Marauder threads

[ehtom]

I really don't understand why there is one of these threads every 5 mins. Marauder damage is comparable with other classes in pve (this has been proven from combat logs). Why do people have this flawed impression that in pvp they all of a sudden have double damage or something?

 

Anni Marauder damage is:-

 

1. Sustained, not bursty.

2. Countered by dispels.

3. Requires you to stay on target and keep attacking it.

4. VERY easy to disrupt with KB/roots/slows.

 

All these things should make mara damage worse in pvp than it is in pve (comparatively). Indeed it is usually another class that ends up having highest damage done in warzones. Operatives/Shadows are still better than mara's 1v1, which is another thing often complained about.

 

If they had no defensive cooldowns at all (which is what people seem to want) they would be utterly useless. If they had reduced damage there would always be a better alternative - they would be a walking predation and nothing more.

 

What is more surprising is that people do not complain about:-

 

1. PT's - Highest burst in the game by a large margin, several 30m ranged attacks.

2. Shadows - Good spike damage, lots of control, ridiculous defence and anti-cc abilities.

3. Operative Healer - Just quite a bit better than the other two heal options, frankly.

 

Also, let's consider the classes that I haven't mentioned yet:-

 

1. Sorc - Madness sorc is still very good especially against maras.

2. Sniper - Owns mara's.

3. Commando DPS - Bio have CONFIRMED buffs to this class, so they will be better next patch.

4. Guardian/Jugg - Have a better version of the mara's smash spec which people whine about alot too. Also probably the best pvp tank.

 

So, unless I am REALLY missing something, I would like to know which AC these nerf-callers play and why they wont just respec (or wait for 1.3 in the case of commandos) instead of continually posting threads essentially asking bio to gut the mara class. To me it just feels like someone decided around 1.2 to say "MARAUDER OP NOW OMG!!!" and so every time someone dies to a mara they experience confirmation bias and decide that they are OP now too.

[laiboch]

The problem with your entire post is that it makes sense and doesn't contain any QQ.

 

Here is the reality of this game like many other MMO's: People that suck will always QQ about any class that beats them till they get a nerf. Then they QQ because some other class beat them.. This goes on and on till their class is on the chopping block and they come out saying their class isn't OP and that everyone else needs to L2P.

 

The reality is Marauder/Sent needed a boost. IMO the middle tree (Cargange) needs to be worked with a bit still because it has no flow and still kind of sucks.

 

They also nerfed several classes that didn't really need an over all nerf. Sorc's hybrid lightning/madness didn't need touched. Force bending needed to be fixed.

Merc/trooper Tracer/grav round needed adjusted, but they hit it to hard. A reduction in damage, Cast time or cost was needed, but not all 3.

 

For a game who's Dev's claim to have tons and tons of logs they really don't seem to have any clue how to really balance things...

[Twor]

I really don't understand the threads of marauders who think they are fine. Every five minutes there is one.

 

Also noone is complaining about their damage but about their defensive CDs. If you say without them you would die guess what. No other melee class has an comparable amount and they manage.

[Underpowered]

As a DPS Sage, I used to think Sents/Maruaders needed massive nerfs (I wish they did). But in hard reality...they don't.

 

Sentinels/Marauders hit hard and should stay that way. They probably need all of their cooldowns too in order to not be too squishy. That being said, they do need a nerf to their defensive CDs, and in my opinion, they only need one:

 

Guarded By The Force/Undying Rage now provides 99% damage AND healing reduction for 5 seconds.

 

Sentinels/Marauders already have one "Get out of jail free" card - Force Camo. Giving yourself 99% immunity near death and then getting healed back to full is simply far too effectual.

Edited May 28, 2012 by Underpowered

[Percee]

It's called fotm, ive been around since the beta and such things happen on a monthly basis. I remember that people were considering maras garbage before the 1.2 and that they needed some QOL buffs in order to atleast compete with other classes and that they had the same spells as of now, meaning by this that they had those now called op defensive cds( short minded much?) and force camo was much much better it had a 100% dmg mitigation and still maras were considered ****. Now let met tell you this, whenever a class gets a buff and others get nerfed ( like in mandos and sorcs case) people immediately start to play the buffed class. Which led to a huge amount of maras runing around in wzs, they werent really good. In fact most of the maras i encounter are bad and i enjoy stomping on them. But people grew tired of seeing maras in every wz and one day one dude that was frustrated by losing whichever he was in, decided to look into the scoreboard and found out that that mara in his wz was first in the list and decided to post a QQ thread about it. Thus he ignited all the other people who were sick of seeing maras every game and used that pretext to call for nerfs for a class that im sure most of them considered **** before.

