The reason people make premades

[LiveandDieinLA]

Professional football is pretty much all about awareness and no communication because it'd be literally impossible to hear anything anyone is saying in a football stadium once the play started.

 

In fact, just given the general noise level at a professional sports stadium, communication is often impossible. You run a basketball play, but the play is never going to work exactly like how you draw it up on the board so you hope all your guys know how to get open based on their experience/talent/etc, not because the point guard is saying "SG to left center to right gogogo!"

 

In the NFL the captains have audio inside their headsets.

 

Have you ever even watched an NFL game? All of the audibles called at the line don't qualify as communication?

 

How about baseball? where an entire language of hand signals is used.

Saying there is no communication in sports is ********.

[DimeStax]

Professional football is pretty much all about awareness and no communication because it'd be literally impossible to hear anything anyone is saying in a football stadium once the play started.

 

In fact, just given the general noise level at a professional sports stadium, communication is often impossible. You run a basketball play, but the play is never going to work exactly like how you draw it up on the board so you hope all your guys know how to get open based on their experience/talent/etc, not because the point guard is saying "SG to left center to right gogogo!"

 

First of all, do you know ANYTHING about Sports?

 

In the NFL the Head Coach relays the play to the Quarterback via headset, and the Quarterback gives the play to his team in the huddle... guess what that's communication. At the line of scrimmage, the quarter back evaluates the field gives cadence calls and can audible to a different play if he see's a defense vulnerable to a certain play, he uses his cadence calls to audible... guess what that's communication. Receivers on the line of scrimmage may see a corner back ready to jump his route and can also give a hand signal back to the quaterback to let him know he's changing the route on his own... guess what that's communication. The defense goes through roughly the same communication process on the opposite side.

 

In basketball the Head Coach calls the play in the time out and a series of plays is practiced at practice. During the game, the point guard sets up at the top of the key and uses cadence calls and hand signals to run plays like pick and rolls etc... guess what that's communication. Even when a player makes a hand gesture to "throw it up" for an alley-oop, that's communication too.

 

Your anology is really bad and it proves you know nothing about team orientated games.

[Astarica]

The guys who worship communication in SWTOR and now professional sports need to see David Blaine's commercial on the NBA Playoffs. Then again maybe people really believe that Steve Nash secretly has a high frequency transmitter detailing his alley-oop passes instructions to fellow teammates because 'there really is no other possible explanation'.

 

The funny thing is if all this stuff people claim about communicating actually works, then there is nothing special about Steve Nash doing a no look pass because if there was a secret handshake or someone holding up a mirror to pull it off, then any PG can pull it off and we'd be seeing no look passes in every game, instead of being amazed by Steve Nash's court vision and mastery of where everyone is at the court at the same time.

 

Communication is easy. Awareness is not. That's why a lot of you can talk about how you're supposed to communicate in professional sports, but none of you could pull off something like a no look pass (indeed even most NBA players can't do it with any reliability which is why it's an amazing thing to pull off).

[kitsinni]

Here is the reason people don't make premades .. how do you lose in this game in a premade? I guess there is a small chance you run up against another premade but other than that what would be the point? If I wanted to just win everytime without a challenge I wouldn't bother playing anymore.

[ShadowOfVey]

Here is the reason people don't make premades .. how do you lose in this game in a premade? I guess there is a small chance you run up against another premade but other than that what would be the point? If I wanted to just win everytime without a challenge I wouldn't bother playing anymore.

 

Guess it depends what server you play on. If you play on one that has a lot of people queueing for WZs, you actually have a pretty good chance of being in your own premade and facing another premade. Just depends how much people like grouping up on your server and how many people they know.

 

Premades certainly aren't an autowin either. There's plenty of good players that run in the solo queue too. Maybe they just like solo queueing, maybe their friends aren't on etc. I run into them all the time. Sometimes the enemy team just has a combination of good players on it, they play better than you that game, and you lose. It happens. I've been in many full pug groups that beat premades, and I've been in premades that lost to a pug group. You still have to get it done in the WZ and that's on you. Even good players don't play well every game every time, especially since if you happen to have something strong going and win over and over for hours, it's easy to start phoning it in (and then lose to someone you shouldn't)

 

There's also premades that aren't set out for dominance. Sometimes it's just some friends in a casual guild that decide to queue up together. They might not be any good, they just had friends on and said "lets play some WZs". You've probably beaten many premades and not even realized they were premades.

