Reputation: What's really hurting SWTOR

[funkykafka]

Time spent following TOR pre-launch = 3 years

Time spent enjoying TOR before I was bored = 2 months

Account cancelled in sheer disbelief that this was Bioware's best effort

 

Blur, I have to ask: If you've quit the game, why are you on the forums? This is a little like breaking up with a girl & stalking her.

[blur]

Same with LOTRO, people that post on the forums almost always are venting.

 

And with good reason. When Turbine turned that game F2P, they totally and utterly destroyed it.

[Dezzi]

SWTOR is hurting SWTOR. It's an extremely mediocre game held back by the developers' adherent refusal to break away from the WoW paradigm. Word of mouth is indeed a problem, but it's too late to fix first impressions--arguably the most important impression a game can make.

 

I doubt many people will come back to SWTOR until we see some really significant changes. Until then, BioWare will have to settle for a PR (spin) campaign which focuses on drawing in new players--players who aren't already soured by the state of the game and have little to lose.

 

Too many people blaming players. One minute I'm told the forums represent a minority, and in the next breath I'm being told the forums are the nexus of public opinion on the game. Either the people on the forums represent real and true player sentiments or they don't.

[TOGFelix]

No. And for proof, look no further than Age of Conan.

 

Even after a ton of updates, and becoming a very playable game, and even F2P... it still never recovered.

 

^

This.

 

For those who missed this chapter of MMO history:

 

Launch May 2008, much hype as a pvp centered game with new advances (combos)

 

High graphics, good story & large play areas. A leveling gap prior to max level that left a grind, and no end game.

 

a 1.2 like patch that addressed the leveling gap after most people had hit max & War had been release & many people left. Server population was dead.

 

A server merger was announced and done around 8 months to a year (not sure As I was gone after 6 months)

 

A major expansion around the one year or later mark. Added an true end game & a large new play area.

 

I came back after 3 years... It was a beautiful game, with not many playing it...

 

If THAT had been in at launch, it would still be a heavily played game. It was a case of too little too late...

 

While there is still time for this game, the sands of time are running out for it to keep a large player base.

Edited June 2, 2012 by TOGFelix

[KennethHoover]

I personally think that the main reason that this game is not doing well is that it followed the WoW formula.

 

There is a lot of truth in that statement. I am a big fan of this game and enjoy it a lot, even though I am only a casual player due to time constraints. But I cannot deny there is a lot of truth in what you said. (And it kind of seems that TES:O is going down the same well-beaten path, more's the pity.)

[blur]

There is a lot of truth in that statement. I am a big fan of this game and enjoy it a lot, even though I am only a casual player due to time constraints. But I cannot deny there is a lot of truth in what you said. (And it kind of seems that TES:O is going down the same well-beaten path, more's the pity.)

 

It's extremely true. You only have to look at the passion in the GW2 community where that game is basically everything WoW isn't. They've tossed out the Holy Trinity... the game isn't a gear grind... there's no end game because the end game starts with Level 1... there WvWvW PvP... there's no monthly fee... basically every important thing in the game is different to WoW. And people are REALLY into that.

[dalekjs]

SWTOR is hurting SWTOR. It's an extremely mediocre game held back by the developers' adherent refusal to break away from the WoW paradigm. Word of mouth is indeed a problem, but it's too late to fix first impressions--arguably the most important impression a game can make.

 

I doubt many people will come back to SWTOR until we see some really significant changes. Until then, BioWare will have to settle for a PR (spin) campaign which focuses on drawing in new players--players who aren't already soured by the state of the game and have little to lose.

 

Too many people blaming players. One minute I'm told the forums represent a minority, and in the next breath I'm being told the forums are the nexus of public opinion on the game. Either the people on the forums represent real and true player sentiments or they don't.

 

This really. SWTOR's reputation is well earned, the game has many, many glaring faults, and BW is doing too little in a very long time frame to fix any of it.

 

I also think that the game's basic structure is fundamentally broken. It tries to encompass the best of both single player rpg's and MMO's and ends up doing a mediocre job at both.

[dalekjs]

It's extremely true. You only have to look at the passion in the GW2 community where that game is basically everything WoW isn't. They've tossed out the Holy Trinity... the game isn't a gear grind... there's no end game because the end game starts with Level 1... there WvWvW PvP... there's no monthly fee... basically every important thing in the game is different to WoW. And people are REALLY into that.

