So what killed PvP?

[Daxun]

Spot on with the expertise breakdown above.

 

People saying everyone left because of this expertise change are crazy. Yeah, some people left... the ones that had no idea what it really did. The good pvpers left and are leaving because they have no one to pvp with and/or against and no real goals in pvp.

 

If you're going to have to pvp with a small community it has to mean something. Like in SWG where you took each other's bases and such.

 

If your pvp doesn't mean anything it damn well better be fun and there better be a lot of it to hide that it's meaningless.

 

At this point, this game's pvp is meaningless and not very fun on low pop servers...

Edited May 21, 2012 by Daxun

[Whitelightr]

What killed PvP? Bioware! lol

 

Seriously in my opinion it was the lack of world pvp (until 50) while leveling, then they took it away at 50 (world pvp on Illum I mean). Now its non stop warzoned instance pvp which gets very old and repetitive.

 

Combine that with poor pvp decisions made every week and it gets ugly fast. Its almost like Bioware's PvP flunkies are trying to please the casual pvpers one week then the hardcore pvpers the next. That will never be a working model, they need to pick a solid plan and stick to it. No more damn flip-flopping.

[Ghamsar]

is it bad that I'm more inclined to come to the forums than even log on anymore?

 

I find the forums more entertaining than just sitting at fleet waiting for a que and then getting 5 vs 8

[doughboyxx]

Pvp is dead right now on most servers because there are way way way too many servers. Making things worse....Diablo 3 really dipped into already slow servers....making them ghost towns. Also...many players are now re-rolling toons on the Fatman until the transfers...making the servers seem even worse for numbers.

 

If they merged servers pvp would be fine. I personally have re-rolled on Fatman server and pop into the Bastion just to work on my guys there a bit. When they do allow transfers i can hopefully get those toons onto a "target" server.

 

Great game...just way too many servers and not much being done about it atm.

 

Also on a side note I don't understand really how these transfers are going to be effective. The goal is to cut down on servers and even out the rest. Controlled server merges seem the better option rather than putting the job in our hands to do this....

[KantaUO]

D3 killed my servers pvp

 

There use to be 1 reliable guild on IMp side quing. They are now playing d3

[wolverstreets]

Bioware not giving a damn about the low server pops is what did it.

 

I allocated time tonight to play, but I can't because no one is on. So I'm here instead, griping. And when you complain about there being no player's one of the mods gives you some cut and paste bs about a friggin Q&A they did last month talking about maybe doing character transfers in "early summer". Summer starts June 21st. So we get another month or so of the same ghost town fleets? Are you out of your damn minds?

 

I'll quit way before then. I give them 2 weeks to do mergers, or me and my guild, and the other guilds we've made ties with leaves.

[fungihoujo]

It was dying hard since 1.2- all servers went down in pops heavily, massive complaints from even servers that until then had constant pvp- D3, GW2 are/will kill it, but only because it was already a maimed horse on the side of the road.

 

The marauder crowd, the only group saying pvp is fine in 1.2- is going to keep saying that until pvp just straight up stops altogether no doubt.

 

 

It's a shame that a game that was one of the most balanced pvp mmorpgs I've played- and at launch no less- has managed to become one of the most poorly balanced pvp mmos simply due to massive knee jerk nerfs which included nerfing multiple aspects of certain classes heavily, all in the same patch- and at the same time nerfing global mechanics like healing from expertise/survivability while buffing TTK/dps from expertise massivley--- when you do such gigantic changes all at once, it shouldn't be a surprise when everyone just leaves.

 

 

It's a shame- but this game is pretty much now a pve game- thankfully, it is a good pve game, and most of the changes didn't hurt pve all that much.

[Daffduck]

The butler did it !

[Kuvox]

Honestly, many people simply got bored. I am the ONLY remaining 50 on my server from when the game began. All others have left. It's sad. 1 month ago there were still about a dozen of us. Now I'm it.

[wolverstreets]

Honestly, many people simply got bored. I am the ONLY remaining 50 on my server from when the game began. All others have left. It's sad. 1 month ago there were still about a dozen of us. Now I'm it.

