Powertech Pyrotech deserve the HUGE nerf

[DarthNuke]

Whenever you run a level 50 warzone against a team of 8 Pyros....that pretty much screams that there is a problem with the class.

 

Yes...that happened today.

 

Have fun with the Nerf Mjolnir.

 

[Daiyukie]

No, there is a time to move into 10 meter range and there is a time to move OUT of 10 meter range.

The constant moving between medium and close range is one of the things that makes a vanguard / powertech a unique class to play.

 

If I'm ganked by an operative, run away from him, only to grapple him back in my face so he can finish me off, I'm a darn fool. I'm going to get range on you because I can pull off a part of my skills at range.

And I'm only ever going to get near your nasty blades when I have to. It's called logic.

 

If you wait for the giggle, chances are you'll be too late, you need to look for other visual cues from the abilities that precede the use of railshot: incendiary missile / thermal detonar etc.

 

 

 

This, honestly, from the moment you're stepping into a fight without a healer glued on your butt, you know you'll be doomed once your health hits a certain percentage.

 

Unlike other classes, you have no options for in-combat recovery or resetting the fight.

 

Pyro burst is annoyingly high, the rotation is annoyingly simple. I agree.

The burst is counter-able however and will be lower once 1.3 hits with the adrenal changes.

But if you want to take it all away, you need to realise that you're either in for destruction of the class, or that you're gonna have to seriously redesign the way these trees work.

 

However, the point is that without adrenals or relics, the Pyro bursts better than the stealth burst class while being harder to kill. Yes, ok, you don't have stealth. But my stealth doesn't give me any other advantage than running away when I get headshotted by railshots; it doesn't give me better burst than you, it doesn't give me better survivability in a fight than you, it doesn't give me anything except a "run to heal and try to find a Sorc" option. There'd be no problem if my burst was higher and my survivability lower, because that's give-and-take. When my burst is lower and my survivability is lower, that's take-take. How do you not see that?

[Kehtal]

However, the point is that without adrenals or relics, the Pyro bursts better than the stealth burst class while being harder to kill. Yes, ok, you don't have stealth. But my stealth doesn't give me any other advantage than running away when I get headshotted by railshots; it doesn't give me better burst than you, it doesn't give me better survivability in a fight than you, it doesn't give me anything except a "run to heal and try to find a Sorc" option. There'd be no problem if my burst was higher and my survivability lower, because that's give-and-take. When my burst is lower and my survivability is lower, that's take-take. How do you not see that?

 

I was talking to a guy in general chat that mentioned operative/scoundrel with regard to 1.3. I hadn't thought of that. They're going to do even less burst damage with the removal of adrenal use in WZs. The nerfs to Shoot First and Flechette round are really starting to look over the top =/

Edited June 23, 2012 by Kehtal

[Daiyukie]

L2P stealth... better?

 

You hit the nail on the head with ANY stealth class. Get in, hit hard and if things go south get out. You can hold off a cap for quite a while like that, and guess what, your playing good. Thinking you should be able to unstealth and facemelt anyone, is playing bad.

 

PTs dont have that option. They go in guns ablazing and have to take whatever punishment is dealt them. Theres no choosing fights, vanishing and trying again ect ect. We're all in when we enter a fight, while youve got the choice of when to fight and a get out of jail free card. Coupled with great burst, although lacking in sustained. I dont see a problem here.

 

But we don't have GREAT burst, that's the problem. We have GOOD burst, PTs have GREAT burst. See above, this is the whole issue =/ Ops/Scoundrels can't hit 5k crits on similar geared players with every consumable running; PTs can go above 5k. That's the prime example, we need either our 50% armor pen back or 5% raised damage on Shoot First and Back Blast. Is that REALLY so much to ask?

[KBSIP]

But we don't have GREAT burst, that's the problem. We have GOOD burst, PTs have GREAT burst. See above, this is the whole issue =/ Ops/Scoundrels can't hit 5k crits on similar geared players with every consumable running; PTs can go above 5k. That's the prime example, we need either our 50% armor pen back or 5% raised damage on Shoot First and Back Blast. Is that REALLY so much to ask?

 

here's the crux of the issue, you're posting in a nerf powertechs thread but nerfing powertechs won't improve scoundrels/operatives. what you want/need and are stating is the need for a buff to scoundrel/operative DPS, or at least an unnerf.

[Daiyukie]

here's the crux of the issue, you're posting in a nerf powertechs thread but nerfing powertechs won't improve scoundrels/operatives. what you want/need and are stating is the need for a buff to scoundrel/operative DPS, or at least an unnerf.

