Sorcerer needs a defensive cooldown

[Varicite]

I always thought Force Shroud should be a base SI ability. Just give them no talent to improve it so it's always 3s duration/60s CD.

 

Let's just make Static Barrier baseline instead, and then take away all of the Sorc talents to improve it.

[Gidoru]

I mean its their job after all.

 

Too bad they suck at it.

[Varicite]

Too bad they suck at it.

 

So bad that they got fired and it's someone else's job now.

[Slashtwo]

Bubble on 30s cooldown, it's the same thing the other ranged DPS classes have (shield probe on sniper, BH cooldown etc). You're not supposed to have any durability as a DPS caster unless you're being guarded/healed >.>

 

BH Cooldown = 2 mins /1min pyro tree

Sniper Shield Proper 45 seconds

Juggernaut Saber Ward 3 mins

[Kirin]

I agree, you guys do need something to help you last a little bit longer. Once I Force Leap you and use Master Strike, your bubble is gone before the last tick(which I've crit WH Sorcs with for around 3.5-4k). You have to wait 4 seconds after the leap before you can even knock me back and force sprint away, by then my leap has 11 seconds on CD, which is the only window you get to kite me. If you actually start dealing decent damage I can just pop Saber Ward, but come on, like I need to; you're not about to hit me for the damage I'm about to deal you.

 

Sages and Sorcs are just too easy for melee. Even skilled players just can't kite well enough to make up the difference in survivability. They need a decent DCD, nothing great but at least a little more survivability. Or if they're going to be free kills at least make them free kills with better damage potential.

[Kirin]

Did not paint a dire picture just stated what must be done for Sorcerer to be viable for rated. To put it in short as of right now since there is no rated and ELO, sorcerer is fine (because only 4 man premades) however once rated comes no TOP RATED TEAM will be running a sorcerer unless they do something about it. If I wasn't the in-game leader of my own team I would gladly give my spot up to a Tankassassin.

 

 

 

I am of the belief that nerfing shouldn't be the way to go for MMO's. People who play those classes enjoy it, probably cause they have high burst, high utility, high surviveability etc. By nerfing those classes it will result in quite a large disgruntled player base and in general a lesser skill ceiling / fewer mechanics to compete against. If instead BW was to add abilities/buff the rest then all classes would be fun and challenging to play. I think thats how they should do it.

 

Good-Balanced (A.K.A OP Classes & Builds)

- Rage Juggernaut

- Anhilation Marauder

- Pyro PT

- DPS Operative

- Healing Operative

- Healing Mercenary

- Tankassassin

 

Under powered classes that need to be buffed or fixed

- Sorcerer heals

- Sorcerer DPS

- Mercenary DPS

- Deception Tankassasin

- Vengeance Jugg -?? (Not so sure about this one)

- Lethality Operative

 

Sniper falls in between those two sets. So not quite sure what to do with them .

 

Although the key is to buff while increasing the skill ceiling to master the class, not give us ezmode buffs like improving the static barrier etc.

 

I couldn't even begin to name all the things wrong with that list, but if you think there's anything good or balanced about DPS Operatives or Healing Mercs, your observations on class balance are...lacking. Both of those specs are free kills in 1.2.

 

But PLEASE listen to this guy and buff Vengeance Juggernauts/Vigilance Guardians. Those OP Healing Mercs and DPS Ops take more than one button to kill. Make my Master Strike ignore armor and line of sight, with a talented 200% damage increase.

[Myschief]

It has been my observation that BW has tried very hard to make players relient on each other to be successful. If tank classes are a powerful as you seem to think, there should be enough guards to go around. If a Jugg or PT does not have somebody else guarded and is not guarding you, either ask for a guard or let him die. You have six other teammates that can use your assistance. If you know the enemy has stealth, ask the BHs on the team to start probing and then position/kite is those areas.

 

Sacrifices needed to be made in some areas if a class is going to shine in others. I wish I could negate 2.5k damage to mutliple teammates rather than slap a 4k HoT, that requires the target takes damage prior to every tick, on a single target. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. I dueled against a healing Sage while traited for heals myself. Between the bublbe and salvation, everything I do is a waste of cells and you think Sorcorers and Sages should get more defense on top of that? I do not want to think about how useless my damage would be if burst DPS could not get through your defenses. One on one, burst is the only thing getting through your defenses reliably.