 

 

And please dont come to me with the ttk changes or melee buffs. They needed that.

 

The end

[ehtom]

I really don't understand the threads of marauders who think they are fine. Every five minutes there is one.

 

Also noone is complaining about their damage but about their defensive CDs. If you say without them you would die guess what. No other melee class has an comparable amount and they manage.

 

Guard/Jugg is the only melee you can sensibly compare to a mara and they have better defence.

 

Shadow/Sin also have higher defence, not to mention stealth. Operative DPS is not a frontline fighter in the same way a mara has to be.

 

What melee class are you refering to that doesnt have a "comparable amount" of defence yet is still useful, exactly?

[Digtahk]

I would be interested to see the data which backs up the OPs statement that their PVE damage is roughly the same as all other ACs. All early testing showed them to have the highest along with Arsenal merc which is not a viable pvp spec.

[Twor]

Guard/Jugg is the only melee you can sensibly compare to a mara and they have better defence.

 

Shadow/Sin also have higher defence, not to mention stealth. Operative DPS is not a frontline fighter in the same way a mara has to be.

 

What melee class are you refering to that doesnt have a "comparable amount" of defence yet is still useful, exactly?

 

What better defense are you seeing? For guardians all that comes to mind is heavy armor and a few % of talents. Missing several avtive CDs therefor.

Shadows have less defensive CDs. If operative is not a frontline aka. melee than what exactly is he? Once he pops out of stealth and his "vanish" is on CD?

The OP mentioned PTs, they need to be in melee -10m to perform. One defensive CD, which is fine as they are bursty.

Sorry but you are very unrealistic on not being the kings of defensive CDs.

Edited May 28, 2012 by Twor

[ehtom]

I would be interested to see the data which backs up the OPs statement that their PVE damage is roughly the same as all other ACs. All early testing showed them to have the highest along with Arsenal merc which is not a viable pvp spec.

 

http://www.dpsmeter.com/rankings.php#dps-tab. Various classes are all in the top scores. Mara's are not the highest for every fight in EC at all.

 

Merc/Sorc/Sent/Sniper/Shadow are all in the top 10. Only operative/guardian DPS is missing.

 

Edit: Sorry guardian DPS is on there, only Operative DPS is missing.

Edited May 28, 2012 by ehtom

[Blloodbane]

The problem is people get spanked by a Mara/Sent and they think ohhhh must be OP...

 

Yet, BW stated a long time ago their metrics was fine, All the QQ threads since then have been ignored about them since. Next, if the class was SO OP as people love to exagerate their abiltiies, their stats in the WZ matches are comparable to the rest of the team as in Dam, Kills and number of deaths... Its not like they are getting 70 kills and 1 death or less.... Dont give me the arguement whole teams of them are ruining pvp either, because the ones that say this are all taking about the sub-50 game and in addition, as far as I can tell you get 4 of any one class working together as team they own. Everytime I see a republic team on my server, its always 3 to 4 sages with 3 commandoes and 1 to 2 of something else and they do really good.

 

Even in the latest Q and A and 1.3 video, nothing is mentioned about about PVP damage, other than Mercs and the increase of "USABILITY", see any nerf comments? Nope sure didnt...

 

I wonder if the QQ'ers will ever get it and stop BMC and L2P.

[TriviumIsGOAT]

Marauders should do damage, thats the point of the class but they also have better survivablity than a dps juggernaut, who actually do less damage... If anything give juggernaut the defensive cool downs the marauders get, and marauders should absolutely not have a stealth talent. Edited May 28, 2012 by TriviumIsGOAT

[ehtom]

What better defense are you seeing? For guardians all that comes to mind is heavy armor and a few % of talents. Missing several avtive CDs therefor.

Shadows have less defensive CDs. If operative is not a frontline aka. melee than what exactly is he? Once he pops out of stealth and his "vanish" is on CD?

The OP mentioned PTs, they need to be in melee -10m to perform. One defensive CD, which is fine as they are bursty.

