Astarica Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 Let's all take a look at Hold'em Poker. You all sit down with the same opportunity. In PvP it shouldn't matter if life (or no life) has afforded you the opportunity to grind countless hours to get better gear to better stomp a new level 50. Just like the seasoned pro at poker, if you play as much as it seems in PvP, generally you should win anyways as your skills will be better. Hmm. Anyone want to play 2 card Hold'em if I get to play with three cards against your 2 just because "I've played MOAR than you..." Skill should be skill vs skill, NOT gear vs gear... I saw an advertisement for a Texas Hold'em game where you can level up and get more hole cards. Newbies start with only 1 hole card, but veterans can get 3. I don't know if anyone bought the game, but things like that exist! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fafryd Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 As a fresh 50 with full recruit gear... Pvp is still depressing. I really enjoyed pvp while leveling... But at 50 i did not enjoy going in and not even be able to put a dint in the opposition. Being facerolle in pvp because everyone out gears you is not fun and just a turnoff. Pvp should be about skill... Having pvp gear that mitigates player dmg etc destroys that concept. As a fresh 50 im not expecting to faceroll people but a fair fight would be nice. Post again next week. Gear is easy and fast to obtain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razdek Posted May 30, 2012 Author Share Posted May 30, 2012 Post again next week. Gear is easy and fast to obtain. Yes that may be so but it still does not address the underlying issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quinlynn Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 I have to say that PVP gear is stupid. Gear should be gear and acquired by Loot or by Crafter. NOT by an NPC vendor. IMHO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Werdan Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 I recently finished a fresh level 50 myself about 2 weeks ago. This was my 4th level 50. The other 3 have Valor ranks of 55, 65, and 88. I didn't PvP until level 49 (a total of 3 games lol) and started him off with recruit gear. Was it bad? Yes but it also gave me an opportunity to learn the ins and outs of the class that you just can't get while PvEing. 2 weeks later I'm in full BM with a few WH pieces and some are even augmented (4). I'm also a pretty well known and (I hope) respected and feared player on my server. That said, recruit gear is still pretty bad. It's made even worse if you are bad at your class or PvP in general. Expertise isn't really the issue, although I do agree I'd rather have a more skill based system. Stat distribution and min/maxing is the real key in how new 50's perform (or don't perform) in WZ's. Personally, I'd like to see expertise mods for sale on the vendor and craftable so that new players have another option over non moddable recruit gear. Make it tiered so that you need to be a certain valor level to use. I'd also like to see ranked and non ranked warzone comm caps increased (to at least 10k each) and the level requirement to buy BM gear removed (as it was in beta). This alone would probably make the gear grind a lot more tolerable for fresh 50's. Finally, and I know this will never happen, but it would be nice to be able to trade commendations again (again, another beta feature removed) or even be able to have a shared comm bank between alts. Taking that to another level, worn/used items should be bound to your account and not your char. Any combination of the above would make the current system better. Again, it is very possible to compete as a fresh 50 as long as the player has the dertermination and mindset for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razdek Posted May 30, 2012 Author Share Posted May 30, 2012 Post again next week. Gear is easy and fast to obtain. Yes that may be so but it still does not address the underlying issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorgonKara Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 (edited) The devs got carried away with Expertise and pvp gear. Maxed pvp gear should give you at most a 5% PvP boost over players in similar rated PvE gear, not 20 or 25% whatever it is. That's just crazy. imho Edited May 30, 2012 by MorgonKara Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hambunctious Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 No pvp system that relies on gear stats promotes skill. In fact, the standard button smashing, and class system in wow-like mmos destroys any semblence of skill. There is NO combat skill in this game at all. Fighter sims require skill. Many FPSs require skill. Being an archer in RL takes skill. Being a precision shooter in RL takes skill. Any kind of martial combat takes skill. A million other things in this world takes actual skill to do. Don't talk to me about needing skill in this game. I just have to LOL at anyone who really believes you need skill in a game such as this. Though, it is kinda sad as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talarchy Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 (edited) Sound like the OP want's to eat the icing on the cake and leave the cake. It takes time to become good in PVP warzones, it takes time to gear yourself up... instant gratification wannabees sicken me. who cares anyway, ranked warzones are so far away it's not even worth playing anymore. Edited May 30, 2012 by Talarchy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorgonKara Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 Someone in recruit gear basically has 0 hope of defeating someone in warhero and don't even think of pvping in pve gear, in other MMOs I've played that would practically be like stripping off all your gear and pvping naked. Expertise gives a huge statistical bonus in PvP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KillaDeuce Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 1) it makes a huge difference. 