Sages overnerfed? Can't decide.

[SLRPSJ]

Obviously his signature said "50 Marauder, Sentinel..." so he's just another bad player who likes rolling FOTM and wants more advantage for his OP faceroll class.

 

Actually he is not a fotm reroller. I play a sorc on the same server and can def vouch for his and the sorc in the videos credibility. They are both great players.

 

I would say that sorc has one of the higher skill caps because none of their skills will help you without proper use of your surroundings. if you can out maneuver your opponent you can win just about any 1v1 except against pretty much anyone except a pyro pt who can shoot 4k railshots from 30m and grapple. No kiting that, it's more of a dps race which is not in my favor.

 

Duels with maras or juggs are some of the most fun for me because of the challenge they present. Very little room for error against a wh geared warrior, but even the best can be bested.

 

Sorc is obviously not a tank-mage, never was never will be. If you get caught by two or three dps in a stun with no cc breaker, YOU WILL DIE in that stun. Literally 2 or 3 globals. Positioning is key. If you misuse force speed and knockback and you wind up with a geared melee dps on you, YOU WILL DIE unless you get help from teammates. Use your abilities correctly and prosper.

 

I feel like sorc is in a good place right now, even of melee may scale a little better. Its not faceroll, that's for sure.

 

- Genocidal

Wound in the Force

[crustie]

Crustie Sever Force is 31 points in Balance/Madness so you should clarify that you talking about DPS classes being able to kite. I guess this thread is about DPS specced sorcs so maybe I'm wrong.

 

The summary would be that a Madness/Balance Sorc/Sage, because of the extra CC they have on their 31 point top ability can kite real well. If you are not a DOT sorc/sage but a lighting/pebble sorc/sage you can kite by using the extra CC on the bubble by speccing for Backlash/Kinetic Collapse. If you are 31 point healing Sorc/Sage you can't really kite reliably because to many classe have hard coded gap closers. What you can do is become a hybrid healer by speccing only to 21 in heals and following the Lightning/Pebble sorc/sage style by pushing up to Backlash/Kinetic Collapse as well with your remaining points.

 

The only issue is for healer specs as without the 31 point AE heal you can not complete much of the PVE content. If you want to be viable in PVE and keep the AE heal then you must play with a tank guarding you in PVP. You still can't stand still though as people will attack you as a means to kill the tank. You have to still block LOS and get out of melee range as you can to be successful.

 

yes i am talking about full madness/balance, and IMHO it's the most viable pvp dps sorc build. It allows you to have more mobility with your casting... you only need to be stationary to get a wrath proc.

[Zellata]

I would say that sorc has one of the higher skill caps because none of their skills will help you without proper use of your surroundings. if you can out maneuver your opponent you can win just about any 1v1 except against pretty much anyone except a pyro pt who can shoot 4k railshots from 30m and grapple. No kiting that, it's more of a dps race which is not in my favor.

 

I like how you worded that, although "sorcs/sages are now useless" would be much shorter.

[crustie]

I like how you worded that, although "sorcs/sages are now useless" would be much shorter.

 

but they are not useless.. so your point is moot.. and if you think they are then you don't have any good sorc/sages on your server.

Edited May 12, 2012 by crustie

[SLRPSJ]

I like how you worded that, although "sorcs/sages are now useless" would be much shorter.

 

If you cannot kite, then yes I guess your sage/sorc would be very useless. Hint: you have light armor you cannot tank a fly.

[Zellata]

but they are not useless.. so your point is moot.. and if you think they are then you don't have any good sorc/sages on your server.

 

What's their role in a team? Pyro or Mara will be a better choice for dps, operative will be a better healer. Friendly pull is only useful in huttball and friendly/hostile jump will do the same trick most of the time. Mez? Opertaives have a mez too, besides they have it coupled with stealth, which is much better for cc cap. What do sorcs bring to the table? Or did you mean that they are slightly more useful than mercs now and therefore are not totally in the gutter?

[Zellata]

If you cannot kite, then yes I guess your sage/sorc would be very useless. Hint: you have light armor you cannot tank a fly.

 

Hint: Being able to kite doesn't make you very useful unless you can contribute something to your team. Another hint: replacing sorc healer with op healer benefits the team, replacing dps sorc with pyro/mara/sniper also benefits the team. As a matter of fact, replacing any sorc with any other class except for a mercenary would benefit the team.