 

Nothing about inviting people to a group before joining a warzone guarantees a win.

[DimeStax]

The guys who worship communication in SWTOR and now professional sports need to see David Blaine's commercial on the NBA Playoffs. Then again maybe people really believe that Steve Nash secretly has a high frequency transmitter detailing his alley-oop passes instructions to fellow teammates because 'there really is no other possible explanation'.

 

The funny thing is if all this stuff people claim about communicating actually works, then there is nothing special about Steve Nash doing a no look pass because if there was a secret handshake or someone holding up a mirror to pull it off, then any PG can pull it off and we'd be seeing no look passes in every game, instead of being amazed by Steve Nash's court vision and mastery of where everyone is at the court at the same time.

 

Communication is easy. Awareness is not. That's why a lot of you can talk about how you're supposed to communicate in professional sports, but none of you could pull off something like a no look pass (indeed even most NBA players can't do it with any reliability which is why it's an amazing thing to pull off).

 

While "no look passes" are exciting to watch you have to realize that they are exciting for a reason; because they are rare and not many people can do it well. For this reason you don't build a team strategy around the "no look pass", but if you did, you would use communication to relay it. If you want to compare playing SWTOR to Steve Nash's no look passes, then try winning a WZ with your eyes closed. That would be pretty amazing to watch too! Until people are doing that consistently, communication works great imo. You should try it sometime.

[MobiusZero]

If you need someone to tell you which node needs help you have very little situational awareness. A lot of the players that run in premades are pretty bad when they are on their own.

 

Premades can definitely be fun and they can make many things easier, but if you need a full group to pvp, chances are you aren't as good as you think you are.

 

Amen to that!

 

The reason most people make premades, is because they can't handle losing, and just want to roflstomp PuGs. But guess what? Losing makes you a better player.

 

I'd rather be paired with crappy players and have more of a challenge, then PuG stomp as a premade.

 

I LOVE pwning elitists. It's what I live for in MMORPGs.

[DimeStax]

Amen to that!

 

The reason most people make premades, is because they can't handle losing, and just want to roflstomp PuGs. But guess what? Losing makes you a better player.

 

I'd rather be paired with crappy players and have more of a challenge, then PuG stomp as a premade.

 

I LOVE pwning elitists. It's what I live for in MMORPGs.

We don't run premades because we can't pvp on our own, or we're not very good; we run premades because we enjoy playing with our friends, teamwork works a lot better when you can instantly verbally communicate with your team, and playing a team orientated game is much more fun when you have people who you can rely on. It has nothing to do with wanting to stomp PUGS, ego boosts, or being too bad to win any other way. It has everything to do with wanting to be part of a fun and enjoyable team orientated pvp experience. If you like playing by yourself, go for it, but don't hate premades just because you are too lazy to make or join one.

[DimeStax]

3 teams are given a warzone scenario. One team is allowed to use teamspeak or ventrilo and has all their players in the server channel; another team is not allowed to use ventrilo or teamspeak but has a chat channel where they can type out communication to their teammates; and finally the last team does not have a chat window at all and is not allowed to use teamspeak. All skill-levels and game experience/awareness the same, who has the advantage of winning?

 

Seriously if this is even a discussion you kids need to go back to high school communication or speech.

Edited May 29, 2012 by DimeStax

[Varicite]

We don't run premades because we can't pvp on our own, or we're not very good; we run premades because we enjoy playing with our friends, teamwork works a lot better when you can instantly verbally communicate with your team, and playing a team orientated game is much more fun when you have people who you can rely on. It has nothing to do with wanting to stomp PUGS, ego boosts, or being too bad to win any other way. It has everything to do with wanting to be part of a fun and enjoyable team orientated pvp experience. If you like playing by yourself, go for it, but don't hate premades just because you are too lazy to make or join one.

 

This. Heh, DimeStax and I don't often agree, but this is pretty much just common sense.

 

Why is it so hard to grasp the concept of people actually just wanting to play WITH SOMEONE ELSE at the same time in a massive-multiplayer game?

 

Why must there be all these ulterior motives and sinister connotations? So much hatred, mistrust, and flat-out misguided prejudice.

 

I never played in premades before this past weekend. Now I have. Did my personality suddenly change over the weekend into that of someone who revels in demoralizing undergeared opponents, or my decent PvP skills suddenly evaporate to the point that I now have to be "carried" by friends in order to play the same game I've been playing since December?