2) that is the nature of pvp.. it has always been the way pvp has gone and always will go.. gear makes a differnece.. i dont know a single mmo where it doesnt when it comes to pvp. sorry to say this.. i thought for a while just like you, but those people that have better gear have it because they did alot of pvp to earn it.. and if you did pre 50 pvp you should be able to buy one or two pieces of decent gear with commendations. so really you shouldnt complain I guess we will have to see how no pvp gear difference in GW2 goes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razdek Posted May 30, 2012 Author Share Posted May 30, 2012 Sound like the OP want's to eat the icing on the cake and leave the cake. It takes time to become good in PVP warzones, it takes time to gear yourself up... instant gratification wannabees sicken me. who cares anyway, ranked warzones are so far away it's not even worth playing anymore. Actually according to posters here it takes a week to get the gear an thats all you need to be good. The current system is rubbish. I want competative pvp not gear reliant pvp. The only people who complain are those who know that they will get trashed if they lost their expertise edge. If you standardised stats across the board for pvp then it would rely on how well you know your class at max level, not how much gear you have. I dont want te icing... I want the whole cake and share it with EVERYONE with each person having a great slice. No one should have a bigger slice then anyone in competition. Its like saying all the olympians from America are allowed to use steroids while the rest of the world is not allowed to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhaker Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 As a fresh 50 with full recruit gear... Pvp is still depressing. I really enjoyed pvp while leveling... But at 50 i did not enjoy going in and not even be able to put a dint in the opposition. Being facerolle in pvp because everyone out gears you is not fun and just a turnoff. Pvp should be about skill... Having pvp gear that mitigates player dmg etc destroys that concept. As a fresh 50 im not expecting to faceroll people but a fair fight would be nice. Lesse, When I was low level and using greens in 10-49 I wasnt doing much at all. When I gotten full blues and above in 10-49 I was doing actual damage. When I got to 50 in recruit I wasnt doing much at all so I was support. When I got BM I was doing actual damage. So yea I dont see the difference, unless you want to tell me that you expect that your purples should be carrying you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jagil Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 (edited) Well once you have all the best gear, it will be fair and equal won't it. Acquiring pvp gear is just another form of powering up which is what makes MMO's successful. If an MMO was released where people started at level 50 with exactly the same gear with no progression system, it would not last very long at all. Take your licks, get your gear (1 week for BM which will see you get an equipment edge on 50% of players in pvp) then enjoy getting each new piece of WH gear as they come. This is NOT a problem, its how pvp works in all MMO's. Edited May 30, 2012 by Jagil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaj Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 I guess we will have to see how no pvp gear difference in GW2 goes. There will still be advantages to gain which will separate those who have spent the time vs someone who hasnt. If its not gear its will be something else. Abilities leveled etc. There will be something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razdek Posted May 30, 2012 Author Share Posted May 30, 2012 [\quote] So yea I dont see the difference, unless you want to tell me that you expect that your purples should be carrying you. [\quote] Thats exatly what is happening in pvp... No skill and gear carrying players. That is NOT player vs player. That is gear vs no gear. It is not a challenge, and for new people trying to get in on the action it is not fun. Why do something if you dont stand a chance to succeed. You wonder why only a select group of people pvp, and you have long queue times? Its because no one wants to play in that environment with elitests who love their gear grind and love facerolling instead of actually having a real challenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highsis Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 I agree with you to some point, but PvP gear difference is necessary to encourage players to play PvP for a long time. Gear grinding is bad when it is done to the point of stupidity like in Korean MMORPG where there does not even exist the level adjustments or max level that you have to play it for one year to be competitive in PvP, But some degree of reward or privilege is needed since this isn't single player game. If it were single player game, we would not even need to repeat all the sidequests between class quests. