How did it come to this?

[Driveinns]

That's pretty funny because the exact same thing can be said about a lot of gamers. They think that because they don't like a game or some aspects of a game, they know more about what a developer "should have done" than the developers themselves.

 

The biggest "problem" with SWTOR is it's maturity (how long it's been around). If people would get over their incessant need for instant gratification and let the game have time to mature, most of the problems would fix themselves. But since nearly everyone posting threads like this wants the game to be perfect RIGHT NOW, which can't possibly happen, they decide to say the game is a failure and proclaim that they are abandoning the sinking ship before it's too late.

 

The best thing that Bioware can do is to take their time and fix things right even if it takes too long for all the folks who need instant gratification. Odds are that those folks won't get their gratification from the other games they're looking forward to, either. And by that time, maybe SWTOR will have evolved into something that can keep them busy for a couple more months, until their need for something new and exciting kicks in and makes them leave again.

 

Amen brother!

[aceshocker]

WoW wasnt built in a day. They had, and at times still have issues with patching and things. The number of servers open on launch was a bit much for TOR. But that will be fixed. Give BW time.

[Plumz]

How many times has WoW been called a sinking ship over the years? And it ended up with 12 million players.

 

SWTOR is doing fine functionality wise. The problem is with the impatient twits who forget that WoW didnt have character transfers or a dungeon finder when it launched yet they expect SWTOR to have all of WoWs features at launch.

 

WoW didn't need char transfers because there was no server with 50 people on it primetime. WoW didn't need server merges because of xrealms PVP BG's and dungeons. I rememeber a post in January calling to heavens and hell to BW NOT to implement LFG tool (especially xserver) and how that would destroy communities. Everybody wanted to play with their friends and not get bunched up with strangers etc.

 

Where are your friends now? At least with xserver pvp/fp you would have a chance to do something with other people, instead of sitting in a fleet with 20 like you waiting for the next patch repopulating your server to the glory days. Wake up mate. And I have another thing coming for you. Nobody knows the numbers for sure, but I wouldn;t be surprised once august hits and 1.3 dissapoints even more people when all dust settles you will find out there is less than 25k of subscribers out of those glorious 1.7mln in Jan. It certainly feels like that's about the number of people playing these days all across the board.

 

Wonder how will that settle with the "500k" mark BW says for profitablity of their frenchaise...I don't know where people see those 1.3 mln playing... Certainly not in US server list. Is Europe/Oceanic that filled up server wise?

[Rikeryo]

Wonder how will that settle with the "500k" mark BW says for profitablity of their frenchaise...I don't know where people see those 1.3 mln playing... Certainly not in US server list. Is Europe/Oceanic that filled up server wise?

 

well, there's exactly one german server, the jedi tower, that currently hits the 150people@fleet mark in the evenings, it's like the fatman, but sadly PvE. every other server is literally dead.

 

http://www.torstatus.net/shards/eu

 

a good example would be jar'kai sword, the most populated pvp server. at least it used to be. nowadays it got 30 ppl on imperial fleet @ weekends.

Edited June 3, 2012 by Rikeryo

[Plumz]

JC and Fatman are only US servers with 200+ people on fleet coutning both sides gives us roughly 400-500 on fleet alone. I am giving them another 500-800 spread over planets so that would rougly crank maybe 3k of those 2. Around 8 servers stand lets give em 500-700 count and rest light which from what many post got to be less than 200 server for sure.

 

I honestly belife there are no mory that 25-30k people actually playing the game primetime. Not over 1 mln. Sure they might have that many subs still active but... that doesn't mean that many people are actually playing the game...

 

And people wonder in general when the next chapter will happen:) I say in 6 months. BW will hire a couple of good sketch artist and send their former subscribers comic strips via e-malis...

[TUXs]

Point me to this record. As far as I'm aware, BW have moved pretty fast regarding bugs, updates, fixes, content etc.There's been 1.2gig+ added since retail launch.

 

How's the sound bug working out for you? How about /wave'ing from vehicles like you were supposed to be able to do on January 4th?

 

Good record huh?! Pretty fast? I strongly disagree. 600+ Devs two weeks ago and we are stuck where we are? 1.3 is going be to void of "content" (or "content light") and you think they move fast?

[Plumz]

Yep 1.3 is a leak patch a desperate try to save the sinking game. I think (and BW record proves it so far) if it hits and bugs the hell out of things in game even die hard fans will say enough is enough.