 

Of course not.

 

Quit being delusional.

[DimeStax]

This. Heh, DimeStax and I don't often agree, but this is pretty much just common sense.

 

Why is it so hard to grasp the concept of people actually just wanting to play WITH SOMEONE ELSE at the same time in a massive-multiplayer game?

 

Why must there be all these ulterior motives and sinister connotations? So much hatred, mistrust, and flat-out misguided prejudice.

 

I never played in premades before this past weekend. Now I have. Did my personality suddenly change over the weekend into that of someone who revels in demoralizing undergeared opponents, or my decent PvP skills suddenly evaporate to the point that I now have to be "carried" by friends in order to play the same game I've been playing since December?

 

Of course not.

 

Quit being delusional.

 

I gotta admit that when I saw you name on the "Last Post" of the forum thread I came in here expecting an argument lol.

[Zeaza]

So they don't have to spam PASS THE BALL to you, the dps merc running the ball with 6 people beating on him with tankasins jumping up and down in your cone of vision past the first flames 15m away.

 

So they don't have to find out enemy team is inc by seeing a node change possession, because you didn't bother to call inc before getting steamrolled.

 

So they don't have to ask you, the full tank spec PT in tank gear, to use guard.

 

So they don't have to tell you, the DPS PT to attack the marked healers.

 

So they don't have to lose possession of the ball in huttball after you get stunned on the flames trying to slowly walk it across without having a CC break up.

 

So they know at least a few people on their team will try to cap in novare coast mid battle, while you fruitlessly continue trying to clear the area by whittling down an enemy tank 50m from the node.

 

And most importantly: So they know there's a lesser chance of you actually being on their team.

 

right on the spot. this is exactly why.

[HurricaneXXIV]

I like to PvP with friends, it's fun. It's why I play an MMO. You might as well be an NPC I can't talk to you.

[N_inja]

OP is rude but many feel the same way. The skill disparity between players in PvP is amazing in this game.

 

Never seen so many keyboard turners ever. In Rift you'd see them sometimes, not often. It was a fun novelty to jump over them repeatedly and watch them slowly turn to face you. In TOR it has just gotten old now and is no longer fun to mess with these people.

[criminalheretic]

I don't know about that. I saw a member of a premade do that, although only once.

 

Not to make excuses for anyone, but I have actually seen Huttball incorrectly assign the "Your team". Like you are on the Frogdogs, you respawn from the Frogdog endzone. But you look up and it says you are a Rotworm.

[Isislol]

Not every premade is good, there are tons of bad players who run premades because it's usually easy win when you out gear 90% of your opponents.

Most of the "pro" premades will fail in ranked WZs when they face other coordinated teams, I see some premades failing playing good PuGs.

[Smashbrother]

People who think back pedaling is bad are teenagers with no breadth in thinking.

 

Back-pedaling is an excellent baiting scheme for ranged classes. Full out run away? Your going to make a competent melee player give up because he has better things to kill. Use the back pedal, bait away the teenage kid on the forum bashing back pedaling, and have your team mate cap the door or node.

 

There's nothing preventing people from strafing sporadically so they don't get too far away from the melee chasing them in the situation you described. You don't need backpeddle for baiting a melee away from a door or for anything.

 

Unbinding backpeddle gives you an extra super useful easily reached keybind to use on an important skill instead of wasting it on backpeddle which you should never use in pvp. Even if you did use backpeddle every once in a while, bind it to another key that isn't as good as the S.

Edited May 29, 2012 by Smashbrother

[Wesgile]

First of all, do you know ANYTHING about Sports?

 

In the NFL the Head Coach relays the play to the Quarterback via headset, and the Quarterback gives the play to his team in the huddle... guess what that's communication. At the line of scrimmage, the quarter back evaluates the field gives cadence calls and can audible to a different play if he see's a defense vulnerable to a certain play, he uses his cadence calls to audible... guess what that's communication. Receivers on the line of scrimmage may see a corner back ready to jump his route and can also give a hand signal back to the quaterback to let him know he's changing the route on his own... guess what that's communication. The defense goes through roughly the same communication process on the opposite side.

 

In basketball the Head Coach calls the play in the time out and a series of plays is practiced at practice. During the game, the point guard sets up at the top of the key and uses cadence calls and hand signals to run plays like pick and rolls etc... guess what that's communication. Even when a player makes a hand gesture to "throw it up" for an alley-oop, that's communication too.