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bewoulff Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 As a fresh 50 with full recruit gear... Pvp is still depressing. I really enjoyed pvp while leveling... But at 50 i did not enjoy going in and not even be able to put a dint in the opposition. Being facerolle in pvp because everyone out gears you is not fun and just a turnoff. Pvp should be about skill... Having pvp gear that mitigates player dmg etc destroys that concept. As a fresh 50 im not expecting to faceroll people but a fair fight would be nice. As a player who got centurion gear before 1.2 (e,g the hard way) I can tell you it gets easier fast. If they hadn't removed the daily/weeklies that they did you'd probably have an easier time. I remember a big improvement for me was doing the dailies and weeklies once and I got enough comms to buy decent gear. Maybe I got better at the same time. It sucks to get face rolled but it will also help you be a better player when you do get the gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelbun Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 hey be happy that you can buy pvp gear now that has expertise in it.. the old way you got tromped over and over till you got enough commendations to buy some expertise..it is way easier now than it used to be I think thats his point. It shouldnt be gear dependant at all. The only way to do that is when people instance in they all be put in generic gear for their class/AC/spec. That would be fine with me but most people would /cry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelbun Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 (edited) [\quote] So yea I dont see the difference, unless you want to tell me that you expect that your purples should be carrying you. [\quote] Thats exatly what is happening in pvp... No skill and gear carrying players. That is NOT player vs player. That is gear vs no gear. It is not a challenge, and for new people trying to get in on the action it is not fun. Why do something if you dont stand a chance to succeed. You wonder why only a select group of people pvp, and you have long queue times? Its because no one wants to play in that environment with elitests who love their gear grind and love facerolling instead of actually having a real challenge. Duh! Of course its gear VS gear. This is WoW, silly. Cuz you KNOW if Luke had the Champion set, he'd still have his hand. PS: Quit your jobs, get in your mom's basement and grind gear 8+ hours a day like a normal gamer, idiot. /sarc Edited May 30, 2012 by Kelbun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowOfVey Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 Duh! Of course its gear VS gear. This is WoW, silly. Cuz you KNOW if Luke had the Champion set, he'd still have his hand. PS: Quit your jobs, get in your mom's basement and grind gear 8+ hours a day like a normal gamer, idiot. /sarc The only reason anakin lost the duel in episode 3 was because he was too cheap to augment his gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelbun Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 The only reason anakin lost the duel in episode 3 was because he was too cheap to augment his gear. Right! Spent too much time putting stuff in Padma's slot instead of his gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bewoulff Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 The only reason anakin lost the duel in episode 3 was because he was too cheap to augment his gear. Lol but I say the only reason he lost was because he was fighting the bad *** that is obi wan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxdragonragexx Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 (edited) Lol but I say the only reason he lost was because he was fighting the bad *** that is obi wan. Nah, Anakin was level 49. He was playing with the 10-49 crowd so he thought he was skilled until he faced level 50 obi wan in full war hero gear then reality sets in. He needed armor that is better than war hero like the black helmet, black chest, and black cape that he acquired in order to win. After that, he was unbeatable. Edited May 30, 2012 by xxdragonragexx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armelle Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 This type of discussion is exactly why I don't understand the appeal of PvP in MMO games. In MMO's PvP is hugely affected by gear which can override the skill levels of the players to a significant extent. For level playing field PvP so it's all down to skill, twitch reactions and ability (none of which I have) there are a huge number of combat games with multiple classes, dozens if not hundreds of maps, different objectives and cooperative play. I genuinely don't understand why the PvP players don't avoid MMO's and play these types of games instead. MMO's are all PvE with a bit of PvP bolted on, the end result being constant whinefests about PvP imbalance when the balance they all crave is so easily available in games specifically designed for PvP. The answer is simple..."hardcore" MMO PvP is for people that need persistent gear to make themselves viable. They cannot play FPS PvP without taking rockets to the face all day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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