 

Why would it be glitchy? Well, why woldn't it be? Every patch up to date screw something, some really badly other lighter but they all did. And BW record? Yes, how about the playerbase pointing out that things got fubared by the patch and BW repeatedly refusing to acknwoledge that or even openly laying things are fine and it is our hardware fault?

 

Lots of people are warning BW not to fubar this patch. I learned long time ago, past performance is the most solid indicator of future one. Lets be honest. The same coders working on previous screw ups are working on this patch. You think?

[MbaxterBeau]

I think its very hard for Bioware to do two things.

 

One is to ADMIT they messed up and really try an implement some core design changes and direction. Game developers often fall into thr trap of thinking they "know more" about what gamers want than gamers do. Its a rock star like mentality at times.

 

I believe the second issue is that once this much money is invested down a certain design path there is none to alter course if things dont go the right way.

 

I love the voice over. Loved it. I would gladly trade all that away except for the class stories to have more meaningful MMO staples fully developed and implemented.

 

Totally agree. Very well said.

[Sparklehorse]

Point me to this record. As far as I'm aware, BW have moved pretty fast regarding bugs, updates, fixes, content etc.There's been 1.2gig+ added since retail launch.

 

Yet we sit here now, spread across way too many servers, begging for transfers that should have happened months ago...

[Kalfear]

I think its very hard for Bioware to do two things.

 

One is to ADMIT they messed up and really try an implement some core design changes and direction. Game developers often fall into thr trap of thinking they "know more" about what gamers want than gamers do. Its a rock star like mentality at times.

 

I believe the second issue is that once this much money is invested down a certain design path there is none to alter course if things dont go the right way.

 

I love the voice over. Loved it. I would gladly trade all that away except for the class stories to have more meaningful MMO staples fully developed and implemented.

 

I think your right on the first one Kilo, but not the 2nd one

 

I dont think it would cost major money to add whats needed.

 

Paazaak in the grand scheme of things would be a very small update

Swoop Racing, same. Same update

Holo chess again small

Pit fighting might be a little bigger but still nothing outragious

These 4 things should be Bioware priority items IMO as they create interaction and thus socialization and community building (plus give players a reason to even enter a cantina really)

 

DAoC RVR would be a much bigger change but they have the fundation already with Mythic being so big a part of this game, not to mantion the space already on illum (all thats required is the desire and will)

 

Rift type public events would be the biggest cost and biggest over haul to add social content, but this can be delayed as long as the other things put in.

 

But none of this is on their priority list far as we know.

 

Mergers and transfers will not stop the bleeding because the reasons that created the issues that caused the declining population will remain. Mergers and transfers are needed as so many servers dead but alone they are just patch jobs.

 

I think you nailed it with #1, EA just refuses to admit their concept of a MMORPG didnt fly.

Im still playing till my account runs out but most days im online with 1-3 other people on planets and maybe 15 on fleet during the busy prime time hours. Ive taken to just turning sound off and listening to audio books while I solo through game. Just drop any heroics I get and dont even look at flashpoints or pvp.

 

EA needs to admit their short comings and do the moves required to fix the game

But I dont think the changes are that costly up front!

And yet I really dont think the changes will come. If you cant tell by now the problem is lack of ingame community, probably will never be able to tell sadly.

[Mrcheezle]

EA was voted worst company in America 2012. Second place Bank of America (gasp) wasn't even close to EA in voting. If you think they are going to dump money into a game that has already failed and cost them millions, your sadly wrong. They also just laid off the majority of the devs that worked on swtor, so good luck with this major overhaul that your waiting for.

 

Game is in maintanence mode. Nothing more to see here.

[spareme]

Let the game die with dignity. just leave a forum for the fanboys and whiners to flame each other to death.

[Bladehamster]

I'm a big Star Wars fan, and i signed up very early, just cancelled recurring 3-month subscription.

Just too bored.

[thomasgallant]

EA was voted worst company in America 2012. Second place Bank of America (gasp) wasn't even close to EA in voting. If you think they are going to dump money into a game that has already failed and cost them millions, your sadly wrong. They also just laid off the majority of the devs that worked on swtor, so good luck with this major overhaul that your waiting for.

 

Game is in maintanence mode. Nothing more to see here.

 

while i agree they wont put extra money into a game that failed. i disagree when you say it cost them millions.. ea and bioware have done nothing but make money... even from the ;'failed' game.. they have already reported getting their 200 million back from development.. and anythign after that (besides operating costs) is profit. and i am sure they are making a profit.

 

as for firing the majority of their devs.. i believe you are wrong there as well.. if you have a link to prove that point i would love to read it..

