In your opinion, what is REAL PVP?

[mikedee]

I kill you.

You die.

PvP 101

[AKfourtyseven]

"Real" PvP = Street Fighter.

"Real" PvP = Battlefield.

 

This notion of PvP being all about skill and nothing else is simply a fallacy when you transfer it into an MMO setting, since a RPG by its very nature is about stats.

Gear and statistical advantages will always play some part. For me thats not a problem, since the "P" in PvP stands for player and the player has an input into those variables, as long as the system is designed with some form of balance.

 

Edit: All that said, for me pre-Publish 9 SWG and to an extent pre-CU SWG had some "real" PvP. The only issue with post publish 9 was they introduced an incentive for exploiting in PvP by the way of the Jedi ranking and forced an Alpha class into normal PvP, which was stupid.

Edited May 24, 2012 by AKfourtyseven

[Orangerascal]

PVP = Player vs Player

 

Other pvp games involve:

Poker, Chess, Basketball, Starcraft, Football, Tennis, Wrestling, Hockey, Battlefield 3, Pokemon CCG

 

and much much more.

 

People that tell you real pvp is hardcore death penalties with full loot are the same people that store their best loot in chests and/or zerg you with 3 times your number as to not have a smidgen of a chance to get killed and lose said loot. Or they run away, then claim to be 'hardcore'. It's really quite ironic most of the time.

Edited May 24, 2012 by Orangerascal

[dirtyboxer]

Consequencial pvp. Like EVE, if you lose youve lost something that sets yiu back. It could be gear, creds, or whatever you have in inventory at the time.

[MaxLiao]

Sure, the dictionary or technical definition of PvP is anything that's one or more players versus one or more other players; however, when most people talk of 'real PvP' - and I do it to - they mean what's fun and/or meaningful PvP to you. It is subjective, as people want different things out of their PvP gaming experience.

 

For me, duels and arenas/scenarios/warzones are not 'real PvP.' I find no enjoyment in them and only partake because I have to. Real PvP to me is open world, team-oriented, and based on tangible conquest. I don't care to loot the corpse of another player, but I would like to capture his city/planet and prevent his side from performing some action.

 

This could mean:

~ Blocking him for crafting materials - no purple sabers for you.

~ Blocking him from certain Operations and/or Flashpoints.

~ Or 100 other issues and items to which the team can be barred until they win back the mine, city, planet, etc.

 

It has to be something that they want to re-conquer else there's no point. A 5% XP bump is silly. It needs to be something that they feel when they have it and miss when they lose it. My team gains strength when it grows and looses strength when it shrinks.

 

I believe in the 4X gaming model for conquest, and that model should be in MMOs - at a bare minimum on PvP servers. If the Empire conquers Tatooine they get all the Jawa goodies and sand in their butt cracks. If the Republic own Hoth we get starship components and frostbite.

 

Meaningful conquest and defeat - a REASON to PvP other than to simply make the opponent's pixels disappear.

 

Also, an odd number of teams is a must. Three teams (ala DAOC) or even five teams (uhhh, BattleTech?). If one team starts to get out of hand, two, three, four other teams can slap them in the ding-ding. It allows for more community politics ... sandbox ... community ... good.

[warriorcat]

This could mean:

~ Blocking him for crafting materials - no purple sabers for you.

~ Blocking him from certain Operations and/or Flashpoints.

~ Or 100 other issues and items to which the team can be barred until they win back the mine, city, planet, etc.

 

It has to be something that they want to re-conquer else there's no point. A 5% XP bump is silly. It needs to be something that they feel when they have it and miss when they lose it. My team gains strength when it grows and looses strength when it shrinks.

 

I believe in the 4X gaming model for conquest, and that model should be in MMOs - at a bare minimum on PvP servers. If the Empire conquers Tatooine they get all the Jawa goodies and sand in their butt cracks. If the Republic own Hoth we get starship components and frostbite.

 

Meaningful conquest and defeat - a REASON to PvP other than to simply make the opponent's pixels disappear.

 

Also, an odd number of teams is a must. Three teams (ala DAOC) or even five teams (uhhh, BattleTech?). If one team starts to get out of hand, two, three, four other teams can slap them in the ding-ding. It allows for more community politics ... sandbox ... community ... good.

 

i like what you said here and totaly agree, their needs to be something to fight for!!!!

[Khoraji]

Any time your fighting another player it is PvP.

 

But when I say or think of "real" pvp. I think of ranked warzones/battlegrounds/arenas.

 

Think of it as a sport. Exhibition matches(unranked warzones), elementary school recess (open world), and practice (duels) are "real" too.

[UGLYMRJ]

I think the PvP in this game is well done... however I would like to see Warhammer style open world PvP implemented.

[Arkerus]

This is "real" PvP but it is subject to an infinite number of variables that can effect balance. Balance is in constant flux and its a fact that some classes and specs are better than others, at any given time.

 

The only PvP that doesn't fall under this are games, like FPS, when everyone is the same class with the same weapons.

 

You could do that here as well but no one wants to play a game with one class.