[crustie]

What's their role in a team? Pyro or Mara will be a better choice for dps, operative will be a better healer. Friendly pull is only useful in huttball and friendly/hostile jump will do the same trick most of the time. Mez? Opertaives have a mez too, besides they have it coupled with stealth, which is much better for cc cap. What do sorcs bring to the table? Or did you mean that they are slightly more useful than mercs now and therefore are not totally in the gutter?

 

hrmm... lets see...

 

• huttball - pull, bubble, cleanse, and off heal ball carrier. and slow, root, cc, and DoT enemies.
   
  
• void - AoE doors, tab DoT the other team, and use utility and dps to peel off your healers.
   
  
• navare coast - AoE nodes, tab DoT the other team, and use utility and dps to peel off your healers.
   
  
• cival war - AoE nodes, tab DoT the other team, and use utility and dps to peel off your healers.
  

 

know your role and you are far from useless. the utility of a sorc in unmatched. especially when helping peel off healers. i tend to start getting focused before healers in some games because they cant catch the healers with me slowing and rooting them constantly. which in turn i kite them. and when the other team becomes too focused on killing me and healers the main DPS tears them apart.

 

in conclusion you bring sorcs for their utility. but you only need 1 per team, maybe 2 in an 8 man team. but we will see about the that when ranked comes.

Edited May 12, 2012 by crustie

[mikedee]

I like how you worded that, although "sorcs/sages are now useless" would be much shorter.

 

Corrected... bad sages are worthless. If your skilled, sage is still the best class in game. At least the one I am playing is.

[Zellata]

hrmm... lets see...

 

huttball - pull, bubble, cleanse, and off heal ball carrier. and slow, root, cc, and DoT enemies. pure utility in huttball.

 

void - AoE doors, tab DoT the other team, and use utility and dps to peel off your healers.

 

navare coast - AoE nodes, tab DoT the other team, and use utility and dps to peel off your healers.

 

cival war - AoE nodes, tab DoT the other team, and use utility and dps to peel off your healers.

 

know your role and you are far from useless. the utility of a sorc in unmatched. especially when helping peel off healers. i tend to start getting focused before healers in some games because they cant catch the healers with me slowing and rooting them constantly. and when the other team becomes too focused on killing me and healers the main DPS tears them apart.

 

Indeed, let's see...

 

Hutball: pull is exactly as useful as friendly leap and classes that have that leap are much less squishy and have other niceties (like guard) to bring to the table. Bubble is basically a heal, and just like all other heals, an operative is much better suited for a job. Slow/root/cc - a lot of other classes have those, in some cases much better versions. Cleanse - we can only cleanse force effects and which of those do you really want cleansed? DoTs - don't do enough damage to be of any significance, DD skills and DoTs other classes have are much better.

 

All other WZs: We used to fill the role of AoE suppression pre-1.2 and could keep enemy healers busy, but that's gone now. If you just need AoE to stop the cap, any other AOE will do the trick (i.e. sniper's one). DoT another team - for what purpose other than padding your scoreboard numbers? You are not going to kill anybody with that. Peel somebody off the healer - how? You have no burst to speak of, you have the same stun most other classes have, you can't grapple, you can't guard/taunt, and your knockback is very short range. In other words, virtually any other class will either have better means to peel someone off the healer or better burst to simply take that someone down.

 

You say you "slow and root them constantly", snipers can do that and kill their target in the process...marauders can do that and kill their target in the process...why would anybody take a sorc/sage instead of one of those classes?

[crustie]

Indeed, let's see...

 

Hutball: pull is exactly as useful as friendly leap and classes that have that leap are much less squishy and have other niceties (like guard) to bring to the table. Bubble is basically a heal, and just like all other heals, an operative is much better suited for a job. Slow/root/cc - a lot of other classes have those, in some cases much better versions. Cleanse - we can only cleanse force effects and which of those do you really want cleansed? DoTs - don't do enough damage to be of any significance, DD skills and DoTs other classes have are much better.