 

It really hurts because, to me at least, whenever I look at GW2 I think that this is how SWTOR should have been. BW's talk about how important story is really fits much better with the GW2 structure than with what we got.

[Styxx]

Forums are relevant only to, maybe, 1% of the playerbase.. the vast majority doesn`t give a fluff ... They will play whatever they feel like playing...

 

If a game has that X-Factor they are looking for, they will play it. If it doesn`t.. they won`t.

 

TORtanic and all the pseudo-analysts are relevant only to the Forumites.. which are in no way representative to the general population anyway.

 

Answer to OP`s question is... Bioware.

[xandax]

Nobody gave the game a chance at release, they won't now and the WOW/GW2/Diablo trolls are allowed to build freaking houses in the General Discussion section, that's why this game is in such a massively overblown negative spotlight.

 

Wasn't there about 1.7 million people that gave this game a chance at launch.

Had the game delivered it's potential; that number would have grown. It did not, so it shrunk.

 

Just because you might disagree with the 'negative spotlight' due to personal preference does not mean it is wrong for the many who - for example - are still stuck on; or have left because of; empty servers.

[blur]

It really hurts because, to me at least, whenever I look at GW2 I think that this is how SWTOR should have been. BW's talk about how important story is really fits much better with the GW2 structure than with what we got.

 

I totally agree. If SWTOR was done GW2 style, I would be having a whale of a time in it, right now.

[Frostvein]

I really don't understand how its the player-bases fault that this game isn't that good.

[harry_kpotter]

What? Ranked Warzones is on track for 1.3 and Server TRANSFERS will come in 1.3 with the super server merge coming afterwards, as say 1.3.5.

 

They also said ranked warzones would be in 1.2. LMAO.

[blur]

I really don't understand how its the player-bases fault that this game isn't that good.

 

Because the people in charge don't want to admit that they got it wrong.

[Florial]

Every game is a finite experience. You can't play a game forever. At least I can't. If I get 6 months out of a game then, to me, that game has served it's purpose, which is to give me entertainment as a break from the responsibilities of my life. Game's over, I just move on to another game, whether it's an mmo, shooter, single-player rpg, whatever. I don't ever expect a game to hold my attention for more than 3 to 6 months.

 

Well said funky. I do wish that I could find a game that I could sink my teeth into for years like I have in the past (Asheron's Call 1, EQ2, LoTR and to an extent, WoW) but sadly, I find my more recent experiences in the latest MMOs rather lacking. Both Rift and SWTOR lasted to the six month mark and that was about it. When I find that it is just running dailies, dungeon running, or PvPing for gear, a game quickly loses appeal At least Rift had the collectables for me and I entertained myself for a few months just running around, collecting my shinies, completing collections, and playing the AH a bit. Now fishing is coming to Rift (or perhaps has come) and I may check it out just for that element and to see what they've added. I lasted in WoW a bit longer just because the game had so much content plus the fluff I like (cooking, fishing, archeology, achievements). It took me several months in WoW to get my loremaster titles and I really enjoyed that experience although it was frustrating at times. SWTOR is just bland in the extracurricular activities that I enjoy in an MMO.

 

I don't think people coming to the boards to vent their frustrations is necessarily a bad thing. As long as the posts are constructive and don't devolve into name calling and other nonsense. I know that SWTOR gets bad press in other gaming communities. When I see a SWTOR thread, I always try to give some input and my input is always positive. I think that BioWare did a pretty good job with the game overall (my opinion) but it just lacks the variety for me at endgame. Then again, I don't get too riled up with gaming companies and take it too personally. I do admit that I was mad at Turbine with the Asheron's Call 2 debacle for a long time but I got over it to play LoTR.

 

I admit that I feel very badly for the true Star Wars fans who mourned the passing of SWG and hoped to find a comparable experience in this game. That would be a bitter pill to swallow I must admit.

Edited June 2, 2012 by Florial

[TalkingDinosaur]

No because every positive post gets closed while hate threads by the same fifteen or twenty trolls are allowed to be opened for weeks. It's up to the community manager to stop providing the stage and rocks for those that hate BioWare no matter what, the last one refused to do it...and the new one isn't doing too much in that regard either.

What are you talking about? The majority of positive threads are closed because trolls waddle their way in and change the topic of the thread leading it to be shut down. Troll threads are more than usually closed within the hour.

[Metallistic]

Rayla_Felana still defending SWTOR to the death? Hilarious.