[DuriZap]

From what I've learned on MMO forums, whatever the majority enjoys is not real pvp...and the other thing is real pvp.

 

Do you ever get tired of sitting up there on your high horse looking down on plebs?

[CTHONICON]

I'd say that REAL PVP is something that is fun, something that is perpetually striving for a good balance, and an arena that really facilitates perpetual CONFLICT as well as an "us vs. them" mentality.

 

I hate to bring it up, but one of my BEST pvp memories was back in the days of vanilla WoW. Anyone remember Southshore? And do you remember that one of the Horde keeps was right by a cross-roads area that was next to the town of Southshore. All it took was for ONE horde or alliance member to start some sh*t and all the of sudden, the entire area turned into a BATTLE ROYALE.

 

Being able to start sh*t at ANY given time and having a reasonably good chance to take down your opponent, depending on whether or not you had all your cool-downs ready to go...and having the will and determination to take down your enemy...yeah, to me that's pvp. Anyone who doesn't pvp AT ALL...well hell, I don't know what else you would do in swtor?

 

-Shaka

[Khoraji]

I'd say that REAL PVP is something that is fun, something that is perpetually striving for a good balance, and an arena that really facilitates perpetual CONFLICT as well as an "us vs. them" mentality.

 

I hate to bring it up, but one of my BEST pvp memories was back in the days of vanilla WoW. Anyone remember Southshore? And do you remember that one of the Horde keeps was right by a cross-roads area that was next to the town of Southshore. All it took was for ONE horde or alliance member to start some sh*t and all the of sudden, the entire area turned into a BATTLE ROYALE.

 

Being able to start sh*t at ANY given time and having a reasonably good chance to take down your opponent, depending on whether or not you had all your cool-downs ready to go...and having the will and determination to take down your enemy...yeah, to me that's pvp. Anyone who doesn't pvp AT ALL...well hell, I don't know what else you would do in swtor?

 

-Shaka

 

This I would say, is more of an example of real, RP-PvP. Where we roleplay being in a real battle scenario for the sake of some good old fashion fun. Where any number of things can happen that tip the balance. IE A big guild could show up from one faction and just completely own everyone using sheer numbers.

 

Fun, but I would still consider it a sort of "side mission" when compared to ranked BG/Arena/WZ style pvp.

[CTHONICON]

Well, I'd say that swtor is already making an effort with the more structured WZ approach, but that feeling of conflict and struggle, especially between the light and darkside, simply doesn't exist and I think that BW should not ignore that open world pvp potential (assuming they can figure out a way to make the HERO game engine not suk).

 

I did play a ton of BGs and Arena (made 2k rating at best, so not super-elite) and I'd have to say that overall, the BGs were way more fun than Arena. In terms of showcasing your skill and knowledge of your class and of all other classes, then that is where Arena had the spotlight. The problem I have with arenas is that it's only going to be sustainable if you have a HUGE population base, as only maybe 10% of the people who pvp at all are going to be doing that sort of thing. I did arenas, was pretty good at it but still went back to BGs because I had more fun there.

 

And I totally agree. The Southshore example more closely mirrors a PVP-RP setting, but I was actually on a PvE server the entire time I played WoW. What I think areas of conflict do, is give people who wouldn't normally think about pvp'n an opportunity to get involved and have some fun. Keep in mind that was WAY back in the day and there was no pvp gear. Just the gear you had on ya from whatever dungeons you were running.

 

Overall, unless BW figures out a way to keep the server populations moving in a positive direction, pvp is going to become more and more sparse, as it generally appeals to only a fraction of the player base.

[Alaska]

I keep hearing how the pvp in SWTOR sucks. I've played a few MMOs and always had fun with PVP. I've never been extremely hardcore, mainly because I work full time and am a full time dad of 4, but I'm no pushover either. I do feel the PVP could be better and wish there was more open world pvp, but some of the changes coming has me excited. I also keep hearing how this game or that game has better PVP... so my question is "What is real PVP to you and why?"

 

here the youtubes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0InqMQrPgsg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltQMQcScK4U

It got bounty hunting system.

Faction cross communication.

Factions merge in everywhere.

SWG got REAL PvP and Bounty Hunting System.

 

SWTOR is not Stars War its Stuns War. No bounty hunting system. No faction merge. No faction cross communication..

 

I would not be surprised fans defending SWTOR....Have Fun with Stuns Vs Stuns.

[Khoraji]

here the youtubes.

 

It got bounty hunting system.

Faction cross communication.

Factions merge in everywhere.

SWG got REAL PvP and Bounty Hunting System.

 

SWTOR is not Stars War its Stuns War. No bounty hunting system. No faction merge. No faction cross communication..

 

I would not be surprised fans defending SWTOR....Have Fun with Stuns Vs Stuns.

 

People that claim SWTOR is "Stun Wars" need to l2p. It isnt that bad, and has less CC than other very popular games.

 

Bounty hunting system is just a gimick, it was fun in a game like SWG, where the worlds were huge (I was a BH pistoleer in SWG btw) and is not "real pvp".

 

/say is cross faction

 

Real pvp has no need for RP.