 

That's terrible. It's just you? I feel for you dude. Too bad BW could give a crap less. I can't believe they let it get this bad. It should never have come to this. People were talking about merging servers a long time ago and it was ignored.

[Latelll]

Too much cc !!!!!!!!

 

Why??????

[wolfmith]

PvP was killed when they haven't provided ranked WZs in 1.2. Guilds want to queue with 8 premades so they can actually control everything within the match and casuals want to play vs other casuals and not being ***** by good players in good premades.

 

In my previous guild, when I tried to lure some people for PvP most just replied: "When we can queue with 8 people and have some objectives to achieve we will do PvP". Now in my current guild (PvP dedicated), there are only a few who still play since everyone is on Tera because they are just bored of not having a good challenge most of the times they queue, and loosing games because the other 4 players in the WZ were 13k life clueless noobs.

 

To sum it up, dead world PvP, not so fun WZ PvP.

 

Good players want challenging PvP, casuals want to have some fun and run around the WZs like clueless pigeons without being obliterated by premades. And their Resolve / CC system also irritates people.

[alcek]

What killed pvp on many servers is exactly what will kill the game in any other aspect if they don't do something.

The problem - bad engine, bad server architecture /programmers correct me if i am wrong/, which forced them to limit the population waaaaaay too low. I don't know what "full" means in swtor, probably something like 2000 people on both sides combined. Practically all servers being "light", with just a few "standart" and "heavy", means that the communities are so small, that they can't sustain themselves. On my server we are like 20-30 pvpers for rep and max 15-20 on imp side, i know all of them by name.

I was a guild GM in wow, on a server that had 6000-7000 hordes and 2000-3000 alliance, and is considered small and bad. I agree totally, because there is almost no way to recruit descent players for anything, which limited the progression guilds, the hardcore pvp guys /they couldn't find partners for serious pvp/, which lead to the well known domino effect of everybody leaving. A year and a half later, the same server on wowcensus displays... 150 hordes and 0 alliance.

If BW claims that they took WoW as a model, they would have known that a healthy server needs at least 10k per side. And that's a bare minimum.

On all that i said pile the lack of any cross-server activity, and see where it is going.

[DarthDiabolicus]

Electronic Arts killed PvP.

 

When great companies like BioWare get gobbled up by greedy corporate conglomerates like EA, bad things happen.

 

I'm sure that thanks to budget constrictions, profit margin, or whatever, the absolute cheapest and mediocre PvP development team was hired for this game.

[darthmorbous]

0 open world pvp

ZERO

[TheNinjaboy]

Nerfing classes that actually needed tweaks (buffs) in the survivability department while also buffing classes that were already very strong prior to 1.2.

 

Class balance is what decimated 1.2.

 

Even those that don't PvP were pissed and left.

Edited May 21, 2012 by TheNinjaboy

[WaywardOne]

Nerfing popular classes always causes bad feelings. The people that wanted to play non-focus guardians and were pissed at sorcs had already left. And few that leave check the monthly updates to see if its ok to return; they've found something else. So the masses that left didn't return in waves. That's why you BALANCE THE GAME AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE BEFORE RELEASE. Balance was obviously a low priority - the devs were ignoring many beta complaints about it. I liked the 1.2 changes but half of the people that play healers were not going to like it and many of the people that had learned to play in groups revolving around healers were also not going to like it. These people may have been a small percentage of the total population but 50000 angry customers is plenty to start a riot/route.

 

The cc fest is still not fun to play. It's the worst cc I've seen. Wow had a couple bad classes and moves (I don't know anyone that likes aoe knockbacks in Wow pvp); this game reeks of "get in a fight and forget about controlling your character". Getting one-shot killed by being pulled into deathtraps and stunned has got to be very high on the list of reasons people realized that BW didn't know what they were doing with pvp.

 

They've still got time to preserve a profitable customer base but they've lost a lot of customers and many many more potential customers.