 

That's what WE need. I've already stated that Railshot just needs reduced armor pen and it's fine.

[KBSIP]

That's what WE need. I've already stated that Railshot just needs reduced armor pen and it's fine.

 

everyone, including many powertechs, have stated that the perfect balance solution is to bump the armor pen talent higher into the advanced prototype tree, or simply see a flat cut in its armor pen. the first solution would be good for railshot builds of AP as they only railshot every 15 seconds on a dotted target, and making it either impossible or requiring damage sacrifices form pyro to access PPA and railshot armor pen concurrently would be good as well.

[Daiyukie]

everyone, including many powertechs, have stated that the perfect balance solution is to bump the armor pen talent higher into the advanced prototype tree, or simply see a flat cut in its armor pen. the first solution would be good for railshot builds of AP as they only railshot every 15 seconds on a dotted target, and making it either impossible or requiring damage sacrifices form pyro to access PPA and railshot armor pen concurrently would be good as well.

 

Everyone except Bioware. And everyone in this thread that insists that Powertechs are fine. I agree wholeheartedly, but I still think the POTENTIAL for 90% armor pen is ridiculous when also combined with elemental damage attacks. I mean jeez, tanks are already pretty marginal.

[Kehtal]

everyone, including many powertechs, have stated that the perfect balance solution is to bump the armor pen talent higher into the advanced prototype tree, or simply see a flat cut in its armor pen. the first solution would be good for railshot builds of AP as they only railshot every 15 seconds on a dotted target, and making it either impossible or requiring damage sacrifices form pyro to access PPA and railshot armor pen concurrently would be good as well.

 

Flat cut in armor pen would work best, I think, since... Hell I don't even know what it's called offhand. The "Middle Tree". Just isn't viable, or at least not optimal, from a damage dealing or survivability standpoint. If you moved the talent further up the tree, Assault (Pyro) builds would have to sacrifice their 31pt talent which I don't think would be worth doing.

[KBSIP]

Everyone except Bioware. And everyone in this thread that insists that Powertechs are fine. I agree wholeheartedly, but I still think the POTENTIAL for 90% armor pen is ridiculous when also combined with elemental damage attacks. I mean jeez, tanks are already pretty marginal.

 

for railshot I think in certain circumstances portions of tanking are fine, such as accuracy versus defense checks overruling critical checks. I do think shields need to NOT be pushed off the tabled by critical chance, it should probably work in reverse since the expressed intent of BW has been they want higher time-to-kill.

 

if you fix the shielding you deal with railshot a bit more effectively for tanks, though the armor pen fix would still be desirable.

 

as far as dealing with elemental damage goes, for the most part the damage is low until you're dealing with the top tier talent of AP on a 15 second cooldown, and the fully stacked PFT which has to be treated like a fully specced ravage/master strike. I do think healers need to have their cleanse buffed for sorcs/sages as at the moment they can't do anything about the burning tech DoT's that pyros apply.

[Kehtal]

for railshot I think in certain circumstances portions of tanking are fine, such as accuracy versus defense checks overruling critical checks. I do think shields need to NOT be pushed off the tabled by critical chance, it should probably work in reverse since the expressed intent of BW has been they want higher time-to-kill.

 

if you fix the shielding you deal with railshot a bit more effectively for tanks, though the armor pen fix would still be desirable.

 

as far as dealing with elemental damage goes, for the most part the damage is low until you're dealing with the top tier talent of AP on a 15 second cooldown, and the fully stacked PFT which has to be treated like a fully specced ravage/master strike. I do think healers need to have their cleanse buffed for sorcs/sages as at the moment they can't do anything about the burning tech DoT's that pyros apply.

 

I guess the elemental damage isn't high from a burst perspective, but it IS pretty consistent when you figure that Ion Pulse (whatever the PT equivalent is) crits for ~1100 on average and 1600 under the best circumstances, and 100% procs plasma cell which is probably a 700/1000 scenario, which applies a snare.

 

The crits are pretty consistent, figuring the 6% crit from the "middle tree" and the already high crit from BM gear.

 

And bypasses most defensive CDs, being elemental and not ranged, with the exception of Shadow's Resilience.

 

(Speaking from the experience of an Assault Vanguard)

Edited June 23, 2012 by Kehtal

[KBSIP]

I guess the elemental damage isn't high from a burst perspective, but it IS pretty consistent when you figure that Ion Pulse (whatever the PT equivalent is) crits for ~1100 on average and 1600 under the best circumstances, and 100% procs plasma cell which is probably a 700/1000 scenario, which applies a snare.

