of whether the gear is tank gear or dps gear. (42.06% in full war hero items with the tank talents in dark charge).

[Astarica]

Tankasins are jack of all trades and master of none.

 

There is not a single thing you listed that tankasin do the very best in your list (tied on taunts/stealth).

 

How do you put up top DPS numbers in a WZ, even meaningless DPS numbers, if you're not good at a combination of sustained DPS + sustained survival?

 

Force Shroud is arguably the strongest defensive CD in the game.

 

Tankasins are faster than anyone else by the virtue of a permanent snare, Force Speed on 20s, and that Force Speed breaks all movement impairment effect.

 

It'd be more correct to say Tankasins are masters of all than jack of all trades if one is looking for a grossly inaccurate stereotype. At least master of all is closer than the truth.

[Kawiki]

How do you put up top DPS numbers in a WZ, even meaningless DPS numbers, if you're not good at a combination of sustained DPS + sustained survival?

 

I'd call it pressure DPS. In any event its not the best. Also both other tank specs have better PvP mitigation. Wait to you face a hybrid Guardian/Jugg in DPS gear. You are going to be crying even more.

 

Force Shroud is arguably the strongest defensive CD in the game. UR is better, just by virtue of immunity v. all damage.

 

Tankasins are faster than anyone else by the virtue of a permanent snare, Force Speed on 20s, and that Force Speed breaks all movement impairment effect.

 

Yes a <10M tank needs a gap closer. I'd take force leap any day with the 4 second immunity to any stuns/movement impairing effect.

 

It'd be more correct to say Tankasins are masters of all than jack of all trades if one is looking for a grossly inaccurate stereotype. At least master of all is closer than the truth.

 

I get it you don't like Tankasins.

 

Comments in red.

[Sookster]

I eat all walks of assassins alive in WZ on my Arsenal Mercenary. Omm nomm nomm. Easy kills.

 

Arsenal over a sin? BWAHAHAHA

[Lymain]

Shields can only have a chance (based on shield chance) to negate melee/ranged attacks (white damage) that don't happen to crit (or so I've been told and honestly haven't seen any evidence to dispute this) and since most people tend to have ~ 37-42% crit rating, even that white damage can easily go unmitigated by shields (particularly if someone pops a crit relic and/or adrenal to further boost that crit chance).

 

Crit vs. Shield is one roll, but crit overpowers shield. If you have 40% crit chance against 40% shield chance, you'll get 20% normal hits, 40% crit, 40% shielded. But if you have 100% crit chance, you'll never see a shielded attack, even if the target has 100% shield chance.

 

The point is that 42% crit chance will only reduce the effectiveness of a tank's shield if they have more than 58% shield chance.

Edited June 5, 2012 by Lymain

[NoTomorrow]

Crit vs. Shield is one roll, but crit overpowers shield. If you have 40% crit chance against 40% shield chance, you'll get 20% normal hits, 40% crit, 40% shielded. But if you have 100% crit chance, you'll never see a shielded attack, even if the target has 100% shield chance.

 

The point is that 42% crit chance will only reduce the effectiveness of a tank's shield if they have more than 58% shield chance.

 

As i understand, it first rolls for crit, then if its not crit, the tank rolls for shield..

[Lymain]

As i understand, it first rolls for crit, then if its not crit, the tank rolls for shield..

 

Yeah, that's not accurate.

[Caeliux]

there is 0 chance of a nerf becuase to put it bluntly its not needed

 

^

 

The only post in this thread that is 100% accurate.

[Arunas]

Good tankins with optimized gear can crit 4k+ and top wz damage charts while guarding the healer... Darkness tree is so good it makes other trees redundant and some would argue best tanks for HM Denova on top on that... I dunno but a class with no weaknesses is just over the top.

[Pekish]

if a tanksin top the damage scoreboard his team is pretty lame

[Remusrwolf]

 

Electocute is 4 sec unless I am misremembering, and jolt is on 12 sec cd (compared to marauders which is about half this). In addition, the pull doesn't knock people down like force push does. This making tank assassin just about the worst class of all to kill healers with. Sure, we can argue that they have too much survivability for that DPS, but them being too good at killing healers? No. Just plain no.

 

I didn't say they need to be nerfed, I don't think they do, I was just saying that they are comparable to Jugs when it comes to mezzes/ccs/kbs/interrupts. I said I wasn't sure on the Jug/Mara interrupt so I wouldn't count Jolt, and you're right Electrocute is 4 secs, and Grapple doesn't knock down like Force Push does. I also didn't say Tankassins could kill ALL healers, just Merc healers. To reiterate, my point was merely that they have comparable mezz/cc/stun/interrupt ability to a Jug, not ONLY Electrocute and WW.