[Gidoru]

I couldn't even begin to name all the things wrong with that list, but if you think there's anything good or balanced about DPS Operatives or Healing Mercs, your observations on class balance are...lacking. Both of those specs are free kills in 1.2.

 

But PLEASE listen to this guy and buff Vengeance Juggernauts/Vigilance Guardians. Those OP Healing Mercs and DPS Ops take more than one button to kill. Make my Master Strike ignore armor and line of sight, with a talented 200% damage increase.

 

I take it back sorry Kirin i got confused.

Edited June 3, 2012 by Gidoru

[Ntranced]

Original poster has a point, don't understand some of the replies to be honest.

 

No way a 1.3 Sorc would be included in a dedicated, skilled 8 man - unless there was nothing else available. Even being the utility class is not going to get you there, unless of course its Huttball only we are talking about.

[Caanon]

I play an infilitration shadow and watchmen sentinel.

 

I have no idea where these 2 talents are located in trees, just know that a couple healers on my server have them.

 

You want the talents that root on knockback, and stuns enemies when your sheild drops, along with knowing how to kite those 2 things are the most annoying for melee trying to kill you.

[dcgregorya]

Sorcs are fine. Save/use your stuns appropriately and bubble will be the only defensive CD you need.

[dcgregorya]

Original poster has a point, don't understand some of the replies to be honest.

 

No way a 1.3 Sorc would be included in a dedicated, skilled 8 man - unless there was nothing else available. Even being the utility class is not going to get you there, unless of course its Huttball only we are talking about.

 

Your sorc? Definately not. Some sorcs though? Absolutely.

[Calista_ZK]

Sorcs are fine. Save/use your stuns appropriately and bubble will be the only defensive CD you need.

 

ONE stun please, well, in most cases...I had to correct this because yes, you can talent on the AOE stun...but if you are 31 balance forget that one.

 

And bubble will only prolong that view from the respawn for a little while in ranked WZ.

Edited June 3, 2012 by Calista_ZK

[Calista_ZK]

1. LOL? Undying Rage fine, almost every reasonable and unbiased person should agree its too much. But seriously you're complianing about Force Shroud and think BW 'got it wrong'? Maybe you should actually try playing an Assassin before complaining about something like that, because without Force Shroud Assassin would literally be the dead last by a huge margin as the worst class in the game. You shouldn't assume that some sages don't play an assassin- even without force shroud my assassin would be just fine, thank you. Don't you use anything else?

 

2. If DPS sorc were smart, they would use 2 set / 2 set, combining DPS set with healing set for -3 seconds off Static Barrier as the 4 set on the DPS set is nearly worthless. But then most are too bad to even consider it. probably for a good reason....

 

 

3. Yes Sorc are pretty squishy, its too bad then that 90% of them just stand there taking a beating instead of kiting. The ones that are good and do know how to kite do CONSIDERABLY better. So basically learn to kite.

Seriously one of the stupidest myths....basically you probably haven't read any of the previous posts outlining melee/ranged CD discrepancies and why they may not be ABLE to kite in some situations?

[Lanimal]

I couldn't even begin to name all the things wrong with that list, but if you think there's anything good or balanced about DPS Operatives or Healing Mercs, your observations on class balance are...lacking. Both of those specs are free kills in 1.2.

 

But PLEASE listen to this guy and buff Vengeance Juggernauts/Vigilance Guardians. Those OP Healing Mercs and DPS Ops take more than one button to kill. Make my Master Strike ignore armor and line of sight, with a talented 200% damage increase.

 

I said I wasn't so sure about Vengeance Juggs (Dont go up against that many pure vengeance on my server, mostly immortal-vengeance hybrids or rage). And both those builds are good.

 

As far as merc healers are concerned, I dont think you have fought a couple really good one. They are tanky as all hell. Yes if you time your CC with their uninterruptable shield then you can kill them but realistically a good MERC healer (like the one on my team) won't telegraph that bubble so easily. He will play around your cooldowns to choose the most opportune moment to utilize that shield and go back to top health. They are tankier than some tanks with guard on.