[CadeAssant]

Yeah what will save this game is another 6 months to a year of development, because they released it from beta way to early, which is why they are still fixing bugs and adding features we asked for, for months in Beta. They also need more sandbox style maps and content. The problem with Themepark mmos is that most people leave after they have gone on all the rides. We need content and features that keep people in and not just keep catering to the PVP crowd that yells the loudest.

[Celebrus]

Hey look, another "you guys are ruining this game for me so stop and get happy and fix it!" thread.

 

No thanks.

 

Still not being paid to make this game better, someone is, that person isn't me, until it is I will not care.

 

In other words, do your *********** job BW.

[Lord_Ravenhurst]

I see all coming back until v2.0 if they release great updates.

 

Reputation can change in both directions.

 

So far it´s not a bad game, it´s just not.. there.. yet...

 

All in all one year extra development time is needed

Edited June 2, 2012 by Lord_Ravenhurst

[biRdyxLoCo]

on the plus side, at least they get a lot of traffic with all the complainers, sure the game may have some problems, my server is dead but I have a small group of friends that run dallies and HM Flashpoints, and sometimes when we get lucky we can even do ops. So I say just ignore them and just play tor.

[Kraye]

In my opinion, the single most important factor that is affecting SWTOR's current situation, as well as it's future, is the reputation this game has. I'm not speaking of the content, as I am one of the few who understand that new MMOs aren't always as polished as we want. What I speak of is the perception of the gamer community as a whole towards this game and it's developers.

 

It's a sad fact that many have already denounced this game dead or dying. They call it "TORtanic". They joke about the game going F2P. The game's own community forums are full of topics containing nothing but farewell letters and post-mortems. I'm not even going to go into how many times the Dev team's little "gaffes" have made headlines on gaming websites. This, coupled with current players frustrations towards the Devs (Soon™), and general EA hatred, does not paint a pretty picture.

 

New players look into this game and hear nothing but negativity. Old players are hesitant to return due to bad press or experiences. Even if Bioware manages to fix everything the current player base is calling for, would they be able to bring people in when the current outlook on this game is so incredibly antagonistic? Server transfers and merges will soothe the aches of the current player base, but it's only solving the issue of keeping the current players happy. If anything, the need for these transfers showcases to new players how badly the population has been hurt. It may draw back a few old players who are waiting on this, but I don't see it being enough to change the ever downward trend that SWTOR has been experiencing.

 

So my question to you is this: Is there something that we as a community can do to help fix this game's reputation? Is this an issue only further development can change? Do the community managers/Dev team need to change the way they do things? Or given enough time and content updates, will SWTOR make a miraculous comeback to be the MMO we all want it to be?

 

Total horse-pucky. Create a good game and players are drawn to it in one fashion or another...and settle in for a long time. Its the game itself thats the issue not the players, to blame the players is simply ridiculous.

[Abominant]

I agree OP. It's like a trickle effect or snowball effect.

 

When a dude is sitting on his Fleet on a dead or dying server with noone to play with, he wonders why that is. He asks himself "Man, is anyone else having these problems on their servers? Is there somewhere else I can go to find people to play with?"

 

So naturally, like most people (most not all), he goes to the SWTOR forums to find an answer. Not only does he find an answer, but he discovers that nearly everyone with the exception of a few servers has the same problem. So he joins in with the complaining about dead servers with others of his kind and those type of posts start to take over the positive ones.

 

New people come here and see the state of the game through all the numerous complaints about how there is noone to play with, servers are dead, subscription numbers are dropping fast, EA is laying off a large number of people; Basically, it doesn't look very good. It's kind of like dominos too. When you knock down that first one, it starts a chain reaction and the rest fall with it.

 

Sure, there are alot of people who will defend this game to death, even with it's current obvious problems. I was naive enough to think that nothing was wrong until I started to see my server losing people daily. But eventually, those people will be the only ones left playing this game, the ones who refuse to admit there's a problem.

[Star-ranger]

What we're talking about here is bad 'word of mouth' advertising.

 

People come, they play, they talk.

 

It's the same for SWTOR as it is for WOW or any other game. If people like what they experience they tell their friends and acquaintances "You got to try this game!". If they don't they still talk, and say "Hey, I tried this game and it sucked, don't buy it."

 

A game only gets one chance to launch with the features and game play that make people say "You gotta try this game!". If it's not there it's the kiss of death. Most games never recover. The MMO audience is very fickle and unforgiving.