 

Your anology is really bad and it proves you know nothing about team orientated games.

how about the actual Football where the ball is actually a ball.

on a stadium with 100k+ spectators running vuvuzelas and all the sorts, it can be hard to hear anything. also everything you shouted, your opponent gets it too. that's why good playmakers should have great awareness and vision on the field. communication can be as minimum as brief eye contacts.

[criminalheretic]

This. Heh, DimeStax and I don't often agree, but this is pretty much just common sense.

 

Why is it so hard to grasp the concept of people actually just wanting to play WITH SOMEONE ELSE at the same time in a massive-multiplayer game?

 

Why must there be all these ulterior motives and sinister connotations? So much hatred, mistrust, and flat-out misguided prejudice.

 

I never played in premades before this past weekend. Now I have. Did my personality suddenly change over the weekend into that of someone who revels in demoralizing undergeared opponents, or my decent PvP skills suddenly evaporate to the point that I now have to be "carried" by friends in order to play the same game I've been playing since December?

 

Of course not.

 

Quit being delusional.

 

I have been on both sides, spent the majority of the first 3 months pugging it, was eventually recruited by a guild, and started rolling premades with my guildies.

 

The simple truth is that while there is nothing "morally wrong" about running a premade on voice, you are nevertheless creating an environment, in a game, that is literally no fun for the people you are playing against.

 

"Well they need to L2P! It's not our fault they are baddies!" 100% true. But the fact that it is true doesn't make them hate you less... And if that is your stance, you have the right to maintain it, but don't come in the forums saying "why all the hate, I'm just having a good time with my friends?"

 

No, you are having a good time with your friends, at someone else's expense, and they WILL resent you for that.

 

So what do you do? Here's an idea, that most people won't be down for, but maybe some will...

 

Actively try to make the WZ fun, or at least tolerable, for the people you are crushing. Throw the WZ? Never. But maybe cap two turrets when youre capable of capping and holding 3. Give them a minute or two to get some defense medals, and then send some peeps over there for some 3 v 8s. The 3 people get the challenge of seeing how many they can take out before they die, and the PuGs get some medals and have something to do other than standing around complaining about how much they hate premades. Maybe even tell them that's what you are doing in gen chat. You know, be civil.

 

I was in Voidstar once, my team had 5 to their 8, AND they were much better on average than us. After going through the entire attacking round where I am pretty sure we didn't even give their doors a stern look, I saw their OPS leader telling them in gen chat not to plant any bombs. I was pissed, and I said so back to him. Then he responded with "since you guys are so shorthanded, we are gonna leave the winner up to chance", and then we spent the entire second round just having 1v1 fights. Not only was it actually kind of fun, but it struck me as the classiest behavior I have ever seen in a WZ.

 

Or you can dominate them, put 1 person at each turret and the other 5 camping their spawn, laugh to yourselves, talk smack in gen chat, emoting taunts. You have that right.

[criminalheretic]

how about the actual Football where the ball is actually a ball.

on a stadium with 100k+ spectators running vuvuzelas and all the sorts, it can be hard to hear anything. also everything you shouted, your opponent gets it too. that's why good playmakers should have great awareness and vision on the field. communication can be as minimum as brief eye contacts.

 

Or how about in real WAR, which is what these WARzones are meant to simulate, where someone would definitely be on a comm saying a base was being attacked. Saying people shouldn't be allowed to communicate effectively is an argument that is never gonna win.

[Varicite]

I have been on both sides, spent the majority of the first 3 months pugging it, was eventually recruited by a guild, and started rolling premades with my guildies.

 

The simple truth is that while there is nothing "morally wrong" about running a premade on voice, you are nevertheless creating an environment, in a game, that is literally no fun for the people you are playing against.

 

"Well they need to L2P! It's not our fault they are baddies!" 100% true. But the fact that it is true doesn't make them hate you less... And if that is your stance, you have the right to maintain it, but don't come in the forums saying "why all the hate, I'm just having a good time with my friends?"

 

No, you are having a good time with your friends, at someone else's expense, and they WILL resent you for that.

 

So what do you do? Here's an idea, that most people won't be down for, but maybe some will...