 

DPS Operative post 1.2 is balanced. Pre 1.2 it was OP. I don't think it is a weak class in fact a well-played DPS Operative is better than a sniper for a ranked team. As they are versatile, they can be excellent in attack (focus firing, hit and run tactics) and great in defense as well (Stealth intercepting while team respawns). Their DPS itself is fairly bursty and again a good DPS operative (although my team does not run one, some of the other teams on our server have some good ones) puts out good DPS if he knows how to utilize his strength go in and out of comboat and DISENGAGE when needed. Actually a lot of 'skilled' players don't know when to DISENGAGE even when they are winning a battle 1v1 because of tunnelvision and greed when in the long run its better to DISENGAGE for the sake of being more objective minded (going to another node) or factoring in the rotating enemies to that node and thinking two steps ahead. There is no better DISENGAGE mechanic other than stealth so....

 

I think I was fairly right on with my previous post with the exception of Vengeance Juggs.

[Lanimal]

Sacrifices needed to be made in some areas if a class is going to shine in others. I wish I could negate 2.5k damage to mutliple teammates rather than slap a 4k HoT, that requires the target takes damage prior to every tick, on a single target. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. I dueled against a healing Sage while traited for heals myself. Between the bublbe and salvation, everything I do is a waste of cells and you think Sorcorers and Sages should get more defense on top of that? I do not want to think about how useless my damage would be if burst DPS could not get through your defenses. One on one, burst is the only thing getting through your defenses reliably.

 

Healer vs Healer is supposed to be a stalemate thats just how the game is balanced. Although the Sorc healer might have a slight advantage in the sense that he has a better resource pool than you, however, you have the opening burst advantage. But in the end the battle is going to take hours. So using a healer vs healer duel as a reasoning for not upping sorcerer survive-ability is flawed. No where in a ranked WZ will you see a Sorcerer Healer and Operative Healer trying to DPS each other.

 

I play an infilitration shadow and watchmen sentinel.

 

I have no idea where these 2 talents are located in trees, just know that a couple healers on my server have them.

 

You want the talents that root on knockback, and stuns enemies when your sheild drops, along with knowing how to kite those 2 things are the most annoying for melee trying to kill you.

 

 

Yeah already mentioned have no issues kiting most classes, especially sentinels. I love kiting sentinels. Its only the three bursty classes that cause me trouble and I understand that not all classes are supposed to tackle every class which is why I am suggesting a small not OP defensive CD that requires a lot of skill to execute and negate one massive burst to allow us to maybe survive for 15 seconds more than the usual 5-10 second burst. They are called Electric Bindings and Backlash by the way.

 

Sorcs are fine. Save/use your stuns appropriately and bubble will be the only defensive CD you need.

 

This is the type of answer that comes from a person who clearly hasn't played the Sorcerer class long enough in a potential rated environment.

[BambulaGTS]

Nice.

 

So you can use 2 dodge relics (1 instantly and another one within 30 sec, or just face to face if they are different ilevel like BM and WH), you can use wz adrenal or rakata armor adrenal.

 

Then use bubble and iceblock everything including thermal detonators, AoEs.

 

Then tank 5 ppl near the door and break it near the end of cap cast bar and while your team jumping from the white wall? Or iceblock near node to prevent cap and let your team use side speeders?

 

Ok. Go ahead.

[Lanimal]

Then tank 5 ppl near the door and break it near the end of cap cast bar and while your team jumping from the white wall? Or iceblock near node to prevent cap and let your team use side speeders?

 

Such biased situational analysis shouldn't even be worthy of a response but I will make one anyway. Ice block will not allow me to 'STOP a CAP' as it won't allow me to use any of my abilities. I would have to disengage it in order to stop a cap and then I am as squishy a kill as I was before. Also in a typical fight of attrition for a node the Sorcerer would be forced to use his ice block earlier because he is an easy focus fire target. One cant always save it for last man alive kind of scenarios.

 

Secondly such a defensive cool down such as ice block would definitely only be a 2-3 second duration and a medium-longish cooldown (1min+). Not asking to be invulnerable AND being able to use my abilities for a longer period of time, skills that other classes arleady have. The whole point of an ice block is to do a 'WELL TIMED RESIST" against a massive burst from the bursty classes. It would require a lot of skill to get the timing down. Think of it as a skill more akin to action MMO playstyle

Edited June 4, 2012 by Lanimal

[BambulaGTS]

Such biased situational analysis shouldn't even be worthy of a response but I will make one anyway. Ice block will not allow me to 'STOP a CAP' as it won't allow me to use any of my abilities. I would have to disengage it in order to stop a cap and then I am as squishy a kill as I was before. Also in a typical fight of attrition for a node the Sorcerer would be forced to use his ice block earlier because he is an easy focus fire target. One cant always save it for last man alive kind of scenarios.