 

And bypasses mos defensive CDs, with the exception of Shadow's Resilience.

 

(Speaking from the experience of an Assault Vanguard)

 

the DoT is the biggest concern and I think an improvement to healers in general on cleanses would help mitigate it and encourage more balanced teams for rated. at the moment, cleanses are kept on a cooldown and sorcerers/sages cant even cleanse the pyro applied DoT (which is also what causes the snare). buffing the cleanses helps to mitigate this.

[Daiyukie]

for railshot I think in certain circumstances portions of tanking are fine, such as accuracy versus defense checks overruling critical checks. I do think shields need to NOT be pushed off the tabled by critical chance, it should probably work in reverse since the expressed intent of BW has been they want higher time-to-kill.

 

if you fix the shielding you deal with railshot a bit more effectively for tanks, though the armor pen fix would still be desirable.

 

as far as dealing with elemental damage goes, for the most part the damage is low until you're dealing with the top tier talent of AP on a 15 second cooldown, and the fully stacked PFT which has to be treated like a fully specced ravage/master strike. I do think healers need to have their cleanse buffed for sorcs/sages as at the moment they can't do anything about the burning tech DoT's that pyros apply.

 

@ last part: Which is why I say Pyros can perma-snare; I'm CONSTANTLY burning despite using cleanse on-cooldown. I've noticed this is a visual bug, since I continue to burn when I can see that the debuff/DoT/whatever is gone from my bar, but other times it is simply instantly reapplied. Making cleanse have no cooldown would go a long way to helping deal with Pyros as well, but would further destroy the viability of DoT specs. You couldn't just spam it, however, since it does take a chunk of energy regardless, but I don't know if that's enough to balance out having no cooldown. Simply adding a cleanse effect to Kolto Pack (the energy and Upper Hand using second casted heal that no Sawbones ever uses) would also help that ability and give another recourse to combat all the flames.

[Kehtal]

the DoT is the biggest concern and I think an improvement to healers in general on cleanses would help mitigate it and encourage more balanced teams for rated. at the moment, cleanses are kept on a cooldown and sorcerers/sages cant even cleanse the pyro applied DoT (which is also what causes the snare). buffing the cleanses helps to mitigate this.

 

I would agree with that, but most people wouldn't see that as a "fix", since the action has to come from them.

[Kehtal]

@ last part: Which is why I say Pyros can perma-snare; I'm CONSTANTLY burning despite using cleanse on-cooldown. I've noticed this is a visual bug, since I continue to burn when I can see that the debuff/DoT/whatever is gone from my bar, but other times it is simply instantly reapplied. Making cleanse have no cooldown would go a long way to helping deal with Pyros as well, but would further destroy the viability of DoT specs. You couldn't just spam it, however, since it does take a chunk of energy regardless, but I don't know if that's enough to balance out having no cooldown. Simply adding a cleanse effect to Kolto Pack (the energy and Upper Hand using second casted heal that no Sawbones ever uses) would also help that ability and give another recourse to combat all the flames.

 

They absolutely can perma snare. I do it on my vanguard all day. Cleanse would almost have to apply an immunity to such effects. Presently operative/scoundrel "dodge" removes all negative effects.

 

Unless you're a vanguard. You just reapply them.

[KBSIP]

@ last part: Which is why I say Pyros can perma-snare; I'm CONSTANTLY burning despite using cleanse on-cooldown. I've noticed this is a visual bug, since I continue to burn when I can see that the debuff/DoT/whatever is gone from my bar, but other times it is simply instantly reapplied. Making cleanse have no cooldown would go a long way to helping deal with Pyros as well, but would further destroy the viability of DoT specs. You couldn't just spam it, however, since it does take a chunk of energy regardless, but I don't know if that's enough to balance out having no cooldown. Simply adding a cleanse effect to Kolto Pack (the energy and Upper Hand using second casted heal that no Sawbones ever uses) would also help that ability and give another recourse to combat all the flames.

 

that's an interesting point, I had forgotten about dot reliant specs (madness). your fix is good, though sorc/sage would still need their cleanse to include tech effects in order for them to be viable in dealing with the Pyro DoT's. Also note that its a balancing act here, that DoT is what determines whether or not you can even get hit with the railshot, so making it too easily removable trivializes the primary damage dealer of the pyro tree.