 

Actively try to make the WZ fun, or at least tolerable, for the people you are crushing. Throw the WZ? Never. But maybe cap two turrets when youre capable of capping and holding 3. Give them a minute or two to get some defense medals, and then send some peeps over there for some 3 v 8s. The 3 people get the challenge of seeing how many they can take out before they die, and the PuGs get some medals and have something to do other than standing around complaining about how much they hate premades. Maybe even tell them that's what you are doing in gen chat. You know, be civil.

 

I was in Voidstar once, my team had 5 to their 8, AND they were much better on average than us. After going through the entire attacking round where I am pretty sure we didn't even give their doors a stern look, I saw their OPS leader telling them in gen chat not to plant any bombs. I was pissed, and I said so back to him. Then he responded with "since you guys are so shorthanded, we are gonna leave the winner up to chance", and then we spent the entire second round just having 1v1 fights. Not only was it actually kind of fun, but it struck me as the classiest behavior I have ever seen in a WZ.

 

Or you can dominate them, put 1 person at each turret and the other 5 camping their spawn, laugh to yourselves, talk smack in gen chat, emoting taunts. You have that right.

 

First things first, I'm not sure where you are getting the "L2P" comments, unless you're just saying that in general. I am really very picky about when and to whom I say anything of that nature, and it's usually never as blunt or rude as that. Well, sometimes it's as rude, depending on the person. : )

 

But I suppose you're right that it isn't fun for everyone fighting a premade. I personally enjoy fighting hard matches against premades, so long as I have a handful of decent pugs on my team. I thrive on competition, so that's just the kind of thing that I enjoy.

 

Likewise, I readily accept that most people are not as patient as I am, or get discouraged more easily. But I also pug. We all take our lumps.

 

And that's where I don't really feel like it's that much of a problem, I guess. I don't know anyone who ONLY runs in premades, but I guess on servers like the Fatman where you have more people, you can actually field 4-8 people to run w/ at all times.

[Astarica]

Or how about in real WAR, which is what these WARzones are meant to simulate, where someone would definitely be on a comm saying a base was being attacked. Saying people shouldn't be allowed to communicate effectively is an argument that is never gonna win.

 

Because in real world a guy just shouts in your comm 'everyone shoot at this guy at the same time!'

 

I know people think war is like Starcraft 2 where everyone just consults their mini map and instantly knows where every friendly ally is, but in reality you usually only know maybe the guys in your squad and you have no idea what's out there. That's why there's stuff like friendly fire because you can't be sure if that tank ahead is your tank or their tank, and you don't get to just ask someone 'is that our tank?' and you got to make a decision fast because if the tank isn't yours it sure is going to be shooting back at you.

 

Historically you'll find many great battles that involve some guy making a decision based on virtually no information because he doesn't have a minimap to check where everyone is, and he can't go to his Ops channel to see who or what is under attack. They basically have to operate from the same principles discussed in some of the post, i.e. "I know they got about this many guys and if a lot of them are going one way, maybe I can hit the other side which is vulnerable".

 

Actually this worshipping of communication is like the failed Future Combat System project that the US was working on. The idea is to make a bunch of really fast, lightweight vehicles that have crazy communication ability so you can run circles around the enemy and apply what you learned in a MMORPG to real life. However that never got past the design stage because they realized stuff like a land mine can blow up your crazy movement vehicle since it's lightly armored but if you put more armor on it then the vehicle is no longer crazy fast, and without crazy speed there's not much point for super communication anyway. Everyone knows when a tank is coming your way.

[criminalheretic]

First things first, I'm not sure where you are getting the "L2P" comments, unless you're just saying that in general. I am really very picky about when and to whom I say anything of that nature, and it's usually never as blunt or rude as that. Well, sometimes it's as rude, depending on the person. : )

 

But I suppose you're right that it isn't fun for everyone fighting a premade. I personally enjoy fighting hard matches against premades, so long as I have a handful of decent pugs on my team. I thrive on competition, so that's just the kind of thing that I enjoy.

 

Likewise, I readily accept that most people are not as patient as I am, or get discouraged more easily. But I also pug. We all take our lumps.

 

And that's where I don't really feel like it's that much of a problem, I guess. I don't know anyone who ONLY runs in premades, but I guess on servers like the Fatman where you have more people, you can actually field 4-8 people to run w/ at all times.