 

Secondly such a defensive cool down such as ice block would definitely only be a 2-3 second duration and a medium-longish cooldown (1min+). Not asking to be invulnerable AND being able to use my abilities for a longer period of time, skills that other classes arleady have. The whole point of an ice block is to do a 'WELL TIMED RESIST" against a massive burst from the bursty classes. It would require a lot of skill to get the timing down. Think of it as a skill more akin to action MMO playstyle

 

As far as I know you can cancel iceblock manually. If your version has it too, then sorc will be the best last stander on the door/node. Just iceblock and wait a good moment to manually cancel it to break a cap with instant.

 

BTW I play such bursty (at least vs sorcs) class - sniper, and believe me in SWTOR there are so many bull abilities/immunities (evasion, force shroud, undying rage ... this could be countless scroll) so I do not even imagine why we need another one.

Edited June 4, 2012 by BambulaGTS

[ComeAndSee]

The problem with Sages is you're too reliant on kiting as your primary source of damage mitigation. If you cannot get away from your opponents than there's nothing you can really do unless you're being protected.

 

Healing Sages for example are too reliant on their channeled heal as their primary heal. Your big heal is too slow to cast and easy to interrupt and your fast heal is very weak. Our HOT crits initially for only about 1-1.4k~ and ticks for very low amounts. You basically have to use LOS to heal yourself whenever possible and try to fake cast.

 

Sages ability to heal themselves under pressure is very limited is the TLDR.

Edited June 4, 2012 by ComeAndSee

[Darth_Philar]

I'd be ok with changing Force Slow so that it lasts 6 seconds and the CD is 5 (just like the main kiting tool of Hunters from WoW, Concussion Shot). This allows the Sorc to have 100% snare uptime against a single target allowing our pathetic dots (since we have no real instant DPS abilities) to eventually whittle down our foe far enough to be able to risk standing still long enough to get a cast off to finish them.

[ComeAndSee]

I'd be ok with changing Force Slow so that it lasts 6 seconds and the CD is 5 (just like the main kiting tool of Hunters from WoW, Concussion Shot). This allows the Sorc to have 100% snare uptime against a single target allowing our pathetic dots (since we have no real instant DPS abilities) to eventually whittle down our foe far enough to be able to risk standing still long enough to get a cast off to finish them.

 

Then it takes away from our time to heal ourselves. Some classes you can't run from like Pyrotech's with their undispellable spammable slows. Really slows are more of a way to deter people from chasing you than an actual effective way most of the time. If that person is really determined to keep going after you than they'll catch up to you eventually.

Edited June 4, 2012 by ComeAndSee

[Darth_Philar]

Then it takes away from our time to heal ourselves. Some classes you can't run from like Pyrotech's with their undispellable spammable slows. Really slows are more of a way to deter people from chasing you than an actual effective way most of the time.

 

You can't kite ranged classes, you have to LOS them. Not always an option, unfortunately, as a result of map layout, but it is a heck of a lot easier to LOS someone as a Sorc than as a WoW Hunter (minimum range + casted resource generation = horribad design).

[Itukaaj]

What sorcerer needs:

 

While under the effects of sprint immunity to snares, grips and cc.

 

An ability to cause enemies to drop target.

 

Our interrupt to be on a super short cd if not spamable

 

Affliction and Crushing Darkness to tick without breaking cc.

 

The above to tick for more damage since we don't have burst our dot has to scale more meaningfully.

[Darth_Philar]

What sorcerer needs:

 

While under the effects of sprint immunity to snares, grips and cc.

 

An ability to cause enemies to drop target.

 

Our interrupt to be on a super short cd if not spamable

 

Affliction and Crushing Darkness to tick without breaking cc.

 

The above to tick for more damage since we don't have burst our dot has to scale more meaningfully.

 

I did render a suggestion a while back that the ability Mind Trick be given some kind of PvP utility. My suggestion at that time was either a target drop, or a single target invisibility (i.e. you become invisible to the person you used it on, all other hostiles can still see you).