 

SWTOR made a number of mistaken assumptions about MMO game design based on their experience as a single player game company (at which they are very good--but that's not MMO's) and the assumption that if you give people more WOW type experiences they will flock to your game like they flocked to WOW.

 

You can't treat an MMO like a single player game. There's a different dynamic. The fact that there's a very focused story for each class is good--for a single player game--and the voice over is cool and all, but MMO's thrive on community and shared experiences, not solo play. That's lacking in this game. The tools and group experiences are not there for people to bond over their adventures and form relationships. That alone is enough to kill this game in a very short time (for an MMO).

 

MMO's are the descendants of pen and paper RPG's where you get together and play with your friends and that's what makes the experience special. If people want to play a game be immersed in the story and not be bothered playing with other people they will buy a single player game. BW's seeming total lack of understanding of this with regard to the design is hurting this game. They put in guilds but no incentive to group with the exception of raiding at the endgame... so why join a guild? Four player maximum group size doesn't encourage group play or build guilds, and pets (companions) encourage solo play.

 

Since 98% of the content can be done by a two player team, all you need is one friend and you're good to go. Once you're done with the story content you and your friend can move on to the next game.

 

A good game needs socialization tools starting with variable group sizes which allow 6-8 players to get together, and content that encourages people to play together. I'm not saying that all content must be group content. Variety is better than homogenization.

 

As far as WOW type design is concerned... those of us who left WOW were bored or tired of it's game play: specifically grinding for gear and raiding in the end game. If you want that sort of play, you're playing WOW. You can't out-WOW WOW. The mechanics of this game and endgame play are too derivative. You need something different to attract people. So a lot of people came and saw these derivative mechanics. Some said thanks but no thanks, been there and done that and walked away. And those that really liked that sort of thing and Star Wars will defend it to the death even though it's driving off other players.

 

As far as endgame content tons of people hated WOW's endgame. Why would they leave if they liked it? Why would they want to do more of the same here in SWTOR if they hated what was done in WOW? You're not going to pull people away from WOW with an inferior repetitious version of their worst feature. And you're certainly not going to hold people with it.

 

Lastly this game is too static in terms of it's content. The environment never changes, the stories never change, the spawns never change. The maps are always the same. It lacks great replay value.

 

Static is the way many single player games are designed. You play the game---great it was a fun ride--- been there done that you might play it again once. It's like reading a book. Once you finish the story you're done. If you really like the story you might read it again, then put it down and move on to the next book.

 

Good MMO's build in repeatability to their design so people are not doing the exact same thing each time. While it's true that SWTOR has a individual class story lines you still are repeating 80-90% of the original content per planet. If you're going to have static global maps then you need to introduce variables elsewhere--variable spawns, variable mission maps, random spawns, random events, random contacts for missions, etc.

 

So the problem this game has is not bad word of mouth but a problem with game design philosophy.

 

Personally they didn't make the design choices that would have made this game better, but I'm having fun playing for now. Still there's certainly much that could be done, and should have been done earlier in development that could make this game more appealing to more people.

[Bluerodian]

There is a lot of truth in that statement. I am a big fan of this game and enjoy it a lot, even though I am only a casual player due to time constraints. But I cannot deny there is a lot of truth in what you said. (And it kind of seems that TES:O is going down the same well-beaten path, more's the pity.)

 

I think this is a big part of it. Logging in to TOR for the first time, the sense of Been there, done that was very high. Like so many failed attempts at the MMO throne before Bioware released "Yet Another WoW-Clone Online, with Story" in to a market that's already over-saturated with WoW-clones.

 

Yeah, I know some people are going to get their underwear in a twist and say "But WoW borrowed from EQ!" That's irrelevant. Bioware made a conscious decision to mime the style of game WoW represents by default of being the largest of them, and the collective "Meh" from the general pool of industry's players is starting to become evident. They didn't want to re-invent the wheel, and now they're going to start paying for it.

 

It kind of reminds me of Pong. The first arcade game. It was so wildly popular at its time that it was remade and cloned and copied to the point of nausea until the sheer bulk of the knock-offs drove the popularity of the original in to the dirt and they all collapsed. I think the same thing is starting to happen here, and well in time. It's time for this industry to get thrown all the way back to square one and told to develop something new.

Edited June 2, 2012 by Bluerodian