 

maintanence mode isnt always a bad thing while they wait for some important parts of the game ( transfers for one) to be completed.

 

 

yes the game is in trouble, but not as bad as you seem to think...

[BJWyler]

My issues with TOR are...

 

Dull Combat we have done in WoW for 7 years...

 

Gear grind is just that a grind it isn't fun nor enjoyable in anyway...

And I never saw anything to indicate that it would be any different. I happen to enjoy the combat - I am coming from GW1 and was able to pick up the SWTOR mechanics right away, a big plus for me. Gear Grind is a typical mechanic in MMOs and not game-breaking for me.

 

Lack of unique species for a starwars game this is pretty big...

Design decisions have to be made - there's nothing to say that future species can't be added in later, and they have stated numerous times that they will. The Star Wars universe is pretty big - much bigger than can really be contained in a single game no matter how much development time it has.

 

Crafting ends up being kinda useless...

This isn't SWG 2.0, nor should it be. I do think the system can use a bit of tweaking as it does seem the initial foray into crafting and RE items is clunky, but I think the overall simplicity of the system is right for the game.

 

Is no real choice in game...all end the same way regardless of choices...

You can only have so much choice in an MMO where players are all following along the same set paths. I do agree that a bit more sandboxing in this area might be nice, but ultimately our choices have to have a limited affect for the type of game that this is.

 

Still balancing issues in leveling game, especially on voss

 

Gear looks terrible and not very starwarsy...

 

Classes being locked per faction this is one of my biggest gripes... where is my imperial trooper? only the jedi/sith should have been locked.

 

SI story being about artifacts rather then manipulation, and sith hierarchy...

 

Leveling progression can be tweaked, and it appears they are working on it, but that is something that can't really be properly tested beforehand - that's one of those things that you can only really see after launch,

 

Gear look is personal preference. I don't like some of the gear models, but I can say that for every game I played. I certainly didn't expect and don't want gear that taken right out of the movies - this is a different time period after all, so for the most part the look of the gear doesn't bother me at all.

 

The class choices are similar to that of the species choices. For launch you have to make certain decisions on what the game will start with, and can expand after that. I certainly wouldn't be surprised to see future expansions bring Imperial Troopers and Republic Operatives.

 

Class stories - again perhaps personal preference. I have played each class story at least up through the Origin Worlds at this point and have really enjoyed each of them overall at this point (the Jedi/Sith I have played the through the longest).

 

Added what? Custom UI? Bug fixes? Legacy fluff that nobody cares about? We've been for 6 moths and are still paying for beta. And that's now what it was offered to us in the adds...

 

Ask any long term SWG or even 5+ years wow players why did they play for so long? Gear? Fluff? Functionality? They all came here and soon realized this game dosn't have it. And sad part it's not going to have it with next patch or (most likely) even next xpac. It is the design of it, missing important component of what makes mmo. And no patch will change that. Not even server transfers will, you sure will get to play with people, but well you will see yourself soon enough what I mean. No worry.

 

As I have said, this isn't SWG 2.0, nor should it be. And how did the 5+ year WoW players get to be 5+ years? By sticking with the game and watching it mature. WoW added a ton of content in those 5+ years. To expect any MMO game to launch with the amount of content a game that has been out for multiple years is unrealistic. And to use the excuse that what may be MMO staples now and should be in every game is also unrealistic - just because they are staples for one or ten games doesn't mean that they should be in every game at launch.

 

Yes, players are willing to wait for certain things (new content mostly -- such as new Ops, Flashpoints, WZs), but not a lot of things. The 1.2 UI should have been in at launch, group finder should've been in at launch, all of the current end-game content should've been in at launch. You cannot compare this game to what WoW had at launch, because WoW didn't have to compete with nearly as much content in other games as TOR does (mostly from WoW and its installed player base). BW doesn't have time to just take its time and iron out the wrinkles, because too many other games are breathing down their proverbial necks.

 

And you cannot compare breadth and depth of features in games that are less than a year old with games that have had years to properly develop and release content and features. To expect every new game to launch with all current WoW like features and content would effectively double development time and make releasing any new game pointless.

 

BJ

[Darthshnooky]

And you cannot compare breadth and depth of features in games that are less than a year old with games that have had years to properly develop and release content and features. To expect every new game to launch with all current WoW like features and content would effectively double development time and make releasing any new game pointless.

