Why can't we spend our own points

[DrFaroohk]

When you level, and the game just decides "You're getting 2 points in strength, 5 points in endurance, etc..." Why? Why can't we just spend the points the way we want? So what if I want to be a Sorc with a buttload of strength or a BH with tons of force power. Those who did it wrong would be punished by their own lack of success, and those who did it well would be rewarded for their prowess.

[spoonguy]

When you level, and the game just decides "You're getting 2 points in strength, 5 points in endurance, etc..." Why? Why can't we just spend the points the way we want? So what if I want to be a Sorc with a buttload of strength or a BH with tons of force power. Those who did it wrong would be punished by their own lack of success, and those who did it well would be rewarded for their prowess.

 

Why do you need to spend them the way you want? Have you worked out how much difference this would make? Is there a good reason to be able to?

[DrFaroohk]

A lot of games let you do that and it works out just fine for me. Why not?

[Micadog]

Well if you really wanted to play a char like that you could equip armour, implants etc with the wrong stats for your class. However I can imagine the hastles created by the system you propose , there are already many cries for AC respecs, I dread to think how many would moan when they totally screwed up a char by putting points in the wrong place and found that they couldn't reverse it.

[SuperBoogly]

A lot of games let you do that and it works out just fine for me. Why not?

 

Because a certain other MMO doesn't let you do it so neither will MMO's whom copy it

[IPaq]

Because a certain other MMO doesn't let you do it so neither will MMO's whom copy it

 

Like "a certain MMO" next xpac is planning to remove talent points all together because it was found "too hard" for their customers to understand

 

Too bad my last hope was SWTOR...

 

I can only hope they wake up and start developing again.

[SuperBoogly]

Like "a certain MMO" next xpac is planning to remove talent points all together because it was found "too hard" for their customers to understand

 

Too bad my last hope was SWTOR...

 

I can only hope they wake up and start developing again.

 

Touche! I did forget about that. But heck the way things are going this game may do that too

[fallenjedi]

The real question is: if those decisions are made for us then why bother having them?

 

In traditional rpg's attributes make sense in terms of you get to control which attributes get raised allowing you to role-play off-design characters. Like in D&D you could stack your wisdom for your half-orc cleric to make him(her) a viable character.

 

In MMORPG's where decisions like that are non-existant, the purpose of attributes are kind of antiquated. Since we have to gear-up to maximize our stat values, then why not just start us off with a base of 0 or 100 and leave them alone?

 

[leaps off his soapbox]

[kitsinni]

Because a certain other MMO doesn't let you do it so neither will MMO's whom copy it

 

Man this is just starting to get to confusing for me. Every thread you see a combo of it is too much like WoW, no it just copied WoW exactly, no it sucks becuase they didn't do this the way WoW did, no this is an exact copy of WoW, I'm mad about LFG tool because it isn't cross-server like WoW, the only reason I'm staying is because they didn't screw up the LFG tool like WoW did and make it cross-server, no this is an exact WoW clone, I'm going back to WoW because of this feature and that feature, no this is a copy of WoW ... it is just tiring.

 

People here are worse than politicians!

[EssBen]

you can equip gear that has the stats you want for the same end result.

[SNCommand]

Man this is just starting to get to confusing for me. Every thread you see a combo of it is too much like WoW, no it just copied WoW exactly, no it sucks becuase they didn't do this the way WoW did, no this is an exact copy of WoW, I'm mad about LFG tool because it isn't cross-server like WoW, the only reason I'm staying is because they didn't screw up the LFG tool like WoW did and make it cross-server, no this is an exact WoW clone, I'm going back to WoW because of this feature and that feature, no this is a copy of WoW ... it is just tiring.

 

People here are worse than politicians!

*clap* *clap* *clap* *clap* *clap* *clap* *clap* *clap* *clap* *clap* *clap* *clap*

[Drudenfusz]

Even though I like to spend points on characters normally (I play a lot of pen & paper RPGs), it seems that SWTOR just don't need it, there are not enough stats that would make it interesting since bascally we have only 3 relevant stats (some might even argue that Presence is not even needed, that would left us with just two). And I see howpeople would screw it up by missing to spend points on their main stat and wondering why they get nothing done. For my spending points enjoyment, I will take GW2 (they got enough different stats, so that it is an interesting choice how to spend the points).

[dprijadi]

do we get STAT from leveling up ? or we get STAT only from gear ?

[Ponytail]

When you level, and the game just decides "You're getting 2 points in strength, 5 points in endurance, etc..." Why? Why can't we just spend the points the way we want? So what if I want to be a Sorc with a buttload of strength or a BH with tons of force power. Those who did it wrong would be punished by their own lack of success, and those who did it well would be rewarded for their prowess.