Sorry but you are very unrealistic on not being the kings of defensive CDs.

 

Powertech's 2 main attacks and one of their dots is 30m. 10m is not melee. 4m is melee. If you want to change all mara attacks to hit from 10m then you can claim that PT's are melee as well. (only stockstrike is melee range for PT).

 

The number of defensive CD's is not what defines defence - Shadows can make themselves immune to CC and force/tech damage for quite a while - that is nothing short of insane just on its own. They can also mitigate a hell of a lot of white damage. Guardians have heavy armour, soresu form, several passive mitigation talents and force push.

[ZDProletariat]

Where was it "proven" that marauders do equal DPS in raids? They do 1700+ easily, while other classes are sitting at 1200-1500.

[ehtom]

Where was it "proven" that marauders do equal DPS in raids? They do 1700+ easily, while other classes are sitting at 1200-1500.

 

You are wrong: http://www.dpsmeter.com/rankings.php#dps-tab.

[ZDProletariat]

You are wrong: http://www.dpsmeter.com/rankings.php#dps-tab.

 

Yeah congratulations posting the very link I checked out earlier before posting my comment.

How about you use your brain for a second, and click on the links of the various classes to see how LONG the fights were for each.

I (as a sniper) can also reach 1700 if the fight lasts two seconds, or it consists of mostly AOE. Why you are comparing AOE to single target is beyond me, and why you are comparing very short fights where the raid wipes early (that give burst classes an incredible advantage if comparing raw DPS) is also beyond me. If look at the warlord kephess ranking for HM You will actually see my gunslinger in the top 10. WOW how amazing right!? No, we wiped very early that run and it only counted the initial burst (plus we had the pilgrim buff). There are countless things that taint the DPS in that ranking that are still counted, I am shocked you would try to use it as evidence for anything. Even an undergrad taking statistics 101 would be shocked.

Why don't you look at the real fights that consist of each class beating on a target for a long time. Like Karagga or bonethrasher or jarg or crusher.

 

Or how about this. Look at every single fight ranking on that site, and count how many sentinels or marauders are in the top 10 compared to ALL other classes. See what percent of the top are sentinels and marauders. I bet you will be disappointed so I doubt you would do it. I'll do it for you. It's 56%. Comparing one class to ALL other classes, they take up 56% of the top 10 spots. The bosses they don't seem to do well are easily explained away by the boss mechanics like Gharj and Kephess.

 

Don't try to use that site as evidence of sentinels DPS being equal. It's laughable since they allow short logs, logs with pilgrim buff, they allow all aoe damage factored against single DPS. It's obviously invalid as a comparison tool. And even if we do attempt to use it, you still come up embarrassed since the majority of top 10s are indeed the sentinels pitted against every other class.

 

Q.E.D.

[Twor]

Powertech's 2 main attacks and one of their dots is 30m. 10m is not melee. 4m is melee. If you want to change all mara attacks to hit from 10m then you can claim that PT's are melee as well. (only stockstrike is melee range for PT).

 

The number of defensive CD's is not what defines defence - Shadows can make themselves immune to CC and force/tech damage for quite a while - that is nothing short of insane just on its own. They can also mitigate a hell of a lot of white damage. Guardians have heavy armour, soresu form, several passive mitigation talents and force push.

 

PTs interrupt is melee. Stockstrike, which has the highest chance to refresh their main hitter is melee.

And yes white damage migration is awesome...

And yes the number of active defense CDs is what defines defense in this case. As they are the oh s*it buttons which no class has in a comparable amount with such low CDs as marauders.

 

You see why there are always threads against marauders? It is just too much fun to see the lack of arguments you bring to the table.

 

Yes if we don't count defensive CDs, marauders have low defense. If we don't count offensive CDs noone is really bursty. And guess what, making themselves immune is a defensive CD for shadows. That doesn't count according to your argumentation.

Ah, marauder players are so much fun

[Crawelc]

Stop LOOKING AT ME!

[Cempa]

Issue is its the only DPS class that after you CC them 3 times they pop defensive CD's and need half your ops on them.

 

The resources required to deal with them are too high in terms of time and players.

 

The defensive CD's are too 'bursty.'

[LiveandDieinLA]

Issue is its the only DPS class that after you CC them 3 times they pop defensive CD's and need half your ops on them.

 

The resources required to deal with them are too high in terms of time and players.