 

BJ

 

Absolutely you can. You personally may think it unreasonable to make these comparisons, but you do not have the same viewpoint as all players everywhere. Clearly, many MANY players did expect many of the features found in WoW to be in TOR at launch. Whether you agree or not, it has definitely hurt TOR in the long run to launch without a lot of these things.

 

It would NOT double development time to add in things like moddable UI, group finder, xserver functionality or server transfers, better guild features, etc. These are all things done by teams OTHER than the main content development team. We know TOR had a dedicated UI team during development (look back at the Friday map update that caused such a ruckus); they should've been working on the customizable UI that we got in 1.2 for launch. Group finder and Xserver functionality have nothing to do with in-game content and definitely could've been done by people on another team. Guild features are the same way. All of these things should have been in the game at launch.

 

Once again, you personally may not feel it is appropriate to compare a new release to a game that has been out for 7-8 years, but too bad. People have/do/will make that comparison. Players (well, reasonable players at least) are willing to accept a small amount of end-game content at launch -- to expect otherwise is ludicrous. But they are much less willing to wait on things that are considered basic features.

 

the year for the game is still only around what half way so they still got lots of time 2 get things to what u all want but people always want more i forone am happy with the way it is and lvling new chars with the time i play 1.3 is coming 1.4 is also coming after that all in this year and no telling how many more patches

 

Here's the problem, your argument (which is made by many people, i just chose yours at random) is flawed due to money. There's no way BW/EA has made their money back on this game. They don't make $60 on each sale, they make a fraction of that for anything sold through a retail store (which is at least half of their sales of the box so far). Add to that the ongoing costs of employee pay and server maintenance and they're also not making $15/month off each player in profit -- revenue yes, but not profit. They're still in the red on this game and will be for some time.

 

A company is willing to ride it out when something is growing and they can see its benefits as a long-term investment. TOR, however, is NOT growing at the moment and that just means less and less money coming in. EA's history with these types of situations is decidedly stacked against BW/TOR when it comes to this and so many of us are concerned about how things will change if accounts continue to go down. With less money coming in, more devs will be let go and less time will be put into this game. You say they have plenty of time still, but many of us are worried that they do not.

 

We're not "doom and gloom" (well, not all of us) people, we're realistic and many of us want this game to succeed. As subs continue to decline, the chances for that success go with it.

[blur]

How many times has WoW been called a sinking ship over the years? And it ended up with 12 million players.

 

If you think something similar is going to happen with TOR, seriously, don't hold your breath. You'll only hurt yourself.

Edited June 3, 2012 by blur

[Ki-Tau]

Agree with the original thread posting from Plumz completely and would like to offer some solutions as another suggested:

 

TOR needs to mimic and add the following SWG elements and they may blow all other MMOs out of the water:

 

1) Rich, complex and varied crafting and resource gathering system

2) Player housing, guild cities and atmospheric flight

3) Interactive buffing systems

4) Space engineering and flight / battles that allow more freedom and customisation - plus social interaction for grouped players within larger ships (TOR space currently sux IMO)

5) More sandboxing for all planets

6) Intelligent movement for mobs so that they wander outside set patterns (or at least appear to)

7) Heroics / instances that require alot of thought / planning and co-ordination to win rather than just click stuff and kill loads of golds

8) Improved dueling and social gathering in places like cantinas to enhance the social experience

 

They had a fantastic opportunity to take everything great out of SWG - all the bits that kept ppl returning - and lose the not so great parts - then add their own special expertese with the nice graphics and storylines / speech etc - they missed it and ended up with a dull non-addictive game that is very easy to put down.

Edited June 3, 2012 by Ki-Tau
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[blur]

They had a fantastic opportunity to take everything great out of SWG - all the bits that kept ppl returning - and lose the not so great parts - then add their own special expertese with the nice graphics and storylines / speech etc - they missed it and ended up with a dull non-addictive game that is very easy to put down.

 

Yep, they sure did. Years back, even before the existence of the first TOR forum, when there was a group of us talking on the main Bioware forums about the rumoured Star Wars MMO, I kept saying over and over and over and over, until I was blue in the face, that they were likely to go the WoW route, but what they should do is tack some nice sandbox stuff onto the themepark. Why? because it keeps people engaged, even when the themepark gets old. Did they listen? Did anyone listen? Nope. Of course not. If you're not a game designer, you apparantly can't have good ideas.

[sumuji]

I have no clue what people are finding in this game that is sooooooooo gamebreaking. It's a traditional type MMORPG. It's thin in some areas while doing exceptionally well in others but there is nothing that screams out failure at all. If you're going by the exodus to fuel your own distaste this game has seen the same outflow as every other game, whom the majority are the stereotypical "going back to WoW" or "too much like WoW" types and by no means a representation of what normal unbiased people think.