[MaxLiao]

... and has less CC than other very popular games.

Yes, and those games suck (in regard to PvP) even more.

[Khoraji]

Yes, and those games suck (in regard to PvP) even more.

 

Opinions are opinions. CC is fine. Resolve works.

 

Without CC, its just a dps/heal numbers race.

[tuxiewuxie]

having played mostly played korean based mmos "real" mmo pvp to me is obviously consequential pvp which is basically only found in open world pvp. swtor doesnt have this, no xp or valor or chance of gear loss on death and i'm not sure what was the point of having "pvp" servers.

 

i understand many players here came from wow where arenas became popular e-sports with top players getting paid to do tournaments. i was fortunate to play with one of these pro 2600+ players in another game and i was hoping that the same would happen for huttball with a huttball league and tournament but whatever.

[Krashnburn]

Real PvP?

 

Starsiege: Tribes

 

None before, none since.

[KonstantinT]

Darkfall is real pvp. It's kind of brutal. Reward is you get everything they wear, maybe take their town/village away from them. SWTOR is more casual fun. There's a place and audience for both.

[Ganjavus]

I like the PVP on SW Tor. I liked it as a marauder pre 1.2 and I like it as a jugg now (melee classes and only melee for me).

The times I have the best PVP in this game are when I'm playing with a well alligned pug and we work as a team, or queue with some friends.

I'm not blaming BW for a bad PVP experience ever, apart from the queue thing, wich I hope they will be solving soon.

The bad PVP experiences were with people who don't know how to play trhe maps, but hey, they will learn eventually.

The worst experiences come from people whining about other (undergeared) players or 'this team sucks' and then quit.

So yeah, my bad experiences come from people, not game mechanics.

 

My best MMO pvp experience ever was in SW Galaxies as a Bounty Hunter, hunting for the top jedi on the server. I almost always lost. But tracking them down, setting up a trap and trying to outsmart them was the most immersive MMO PVP experience I ever had.

(edit: even thou it was after the terrible 'Combat Upgrade')

Edited May 25, 2012 by Ganjavus

[MaxLiao]

Opinions are opinions. CC is fine. Resolve works.

 

Without CC, its just a dps/heal numbers race.

CC is NOT fine, and this implementation of Resolve sucks. Now I will say that since this is the card we've been dealt with the game we have to learn to play within the structure that we've been provided. But this doesn't mean we have to like it and can't hope for improvements. (Or, in my case, cancel my sub and my wife's sub, and play until that canx date or a better game comes out.)

 

When I PvP I don't like to feel like I'm perma-disabled. Snare, Root, Stun/Mez, Pull, Knockdown, Knockback, Interrupt, etc. In huttball I feel like an effin' ping-pong ball. If you find that fun, awesome. I'm glad you're enjoying SWTOR PvP.

 

I'm actually okay with the way interrupts work in TOR, but CC's should never be longer than 2-3 seconds and should only tweak fights not define them. A CC should allow you to escape or get one (maybe two) free hit, they should never allow one to burn someone down 50%+ of their life.

 

Once you've been CC'd you shouldn't be able to be CC'd again for at least 30 seconds. Make them more tactical and meaningful. I would even remove the CC break abilities in this case. Terrain and tactics should have more to do with a fight than CC. Blocking line of sight and gaining the high ground should have more to do with the fight than multi-CC. CC should assist in nullifying or fortifying terrain and tactics, but again, fighting like a cripple is not good PvP.

 

• Darkfall PvP was good (other than the corpse looting). Especially with friendly fire - and the tactics that came from that.
  
• DAoC PvP was good (for it's time). With an update to more modern gaming, this is what I'd like to see most of all.
  
• GW2 PvP was fun, but I need more exposure before I really judge it.
  
• WAR PvP was good in the high level concept (RvR lakes and tiers), but not in implementation (again, too much CC).
  
• WoW PvP was horrid. Stun locks and healers can heal through all damage, really?
  

 

Then again it comes down to what people want in PvP. I want team-based, conquest-style - army-vs-army - PvP. Duels, warzones, arenas, gladiator pits, etc. don't interest me in the slightest.

[Mrcheezle]

The poster above says that WaR had too much CC? WaR gave players a 30sec cc immunity after just one CC.

 

To the OP, many players want to experience "open world pvp" a.k.a. "RvR" or "WvWvW" It is dynamic. Different maps, strategies, flanking, challenges, objectives, incentives, etc.

DAOC did it right. WaR was fun at times. And GW2 looks to have nearly perfected it for real pvp fans.

 

Repetitive 8v8 in the same 3 (now 4) mini maps gets old fast.

[MaxLiao]

The poster above says that WaR had too much CC? WaR gave players a 30sec cc immunity after just one CC.

When I played they were on different timers. So, while I couldn't be rooted a second time for 30 seconds, I could be KB'd, disarmed, snared, etc.

[Mrcheezle]

When I played they were on different timers. So, while I couldn't be rooted a second time for 30 seconds, I could be KB'd, disarmed, snared, etc.

 

Right. Im sorry, two 30sec cc immunity timers. One for KBs and the other for everything else.