 

Because they want to avoid people doing this, being helpless as a result, and then whining that their character is underpowered.

[Styxx]

Game is balanced around a specific number for a level. Stats and gear wise.

 

They won`t turn around and say "only the smart ones will go forward", while idiots would just hit their collective heads against the invisible wall... again... and again... and again.

 

It surely would be crazy fun to have 5000 HP and 50k crits from your 3000+ main stat and itemized gear... but then imagine the crying and moaning...

 

It`s a smart idea... but it`s too "hardcore". Sadly.

[spellegren]

When you level, and the game just decides "You're getting 2 points in strength, 5 points in endurance, etc..." Why? Why can't we just spend the points the way we want? So what if I want to be a Sorc with a buttload of strength or a BH with tons of force power. Those who did it wrong would be punished by their own lack of success, and those who did it well would be rewarded for their prowess.

 

Because these companies will homogenize and simplify the genre until there are no choices left to make for your character, only the illusion of choice will be present as you are guided safely from one area of play to the next. Most MMOs have removed stat point distribution, now Blizz is starting to either simplify (WoW) or completely do away with (D3) talent trees. Expect the mindless MMO companies to follow suit.

 

It's the path that these games are taking in the name of accessibility and ease of use that is utterly destroying the genre. They'll call it "broadening the audience" or something equally idiotic and all it does is hurt the game. Sure they bring in extra initial revenue from these players on release, but ultimately the MMORPG genre is not for them and they end up leaving rather quickly (see 400k subs lost in the first quarter - almost as bad as WAR).

 

In response to the mass exodus the company makes poor decisions that not only do nothing to retain the non-MMO crowd, they drive away the core MMO audience as well (see most of 1.2). Population decline snowballs out of control, the community at large declares the game "dead" and the inexorable march toward another F2P failure continues.

 

These companies need to remember their core audience if they want to create a lasting legacy product. Unfortunately the current atmosphere in the industry is more about the bottom line then it is the gameplay experience. They already covered their development costs and turned a decent profit on initial box sales, any continued revenue is just icing in EAs eyes.

 

EDIT: And for the old argument of "they want to make sure that people don't end up gimping themselves" - decisions are supposed to have consequences, especially in games! If they were that worried about it they could have a "Spend My Stat Point For Me" option to enable - or make stat respecs available.

 

Getting the player more involved and interested in their character and the mechanics of the stats and talents is desired MMO player behavior!

Edited May 10, 2012 by spellegren

[grupurt]

Like "a certain MMO" next xpac is planning to remove talent points all together because it was found "too hard" for their customers to understand

 

Too bad my last hope was SWTOR...

 

I can only hope they wake up and start developing again.

 

You may want to look into Secret World, it has no levels, and you can develop your character as you see fit. Started beta testing it and it looks promising.

[spoonguy]

A lot of games let you do that and it works out just fine for me. Why not?

 

Well there has to be a reason you want to do it. How about they let you change the stats but make it so this has no effect on anything in game? or is there a specific thing you'd like to achieve here beyond additional complexity?

[Amby]

There's a certain subset of the MMO population who will always calculate the most effective or efficient allocation for points. For example, you could allocate your level up stat bonuses however you liked in Diablo 1 and 2, but the power gamers quickly came up with the 'best builds' that gave them the most power possible. For the vast majority of the gaming population this is probably not important; however, when designing challenging PVE combat, or when dealing with PVP scenarios, every point counts. A PVPer wouldn't waste points in a stat that is useless in that situation(like presence), but allowing a generic point allocation system would gimp non-hardcore PVPers who choose not to avoid such stats. Additionally, having such a system in an MMO would make it much easier to make 'bad decisions' which could potentially ruin your character. Nobody wants a sage who put all his points in strength, as an extreme example.

 

As an alternative to such a system, MMOs use 'talents' to give players the ability to customize their characters to some degree, but even in these systems, power gamers still come up with the 'most optimal' solutions, and the player's feeling of choice becomes much more of an illusion. Nobody wants to make a 'bad' decision, but such bad decisions inevitably happen - this is why they have talent respecs, so people who made bad talent choices can undo them.

 

You could potentially put a 'stat respec' in, but honestly, base stat allocation is not a big deal, and doesn't provide nearly the customization potential of talents.

 

Some MMOs are even moving away from traditional talent trees(like WoW is doing in MoP). Ultimately it all comes down to minimizing the potential for bad decisions yet still retaining the feeling that your character is still uniquely 'yours'.

[Styxx]

Well there has to be a reason you want to do it. How about they let you change the stats but make it so this has no effect on anything in game? or is there a specific thing you'd like to achieve here beyond additional complexity?