 

The defensive CD's are too 'bursty.'

 

the solution is to not cc them before they pop their cds.

[ehtom]

Yeah congratulations posting the very link I checked out earlier before posting my comment.

How about you use your brain for a second, and click on the links of the various classes to see how LONG the fights were for each.

I (as a sniper) can also reach 1700 if the fight lasts two seconds, or it consists of mostly AOE. Why you are comparing AOE to single target is beyond me, and why you are comparing very short fights where the raid wipes early (that give burst classes an incredible advantage if comparing raw DPS) is also beyond me. If look at the warlord kephess ranking for HM You will actually see my gunslinger in the top 10. WOW how amazing right!? No, we wiped very early that run and it only counted the initial burst (plus we had the pilgrim buff). There are countless things that taint the DPS in that ranking that are still counted, I am shocked you would try to use it as evidence for anything. Even an undergrad taking statistics 101 would be shocked.

Why don't you look at the real fights that consist of each class beating on a target for a long time. Like Karagga or bonethrasher or jarg or crusher.

 

Or how about this. Look at every single fight ranking on that site, and count how many sentinels or marauders are in the top 10 compared to ALL other classes. See what percent of the top are sentinels and marauders. I bet you will be disappointed so I doubt you would do it. I'll do it for you. It's 56%. Comparing one class to ALL other classes, they take up 56% of the top 10 spots. The bosses they don't seem to do well are easily explained away by the boss mechanics like Gharj and Kephess.

 

Don't try to use that site as evidence of sentinels DPS being equal. It's laughable since they allow short logs, logs with pilgrim buff, they allow all aoe damage factored against single DPS. It's obviously invalid as a comparison tool. And even if we do attempt to use it, you still come up embarrassed since the majority of top 10s are indeed the sentinels pitted against every other class.

 

Q.E.D.

 

So, rather than taking the rankings as a whole, you ignore the bits you dont like and take the bits you do? That is not a very good way to construct an argument. What you are basically saying is "I want to ignore any fight which doesnt help prove my point".

[HurricaneXXIV]

PvE raid information really means little to PvP. A melee class in PvP should be hitting the target far less than they would be beating on a stationary boss.

 

Range > Any cool down, so I'm not sure why I keep seeing ranged people ask for more defensive cool downs or cool downs on par with a melee class.

[ehtom]

PvE raid information really means little to PvP. A melee class in PvP should be hitting the target far less than they would be beating on a stationary boss.

 

Range > Any cool down, so I'm not sure why I keep seeing ranged people ask for more defensive cool downs or cool downs on par with a melee class.

 

Yeah I agree completely with you which is what I stated in my OP (though not explicitly).

[fungihoujo]

I really don't understand why there is one of these threads every 5 mins. Marauder damage is comparable with other classes in pve (this has been proven from combat logs). Why do people have this flawed impression that in pvp they all of a sudden have double damage or something?

 

Anni Marauder damage is:-

 

1. Sustained, not bursty.

2. Countered by dispels.

3. Requires you to stay on target and keep attacking it.

4. VERY easy to disrupt with KB/roots/slows.

 

All these things should make mara damage worse in pvp than it is in pve (comparatively). Indeed it is usually another class that ends up having highest damage done in warzones. Operatives/Shadows are still better than mara's 1v1, which is another thing often complained about.

 

If they had no defensive cooldowns at all (which is what people seem to want) they would be utterly useless. If they had reduced damage there would always be a better alternative - they would be a walking predation and nothing more.

 

What is more surprising is that people do not complain about:-

 

1. PT's - Highest burst in the game by a large margin, several 30m ranged attacks.

2. Shadows - Good spike damage, lots of control, ridiculous defence and anti-cc abilities.

3. Operative Healer - Just quite a bit better than the other two heal options, frankly.

 

Also, let's consider the classes that I haven't mentioned yet:-

 

1. Sorc - Madness sorc is still very good especially against maras.

2. Sniper - Owns mara's.

3. Commando DPS - Bio have CONFIRMED buffs to this class, so they will be better next patch.

4. Guardian/Jugg - Have a better version of the mara's smash spec which people whine about alot too. Also probably the best pvp tank.