[Blasphemerr]

errbody in the club needin' nerfs

[Kehtal]

that's an interesting point, I had forgotten about dot reliant specs (madness). your fix is good, though sorc/sage would still need their cleanse to include tech effects in order for them to be viable in dealing with the Pyro DoT's. Also note that its a balancing act here, that DoT is what determines whether or not you can even get hit with the railshot, so making it too easily removable trivializes the primary damage dealer of the pyro tree.

 

Well, to be fair, it's dots, heatseeker (grav round) stacks or any incapacitating effect.

 

 

Not that you necessarily want to blow a stun just to get rail shot off.

Edited June 23, 2012 by Kehtal

[Daiyukie]

that's an interesting point, I had forgotten about dot reliant specs (madness). your fix is good, though sorc/sage would still need their cleanse to include tech effects in order for them to be viable in dealing with the Pyro DoT's. Also note that its a balancing act here, that DoT is what determines whether or not you can even get hit with the railshot, so making it too easily removable trivializes the primary damage dealer of the pyro tree.

 

As Kehtal says, it's pretty much any other negative effect (I exaggerate, but you know) and since I've read defenders of Pyro going "as soon as you clean the PT's day is ruined and he'll overheat spamming Flame Burst". As if they didn't do that already and as if cleanse took every burn off every time all the time. They actually do need to make it harder to get off a railshot, but give it back infinite procs, that way it's the PLAYERS controlling how often they get rail shots off, not the game imposing an artificial "here, rail shot every 6 seconds". Much more interesting, much more balanced, truly L2P if you keep getting eaten by rail shots. Not that every class has cleanses, which introduces its own dilemna, but this kind of thought process is what makes balancing so hard. Most people who suggest changes stop at the step prior to "Not that every class has cleanses" because they only think of their own class and what changes they want.

[Kehtal]

Although, if you make cleanse the fix, then how do healers manage to watch for DoTs on their team with the current TTK, not just that of PT/Vanguard but the other high dps classes?

[Daiyukie]

Although, if you make cleanse the fix, then how do healers manage to watch for DoTs on their team with the current TTK, not just that of PT/Vanguard but the other high dps classes?

 

By improving the UI is my first suggestion.. I can't tell who has what debuff/buff o.0 I'm just all for any change other than simply "nerf that ability". There are always more interesting fixes available unless for some reason you gave a class the ability to deal 12k damage in one ability (where health is ~20k and there are no defensive cooldowns to adequately negate this ability; if every class can just dodge/resist/something it then fine). Otherwise your balance team probably needs to be slapped.

[Kehtal]

By improving the UI is my first suggestion.. I can't tell who has what debuff/buff o.0 I'm just all for any change other than simply "nerf that ability". There are always more interesting fixes available unless for some reason you gave a class the ability to deal 12k damage in one ability (where health is ~20k and there are no defensive cooldowns to adequately negate this ability; if every class can just dodge/resist/something it then fine). Otherwise your balance team probably needs to be slapped.

 

Oh I wholeheartedly agree. I was just contemplating being a solo healer in a WZ vs a team that actually pays attention, and being responsible for dot cleansing as well as traditional healing. Of course, you're screwed either way there, really.

 

Cleansing was easy in WoW, but then I controlled my UI and which affects showed.

Edited June 23, 2012 by Kehtal

[Daiyukie]

Oh I wholeheartedly agree. I was just contemplating being a solo healer in a WZ vs a team that actually pays attention, and being responsible for dot cleansing as well as traditional healing. Of course, you're screwed either way there, really.

 

Cleansing was easy in WoW, but then I controlled my UI and which affects showed.

 

I still think putting a cleanse effect on some otherwise "bad" heals would be a nice elegant change. Use your normal cleanse on high health targets, use that weaker heal to cleanse as well because the lost DoT damage makes up for the less healing, but opens the door for direct-burst to punch a hole in someone's chest and encourages pressure + well-timed burst rather than just burst-burst-burst.

[SinnedQWERTY]

Stop ignoring pt's ... stop running after the glowsticks...

 

They got 1 bloody defensive CD.

 

They melt (pun intended) if focused. They need to close within 4 meters to do their thing... no speed, no jump also.

(If the 45sec pull is a problem... I really don't know what to say with all the glowsticks jumping everywhere on a way shorter CD)

 

It's not that hard.

Edited June 23, 2012 by SinnedQWERTY

[maticlandarr]

Stop ignoring pt's ... stop running after the glowsticks...

 

They got 1 bloody defensive CD.

 

They melt (pun intended) if focused. They need to close within 4 meters to do their thing... no speed, no jump also.

 

It's not that hard.

 

10 meters but yeah youre pretty much correct.