 

Well that's the distinction people running premades need to make... I'm not completely "casual" myself. I am not the best PVPer on my server, or even the 27th best. But I'm in the top 25%. My point being, I get that losing helps you learn, but that depends on HOW BAD you are losing. You don't learn anything from a 3 second death.

 

So as a premade, you have to ask... Are you winning a challenging match? Or are you 7 minutes in, without having even popped a medpac? If it's the former, the opposing team is probably (or should be) thinking, "wow this is a good match", if it's the latter they are probably thinking "well I guess I am done with PVP for the night, or the week, or until rated wzs finally come out, or forever."

 

The question is which kind of team do you wanna be? The team that makes things for for the most amount of people, while still winning. Or the team people HATE playing against. I'm not suggesting people shouldn't be allowed to roll premades on voice. I'm just suggesting they play to their competition. You know, sportsmanship.

Edited May 30, 2012 by criminalheretic

[criminalheretic]

Because in real world a guy just shouts in your comm 'everyone shoot at this guy at the same time!'

 

I know people think war is like Starcraft 2 where everyone just consults their mini map and instantly knows where every friendly ally is, but in reality you usually only know maybe the guys in your squad and you have no idea what's out there. That's why there's stuff like friendly fire because you can't be sure if that tank ahead is your tank or their tank, and you don't get to just ask someone 'is that our tank?' and you got to make a decision fast because if the tank isn't yours it sure is going to be shooting back at you.

 

Historically you'll find many great battles that involve some guy making a decision based on virtually no information because he doesn't have a minimap to check where everyone is, and he can't go to his Ops channel to see who or what is under attack. They basically have to operate from the same principles discussed in some of the post, i.e. "I know they got about this many guys and if a lot of them are going one way, maybe I can hit the other side which is vulnerable".

 

Actually this worshipping of communication is like the failed Future Combat System project that the US was working on. The idea is to make a bunch of really fast, lightweight vehicles that have crazy communication ability so you can run circles around the enemy and apply what you learned in a MMORPG to real life. However that never got past the design stage because they realized stuff like a land mine can blow up your crazy movement vehicle since it's lightly armored but if you put more armor on it then the vehicle is no longer crazy fast, and without crazy speed there's not much point for super communication anyway. Everyone knows when a tank is coming your way.

 

Sorry but I am not really interested in debating how "realistic" my video game is.

 

I hate getting stomped by premades while I'm pugging, but I am not so righteous as to suggest they don't have the "right" to use something that is available to everybody. As my previous post states, I would just hope they do so with discretion and a mind for what is good for the game as a whole.

[Astarica]

Sorry but I am not really interested in debating how "realistic" my video game is.

 

I hate getting stomped by premades while I'm pugging, but I am not so righteous as to suggest they don't have the "right" to use something that is available to everybody. As my previous post states, I would just hope they do so with discretion and a mind for what is good for the game as a whole.

 

Assuming there is no gear/skill/class advantage (those aren't intrinsic property of a premade), if you have exactly equal players on both side but one is on Vent and the other is not, the only advantage the premade would have is trying to get the first knockout goal in Huttball because a lot of players give up if the enemy score first. This is the only significant edge the premade will have in all WZs.

 

In Alderran there's only two opening strat: side/side and side/middle, and if you open with a safe side/middle you can always see a side/side coming and have people veer off from the middle to stop it. At that point the game turns into a straight up brawl with the side better at killing the other side wins. Reaslitcally turrets do not change hand once they're capped between equally capable teams in Alderaan, so communication has almost no value when turrets never change hands.

 

In Novare Coast there isn't even any reasonable opening strat outside of the standard 6 south 2 natural. Any attempt to do anything fancy will just get intercepted by the guys in the middle. The best strat tends to involve stealth attackers attacking a node defended by one guy, but in that case communication would not help the defender (the attacker is trying to kill him and cap before any reinforcement can arrive). Without stealth, any attempt to attack east/west turret can be observed from south and countered appropriately.

 

On Voidstar you literally just have to head to the door with less friendly dots on defense at all times. On offense it's mostly a mindless zerg rush except for an occasionally stealth attack and again communication don't help much on stealth attack because it's a pretty bad stealth attack if you give the enemy enough time for any reinforcement to arrive before you killed the target.

 

Now it's true a premade usually have some kind of gear/skill/class advantage because premade at least fairly aggressively selects against weak skill/gear characters, but any collection of individual with one of those 3 advantages has a significant edge over those who do not and that's just a matter of life.