 

I suspect he likes "glass cannons". I do

[ManiacalShen]

I play enough pen and paper RPGs that I would be comfortable doing this in just about any game... but I don't see a point to it in swtor. There's basically no decision to be made, other than, "Do I stack Endurance or my main stat more?" As a BH, for instance, Cunning increases my tech power, but it's always better to get Aim, and Strength does jack diddly. So, I'd just stack Aim and Endurance. And any difference I make between them can be outdone by a given piece of gear. That's just extra clicks at each level for not much benefit.

 

It's not like making a Tech Specialist in the D20 rpg but stacking her Dex along with Int so she can shoot when she's not fixing things... then taking a few levels in Soldier to increase certain bonuses without sacrificing skill points per level. Or making a DnD monk with gimped Charisma so she can make certain enemies flatfooted by taking the cowl off her horribly burned face. Or giving a half-orc a certain Int score to justify talking like, "Hirk mad!"

 

There's just no comparable benefit in this game. My Cybertech doesn't rely in my Cunning, and there's no Charisma score to alter what speech options I get.

[Balrizangor]

Man this is just starting to get to confusing for me. Every thread you see a combo of it is too much like WoW, no it just copied WoW exactly, no it sucks becuase they didn't do this the way WoW did, no this is an exact copy of WoW, I'm mad about LFG tool because it isn't cross-server like WoW, the only reason I'm staying is because they didn't screw up the LFG tool like WoW did and make it cross-server, no this is an exact WoW clone, I'm going back to WoW because of this feature and that feature, no this is a copy of WoW ... it is just tiring.

 

People here are worse than politicians!

 

Think how the DEVs feel heh

[Styxx]

No, but you can sacrifice half your endu and stack it on top of your aim, on your BH. Which will raise your stats quite nicely.

 

Also, you could, ideally, get EVERY other non endu+aim skill to 0 and dump into one or the other.

[ManiacalShen]

No, but you can sacrifice half your endu and stack it on top of your aim, on your BH. Which will raise your stats quite nicely.

 

Also, you could, ideally, get EVERY other non endu+aim skill to 0 and dump into one or the other.

 

And if there's no downside to min-maxing like that, then there's basically no choice anyway. You just min-max. It's not like ignoring Cunning will make my character act stupider or be unable to use certain technologies, nor will ignoring Strength limit how large my backpack can be. And for just stacking Aim vs. Endurance... I don't think it's worth it, considering how stat-heavy gear is. But if you disagree, fair enough.

[spellegren]

There's a certain subset of the MMO population who will always calculate the most effective or efficient allocation for points. For example, you could allocate your level up stat bonuses however you liked in Diablo 1 and 2, but the power gamers quickly came up with the 'best builds' that gave them the most power possible. For the vast majority of the gaming population this is probably not important; however, when designing challenging PVE combat, or when dealing with PVP scenarios, every point counts. A PVPer wouldn't waste points in a stat that is useless in that situation(like presence), but allowing a generic point allocation system would gimp non-hardcore PVPers who choose not to avoid such stats. Additionally, having such a system in an MMO would make it much easier to make 'bad decisions' which could potentially ruin your character. Nobody wants a sage who put all his points in strength, as an extreme example.

 

As an alternative to such a system, MMOs use 'talents' to give players the ability to customize their characters to some degree, but even in these systems, power gamers still come up with the 'most optimal' solutions, and the player's feeling of choice becomes much more of an illusion. Nobody wants to make a 'bad' decision, but such bad decisions inevitably happen - this is why they have talent respecs, so people who made bad talent choices can undo them.

 

You could potentially put a 'stat respec' in, but honestly, base stat allocation is not a big deal, and doesn't provide nearly the customization potential of talents.

 

Some MMOs are even moving away from traditional talent trees(like WoW is doing in MoP). Ultimately it all comes down to minimizing the potential for bad decisions yet still retaining the feeling that your character is still uniquely 'yours'.

 

You bought that WoW dev BS apparently.

 

Devs are quick to blame players for exploiting weaknesses in the systems that they design their games around. In reality it is either weak and/or lazy design that leads to a system being capable of being abused. Rather then develop the systems to be robust and interactive, they are quarantined and and players lack that additional investment into their character. As a result a large majority of players have no idea how their stats contribute to their characters success in a particular encounter.

 

This is one of the reasons that you see so many bad players out there, everything is simply provided to them and they think that is the way it is supposed to be. They put no effort into making their character anything more than what is given to them and they really don't understand how their class works, much less classes they might be competing against. Next thing you know you have a forum full of whining players, complaining about things that they don't even understand.