 

So, unless I am REALLY missing something, I would like to know which AC these nerf-callers play and why they wont just respec (or wait for 1.3 in the case of commandos) instead of continually posting threads essentially asking bio to gut the mara class. To me it just feels like someone decided around 1.2 to say "MARAUDER OP NOW OMG!!!" and so every time someone dies to a mara they experience confirmation bias and decide that they are OP now too.

 

Your argument is that their dps is fine in pve, so it must be fine in pvp? Yeah, that's going to be a hard one to top.

 

In pve- I can stand around dealing damage, just standing still. Also, as a healer- I have no trauma debuff nerfing 30% of my healing (20% after expertise- but 50% after a mara's trauma debuff). Also, generally nothing is targetting/damaging a healer, and nobody is interrupting/stunning me in pve.

 

In pvp- it's quite clear to beat or even survive a mara you need to move a great deal and CC- but, mara have a large amount of CC, interrupts and speed boosts. On top of that, their instant snare is better and they can do full damage while moving- whereas most classes have their damage or healing cut drastically while moving- sorc healing is all but entirely gutted when they have to run and are being interrupted/CCed- DI their main heal has a 2.5 second cast time- that's a lot of time wherein a mara can interrupt/stun if they're on them- leap if they're not, or even use predation, force camo, etc... to get to them.

 

Multiple abilities that help a mara close a gap and keep it closed versus far less (and if you list out the abilities, you see how many more a mara has- even for a madness sorc, that sorc can do 14-16 seconds of roots per minute, while a carnage mara can do 36-39 seconds of roots per minute- yet the madness sorc is supposedly the best CC class? Madness sorc has an instant single target mez- all mara have an instant aoe mez.)

 

They have that- while also having higher damage while moving- considerably higher while moving at that.

 

Damage charts at the end mean nothing- a marauder will do less damage because their target dies and isn't able to get off many heals, a sorc will do more damage because outhealing a sorc is incredibly easy even with the nerfs to healing- so while a mara might kill a healing sorc after doing 25k damage- a madness sorc might take 60k to kill that same person. Madness sorc did more damage, but any logical person would realize that dealing damage means little compared to killing someone. Also, mara do far less aoe- so a sorc can pad numbers by spamming aoe that in the end has little effect- but does a decent amount of DPS (dps that is easily outhealed by any aoe healing).

 

As for why people don't complain about op healers and PT pyros (though they do, just not as much). An op healer has good ability to keep himself alive and keep healing while moving- but, cannot outheal bursting all that well, so it has a clear flaw- and a rather big one in the context of pvp (not to mention healing in general is simply at a far poorer state than dps in general so anyone who can't kill a healer with such a small TTK on any of the decent dps classes is never going to be taken seriously).

 

PT pyros do have very high burst, as do snipers (though not while moving as much)- both are indeed much higher than a marauder. I know, shocker- someone who thinks mara need a nerf saying two other ACs have higher burst. PT pyros have some range and a good slow- but their CC is still quite poor compared to marauders- even then, that would be fine to have weaker CC/gap closers/speed since they have a range advantage.

 

But, mara also have overwhelming defensive CD superiority and a combat stealth- PT pyros are glass canons, their defensive CDs are between poor and mediocre, and they're easy to kill- you only have to kill a pyro once, and while they're beating on you you can beat on them. That's why they aren't complained on much.

 

As for shadows- they're likely next, at the moment they're like marauder junior- just not quite as powerful. If mara get a substantial nerf without shadows being touched, expect them to be looked at next.

 

When you have the best operation wide temp buffs, speed buffs, one of the best snares, the best roots, the best defensive CDs and lots of them, the best damage while moving and second best burst while moving (after PT pyro), what is likely the best in combat stealth as dots don't counter it, and the best ability to lock down kiters and healers- of course you're going to get people wanting your nerf, no class should be top in almost every area that matters in pvp.

[-Eternal-]

The difference is that mauraders can do as much or more damage than any other class BUT stay alive 5 times longer which puts them in God-Mode. There are tons of threads about marauders because it is a blatant OP problem that BW refuses to fix. Edited May 28, 2012 by -Eternal-

[fungihoujo]

So, rather than taking the rankings as a whole, you ignore the bits you dont like and take the bits you do? That is not a very good way to construct an argument. What you are basically saying is "I want to ignore any fight which doesnt help prove my point".

 

Coming from someone trying to use fights that lasted a few seconds where only some initial burst was counted on the other hand is A-OK, amirite?