 

All other WZs: We used to fill the role of AoE suppression pre-1.2 and could keep enemy healers busy, but that's gone now. If you just need AoE to stop the cap, any other AOE will do the trick (i.e. sniper's one). DoT another team - for what purpose other than padding your scoreboard numbers? You are not going to kill anybody with that. Peel somebody off the healer - how? You have no burst to speak of, you have the same stun most other classes have, you can't grapple, you can't guard/taunt, and your knockback is very short range. In other words, virtually any other class will either have better means to peel someone off the healer or better burst to simply take that someone down.

 

You say you "slow and root them constantly", snipers can do that and kill their target in the process...marauders can do that and kill their target in the process...why would anybody take a sorc/sage instead of one of those classes?

 

lol.. i can't even count how many times a jug and interceded to me just to get pulled back to the fire, that i pull them out of for the score.

 

and yes bubble technically is a heal.. but it's a good 3k instant heal effectively that all sorcs can do. and if you doubt the utility of a sorc then that's your opinion.. most would rather me bring my sorc then my mara. so that tells me my ability to play my class makes me far from useless. that and there are plenty of good mara on our server not so many good sorcs. i just happen to be one of the few

 

like i tend to say about most classes. it's not the class it's the player behind that class.

Edited May 12, 2012 by crustie

[Zellata]

lol.. i can't even count how many times a jug and interceded to me just to get pulled back to the fire, that i pull them out of for the score.

 

As opposed to how many times you got dislodged from the catwalk before you could pull?

 

and yes bubble technically is a heal.. but it's a good 3k instant heal effectively that all sorcs can do. and if you doubt the utility of a sorc then that's your opinion.. most would rather me bring my sorc then my mara. so that tells me my ability to play my class makes me far from useless.

 

Your abilities as a player remain the same regardless of what class you play. So, why would people want you on a sorc instead of a mara, aside from a possibility that you don't know how to play a mara?

[LiveandDieinLA]

As opposed to how many times you got dislodged from the catwalk before you could pull?

 

 

 

Your abilities as a player remain the same regardless of what class you play. So, why would people want you on a sorc instead of a mara, aside from a possibility that you don't know how to play a mara?

 

Because Sorcs bring a lot more to the table, utility wise, then a mara, and can still compete with the mara in damage output?

[crustie]

As opposed to how many times you got dislodged from the catwalk before you could pull?

everyone gets knocked off, but if you are a smart player you can avoid most of the time. the main times it doesn't get avoided is when a jug jumps to you which roots, then pushes you off. other then that i tend to avoid most of the knock offs.

 

 

Your abilities as a player remain the same regardless of what class you play. So, why would people want you on a sorc instead of a mara, aside from a possibility that you don't know how to play a mara?

 

i tear people to shreds on my mara. but there's never a need for 75% of the team to be mara. with mara being FOTM that's what happens. so people would rather have the utility a well played sorc brings to the table.

Edited May 12, 2012 by crustie

[Armelle]

Because Sorcs bring a lot more to the table, utility wise, then a mara, and can still compete with the mara in damage output?

 

So full of it.

[crustie]

So full of it.

 

lol.. if i focus on DPS i can put out the same end number of a mara in damage. but the reason i don't is my utility is far more useful then my damage. so i usually end up with 2/3 the damage numbers but contributed a lot more to the team through my utility.

[V-Serp]

There is never a situation that you'd want a DPS Sorc over a Marauder. If I'm making a ranked team, I will just bring a Sorc healer if I want the "utility" (which is really just that instant cast whirlwind, which is not as useful with the DOT based DPS style either, but is a tad too high on the Madness/Balance tree for a dedicated healer as well), and for my other slots I'd want tank, Operative/Gunslinger Healer, or Mara or another burst based damage class for DPS. Honestly I'd rather have the Operative healing because they're more mobile, have more stuns, can stealth, and overall in warzones will give you better healing.

 

Even if you don't like Marauder, you can't deny the utility they bring depending on their spec, either for speed boost, team healing, or high damage AOE and survivability. Coordinated Rage spec smashes absolutely decimate teams in high level PVP, and Sage/Sorc has no equivalent.

 

But this game has no ranked warzones and no cross server method to play against who you want, so it's impossible to prove or disprove things right now. It's just online posturing.

 

I played in the competitive fighting game community for years, and although the internet wasn't as widespread back then as it is now, we still had so many people that would talk up a storm and when tourney time came or you'd play them in person they'd be utterly worthless. Even then it'd be annoying a bit, because it would waste everyone's time. At least the communities were small and you only had to disprove an individual once, for an MMO it's not really possible right now to prove anything, and it would just keep happening.