Edited May 21, 2012 by WaywardOne

[Mrcheezle]

Can't kill something that was never alive to begin with. Swtor sucks bad. GW2 is were its at if you re a pvper. Edited May 21, 2012 by Mrcheezle

[VoidJustice]

It's not Bioware... It's the "general casual" gaming community getting what they want... and then realizing they don't really want what they think they do. Unfortunately... "we" keep demanding the same game none of us really want to play... OVER AND OVER AND OVER and the gaming industry keeps churning out the same stuff... WE DON'T ACTUALLY WANT...

 

Causal community demands.

 

1) Balanced classes (balance actually detracts from interesting pvp; no underdogs; no community)

2) Consentual carebear pvp (no risk; no difficulty; no feeling of accomplishment; no drama)

3) Gear (the avarice over gear, the inability to lose or have it degrade; the fact that it's personal

not a communal goal and the fact that it is THE FINAL GOAL OF ALL GAMES)

4) General difficulty EZMODE (people soloing group content... lack of dungeons and all games must allow soloing to end game)

5) I earn it... I keep it forever... and it must be the best... (ok, you got it... now what)

 

It really comes down to the fact that without hardship there can be no extacy...

Very few games get "end game right" and that's because to every win... someone

must lose... and there's no way anyone will play the "indians" anymore... we all

must be "cowboys"... btw... Im a Rebel Vigilance Jedi... "INDIAN#1" trying to help u guys

but... it's kind of like building sandcastles...

 

If EVE had any kind of "twitch" based game play... like SWTOR does... it'd pwn everyting on the market.

EVE is basically the closest to a perfect set of pvp rules in a game... with the unfortunate problem of

there's no VIDEO GAME IN THERE. (No gamey... game... just dropdown menu's and explosions)

 

EZEMODE GAMES = BORING GAMES

Edited May 21, 2012 by VoidJustice

[nDjiin]

1. Incorrect, you're understanding of expertise is incomplete and flawed.
   
2. Ironically, this would do exactly what you believe (incorrectly) was done to DPS via expertise. It would be a massive buff to healers.
   

 

Try again.

 

Couldn't agree more. At the moment a good healer is tough to take down (today I saw an operative healer dragged into the firepit on hutball only to stand there and out heal the 4.3k per second damage). If you buff them anymore then you ill have to play healer in order to be competitive...(jk but you see my point).

[MaxLiao]

It's not Bioware... It's the "general casual" gaming community getting what they want... and then realizing they don't really want what they think they do. Unfortunately... "we" keep demanding the same game none of us really want to play... OVER AND OVER AND OVER and the gaming industry keeps churning out the same stuff... WE DON'T ACTUALLY WANT...

 

Causal community demands.

 

1) Balanced classes (balance actually detracts from interesting pvp; no underdogs; no community)

2) Consentual carebear pvp (no risk; no difficulty; no feeling of accomplishment; no drama)

3) Gear (the avarice over gear, the inability to lose or have it degrade; the fact that it's personal

not a communal goal and the fact that it is THE FINAL GOAL OF ALL GAMES)

4) General difficulty EZMODE (people soloing group content... lack of dungeons and all games must allow soloing to end game)

5) I earn it... I keep it forever... and it must be the best... (ok, you got it... now what)

 

It really comes down to the fact that without hardship there can be no extacy...

Very few games get "end game right" and that's because to every win... someone

must lose... and there's no way anyone will play the "indians" anymore... we all

must be "cowboys"... btw... Im a Rebel Vigilance Jedi... "INDIAN#1" trying to help u guys

but... it's kind of like building sandcastles...

 

If EVE had any kind of "twitch" based game play... like SWTOR does... it'd pwn everyting on the market.

EVE is basically the closest to a perfect set of pvp rules in a game... with the unfortunate problem of

there's no VIDEO GAME IN THERE. (No gamey... game... just dropdown menu's and explosions)

 

EZEMODE GAMES = BORING GAMES

While I disagree on the EVE portion, I agree with everything else. You're my new best friend of the day!

[anstalt]

I'm still enjoying the game, but common things that are driving people away from the game are:

 

1) Lack of PvP endgame.