 

I don't know it's just leaving me so confused like some is so horrible in this game that has elluded me so far. I mean I've been playing these games for 12 years and haven't skipped but only a few titles and I think TOR is a good game. I suspect any game not made by Blizzard will suffer the same.

[Tsillah]

I think it's not very smart to build a MMO and not have a contingency plan in place to deal with population loss.

 

MMO makers should know by now that this is a given and not a possible scenario. It's rare that a game starts and grows. Usually a game will decline with a matter of months because not everybody will like the game. A simple reality.

 

The game itself is quite good in my view. A lot has been fixed since the start and faster than with other games I've played.

 

But I do think BW should have been smart enough to have a plan in place and the fact that they don't but actually are putting it together as we speak, means they were ill-prepared for something that is 99% likely to happen.

 

So I blame them for believing their own hype and thinking that they could make a MMO that would start big and would only grow from there or stay stable to maintain the numbers. This was never a realistic expectation. What's killing the game is mostly the snowball effect of people leaving.

 

I haven't left yet, but character transfers should've been available 3 months after launch to stop the tide.

 

Sure, I hope things can still be turned around but I needed these transfers last month, not next month. And for many people it's already entirely too late. This game will not succeed or improve until we have better numbers on servers. Less servers is fine. Too many servers with small communities is not.

[blur]

I don't know it's just leaving me so confused like some is so horrible in this game that has elluded me so far. I mean I've been playing these games for 12 years and haven't skipped but only a few titles and I think TOR is a good game. I suspect any game not made by Blizzard will suffer the same.

 

Well mate, 100s of 1000s of people have been walking out the door, at a steady rate, since the end of the first month. If it's eluded you so far, then I guess it's eluded you. But can you at least acknowledge that a game doesn't have people walking out since the first month, nor losing 25% of subscribers in a matter of a few months, if it's hunky dory?

Edited June 3, 2012 by blur

[NasherUK]

TBH they should just give the community the mod, mapping and scripting tools and let them see what they can come up with (I'm talking small content like gear design and mini-games, not core game impacting stuff like ops or classes). If it's good enough and properly fits the TOR theme it could make it in to the game. This is what some indie developers are doing and it works quite well. You can also make vastly more content this way Edited June 3, 2012 by NasherUK

[Ki-Tau]

Added what? Custom UI? Bug fixes? Legacy fluff that nobody cares about? We've been for 6 moths and are still paying for beta. And that's now what it was offered to us in the adds...

 

Ask any long term SWG or even 5+ years wow players why did they play for so long? Gear? Fluff? Functionality? They all came here and soon realized this game dosn't have it. And sad part it's not going to have it with next patch or (most likely) even next xpac. It is the design of it, missing important component of what makes mmo. And no patch will change that. Not even server transfers will, you sure will get to play with people, but well you will see yourself soon enough what I mean. No worry.

 

Absolutely correct - (speaking as SWG Vet) - Nail on head and reason I have 77 days left on my sub b4 I hit the shadows and hope they give us a decent SW MMO to play, at which point I will come straight back and stay for as long as it runs - if not then my money stays out of BW & LA Coffers

Edited June 3, 2012 by Ki-Tau
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[Aerevan]

Yep, they sure did. Years back, even before the existence of the first TOR forum, when there was a group of us talking on the main Bioware forums about the rumoured Star Wars MMO, I kept saying over and over and over and over, until I was blue in the face, that they were likely to go the WoW route, but what they should do is tack some nice sandbox stuff onto the themepark. Why? because it keeps people engaged, even when the themepark gets old. Did they listen? Did anyone listen? Nope. Of course not. If you're not a game designer, you apparantly can't have good ideas.

Well, I think the WoW route could've worked out. They however, failed miserably in doing so. Have the developers at BioWare never wondered why Blizzard overhauled the old content? Why they streamlined it into something far more fast paced than it was in vanilla WoW? They could've known! Ohlen stating that having multiple players bash into a boss for minutes wasn't heroic! Yet, that's what the gameplay comes down to!

 

Solo gameplay is 'difficult' in the sense that mobs are strong (fire damage debuff + 3 mobs stacking fire DoT's is burning your tanking companion like mad - almost can't heal that), but it offers nothing challenging in the sense that it requires any skill. People aren't going to put up with a game that tried to copy vanilla WoW, even Blizzard realized that when they overhauled the content with Cata.