[Annex]

Sages are not overnerfed.

 

Damage is overbuffed.

 

Same end result but different reason.

[LancelotOC]

What's their role in a team? Pyro or Mara will be a better choice for dps, operative will be a better healer. Friendly pull is only useful in huttball and friendly/hostile jump will do the same trick most of the time. Mez? Opertaives have a mez too, besides they have it coupled with stealth, which is much better for cc cap. What do sorcs bring to the table? Or did you mean that they are slightly more useful than mercs now and therefore are not totally in the gutter?

 

What they bring to the table is that their damage goes through armor and they are ranged. You notice the damage they put out as a healer.

[Siliconrose]

What they bring to the table is that their damage goes through armor and they are ranged. You notice the damage they put out as a healer.

 

The only damage that goes through armor is Affliction (DoT), Death Field (middle of the Madness tree), Thundering Blast (top of the Lightning tree) and Creeping Terror (DoT, top of the Madness tree).

 

All the rest of Sorcerer damage is either kinetic or energy, both of which are mitigated by armor. If the healer you're attacking has Salvation, they can't have Death Field. The primary hybrid for healing hybrids with Lightning instead of Madness, so they usually won't have Death Field even if they're hybriding. The only thing a healer will have for internal damage is Affliction, which won't kill anyone.

[LoKiei]

Sage is still very powerfull, they can no longer tank damage like they could before.

[XTREDEN]

I dont think its so much that we dont hit as hard as the expertise skill and how hard other's hit us. The play style for me, balance, was never about hard hitting it was all about pressure and limitless resources and tools. Its every bit as busy as my sentinel marauder, but the sent is dishing it out while the sage is avoiding it. Another thing, which I noticed parallels my bounty hunters, as soon as I cast tele-throw/lighting (or death from above) I am instantly focused down. Problem for my sage and sorc is that's my main dps ability

 

I still love the play style, but its defined not as easy as it used to be.

[Zellata]

everyone gets knocked off, but if you are a smart player you can avoid most of the time. the main times it doesn't get avoided is when a jug jumps to you which roots, then pushes you off. other then that i tend to avoid most of the knock offs.

 

Really? How do you avoid grapple? How do you avoid force leap+force push+force leap combo? If you want somebody on the catwalk, you are better off placing a sniper there - can't be leaped to, can't be grappled off, has their own root/slow/knockback. Or put an assassin there - can sit in stealth and pop force shroud if needed. Even a mara would be a better choice - you knock them off and they leap right back to you. If you avoid stuff by running away, you are not in a position to pull and serve no purpose.

 

i tear people to shreds on my mara. but there's never a need for 75% of the team to be mara. with mara being FOTM that's what happens. so people would rather have the utility a well played sorc brings to the table.

 

Once again, what exactly do sorcs bring to the table that can't be done better by a different class?

[Lugh]

Crustie Sever Force is 31 points in Balance/Madness so you should clarify that you talking about DPS classes being able to kite. I guess this thread is about DPS specced sorcs so maybe I'm wrong.

 

The summary would be that a Madness/Balance Sorc/Sage, because of the extra CC they have on their 31 point top ability can kite real well. If you are not a DOT sorc/sage but a lighting/pebble sorc/sage you can kite by using the extra CC on the bubble by speccing for Backlash/Kinetic Collapse. If you are 31 point healing Sorc/Sage you can't really kite reliably because to many classe have hard coded gap closers. What you can do is become a hybrid healer by speccing only to 21 in heals and following the Lightning/Pebble sorc/sage style by pushing up to Backlash/Kinetic Collapse as well with your remaining points.

 

The only issue is for healer specs as without the 31 point AE heal you can not complete much of the PVE content. If you want to be viable in PVE and keep the AE heal then you must play with a tank guarding you in PVP. You still can't stand still though as people will attack you as a means to kill the tank. You have to still block LOS and get out of melee range as you can to be successful.

 

Ding. This guy gets it.

[EsteRJ]

Ding. This guy gets it.

 

I agree as well.

 

Except for his last point. Viability of your spec outside of PVP is irrelevant. Always bring the right spec for what you are doing. That's why there is respecing.