 

Only 4 warzones. The pvpers that came from WAR with me are used to tons and tons of warzones available to choose from, on a regular rotating basis. They also get rewarded for playing well personally, rather than just getting 8medals. With 4 warzones, we're all bored as hell.

 

Add to that the debacle of Ilum and we have some very bored pvpers. We're not even particularly hardcore or even good! We just enjoy killing real people, but theres too much repeatition.

 

Also, a lot of my guild came from lotro. Never thought I'd say this, but we miss the ettenmoors! Focused keep battles, npcs to balance uneven sides, roaming 1v1s, 2v2s etc. Lots of raid v raid action. It felt rubbish at the time, but it ***** all over TOR.

 

2) Lack of Endgame PvE

 

OK, so there is actually a lot of it. But there is no reason to do it. 2-4 weeks of EV/KP story mode and you completely negate the need to do flashpoints. So, you are left with 3 raids. EV/KP are easy and can be cleared quickly. EC is harder. However, (gonna get flamed), some of us actually LIKE easy raids! Due to EC being harder than KP/EV, a lot of our casual raiders just don't bother. That leaves us with less people to do EC, so less raids being run, so remaining raiders get bored. I can understand if they'd made HM and NiM harder, but making story mode harder only served to put my friends off.

 

 

Those are the main reasons. Basically, getting bored at endgame too quickly. I've been monitoring our server population over the last week, and maximum number of level 50 republics online during peak time has been 133. Thats it. We're trying to recruit so we can raid more regularly but with such a small pool of players it just isn't happening. Its becoming a downwards spiral : less people = less warzones / raids = more leaving game = less people.....

 

 

Bioware really need to pull something big out of the bag to liven up endgame.

[Stovokor]

There were many organized PvP guilds on Wound in The Force looking forward to 1.2 ranked. The population surge on 1.2 release day was dramatic. Many players I had not seen in a while specifically resub in anticipation of ranked. Alas what transpired ( ranked being pulled ) left a bitter taste ....

Kind of cemented the notion of BW incompetence after the earlier PvP debacle ( Ilum ).

 

High level players on my server never really complained about "class imbalance" and re-rolled. They knew how to adapt / use the best traits of the class to augment the team. To put into perspective there were even two exceptional Operative healers , great Scoundrel / Operative melee DPS and good gunslingers pre 1.2 (deemed "weak archtypes") ) The landscape did not really change for any of the top players, they continued to dominate into 1.2. Attrition really started increasing with poor communication & no timeline on ranked as weeks went by. Receding population started causing a snowball effect with many playing alts / GW2 beta / D3

 

Expertise was also pretty irrelevant here cause we had so many PvP guilds and tons of Battlemasters. Many of us noticed quite a few newer 50's bridge the gear gap pretty damn fast.

 

Right now many still holding out & want to PvP but the warzone pops are pretty atrocious outside of specific times. It could recover if Bioware do something fast as both factions have strong inter guild relationships and enough strong players on both sides so we still get good games. My guild itself can still count on 8 -12 to turn up daily.

Edited May 21, 2012 by Stovokor

[TUXs]

- Ilum was disastrous

- the Ilum revamp was even MORE disastrous

- expertise

- gear disparity between factions - the 1-day Ilum Valor fest has haunted this game since

- warzones are boring as ****!

- huttball favors force users in a MAJOR way. Devs refuse to believe that so **** it.

- lack of a balance mechanic for Ilum's outnumbered faction (buffs, npcs, anything!)

- Ilum turrets that bugged after using them ONCE

- control points that meant nothing

- no incentive for any open world PvP

- lack of intersecting missions to create PvP points

- developers who's creativity for PvP rewards came up with offering the same thing for a weekly reward that they do for a daily reward

 

And more...the list is long. The one thing it is NOT though, is the casual player. The casual PvP players are actually all that's left, that's why you have 2+ hour queue times. All the hardcore PvPers are long gone.

[Khoraji]

Can't kill something that was never alive to begin with. Swtor sucks bad. GW2 is were its at if you re a pvper.

 

Hard to say for a game that isnt out yet.

 

Judging by the gameplay videos...it looks pretty horrible lol.